Transcripts For MSNBCW The Rachel Maddow Show 20200508

The middle of u. S. States. As far as the number of cases, and deaths. But there are case numbers and death numbers that are both going up. I should also say though, that what we know about what is happening in arizona in terms of cases is almost certainly a significant undercount. Because arizonas testing rate ranks 51st in the nation. 51st. Because they are behind all of the other 49 states, and theyre behind washington, d. C. , as well. Thats pretty good data from the Kaiser Family foundation. So arizonas testing is absolutely terrible and they know theyve got a pretty big problem on their hands so last week, arizonas republican governor doug ducey announced we extend arizonas stayathome order until at least mid may. He said he was following the data. And that makes sense. Looking at the data that weve gotten. And as we reported last night, we know that the data the governor was relying on included a very specific, arizonaspecific model, that was created at the states request, by experts at two of arizonas top universities. And this model, the most robust arizonaspecific coronavirus modeling project anywhere, it found that the only way the state could avoid an exponential growth in cases was to maintain the current stay at home restrictions until at least the end of may. The end of may. So last week, arizonas governor, looking at that data, told the people of the state, hey, we got to extend the stayathome order, were not out of the woods yet. But then, this week, surprise. As the president announced a planned visit to arizona, arizonas governor, doug ducey, suddenly did a uie, and decided that the state wouldnt have to keep in place its stayathome order anymore, he was going to accelerate the planned opening, hair salons and barber shops go for it, making the sudden change on monday and perhaps it did have something to do with the pending visit from the president and enkoushlging governors to open up right now everybody is fine now. In any event, governor duceys administration said that in making this new decision, and changing their mind, they were relying on the new model. A different model. From the one they had worked with the universities on. They said for the new decision, they were relying on a model that had been provided to the state by the Trump Administration. And that model said everything would be fine if the governor lifted the stayathome order right away. No reason to wait. And this new model that told the governor, go ahead and open everything up, its a secret. Nobody is allowed to see it. We just know what the Governors Administration has said. Just hours after governor ducey announced the new accelerated reopening based on those apparently reportedly rosy projections from the federal model thats a secret and were not allowed to look at, interestingly, he went beyond just stopping looking at the arizonaspecific model that had been made by the experts and scientists at universities, universities in his state, he went beyond not just looking at their work anymore and he actually ordered those modeling experts at those universities in arizona, that they should stop their work. He told them to stop down. Not just were relying on a different model now but we order you to stop your modeling work. We dont want your model to exist anymore. And governor ducey told the universities that the state would rescind its agreement to share data with them, and they wanted to claw back the data they had already given them. All the data sets we gave you to do your modeling, in terms of the epidemic, for the state of arizona, we want that back, and you have to stop working. Huh . I mean as i said last night, i dont know whats weirder about this story, the fact that the state of arizona ordered the expert Modeling Team to just stop, while the state is obviously still very much in the middle of this epidemic, or the fact that they are apparently now relying on a secret model from the Trump Administration that nobody is allowed to see but trust us, it says ha what were doing is exactly the right thing scientifically. You just cant check us. Well is, since this has come to pass over the course of this week, a number of officials have raised concerns about this decision. Including arizonas democratic u. S. Senator sinema and the ruben gallego, the congressman went so far as to tell the universities that they should ignore the governors order and they should keep working on the modeling for the state. That was the story as of last night. We reported it here, last night, we talked to a former head of the state Health Department of arizona, who called this decision astonishing and walked us through how it had happened and how crazy it was. Update. The Ducey Administration today changed their minds. The arizona Health Department announcing today, quote, we are pleased to announce an Ongoing Partnership to continue providing models. The state now says they were simply trying to be understanding of all of the demands on these researchers time. They didnt want to be a burden by asking them to continue working on this model for the state. But quote, since then, meaning since yesterday, the universities and team members have expressed a willingness to continue doing this work. Yeah. Yeah. Who knew they were willing to continue doing this work . In the middle of the epidemic . I questions we should have asked them before we told them stand down, stop working. But now theyre going to continue working on this. Hooray. So that weird situation in arizona appears to be resolved today. It appears to be one of those situations that just couldnt survive in the sunlight. The Ducey Administration tried to make this change in the dark. Enough people noticed and squawked about it, that it sort of went away in the light of day. You would be surprised at the number of bad decisions that can be reversed that way. There is still the matter of this secret supposed federal model that nobody can see. It still has not been released as of today, but like i said, the problem a little bit solved at least. The University Model from experts in arizona, will apparently continue their modeling work with the state. We will see if that modeling work affects the ongoing decisions of governor ducey with what he says about opening up given that University Researchers say that opening up before the end of may will put arizona back into exponential growth in terms of their epidemic. But that is just one development out of the million today. It has been that kind of day. There are heartening stories and disheartening stories. But so much stuff happened today, it is one of those days where i think it is sort of hard to keep up with the news. Arizona, for example, is just one of 30 states that have either started some degree of reopening, or they will start reopening soon. The New York Times reports today, in a serious report that we will all look back on and shake our heads at, the New York Times reports today that most of states that are reopening are not only meeting the ostensible requirements issued by the white house but theyre going in the opposite direction, quote, in half of the states easing restriction, case counts are trending upward, positive test results are rising or both. And virtually none of the states are reopening have anywhere near the minimum rate of testing that experts say is required to reopen safely. As of this evening, there are over 1 1 4 million coronavirus confirmed cases in the United States and over 76,000 americans have died. And our numbers continue to go up and up and up. That appears to be completely dislocated from what our political decisions in places with rising epidemics, to open up anyway, and pretend like things are already getting better. I mean to have lost 76,000 americans already, it is just a staggering, staggering number. And of course, it is likely a significant undercount of the deaths because of the thousands of people who have likely died from covid19 who were never tested and therefore not officially counted, because our testing access in this country continues to be severely restricted. I mean everybody is looking at this, from a scientific or basic third grade math understanding, and knows that the official death count in the United States is astronomical and also probably too low. Unless you were president donald trump, if you are president donald trump, apparently you think the coronavirus death toll in the United States is too high. Its fake news. And really the numbers are much smaller. Axios is reporting now that President Trump has quote complained to advisers about the way coronavirus deaths are being calculated, suggesting that the real numbers are actually lower, the number of his senior aides share this view, according to sources with direct knowledge. A Senior Administration official says he expects the president to begin publicly questioning the death toll as it closes in on his predictions for the final death count, and damages him politically. Apparently, the white house thinks that hospitals are running some sort of grift where theyre overreporting coronavirus cases and making up fake coronavirus patients in order to cash in on sweet sweet medicare money for treating coronavirus patients. Apparently were supposed to prepare for the president to start blaming american hospitals for inventing this epidemic, that this many people arent really dying, if it wasnt for the greedy hospitals, wed see the real much lower death counts. While thats happening, at the political level, the virus is hitting close to home for the president , literally. From nbc news today, quote, one of president Donald Trumps personal valets who works in the white house, works in the west wing, serving the president his meals, among other duties, has tested positive for the coronavirus. The closest the virus is known to have come to the president per the white house official. Staffers who come into close contact with the president have said they are tested regularly for coronavirus but a few aides have been seen wear, but few aides have been seen Wearing Masks around the west wing. After learning one of his valets was infected, trump became lava level mad at his staff and said he doesnt feel they are doing all he had can to protect him from the virus. Now it turns out it is really hard to work to contain this virus. I mean whatever the president and the white house or the republican governors might wish or want to be true about this epidemic, the virus is the virus, and the science is the science, i mean you can deny that it is as bad as everybody says, and you can deny that it is really a risk and it is safe to open everything back up, but then somebody in the white house, who is probably been close to the president to touch him, a lot, because hes his valet, then that guy turns out to have it, scary, right . Scary to be in that much of a bulk as you thought you were to not be in that much of a bubble as you thought you were. And the guidelines to reopen the economy, it turns out that is a hard thing. You cant just wave a magic wand and say it is over and we want it to be over and therefore it is over and the economy will come right back to where it should be. The reason the mi is shut down is not because of some sort of blue state plot. Its because there is a virus that has killed 75,000 americans and infected more than a million of us and isnt slowing down at all and the only way we can slow it down, because we dont have a treatment and we dont have a vaccine, is to keep americans apart from each other. And that must be very frustrating, but thats the science here. That said, the white house is apparently deciding that they are going to stand against that science as well. The Associated Press saying today that step by step detailed guidance created by experts by the cdc to advice governments on how and when to open various parts of their economies, that cdc guide was shelled by the white house. Scientists say they were carefully researching on the slow way to reopen things safely, that document they were told would never see the light of day. No time for all of that hard work. Certainly this white house is not going to tell states and localities to do all of that work and be careful and deliberate about it. They want you to just open up. Just pretend this isnt a big deal. We will have more on that story, including the reporter who broke that story later on in the show tonight. There was more today. I mean there was Vice President mike pence, at an alexandria, virginia, nursing home today, holding a big celebratory, notice how he is not wearing gloves or a mask. Holding a big celebratory throw the paper towels style photo op for the federal governments first shipment of personal protective equipment, to a single nursing home in america. Why is he working with that guy and not wearing a mask . Not wearing gloves . Where is that hand going after you have been touching without gloves on. We are 20,000 americans dead in Nursing Homes into this. 20,000 americans have died in Nursing Homes already. The Trump Administration is really excited to brag that they are doing something for the Nursing Homes, for the first time, today, now that 20,000 americans are already dead. They say this is one of over, one of thousands of deliveries theyre going to make to Nursing Homes between now and the end of june, no rush, but they didnt start doing anything until now. And thats what theyre bragging about. Also, i will tell you, if this administration is capable of organizing and carrying out some sort of systematic and actually helpful delivery of necessary supplies of ppe to every nursing home in this country, i will be surprised, and ill tell you why. Next to mike pence today, among all of the other people he touched and spoke face to face to without march, was sema verna, you can see in the frame with him, she runs the part of the Trump Administration that oversees Nursing Homes and that part of the Trump Administration has been telling us now for two and a half weeks that theyre just about to start releasing data on coronavirus deaths and cases in Nursing Homes around the country. That would be really helpful information to have, because some governors, some states, havent been releasing that information. Which is cruel to the people who live in those homes, and to the people who have family members in those homes and it is cruel and self defeating for the communities in which those homes are located, because when their there are outbreaks in specific nursing home, the communities in which those homes are located need to know it, because nursing home outbreaks wont stay there. They will become Community Outbreaks because those homes just like prisons, just like meat packing plants, just like all of these other facilities that are housing huge outbreaks, theyre porous and they create outbreaks where they are located in the community. So if in fact, the agency is going to start releasing facility by facility information, about where there are nursing home outbreaks in this country, thats great, because then a lot of states, you cant get that information. The federal government is going to do it. Thats great. Theyve been telling us for two and a half weeks that its coming soon. Its almost, its almost, weve been checking in with them regularly, every few days, they keep telling us its about to come out, its about to come out and today they told us that data will start to be released maybe at the end of may. So i guess well just wait then. Thats also the time frame they have announced for when theyre going to have their Nursing Homes task force meet for the first time. Maybe they will convene around the end of may. Busy till then. Thats just the kind of day it has been. And the news has been fast and furious today. From the judicial branch, and from the Justice Department today as well. We got a big ruling from the Supreme Court today. That may finally put to rest the great new jersey bridgegate scandal of 2013, which aged me approximately 17 years. Seems also quite by current, quaint by current standards the way a staffer and political appointee and Governor Chris Christies Administration died it was time for some plastic problems in fort lee new jersey in order to get back at that mayor for not endorsing Chris Christie in the bid for governor, and the christie staffer kelly who wrote the infamous email and baroni, another trustee, were convicted of charges of fraud and conspiracy by cooking up this plot by jamming, by changing lanes of the George Washington bridge, the busiest Passenger Car bridge. Bridget kelly was facing a year and a half in prison and bill baroni facing two and a half years but in an unanimous decision, the Supreme Court rejected the entire premise and threw the entire case out and saying yes there was evidence of deception and corruption and abuse of power but the fraud statute does not criminalize all such conduct. And so our National Hunt for what counts as punishable criminal corruption in Public Service continues. We are starting to need brighter and brighter lights to find it. And that was not the only news today. Just of the Supreme Court. The Trump Administration asked the Supreme Court today if they could please not hand over the grand jury material from the Robert Mueller investigation. A lower court had said that the Trump Administration has to hand that material over to congress. The Justice Department has to hand over that material, unless the Supreme Court steps in, the deadline for turning over that grand jury material, to the house, is monday, and ever since Robert Mueller finished his investigation, the Justice Department has refused to hand over the grand jury material from that investigation, if the Supreme Court agres to step in and hear the Trump Administrations case it is possible they could hear the case, and maybe even rule on it, if they were persuaded to act super quickly, before the november election. So the Trump Administration weighing in, and asking the Supreme Court to please block this stuff from coming out, i sort of felt like that was going to be the biggest noncoronavirus virus of the day but that was not the only news we got today involving the mueller investigation. We also got the stunning news today about the case against general Michael Flynn. Flynn of course was the president s First National security adviser. He lasted precisely 24 days in the job of National Security adviser. He was let go in february, 2017. Just a month, actually less than a month after trump was nog rated after it emerged that general flynn had lize about his contacts with the russian government during during the transition. He had lied to, reportedly other Administration Officials but more importantly than that, he had lied to the fbi. Specifically he lied about discussing with the russians the possible lifting of sanctions that had been recently im posed on russia by the obama administration. As retribution for russia meddling in the 2016 election, to support President Trump. Flynn was also part of the reason that President Trump later fired fbi director james comey. Comey refused the president s entreaties to end the investigation into flynn. He refused to, in the president s words, let it go, the president responded by firing comey, comeys firing led to the appointment of Robert Mueller, a special counsel for the russia investigation, flynn was the first senior white house official to plead guilty, in late 2017, as part of that investigation, for lying to the fbi about his contacts with the russian government. I mean you can see it right there in his plea agreement along with his signature. I am pleading guilty, because i am in fact, guilty of the offense identified iis agreement. Signed Lieutenant General Michael Flynn. Flynn also pled guilty a second time, outloud, in court, in front of a federal judge, at his initial sentencing hearing. The judge said, lets just make this clear, lets be clear here, quote, you are guilty of this offense . Flynn responded, yes, your honor. But now, apparently, never mind. Never mind that whole thing. A new team of lawyers for mike flynn has been on a months Long Campaign to erase the fact that he pled guilty, and to fight the charges against him, accusing the fbi of acting in a bad faith effort to trap him for some sort of unstated political reason, today they won. Today, attorney general william barr, and the Justice Department, said they would entirely drop the criminal case against mike flynn. Never mind that flynn has already pled guilty to lying to investigators. Never mind, that in addition to that, he admitted to other crimes, as part of his plea agreement, he admitted to multiple other crimes, for which he was not charged, because he agreed to this part of the plea agreement but the Justice Department has decided to let it all go. This development was both expected and unexpected. A lot of people had been expecting and waiting for the president to maybe pardon mike flynn. But now he doesnt have to bother with that, because effectively, bill barrs done the same thing. The first hint something was about to come happened about 15 minutes ahead of the news about dropping the flynn prosecution when the lead government prosecutor in the case, a veteran of the mueller investigation, abruptly informed the judge in flynns case, in a onesentence filing, that he was quitting that case. If you feel like thats reminding you of something and giving you deja vu, it is because a similar thing happened in the roger stone case. Remember all four federal prosecutors working on the roger stone prosecution quit that case in protest after attorney general bill barr stepped into the case and overruled the request that roger stone get a sentence of seven to nine years. In this case, it is a different matter but it is the same active protest by a prosecutor. At least as far as we can tell. I mean this is different than the stone case. For one thing roger stone never pled guilty. But by dropping this case against mike flynn, the Justice Department is essentially asking us to pretend his whole prosecution and his whole guilty plea never happened. Even though his guilty plea is literally right there for all of us to see. Just i mean not to put a finer point on it but quote i am pleading guilty because i am in fact guilty. So the Justice Department deciding no, no, no, youre not guilty, you didnt know what you were saying, lets undo all of this, the prosecutor quitting, apparently in protest. I have questions about this. I have a bunch of questions about this. I mean number one, is this flynn prosecutor, is he quitting just this case, or is it possible that he is quitting the Justice Department entirely. If he is quitting the Justice Department entirely, would that free him up to explain to the American Public what happened here . In terms of the attorney general, and upper levels of the Justice Department, wading in to a criminal prosecution, to pursue an outcome that the president favored and had publicly advocated for. Could he talk about that if he is in fact leaving the Justice Department . Second, this decision by the government to drop a case came in the form of a request to the judge who is overseeing flynns case. Must the judge in this case, i mean, we got the same judge who twice accepted Michael Flynns guilty pleas, i mean must the judge now agree to toss the case . Because the Justice Department is saying they want to . Can the judge refuse to do that . Does very does very that option . Third, does it matter that Michael Flynn admitted to other crimes as part of his guilty flee. For example, in addition to lying to federal agents about his discussion discussions with the russian government, flynn also admitted to as failing to register as a Foreign Agent of turkey during the transition. He was literally the incoming National Security advisers and he was on the payroll of a Foreign Government and he lied about that too and he admitted it. Does that matter now . And, finally, perhaps most important of all, going forward, what does this decision by the Justice Department today mean for a little thing we used to call the rule of law . I have a whole bunch more questions about this. But i would like to start there. I have just the person who may help us answer those questions, next. Stay with us. Those questions, next stay with us for People Living with hiv, keep being you. And ask your doctor about biktarvy. Biktarvy is a complete, onepill, onceaday treatment used for hiv in certain adults. Its not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights hiv to help you get to and stay undetectable. Thats when the amount of virus is so low it cannot be measured by a lab test. 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Visit xfinity. Com moving today. Attorney general william barr and the Justice Department today apparently decided they dont care what anyone thinks, they died the whole Banana Republic criticism just doesnt sting them anymore like it used to. Today, they just finally went ahead and dropped the prosecution of trump National Security adviser mike flynn who already pled guilty twice lying to investigators about secret skplungss with the russian government during the transition. The lead prosecutor on the case, brandon van grok, quitting the case before it all went down and quitting some other cases at ut Justice Department, too. I have questions. Joining us now is bash mcquade, former u. S. Attorney in the Eastern District of michigan, and someone who i miss seeing on the regular. Barb, i really appreciate you being here. Thanks for your time. You bet, rachel. Glad to join you. Let me ask you first about mr. Van grok. He is an espionage prosecutor, hand picked early on for muellers team, lead prosecutor in the flynn case, and moments before this decision came down, withdraws from sflins case and withdraws from several other cases. It seems like he has acted in protest of what the Justice Department decided to do here. Would you expect that he would be able to talk publicly about what happened, if this was an act of protest . Probably not. I dont know what his reason is, and as you said, im not sure whether that means he is resigning from the department of justice or only withdrawing from these cases. But i would imagine that either way, the white house would seek to block any sort of testimony if he were to be subpoenaed, would invoke privilege, if he were to attempt to speak publicly about this, and so my guess is we will not hear from him publicly about what happened here. So even hypothetically if this was a super egregious intervention in the Justice Department process, the prosecutorial process and the attorney general says he is the president s friend and we have a rule now that you cant prosecute the president s friends, that could be blocked from doing interviews or explaining to anyone that that had happened . Well, there is an exception for crime and fraud, and so if that were the case, then certainly, he could come forward and talk about that. So i suppose if hes out of department of justice, theres less leverage over him about what he can say. But just as weve seen with efforts by the white house to block don mcgahn from testifying and all of the other things i would imagine we would have a fight about it before we could hear from him. What about the judge in this case . Judge sullivan is one of those judges everybody says has an independent streak which is a diplomatic way of saying he is an unpredictable guy and doesnt count out anybody, is he bound by the Justice Departments request . We are so far along and this endlessly delayed sentencing phase but it haz otherwise gone through years now, in his courtroom, the Justice Department saying they want to drop the clanchs . Is that it . Or is there any discretion in terms of what happens next . Actually, this is the part where i think i have the most hope on what they will do at the department of justice. When the just at this time tis department moves to dismiss an indictment or information as it was in this case, it must be by leave of court which means that the judge must bless it. The reason for that is to prevent the prosecutors from jerking someone around by filing charges and dismissing them and filing them again, but the judge could, at the very least, call a hearing, to make the prosecutors come in and explain why they are dismissing the case here, and i think he could be very well inclined to do that, because the reason that the Justice Department gave for dismissing this is that there was no predication for the case, and that the lilaced materiality. Judge sullivan himself found that this lie was material, in a motion filed by flynns lawyer last summer seeking to dismiss the case based on an alleged brady violation, the judge found no violation, and also found that this lie was in fact, material. So having already made that finding, he may disagree with the reasoning behind this, and call the Justice Department in to explain itself, on the record. Let me ask you one last piece of this, barb, that i just dont understand. As part of flynns plea agreement, as far as ive read this, as a nonlawyer, it seemed to me that he was admitting to having committed other crimes. And he was agreeing with his, with the government, that they wouldnt charge him for those things, but he did have to lay out what he had done, particularly not registering as a Foreign Agent when he was working at as the National Security adviser to the president elect of the United States. It is not an insignificant crime. What happens to those things that he admitted to . And this is another glimmer of hope, rachel, because the counts, and the information were solely related to these 1001 violations, false statements to the fbi, relating to the energy that he had with the fbi about his conversations with the russian ambassador, even though he admitted, it is referred to as relevant conduct, the parties agree to it, they agree he will be charged for it but the courts are allowed to consider it in imposing sentence, so in terms of this dismissal, with prejudice, it relates only to those counts that were filed, and so as long as the statute of limitations hasnt run, a new Justice Department could refile those charges against Michael Flynn, and the statute wont run until five years after the date the crime was committed, march of 2017, which would give the Justice Department until march of 22 to file those charges. Wow. And of course, they would have sort of a leg up in bringing any such prosecution, given that he admitted to all of the crimes in writing, and signed his name to them, which is a helpful thing if youre a prosecutor. Even if i can win that case. Bar bra mcquade, former District Attorney in the Eastern District of michigan, thanks for helping us today. Thanks for having me. Much more ahead tonight, stay with us. Ahead tonight, stay with us ® professional confident financial plans, calming financial plans, complete financial plans. Theyre all possible with a cfp® professional. Find yours at letsmakeaplan. Org. Theyre all possible with a cfp® professional. Frustrated that clean clothes you want to wear always seem to need an iron . Next time try bounce wrinkle guard dryer sheets. Just toss it in the dryer to bounce out wrinkles. We dried these shorts with bounce wrinkle guard, and a pair without. The bounce wrinkle guard shorts have fewer wrinkles and static, and more softness. 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Every day, the New York Times updates its chart on where the coronavirus outbreak is worse now in the country. It shows the places in the country where the new cases per capita are the worst. Stuck at the top of the list there now for a while now is sioux city iowa. Sioux city iowa, geographically is right at the point where iowa and nebraska and south dakota come together, it is a little tristate point. You might remember our coverage from a few days ago about the mayors from all of the municipalities in and around sioux city, getting together, to put out a joint statement, asking all the governors from those three states, and the companies that were in meat packing plants around sioux city, asking all of them to please start telling the nay mayors what is going on, please start disclosing coronavirus case numbers and test results from specific Meat Processing plants. Because the mayors of all of these communities around sioux city were finding that the hospitals were filling up with coronavirus patients and their case numbers, as counties and as towns were going up and up and up and they needed to know where these outbreaks were coming from. One of the places where the huge numbers in the sioux city area appear to be coming from, is from this tyson Meat Processing plant on the nebraska side of the river, but still right there in the sioux city area, a place called dakota city, adakota county nebraska. That tyson plant is a really big one. 4300 workers. That plant in dakota city has not been saying how many of those 4300 workers are positive. But everybody could tell something was wrong there. In part because they were workers, workers kept dying at that plant. The plant finally closed. Tyson finally decided to close it. At least temporarily last week. And they did have all of the 4300 workers at that plant tested. The plant still wouldnt say what the results were though. Even after the testing was completed, they still wont say even now, but we know at least something about what the test results were there, because a tipster alerted the local paper, the sioux city journal, that the number of workers that tested positive, at that dakota city plant, was 669. 669 people who work at that one plant, according to a source, who shared that number, with the local paper. That officially, the plants not saying, and officially who knows, some good luck to the Health Public Health Officials and local officials of all kinds around dakota city and sioux city in trying to plan to handle the considerable outbreak, right . Good luck trying to plan for that. You could use these testing numbers that could be gleaned from an anonymous source to the local paper. Thats how youre going to get your information. So that dakota city nebraska plant did close for a few days, they reopened today, god bless them, we know from a tipster that nearly 700 people who work there have already contracted the virus there, good luck with the reopening of that place. But all week long this week, i have been waiting to get some additional data, maybe some more official data, out of nebraska, ive been expecting it specifically enough that i had a postin note on my desk all week that says next spike, question mark, with the names of these two towns in nebraska, madison, nebraska, and schuyler nebraska. Small towns but they have big meat plants. Madison has a tyson plant with 1200 people and schuyler has a cargo plant with 2200 people at. At the tyson plant in madison as of last week, the county said 96 known cases among people who work at that plant which is a lot. At the cargill plant in schuyler we have no idea how many cases the company has. They wont say. There does appear to be something going on there. The omaha herald, the people who work at that cargill plant where they live, the counties around it are suddenly rocketing up in their case load, Colfax County for example on april 23rd, they had eight cases, all of a sudden, as of this past weekend, they now have 222 cases. They went from eight cases to 222 cases, in two weeks. Over that same period, Platte County went from 13 cases, to 179 cases. In two weeks. And the gigantic cargill plant, where people in those counties work, well, theyre not saying whether theyve got any cases at all. But this is starting to feel like it is not hard to figure out, given that is the major employer and given it is a Meat Processing plant and given that we know what is going on at Meat Processing plants all over the country. Ive had this posted on my desk this week. Next spike . And ive been checking the nebraska news all week because the tyson plant and the cargill plant, they both traeshl shut do, traeshl shut down over the past few days which is a rare thing. And we have been expecting all week from one of the two plant, from the tyson plant, we have been expecting information on test results, from tests of all of the employees there, while theyre shut down, before they reopen and try to put their work force back to work. This is from the omaha world herald this week. Quote, most results are expected back wednesday or thursday. In the meantime, the plant will be deepcleaned, whatever that means, and sanitized. So test results in nebraska, from these two big Meat Processing plants, where it looks like there is a real problem, but we havent had real numbers, those test results expected back wednesday, or thursday. Yesterday or today. So where are those results . I mean nebraska has already got some of the worst outbreaks in the country. And theyve been keeping most of their plants open. Even as they have been getting mounting outbreaks at these plants. Even in the face of Public Health officials telling the governor to please close down some of these plants. Pro publica has a great report on that on local Health Officials in grand island, nebraska, writing to governor ricketts saying we have to shut the plant in grand island down in the short run at least, to get a handle what is going on and the governor refusing, say nothing to the Public Health official, and insisting the plant be kept open. So nebraskas got a lot going on. This is going to be a big week for us, finally getting an understanding, at least a partial understand hag is happening in that state, we are finally getting some major testing results from big plants in nebraska. It should be important. It should be interesting. Those results should come in yesterday or today. Where are they . The governor of nebraska has apparently been waiting for those testing results, too. But not in the way everybody else has. Surprise headlines in nebraska today, governor ricketts says nebraska wont release specific covid19 numbers at meat packing plants anymore. The governor has decided, actually, now that were about to get testing results from a lot more plants in nebraska, actually the test results from plants like that, thats not Public Health information, thats business now. Its business. I hope that do you think they should be releasing their own numbers, to keep the community updated . Im sorry, michael . From the county star. Do i think that Food Processing plants should release their own numbers, that really is a decision for the company to make. I think that is really a business decision, whether or not the processors want to do that or not. Its a business decision. They can release it if they want, but nobody should tell them to. Good luck, nebraska. Good luck, communities in neighboring states. Where people who work in nebraska come home at the end of their shift. Im telling you, nebraska does not release that information about coronavirus in any of the Nursing Homes in the state. Nebraska has not tested a single prisoner in the entire state Correction System for coronavirus. And therefore says they have no cases among nebraska prisoners. What do you think the odds are that no prisoners in nebraska have coronavirus . Nebraska has huge known outbreaks at multiple Meat Processing plants across the state. Including some of the fastestgrowing outbreaks in the country. Including outbreaks that are causing Health Crises across state borders in other states. And just as the problem is getting so bad, that big plants in nebraska are having to finally shut, and the testing numbers are turning out to be horrific, even though they have to be leaked to the local paper for us to find out about them. Some of the biggest outbreaks and anywhere in the country, are in nebraska, and just as we are getting data from them. Just as they are starting to do testing at some of those plants, the governor now has decided, were not going to release any more information. None from Nursing Homes. None from prisons. And none from meat plants anymore. Because, you know, its business. So far, at least one county Health Department in lincoln appears inclined to defy the governor on this and release the data that they can get anyway. But watch this space, man. This is the dead center geographic middle of the country and it is where the huge american coronavirus epidemic is growing the fastest and that governors plan in that state is apparently to stop letting anyone know whats happening. This is the kind of thing you go down in the history books for, governor ricketts. Really. You are making history. You stick with this, youre going to be famous for this. Long after youre gone. 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During any problem, the cdc writes up specific instructions for communities to follow and beat back the problem and protect anybodys health. When it comes to these reopening guidelines related to coronavirus, the Washington Post was first to report the cdc was prepared to make these very granular practical guidelines public by the end of last week. But the post reported that there were concerns within the Trump Administration that maybe the Trump Administration didnt like these guidelines. They made reopening stuff seem so hard. Well, today the Associated Press furthered the story and blew it up. Rather than debating what the cdc guidelines should be for reopening the country, the Trump Administration has apparently decided just to toss the guidelines out because yeah, it sure is easier to tell everybody open back up, you figure it out. Who wants to deal with the pesky specific price how to actually do so safely without killing people . Who wants that getting in the way . Just open everything up. Who cares. Quote, the Trump Administration shelved a document created by the nations top investigators with step by step advice on how and when to reopen restaurants and other Public Places during the still raging coronavirus outbreak. Agency scientists has been told that this guidance quote will never see the light of day. Joining us is the reporter that broke this story, Investigative Reporter for the a. P. Congratulations on the scoop. Thanks for helping us understand it. No problem, thanks for having me. Am i right in saying this is what the cdc does . This is the type of guidance the cdc is expert and potentially best in the world at assembling in terms of giving practical advice about how stuff can be reopened, how things should be conduct in a way thats safe for Public Health . Right. This is exactly what cdc does, theyre built to do. The white house had released its reopening plan, which is a vague set of bullet points last month and what the cdc guidance did the way i see it is it filled in the blanks. It gave specific facilities, city leaders, county leaders, state leaders, you know, people thinking about reopening mass transit. Daycare centers as you mentioned. Schools, restaurants, bars, all the places that we all want to go and use again, it gave very specific kind of more granular instructions and what was even more interesting is a series of kind of flowcharts or decision trees they called them, which, you know, give a leader or somebody who owns a Daycare Center a set of steps if you meet criteria a, b and c move to the next step through a flow of decision making. It really helps especially people on the ground level with expertise that, you know, theyre not going to find necessarily at their county Health Department. Because of your reporting, even though the white house said these will never see the light of day and these should be shelved, because of your reporting, you and your colleagues were able to publish guidance. I dont want to ask you about your sources, but i do want to know if you could tell me if there are people within the cdc who are essentially mad that theyre being sidelined here, that this guidance and the work theyve done is very practical and would be helpful to the public isnt getting out and theyre trying to get it out by other means. Well, what we reported is the are, you know, a couple of different sources inside cdc that my reporting partner and i spoke to who were, you know, i dont know if angry is the right word, but disappointed that this work that their experts had so carefully constructed to help state partners because behind the screens at cdc what were hearing is states and local governments are, you know, hungry for this information. There are lots of requests c coming into the agency for help. This is a disappointment, they want people to get access to the best information they can to make decisions. One last question for you, jason, quickly. The cdc is not giving briefings which we might otherwise expect in a Public Health crisis. Weve reported on cdc advice about meat packing plants and some things seeming to be sort of oddly inflected and other people seem to be leaning on them. Is it your sense there is broadly speaking in that agency a change, amount of frustration about what theyre not able to do . I think so. The main reason, you know, is if you look back at previous outbreaks you can look back at h1n1 in 2009. On the cdc website and archive, if you look back at the fungal meningitis outbreak in 2013 or 2013 or zika. The cdc were commuting directly with clinicians, with the public and with political leaders. They were posting all sorts of videos and guidance on an almost daily basis. You can just see from looking backward at how cdc has responded public ly as a leader during these types of crisis, how different it is now. Absolutely. Clear as day. Jason darron, your beat right now is really, really important and a huge story. Thanks for helping us understand it and keep going. God speed. Thank you. All right, thats going to do it for us. See you again tomorrow. Time for the last word with lawrence odonnell. We couldnt be better coordinated tonight because my first guest, the next guest of msnbc audience will