good morning, it is august 29th, i'm ali velshi. peaceful protests continued overnight in kenosha, wisconsin, following the police shooting of jacob blake jr. the 29-year-old black man was shot seven times by an officer. state officials have said that blake had told police he had a knife in his car and the knife was in fact recovered from the car but they have not offered any clear information on how or whether that knife had anything to do with police attempts to detain blake or the decision to shoot him in the back seven times. a lawyer for blake's family has said that blake was not carrying a knife and that he posed no threat to police. it's just the latest in the summer of racial reckoning that featured nationwide protests following the killing of george floyd. blake's father demanding justice for his son, who though paralyzed, according to his family, was shackled to his bed in the hospital. >> once they didn't succeed killing him, well, now we got to besmirch him. so they came up with the -- some old warrants that were misdemeanor warrants but it gave them the right to be -- to have custody of his body as long as they wanted. >> blake's lawyers were unable to get the -- or were able to get the outstanding warrant vacated and this morning, blake is no longer in police custody or shackled to his hospital bed. the treatment to the younger blake is in sharp contrast to the treatment given to 17-year-old kyle rittenhouse, who has been charged with felony murder for killing two protesters as part of a shooting spree in kenosha. he waived his initial court appearance where he was scheduled for an extradition hearing in illinois to return him to washington to face trial. instead, his legal team won a postponement for 30 days. authorities say he traveled from his home in illinois to protest lines in wisconsin, armed with an ar-15. he is facing several felony charges, including intentional and reckless homicide. this video shows his actions on tuesday night in kenosha. his lawyer tells nbc news the shooting was an act of self-defense. on that same night, this video shows, rittenhouse walked right by police and pretty did nothing, after allegedly shooting three people, two of whom later died. he was not apprehended until hours later. the conversation surrounding the shooting of jacob blake jr. coinciding with the get your knee off our necks rally and march taking place in our nation's capital. the event occurred on the very same day that 57 years earlier dr. martin luther king jr. led the first march on washington. >> i have a dream. that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not the color of their skin but by the content of their character. i have a dream today. >> unfortunately, this past week has shown how far we still have to go to reach that dream. professional sports leagues boycotted and showed a unified front in support of glak once again saying, enough is enough. late last night the houston stroez and the oakland as both walked off the field after they draped a black lives matter t-shirt over home plate on jackie robinson day. that game was postponed. this as other athletes and coaches express the outrage the helplessness of their plight living as black men in a country that is not on equal footing. >> all you hear is donald trump and all of them talking about fear. we're the ones getting killed. we're the ones getting shot. we're the ones that were denied to live in certain communities. it's amazing to me why we keep loving this country and this country does not love us back. >> i think the most difficult part is to see, like, people still don't care, and for this to just continuously happen, i mean, it just shows just the hate in people's heart. >> on thursday night, donald trump didn't mention the names jacob blake or george floyd when he accepted his party's nomination for a second term in office. he repeated a divisive law and order agenda, promising crackdowns on demonstrators and mischaracterized the unrest across the country as the work of violent anarchists. eliciting this response from democratic presidential candidate, joe biden. remember, every example of violence donald trump decries has happened on his watch. under his leadership. during his presidency. nbc's shaquille brewster joins me from kenosha, wisconsin. shaq, the last time i saw you in person was in minneapolis where we were covering something similar. we know that according to his lawyer, jacob blake has been uncuffed from his hospital bed. there is now this discussion about what role, if any, the knife that he is said to have told police that he had played in this. what do you know? what's the latest? >> reporter: well, let's start with the shackles that we talked about because that's something that has caused a lot of outrage over the past two days. you heard that sound from jacob blake sr. who said one of the more distressing things that he found was when he went to visit his son in the hospital, he saw the handcuffs and the shackles around his ankles and that was something that was confirmed by the kenosha police chief here, and that is something that is now being called inappropriate by the attorney general. as we have, and as we understand it, there were warrant -- there was a warrant out for mr. blake's arrest that went out back in july. it was connected to a third-degree sexual assault charge. now, mr. blake and his attorneys are denying the allegation there, but they ended up posting bond and we saw this tweet come out from the milwaukee county sheriff's department, which we believe is the department, the outside department that was taking custody, essentially, of mr. blake as he was in the hospital, paralyzed from the waist down. they say, earlier today, mr. blake posted the bond underlying the arrest warrant, enabling his release from custody. the hospital watch has been discontinued immediately after receiving this information from kenosha authorities. and again, the top law enforcement official here in the state of wisconsin said this was something that was inappropriate, said that with all the circumstances and understanding all the information he knew, it was something that should not have been done, but it was a source of outrage as we saw it. there was also a new development that we got yesterday in terms of the -- a few more details and the names of all three officers involved. we already knew about officer sheskey, who was the one who shot mr. blake in the back seven times. officers -- investigators say when he arrived to the scene, he initially tried to tase mr. blake, unsuccessfully. we also have officer vincent arenas. he has been on the force for about a year and a half, and he also deployed his taser unsuccessfully and then officer brittany was also there. she joined the force back in january. ali, we're starting to get more and more details about the situation, but there is still some fundamental questions about what happened and what officers knew right before the shooting incident. ali? >> shaq, nobody better to have on the case than you. thank you for your excellent reporting. shaquille brewster in kenosha, wisconsin. joining me now, eddie, chair of the african-american studies department at princeton university and an msnbc distributor and nicole, pulitzer prize winning journalist with the "new york times" magazine and i like to take the opportunity with you because you're such thinkers on this issue to go a little -- get to a little higher altitude on it. nicole, the president sort of discounting the protests about injustice in this country, however they manifest, and we can have opinions on how they should manifest, but in the president's characterization, they are the work of anarchists. it discounts the underlying grievance entirely. >> yes. i think the time has long past where we stop looking for moral leadership from this president. it's not going to happen. when he talks about law and order, we know this is a racist dog whistle that has long been deployed against black americans. people are marching in the streets right now because what they want is law. they want equal protection before the law. they want accountability when agents of the state shoot and/or kill black americans. that's why people are out in the street. we keep seeing this move to quell the protests, to delegitimize the protests but not to actually get at the root of the violence that leads to protests. people are in the streets for a reason. people are in the streets because black people continue to be brutalized by police with little accountability and until you fix that problem, you're going to continue to see people marching and protesting to make black lives actually matter in country. >> eddie, the parents of these young men that get shot by police become reluctant spokespeople for this issue. jacob blake's father said yesterday at the march on washington that there are two systems of justice, one for whites and one for blacks. it's no longer an obscure point. it happened in the same city to two different people in the same week. one doesn't have to think of this as an abstraction. >> not at all. i mean, we saw this with dylann roof. we saw this -- many of us see it every day in terms of white police officers or police officers generally taking white kids back home to their parents and our kids are locked up. it's very clear, ali, that we have been dealing with this issue for generations. 90% of urban unrest has been driven by police brutality. and you know, james baldwin made a very important point and i think it's really important to reiterate it now and that is when it comes to policing in this country, we still live under the slave codes. what do we mean by that? what does he mean by that? it has something to do with policing black bodies because of white fear. limiting what black bodies can do, whether we can have our firearms, whether we can read and write, a range of things. so the idea is to represent the devaluing of black bodies and the very ways in which we police them. that's why they shackled jacob blake. that's why they shackled him, ali, they had to remind him and his parents that he was still less than. even though he had lost his legs because a white police officer shot him seven times in the back. >> nikole, the concept of violence in protest, you and i have discussed many times, i'm going to discuss more later in the show the role that violence played in the founding and building and economic success of america, but in eddie's book about james baldwin, he talks about the degree to which liberals will tolerate protests, will tolerate the noise of being told that they are beneficiaries of an unjust system, and we are up against that right now. there's only so much protest that we will all tolerate. >> yeah, depends on what you mean by the "we." so, we know that the limitations that white americans have on protests is quite small. that white americans' sensibilities about justice start to grow tired after a certain amount of protests and particularly when they start to see damage to property. we can see the way that the language around property, in some circles, i mean, i was skewered for saying that the destructing property is not the same thing as the destruction of life, and now those very same people are arguing that a 17-year-old maintaining order by killing protesters is not as problematic as the destruction of the property that he said he was guarding. so, we are at this very, i think, crucial moment where, will most white americans grow tired of this racial reckoning? will they say, now it's enough and get back to regular times? the problem is, regular times for black americans is bad, has always been bad, and will remain bad even once the national attention is moved away. and frankly, as you know, national attention had already started to move away. we haven't seen a decline in the number of police killings in this country year over year from last year, and yet, people -- the media was no longer really covering the protests in the same way until we had yet another incident of police brutality caught on tape that is so egregious that we are forced to pay attention again. >> well, i know the two of you never take your eye off it and i'm grateful for that. eddie is the chair of african-american studies at princeton university, nikole is a pulitzer prize winning journalist and one of the founders of the 1619 project, which you should read quickly before people ban it from school shelves and maybe the internet. nice to see both of you thanks for joining us. the right to peacefully protest is etched into our constitution. it's actually there. yet, almost every major protest movement in history has been met with criticism and violence. up next, why there must be a right way to protest in the united states of america. prote united stateofs america start your day with secret. secret stops sweat 3x more than ordinary antiperspirants. with secret, you're unstoppable. no sweat! try it and love it or get your money back. balanced nutrition for strength and energy. whoo-hoo! great tasting ensure with 9 grams of protein, 27 vitamins and minerals, and nutrients to support immune health. and nutrients to i'm a verizon engineer, and i'm part of the team building the most powerful 5g experience for america. it's 5g ultra wideband, and it's already available in parts of select cities. like los angeles and in new york city. and it's rolling out in cities around the country. with massive capacity, it's like an eight lane highway compared to a two lane dirt road. 25x faster than today's 4g networks. in fact, it's the fastest 5g in the world. from the network more people rely on. this is 5g built right. only on verizon. for spending a perfectly reasonable amount of time on the couch with tacos from grubhub? 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(fireworks exploding) where you can find games, news and highlights. all in one place, right on your tv. the xfinity sports zone. use your voice to search every stat and score. follow the teams you love. and, even get notifications with breaking news alerts and more. with the xfinity sports zone everybody wins. now that's simple, easy, awesome. say xfinity sports zone into your voice remote today. the first amendment of the constitution states that congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people peaceably to assemble. the right peaceably to assemble and protest has long been the subject of controversy throughout american history and protest as it stands in this country is becoming pivotal in this election. now, we aren't all in the same place on what form protests should take, what it should look like and how explicit its purpose should be. this summer's protests triggered ostensibly by the killing of george floyd but really a continuation and culmination of years-long effort against police violence against black people has been at times violent and has been met by unprovoked violence including in minneapolis where i was shot by a rubber bullet in the midst of an entirely peaceful protest and at lafayette square when the president had federal forces clear out protesters, spraying them with an irritant and beating civilians with batons. 1965, selma, alabama, protesters walking peacefully across the edmu edmund pettus bridge. 1969, new york city, police conducted a violent overnight raid at the stonewall inn. the lgbtq community faced routine harassment at the time and that event gave rise to six days of violent clashes and protests. 51 years later, the lgbtq community still faces harassment and legal discrimination. 1920, american women sought the universal right to vote. hundreds of women were violently injured over the course of the ultimately successful movement. women still make less than men do and continue to face economic disadvantage. all of these protests fought what we know and call privilege. they sought redress and i can cite example after example here and abroad that when someone comes for your privilege, you will fight them. whether they come in peace or with stones or with fuel for fires, protest is a systematic -- a reminder of systematic injustice. if it's done quitely, hopefully from afar, you can go about your business and your life and pretend it's not really about you and it's not really a something, that women don't have the vote and blacks don't enjoy the same rights and women don't earn as much and being gay comes at a cost, it might be true but don't make too much noise pointing it out. 2016, just four years ago, colin kaepernick protesting pretty brutality. cost him his career. and he remains the target of people who say he was out of lo line, doing it in the wrong place. they said that though martin luther king jr., too, who wrote in his famous letter, you deplore the demonstrations taking place, but your statement, i am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. i'm sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. 1963. it's that simple. nobody protests nothing. there's something beneath these protests that those who hold the power don't want to hear, and as long as the underlying causes are not heard, and continue, the protests grow louder and unfortunately they turn violent sometimes as the powerless struggle to find voice and be heard. i've said it before and i'll say it here again. this country was founded, not through peace but through violence. this land was forcibly taken from native americans who were forcibly relocated from their lands or killed. enslaved people were forcibly brought to america to work for free. the colonies were emancipated from british rule through a war on a government that early americans felt didn't represent their interests. much of what we enjoy today, our freedoms, are the fruits of violence. so, what is an acceptable form of protest? it's food for thought. 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organized by the reverend al ha sharpton, the family of george floyd spoke to the crowd. >> i wish george were here to see this right now. that's who i'm marching for. i'm marching for george, for breonna, for ahmaud, for jacob, for pamela turner, for michael brown, trayvon and anybody else who lost their lives. >> the rally also marked the 57th anniversary of the march on washington, one of the most important civil rights demonstrations in our history. it was august 28, 1963 that dr. martin luther king jr. delivered his iconic i have a dream speech. this jeyear's march took place amid the coronavirus pandemic. the rise of the black lives matter movement and the shooting of jacob blake in kenosha, wisconsin. reverend sharpton spoke to the family and blake's father gave an update on his son's condition. >> he's heavily, heavily sedated but the first time i got to see him was two days ago. and just to be able to touch my son -- >> it's all right. take your time. >> that was enough for me. >> friday also marked 65 years to the day that 14-year-old emmett till was brutally murdered by two white men in mississippi after being falsely accused of flirting with a white woman. his killers were later acquitted by an all-white jury. joining me now the organizer of yesterday's march on washington, the reverend al sharpton, president and founder of the national action network and host of msnbc's politics nation, a familiar face to us here. you announced this march back in june at the funeral service for george floyd. what did you want to happen, and what did happen? >> what i wanted to happen is i wanted to say to the nation that 57 years after dr. martin luther king and other civil rights leaders had marched on washington, calling for federal legislation to deal with segregation, jim crow, that we must now use that day to go back to washington to demand policing legislation on a federal level. the floyd -- the george floyd federal policing and justice act has passed the house, but it's not even brought up by mcconnell in the senate. the voting rights act, john lewis voting rights act, not brought up in the senate. so i said the timing is such that we should go to washington. i talked to martin luther king iii and he said, i'll co-convene it and we put it together to bring to washington, as his father and others had brought to washington 57 years before. we had no idea, ali, that the pandemic would still be going on, but despite that -- and we took all the precautions and making people wear face masks, giving it to them, taking temperatures, we had tens of thousands of -- out there yesterday. the numbers far exceeded our y want to see some real change, and you can't have real change without legislative change. >> so, i was talking to representative gwen moore about the policing legislation on a federal level. obviously the voting legislation, that makes a lot of sense because it has to be there but as a guy who has dealt with police violence situations for much of your career, how much does federal policing legislation do versus the changes that you have discussed, the cultural changes, the uniformity of change that needs to occur on a local level across this country? >> it does not change everything, but it is a starting point. the reason you want federal legislation is as we deal with these cases here at national action network and lawyers around the country that we work with, unless you have federal statutes, you don't even have an argument in court, and that is the problem. and if you go state by state -- we recently searched george floyd, was able to see in new york the eric garner law passed which made chokeholds illegal in the state of new york but if you go over the george washington bridge to new jersey, it's not illegal there so you need federal law to establish the legal precedent to even fight a lot of these cases. will it change the culture overnight? no, but it will stop people from walking away unaccounted for because you have a legal basis in federal law to bring them to court. >> rev, good to see you as always, thank you for the work that you do. the reverend al sharpton is the president and founder of the national action network. catch him this evening right here on msnbc. it is going to be a long day for him but with the rev, they're all long days. from the very start of this pandemic, president trump has eroded trust in america's health institutions,doctors, and experts. now he's using the one thing that could actually get us out of this mess as a political ploy. coming up next, dr. zeke emanuel explains why vaccines vould never be used that way. explains why vaccines vould never be used that way like you, my hands are everything to me. but i was diagnosed with dupuytren's contracture. and it got to the point where things i took for granted got tougher to do. thought surgery was my only option. turns out i was wrong. so when a hand specialist told me about nonsurgical treatments, it was a total game changer. like you, my hands have a lot more to do. learn more at factsonhand.com today. ladies and gentlemen, new hampshire executive order 63, please wear your masks. >> the sound of a crowd booing the mandate to wear masks at a trump event yesterday. you may recall back in march, that president trump set what was then considered a depressingly low bar for his own success in fighting the virus. trump said, keeping the death toll at 100,000 would be very good, a very good job, he said. 100,000 dead americans. that was his goal five months ago. today, more than 182,000 -- we're about to across 183,000 americans dead from covid-19. the number continues to rise by about 1,000 every day. so naturally, trump has changed his view of success to fit his own failure, saying, he has still done a very good job. every part of the president's reaction and response to covid-19 has been based on politics, and it will cost americans even more than the lives of 180,000 of its fellow citizens and counting. it is costing us the once valued trust and belief in america's health institutions, its doctors and its experts. for weeks now, the president has been hinting that a coronavirus vaccine may be ready, quote, right around election day. interesting timing. he drove it home during his acceptance speech at the rnc on thursday. >> like those brave americans before us, we are meeting this challenge. we are delivering life-saving therapies, and will produce a vaccine before the end of the year or maybe even sooner. >> trump has turned a vaccine into a political tool, and i want to be clear here. we need to trust vaccines. i trust vaccines. i get whatever vaccines i'm supposed to get. in the middle of a global pandemic of a deadly novel virus, we need to believe that when a vaccine is made available, it will be safe and effective because everybody's going to want it. the fight against this pandemic and especially the development of a vaccine is the very last thing that should be spoken of or even considered in a political context. and yet, here we are, worrying about whether a process that's supposed to be completely sealed off from political pressure might be corrupted. trump has openly called for less covid testing. this is a ludicrously bad suggestion. testing and tracing positive cases is the best way to slow the spread of coronavirus. but trump thinks fewer tests mean fewer cases and that's, of course, going to make him look better. i don't know what better looks like because 183,000 people are already dead. and up until this week, no one was doing anything to cut down on testing but this week, suddenly, the cdc, the centers for disease control, changed its testing guidance, posting on its website that people who have been exposed to someone with covid-19, quote, do not necessarily need a test. do not necessarily need a test. what planet are we on? that, of course, reversed previous advice from anyone -- that anyone exposed to covid-19 should be tested even if they are not symptomatic. there was a predictable backlash from state governments and the scientific community and the reporting emerged that the new guidance came as a as a result of, you guessed it, pressure from the top levels of the trump administration. dr. anthony fauci, perhaps the most trusted member of the white house coronavirus task force, told cnn that the task force discussed the issue while he was in surgery and could not be part of the discussion, so that happened at the cdc this week and then there's the fiasco at the fda, the food and drug administration, with trump announcing emergency approval of a blood plasma treatment on the eve of the rnc, but selling it in a way that scientists said, grossly misrepresented the data on its effectiveness. yesterday, fda commissioner dr. stephen hahn fired the agency's chief spokeswoman, emily miller, who was installed in the position by the trump white house 11 days ago and whose resume includes work for the ultra-conservative one america news cable channel and for republican senator ted cruz's campaign. this is your fda. but meanwhile, the department of health and human services which oversees the fda and is run by a trump appointee has terminated the contract of the pr consultant who advised dr. hahn to correct the misleading statement about the benefits of blood plasma. the department's chief of staff says it was, quote, 100% coincidence. this is the context in which the president is promising a coronavirus vaccine by the end of the year. joining me now, former white house health policy advisor for the obama administration, dr. zeke emanuel. he's the vice provost of global initiatives at the university of pennsylvania, he's the author of the book "which one has the world's best healthcare" and for a microminute he was my co-host of a show weekly in which we looked at the science and the medical aspects of coronavirus. zeke, good to see you again. i don't know where to start but let me start with this last part because you and i did have a very good in-depth discussion some months ago about convalescent blood plasma. it is a thing and it is helpful. but it's not the thing president trump says it is. >> well, the problem is the president has been acting like a doctor. if you look at the research in about 35,000 people, but it wasn't randomized and there was no placebo and the studies, a lot of physicians were hesitant about the studies because a lot of it could be due to what we call patient selection. different patients getting the plasma at different times because of what doctors' intuition about them. and most people did not think it was definitive and if it was positive, it still needed to be confirmed in randomized trials that are ongoing, and then the fda, it looks like they were hesitant and then president trump unleashed a twitter storm against them and they seemed to reverse their view and give it an emergency use authorization. even the researchers who published the study from mayo clinic contradicted the fda's justification for why they permitted it. they said that they were misinterpreting the data and they were selectively using the data inappropriately. so, it was totally politicized, as you point out. >> zeke, you and i, a few months ago, had a robust and long conversation with bill gates, who knows a thing or two about vaccines, and we discussed the intricacies in determining two thing. vaccines, you have to know two things, efficacy, will it work, and safety. and there should be no shortcut to that. it's a tough process because it times time because you have to test it on lots and lots of people because lots and lots of people will want this vaccine and what you don't want is secondary effects that could end up with making people really sick or killing them. and you warned in june that trump was going to political siize this process and he has. >> it's very nervewracking. we're going to test the vaccine on 30,000 people and then give it in the united states to 300 million people. ten thousand people for every one person in the trial. safety is your number one concern because the vast, vast majority of those people are going to be healthy and the last thing you want to do is make them sick. first of all, it will discredit this covid vaccine and it will discredit all vaccines, making people not able to trust them. people are very liable to believe lots of things about vaccines which aren't true. we've seen this with the claim that the vaccines cause autism, and this vaccine with covid has to be above reproach, and it has to be -- the data have to be fully transparent, and we have to have total faith in the data, and we have to be sure that politics is not what's driving a decision. but every time the fda seems to weigh in on the controversial area, it does appear at least that science is involved and more that politics and political pressure are involved and that undermines people's faith that the drugs they get and the vaccines they get are going to actually be safe and effective. >> and this is an important point, because there is a contingent of people who are anti-vaxxers out there and some of them have real reasons for it but a lot of them have overlap with a lot of conspiracy theories and the thing that would feed that is this idea that there might be a potentially unsafe vaccine. i have never questioned a doctor who has told me that i needed to get a vaccine because i believe in the system. this will be the first time in my history where i will have to call you and check with other people about, is this vaccine they're coming up with, is that really a something? is it tested properly? is it safe? that's the danger here, that the system used to have trust, and we -- by politicizing it, you take that trust away. >> ali, you're 100% right. when i served in the white house in 2009 and 2010, i was one of two emanuel brothers. my brother, rahm, was the political -- >> well, i think we've just lost zeke, but i think you were getting the point that we should not be politicizing this process. zeke is a wealth of information on this topic, and he and i have had several deep discussions about vaccines and the fact that they should be fully, fully tested, and the other problem we've got is that what we've seen lately is press releases from companies working on these vaccines announcing their success and the stock running up and then people selling that stock, you know, gaming the market. that's another thing we shouldn't be worrying about. vaccines should be determined by efficacy through clinical trials in which they are proven to be safe and effective, and that's the end of the story. that's zeke emanuel. we talk a lot. i'll have him back. he's a former white house health policy advisor for the obama administration. he's the author of the book "which country has the world's best healthcare?" collusion between a president and his favorite tv network, it is unprecedented. fox news has become a propaganda machine for a tv-obsessed commander in chief. this is normally when i would say, my colleague joins me next but that's not what's going to happen. we're going go with my friend from a network that shall not be named, brian stelter joins me next on his brand-new book,s "hoax." e next on his brand-new book,s "hoax." "hoax." "hoax." i'm a verizon engineer, and i'm part of the team building the most powerful 5g experience for america. it's 5g ultra wideband, and it's already available in parts of select cities. like los angeles and in new york city. and it's rolling out in cities around the country. with massive capacity, it's like an eight lane highway compared to a two lane dirt road. 25x faster than today's 4g networks. in fact, it's the fastest 5g in the world. from the network more people rely on. this is 5g built right. only on verizon. it's totally not the same without you. we're finally back and can't wait until you are too. universal orlando resort. buy now and get two days free at the parks. restrictions apply. news is always brought the ire of -- it's become the mouthpiece specifically for president trump, forming a codependent and symbiotic relationship with the white house. fox news relationship with the white house. tucker carlson and sean hannity dole out policy advice to trump and he acts upon it. trump dials in regularly. now we have seen this toxic loop give credence to conspiracy theories and fear mongering rhetoric. the two biggest stars are at the helm pushing the boundaries of facts to appeal to the audience of one. >> people in charge refuse to enforce the law, they stood back and watched kenosha burn. are you surprised that looting and arson looted to murder? how surprised are we that 17-year-olds had to maintain order when no one would? >> when you're overweaponizing the coronavirus you're not alone. we are focused on two major stories. we'll call out everyone who is using this virus as a political weapon against the president. sick, it's sad, but predictable. i'm sure in the end the mob and the media -- well, they will be advancing the newest theory and they'll come up with hypothetically, trump/putin, they're manufacturing the coronavirus on purpose so they can hurt innocent children and kill grandma and grandpa. >> if you had a list of problems, where would white supremacy be on the list? probably with russian. it's not a problem in america. the combined membership would be able to fit inside the college football stadium? i mean, seriously. this is a country where the average person is getting poorer and the suicide rate is spiking. white supremacy that's the problem. this is a hoax. just like the russian hoax. >> for weeks we have been warning you about the looming crisis at the southern border. now 5,000 migrants have already arrived a in the mexican border city of tijuana. and they're all demanding entry into the u.s. most under an asylum designation, but look at what they're doing. they're rushing the u.s. border. >> the constant barrage of propaganda has worked over the years as my next guest writes, "hoax." by 2009 fox news was a vitriolic virtual community and more than anything else it was a propaganda machine the like of which the united states had never seen before. the pollution of the machine showed up in poll after poll when asked if the president has been honest about the russian probe only 1% of the viewers said yes. among the fox viewers 84% said yes, he'd been truthful. that's right from the book. the alternate reality is unlike anything else in the country. often people tell me that this network is a liberal version of fox but let me be clear. there is no equivalent to fox news. our opinion hosts on this network do not lie. they do not push outrageous conspiracy theories. they do not influence policy under threat of discipline. the relationship between fox news and the trump administration is in fact unlike anything we have seen before. joining me now to discuss the new book is the anchor at that other nation, fellow weekend show host brian stelter and my old friend. >> that's right. >> brian, you have been following media and watching media for a long time. i think it's fair to say that this concept that this used to be this bied, objective news that wasn't partisan is not true. there's always been partisanship in the news. that's always been bias in the news. objectivity is not something we have succeeded with. what you're writing about is a whole new department. >> it's different. it's different. >> of how people are given information. >> it's different now because there's this pure propaganda and viewers at fox want the propaganda. the ratings for the newscast drop and the ratings for the propaganda go way up. you showed tucker carlson and sean hannity and they're so angry. every night they're telling the viewers that it seems the whole world is out to get them. that everything could be a hoax and that's had life and death consequences with the pandemic. i had to write this book because i had to go back to march and february and january and see what went wrong. how did we get to the point that you're talking about 182,000 dead americans, it all started in january and february and that's what the book is saul about. about this terrible feedback loop between trump and fox. >> you write in the book trump insisted that his july 25th call to the ukrainian president was perfect. as geraldo rivera said you'll be called on, sean, in ways you have not been tested yet. you'll be strong, you'll be a pillar of strength for the president. he'll need you. that's -- i mean, that's crazy stuff. that is stuff that sort of says we're not here to hold power to account whomever that power is we're here with the political agenda. >> and it worked. i think everyone always said if nixon had fox news would he have resigned? the president was acquitted in part thanks to these fox news fan club and defenders. geraldo is hitting on something really intense which is this relationship between hannity and trump. it mostly happens behind the scenes. it is unlike anything in modern media history. no one from msnbc or cnn or abc or nbc was calling up the president late at i'm not giving advice to barack obama. this is new territory and it's dangerous. not like the president is getting helpful information from hannity. he is getting misinformed and spreading it to the rest of us. >> shep smith has left the network and is joining cnbc now. you talked about the tension between some of the opinion hosts and shep smith and bret baier and how do they survive in that environment? >> i'm excited to see shep on cnbc because it's a more comfortable -- it's a more natural setting for him now. he didn't belong at fox news because he was being squeezed out by -- >> no kidding. i lost another feed and that isn't because he happens to work for another channel that has a show in morning. brian is an old friend of mine and the author of "hoax, donald trump and fox news and the dangerous distortion of the truth." you can catch him on the other cable news channel i used to work for. he's the anchor of "reliable sources" and the chief media correspondent at cnn. thank you for watching us. "a.m. joy" is up next. zerlina maxwell is joined by a number of interesting guests right after this. your gums bleu brush you may have gingivitis. and the clock could be ticking towards bad breath, receding gums and possibly tooth loss. help turn back the clock on gingivitis with parodontax. leave bleeding gums behind. parodontax. they're going to be paying for this for a long time. they will, but with accident forgiveness allstate won't raise your rates just because of an accident, even if it's your fault. cut! sonny. was that good? line! the desert never lies. isn't that what i said? no you were talking about allstate and insurance. i just... when i... let's try again. everybody back to one. accident forgiveness from allstate. click or call for a quote today. accident forgiveness from allstate. over time, you go noseblind to the odors in your home. (background music) but others smell this... (upbeat music) that's why febreze plug has two alternating scents and eliminate odors for 1200 hours. ♪breathe happy febreze... ♪la la la la la. i want football back. these are young, strong guys they're not going to be affected by the virus. if you look at it, it's generally older people. older people that have heart conditions, that have diabetes. i have been calling for football to be back including the big ten. big ten, get with it. open up your season, big ten. >> good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." i'm zerlina maxwell. we have developing news. there are new exexclusive new audio clips from mary trump the niece of donald trump talking to donald trump's