Rachel Maddow takes a look at the days top political news stories. Comments are anything to go by. The New York Times reported that the serving White House Counsel Don Mcgahn has done more than 30 hours of voluntary interviews with the special Counsel Robert Mueller and his team of prosecutors. Shortly there after we got new reporting from the times about the president s personal lawyer being sqozed, for look of a better term. The Wall Street Journal is first on the story as they have bone the criminal intrigue surrounding president trumps long time lawyer Michael Cohen from the very beginning. But following the initial reporting a couple weeks ago that the potential charges Michael Cohen might be facing, now the New York Times as of yesterday and the Associated Press as of today, who have both match that had story. So the Wall Street Journal and the ap and the New York Times, all now reporting that Michael Cohens legal vulnerability may be at least in part rehated to
interesting, right . Lawyers getting lawyers is one thing. Lawyers becoming corroborating witnesses is an even bigger thing. I think there are steps we should take to avoid being spun or misled on both those stories. So well get to some of that ahead tonight. I feel like, when you see a story about mcgahn or cohen coming down the pike, unless it has publicly verifiable information, tread lightly. Dont go too fast around this corner. This may be someone trying to trip you up. There have been a bunch of new developments today and into this evening including one that reflights this guy. Remember this guy . He is the one person who has gone to prison already. Actually served his custodial sentence in the russia scandal. His name is alex van der zwan. He laid to investigators about his role in one of Paul Manaforts foreign lobbying gigs. It has always been possible there was a Big Biographical coincidence about him. It is totally possible its a coincidence. But one of the more intriguing details about him, who has served his time in prison. We think hes left the country since serving his anaheim priti prison. It has been fascinating to know that his fatherinlaw is a Russian Oligarch close to Vladimir Putin who turns up in the Christopher Steel dossier. He is married to the daughter of this man, herman khan, one of three wealthy russians who control a Banking Empire called alpha bank. It has popped up in a couple of different ways. Defamation lawsuit against Christopher Steel and the intelligence firm. The dossier didnt really say anything all that damning about alpha bank. It described herman khan. He described them as having a close relationship with putin. They said significant favors continue to be done in both directions. Still giving still giving informal advice to putin. Especially on the u. S. So thats whats in the steel dossier. They could each other favors. Further, they maybe funneled money to putin in his st. Petersburg days. This is not the worlds most salacious stuff. But it has tina life of its own. Republicans in congress, president trump, the white house more broadly, they have spent months trying to turn the steel dossier itself boo a huge scandal. It is against one serving Justice Department official. Because bruce ohrs wife worked at fusion gps. Mr. Ohr appears to have contact himself with Christopher Steel during the campaign. So House Republicans have gone along with the attacks on the dossier, the attacks on anybody associated with the dossier, and they are now going i know what the attacks on the Justice Department official who the Justice Department has singled out as being connected to the dossier. House republicans have summoned bruce ohr. They threatened a subpoena but
he will appear voluntarily. So there is been all this drama around the steele dossier. The other threatening action related to the steele dossier has been lawsuits. These lawsuits, like the one, filed by herman khan. Today a judge dismissed the Defamation Lawsuits against Christopher Steele and orbis business intelligence. It was dismissed with prejudice which means the plaintiffs cannot bring it up again. So alpha bank. We still dont know if there was anything operational when it came to efforts to interfere in the 2016 election or any potential Trump Campaign involvement in that effort. Weve seen no Firm Evidence but lots of suggestions about that possibility. We still dont know if it is
just a coincidence. We still dont know if theres anything shady about the fact brian, hired by alpha bank to get them out of that russia related scandal ends up in a senior position at the u. S. Justice department. But at least we do have this one conclusive statement today. The effort to sue, to make their connection to the steele dossier go away. Today that lawsuit failed in a way that seems quite definitive. The next person to go to prison in the Trump Scandal might be George Papadopoulos. Late friday we learned the special counsel recommended to the judge in this case that George Papadopoulos should serve up to six months in prison. The actual recommendation range it was zero to six months in prison. The great lynn sweet at the Chicago Sun Times report that
George Papadopouloss lawyers intend to ask the judge in this case for zero jail time. The formal response to the Sentencing Recommendation is due at the end of next week. When you look at the Sentencing Recommendation for George Papadopoulos from the special counsels office, from the prosecutors, it was really not good for him. Aside from the range of potential prison time they are suggesting, the way they describe papadopouloss behavior is not complimentary to him. The prosecutors told the court, the Plea Agreement entered into was not a standard cooperation agreement. Prosecutors merely agreed to bring to the courts attention at sentencing the defendants efforts to cooperate with the government. What prosecutors ended up bringing to the courts attention at sentencing was tenpage long list of ways in which George Papadopoulos didnt
help them out at all. Quote, the defendant did not provide substantial assistance. The prosecutors later said that he lied over and over again in ways that materially hurt the governments case. Quote, the defendants crime was serious, both in terms of the underlying conduct and its effect on the investigation. The defendant knew the questions he was asked by the fbi were important and he knew his answers were false at the time he gave them. His lies negatively affected fbis russia investigation and prevented the fbi from effectively identifying and confronting witnesses in a timely fashion. They were not momentary lapses. He lied repeatedly over the course of more than two hours. The sentence imposed should reflect lying to federal investigators has real consequences. Especially where the defendant lied to investigators about critical facts and an investigation of national importance. After having been explicitly warned that lying to the fbi is a federal offense. The nature and circumstances of the Offense Warrant a sentence of incarceration. So a couple things to watch. Number one, this is the government emphatically saying, George Papadopoulos should do jail time. According to lynn sweets report, they said he shouldnt do any jail time at all. But reference there that i read from the Sentencing Recommendation, there part here. The Plea Agreement sweer into was not a standard cooperation agreement. That raises the possibility George Papadopoulos may have some ongoing criminal liability here. This is not a recommendation that says, you know, listen, judge, our deal has been upheld on both sides. This guy was really helpful to us. Not that. Theyre saying he didnt help us
and he lied. This was not a formal agreement. We said we told the judge, if he helped us when it came time. Theyre saying, no, he didnt help us. The prospect of additional criminal liability. Some indictment, some new indictment in the future. Now that we know the government says he wasnt an earnest cooperator, that now looms over this little part of this case. And the sense that there is something important unresolved and it comes to George Papadopoulos was helped along by this Public Statement that he made today on twitter. 4 00 this afternoon. Ill quote it directly. Quote, been a hell of a year. Decisions. As a point of fact im not sure how many decisions he has to make. Well get some Expert Advice on that in a moment. The last set of developments in todays news related to the
scandal. Centered around the campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, who incidentally, has a notable new neighbor. As of this weekend. In a move that was described as surprise to all involved friday night, look who moved in. Accused Russian Foreign agent maria butina. On friday night was moved from the jail in d. C. Where she was arrested in july. They took her out of that jail friday night and brought her over to where Paul Manafort lives now which is the federal lockup in xanld rhea, virginia. The reason we have this unflattering picture of her is because i think shes been moved to that new facility in virginia. You see the alexandria sheriffs office. I think we get mug shots from that facility. She hasnt been convicted of anything. Shes being held in jail before her trial because prosecutors
thought she would be a flight risk. Basically, they argued to the judge that the russians would spirit her out of the country before she cover face charges if the judge left her out on the street. Thats why she has not been let out on the street. But now for whatever reason, they have moved her from one lockup. That means shes only about two blocks away from where Paul Manaforts trial has been underway in virginia. Thats not the courthouse where shell be tried. Shell be tried in washington, d. C. We know it is not unheard of for people waiting to end up in this jail. And it is surprising that nobody knows why she was moved. According to her lawyer, neither she nor her lawyer had any notice before it happened 40 night. Her attorney said, i got a
collect call. He visited her this morning. She was not in, i am still unaware of the reason. We contacted him today to see if he had learned today why his client was moved from d. C. To virginia. He told us, quote, no news. I have no answers yet. You can ask the Marshals Service. It is their call. We did ask the Marshals Service and they didnt call us back. Surprise theres no reason to think that theyll have contact with each other while theyre in the same jail but it is weird that they are now both in the same jail. We are expecting to get prosecutors list of evidence that they planned to use against
manafort in his next criminal trial due to start next month in Federal Court in d. C. The evidence list has been described as containing over 1,000 items. The deadline for the list is to be made public, is that it should be made public tomorrow. That should be a big long list. It should be a very interesting window into what Paul Manaforts next prosecution might look like. And meanwhile, were still waiting on the jury and his first felony trial. The jury considering manaforts fate in virginia, they deliberated all day thursday, they deliberated all day friday. The judge sent them home over the week. Theyve deliberated all day today. At 4 49 today, the judge announced the jury would stay late. Last week they broke at 5 00. Today, they asked to deliberate until later. Until at least 6 15 p. M. Maybe they might be planning to release a verdict on manafort tonight. That turned out not to be the case. The court reconvened after 6 00 and many the judge announced, once again no verdict. They will come back tomorrow to start deliberating again at 9 30 in the morning. So two questions. With a jury deliberating over the course of nine hours today and 24 hours in total. Is that starting to feel like a long time some is that a long deliberation and does it mean anything . If youre an attorney, they go through these long stretches. Do you find it to be heartening or disheartening or do we just not know . Second question. Last question. Is it a little weird that the
jury is like on the loose . Out in the wild . Not sequestered . Theyre just sent home every night. Theyre sent home the whole weekend. The judge himself has suggested that jurors might reasonably be afraid for their own safety in this case. He stated that hes received threats in conjunction with this case. He cited the threats in conjunction with not releasing the names. And they are freely mingling with reporters and anybody else who has business at the xanld rhea Federal Courthouse. Meanwhile, with these jurors, sort of on the loose despite that the judge is talking about potential danger they might be in, the judge has been admonishing them every day that they shouldnt consume any media about the case. This is unusual. Theres a certain amount of pressure in this case on, which these jurors are deliberating. The president of the United States has repeatedly made Public Statements praising the defendant. Saying the defendant is being mistreated. Calling his prosecution sad. And on the other side, every day, and sometimes two, three, four, six times a day, the president makes Public Statements in writing and out loud denouncing the prosecution in this case. Hes been praising the defendant, Paul Manafort, and hes been denouncing the prosecution. The special counsels office. The president daily renounces them. It might be difficult for jurors to avoid seeing any mention of the fact. That the president has been calling the prosecutors in this case, quote, a national disgrace. Saying this is a rigged investigation. The president deriding robert
mueller and the special counsels office. President s in the past have avoided weighing in on criminal cases so as to avoid the appearance in a penning case. With this president it is totally the obvious. He is absolutely trying to influence the case. And i know it is rare to sequester a jury, to put a jury in a hotel and not give them any contact with their homes or the outside world until later. But the president of the United States is directing at this case on a daily basis, clearly trying to influence the verdict of the jury. Is this one of those cases where the jury should have been sequestered . Joining us now, Barbara Mcquaid thank you so much. Nice to see you. My pleasure to see you. It is my impression as i rare thing for a jury to be sequestered but judges do sometimes order it, and particularly high profile cases or when theres a particularly high prediction jurors under normal circumstances wont be able to have avoid Media Exposure or pressure on their verdict. Is that basically true . Yeah. It is very rare that a jury would be sequestered. Ive never seen in it Federal Court. I know it has happened in some high profile cases. I think the Bill Cosby Case was one, o. J. Simpson, casey anthony, george zimmerman. So a few high profile cases. But i know one difference is that theyre not televised. So youre not likely to see
television coverage. So another reason is you dome want to put pressure on jurors to get done and get on with their lives and sequestration to cause them to be hasty in their decision. Aside from that, expense. Ive never seen it done in Federal Court. In terms of the president s remarks in this case, i see his remarks being so starkly positive toward the defendant, unfair prosecution of the defendant, and his withering attacks, even in personal terms against the president. Would that, what can the judge do to protect them . The judge does give that instruction. A standard instruction. When i was in court he gave that instruction every day. Not to read anything in the media. To discuss the case. Theres case law that says jurors are presumed to have followed their instructions unless you can show otherwise. So people expect that juries will follow that advice. There are four alternates in this case so if someone were to come in and say, i was at home and i overheard this on the television. Or someone blurted this out or someone told me trump said these things. They could be replaced with alternate. But i think the judge would ask you, do you think you could set it aside, i think most people would say yes, i can set them aside. So certainly theyre highly inflammatory and highly irregular that we would see Something Like this. Prosecutors are ethically bound not to speak with the guilt because an authority figure
could have an influence on the outcome. So it is very shocking that a president would make comments like this. And what do you lethink . The longer it is, the more likely there is a hung juror or a not guilty. I dont think weve gone on that long yet. They say bits a day of dleb rags for every week of testimony. In this case, i would think with the complexity they did not always display the documents. He would say they can look at that later is causing lengthier deliberations. He speeded up the trial but i think the cost for that is lengthier deliberations, while they go back and review all the documents. So im not concerned yet. And we all end up on the edge
of our seats. Thank you. Thank you. We have a lot to get to. Stay with us. To find my dream abode. Right away, i could tell his priorities were a little unorthodox. Keep going. Stop. A little bit down. Stop. Back up again. Is this adequate sunlight for a Komodo Dragon . Yeah. Sure, i want that discount on Car Insurance just for owning a home, but im not compromising. Youre taking a shower . Water pressures crucial, scott its like they say location, location, koi pond. They dont say that. Its like they say location, location, koi pond. If your moderate to severeor crohns symptoms are holding you back, and your Current Treatment hasnt worked well enough it may be time for a change. Ask your doctor about entyvio®, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohns. Entyvio® works at the site of inflammation in the gi tract, and is clinically proven to help many patients achieve both Symptom Relief and remission. Infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or after treatment. Entyvio® may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. Pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal Brain Infection caused by a virus may be possible. Tell your doctor if you have an Infection Experience frequent infections or have flulike symptoms, or sores. Liver problems can occur with entyvio®. If your uc or crohns treatment isnt working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio®. Entyvio®. Relief and remission within reach. A hotel can make or break a trip. And at expedia, we dont think you should be rushed into booking one. Thats why we created expedias addon advantage. Now after booking your flight, you unlock discounts on select hotels right until the day you leave. Addon advantage. Discounted hotel rates when you add on to your trip. Only when you book with expedia. The New York Times is reporting that the Ongoing Investigation regarding Michael Cohen is zeroing in on potential bank fraud involving Michael Cohens involvement in the taxi business. Also Campaign Finance loans in the payoffs that he helped arrange to at least two women who said they had sexual relationships with the president. This follows same contours of what was reported a couple weeks ago by the Wall Street Journal. Now the New York Times has the story, too, as does the Associated Press. All of these stories have the same basic contours. And none of that is the same as us seeing a real live indictment. But it does at least mean theres a big pile of credible corroborating reporting that all lays out the same potential charges against cohen. If it is true about what Michael Cohen will be charged with, then
first question is, oh, yeah . Show me. When is this going to happen . Second question is, is Michael Cohen talking with prosecutors about a potential Cooperation Deal to lessen his legal jeopardy to help prosecutors with information that they could use in other cases . Thats what everybody is watching. Im not going to give you, were chasing that story as hard as everybody is. Everybody is chasing the same story. That potential drama of the president s White House Counsel Don Mcgahn and his personal lawyer Michael Cohen, not just getting lawyers themselves but potentially enthusiastic witnesses in cases involving the president . Yeah. Theres a reason everybody is chasing this story so hard. But here is something specific to consider. Late last week, there document was filed in Federal Court in
manhattan. Just two pages. From the Special Master who was hired by the court to review evidence that was seized from Michael Cohens home. His home and his office and his hotel newsroom april. The Special Master was appointed by the court to check all the documents that were seized to make sure they were not covered by attorneyclient privilege. And if they were not, then he would hand them over to special prosecutors to review for charges against Michael Cohen. Well, in this last little filing, from the Special Master late last week, the Special Master, this retired judge, gives a final accounting of just how many documents and files she found to be covered by attorneyclient privilege. Bottom line is not many. A found thousand out of millions of documents taken. But look at this. Special master also says, there was one thing that i couldnt ever review. I could never look the see wlor
it was covered by attorneyclient privilege. Just one. Michael cohens encrypted black berry. She said she never got and its contents on review because apparently they dont have the password to the black berry. So the Special Master said in this filing, if down the road the government does manage to crack it open, theyll to have use a filter team at the u. S. Attorneys office and check to it see if any of the stuff is privileged. And she hopes thats okay. Because shes done now. Shes wrapped up her work so thats the one outstanding matter. That still hand been taken care of. Youll to have deal with it some other way. Here my question. Nearly five months into the Michael Cohen saga, prosecutors still dont have the password to his blackberry . Why have i read 5,000 articles in which Michael Cohen has given every conceivable signal that he wants to cooperate. That all this gossip and spin he is desperate to help prosecutors
any way he can. If so, shouldnt Michael Cohen be sky writing his blackberry password over sdny headquarters . If they need that password, thats the one bit of his files and documents they havent reviewed. The stuff on that blackberry. If they need and it they dont have it, isnt that a clear sign the two sides are not talking . Or at least if they are talking, hes not helping. So much spin around the Michael Cohen side of this story. Do not fall for it. Watch this space. Rmer. My life is here. [telephone ring] ahoyhoy. Alexander graham bell here. No, no, my number is one, you must want two two, i say like my father before. [telephone ring] like my father before. Ahoyhoy as long as people talk too loudly on the phone, you can count on geico saving folks money. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more
on Car Insurance. Jushis local miracle ear t at helped andrew hear more of the joy in her voice. Just one hearing test is all it took for him to hear more of her laugh. And less of the Background Noise around him. For helen, just one visit to her local miracleear is all it took to learn how she can share more moments with her daughter. Just one free hearing test could help you hear more. Laughter. Music. Life. Call now for your free hearing test from an Industry Leader miracleear. Itreat them all as if, they are hot and energized. Stay away from any downed wire, call 911 and call pg e right after so we can both respond out and keep the public safe. One call 811 before you dig. Ings you can do is to make sure you calling 811 can get your lines marked. Its free, its easy, we come out and mark your lines. We provide you the information so you will dig safely. This era in d. C. Has been marked by many mysteries. Not chief among those but maybe deputy chief among mysteries, how come White House Counsel Don Mcgahn is so good at playing the hero in the press . How come he is so good at getting a heroic look at his Stoic Forebaerns into the papers . How has he managed to get so many stories into the newspapers in which he alone, he bravely is secretly the real American Hero . Don mcigan is reported to have been the one who calmed the president down after rob mueller was appointed. So the president didnt do something truly crazy. Don mcgahn has threatened to resign rather than fire Robert Mueller, which the president had ordered him to do. Do you think the white house weirdly mishandled the firing of mike flynn after they were warned . No, no. He didnt mismanage anything. He reportedly warned the white house about the lying of Michael Flynn right away. He was right on top of it. Don mcigan shows up in the press as hanging in there through the chaos, selflessly pulling back from quitting, hanging in there to take care of the countrys needs despite really being pushed around by the president in an unfair way. I dont know who one day will pay the part familiar with his thinking when the movie is made of all this but the role is getting larger every day. This tweaked times reported that don mcgahn has cooperated extensive when i the Robert Mueller inquiry. He sat with investigators over 30 hours in the last nine months. He laid out how the president
tried ensure the investigation though never going beyond his legal authorities. And yes, the white house may be a little freaked out to realize they had no idea don mcigan had talked so much. They had no idea that in the 30 hours of testimony, that he don mcgahn had no choice but to selfl selflessly give. The legal team told the lawyers he would have resigned if he thought he had witnessed the president committing a crime. The source tell nbc, theres no way of knowing how his testimony may fit with any other evidence that the Mueller Investigation has collected. The mystery, the secret heroism keeps growing by the hour. There are a few lumps in the oinltment though. Hold that thought. This is an insurance commercial. If your moderate to severeor crohns symptoms are holding you back, and your Current Treatment hasnt worked well enough it may be time for a change. Ask your doctor about entyvio®, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohns. Entyvio® works at the site of inflammation in the gi tract, and is clinically proven to help many patients achieve both Symptom Relief and remission. Infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or after treatment. Entyvio® may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. Pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal Brain Infection caused by a virus may be possible. Tell your doctor if you have an Infection Experience frequent infections or have flulike symptoms, or sores. Liver problems can occur with entyvio®. If your uc or crohns treatment isnt working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio®. Entyvio®. Relief and remission
within reach. Owners always seem so happy . Because theyve chosen the Industry Leader. Subaru forester holds its value better than any other vehicle in its class according to alg. Better than crv. Better than rav4. Better than rogue. An adventure that starts with a Subaru Forester will always leave you smiling. Get 0 percent Apr Financing on the 2018 Subaru Forester. I was 2 1 2 weeks old at the time so it is not like remember this from experience. But i almost feel like i do. This part of the story now so much a part of how we think about how things blow up in American Politics when they blow up really badly. I was 2 1 2 weeks old. This was april 19, 1973. The Statement Issued today by john dean, the white House Counsel, caught everybody by surprise. Specially white house. It was really not a statement. It was a warning to the people dean works for. Anybody who knows me, anybody who knows the true facts about watergate, knows better than to try to make a scapegoat out of me. That was deans statement and the implication was that he has a lot of unspilled beans the spill if he is forced to spill them. The white houses comment, nobody is trying the make anybody a scapegoat. Were just trying to get to the truthful he made his statement without notifying anybody at the white house in advance and the white house was obviously shocked. The Press Secretary asked if
dean is stale mental in Good Standing of the White House Team would say only that he is in his office. He has not resigned. He has not been fired. This could be the case for some time to come but it is clear that from now on, john dean is white House Counsel in name only. Nbc news at the white house. 11 days after that warning shot from then white House Counsel john dean, president Richard Nixon fired him. And nixons supporters immediately began pointing to john dean as the person who everybody should blame for the whole Watergate Scandal and the whole coverup. It should all be on deans head. Not the president s. That didnt work out well. But now weve got a current president of the United States talking about john dean in public, calling him a rat for having testified against nixon 45 years ago. And weve got the current white House Counsel also citing the example of john dean. Basically to say, he is trying avoid john deans ultimate fate in watergate which is yeah, maybe now hes remembered as a hero, or a rat, depending on how you look it a. But at the time john dean went to prison. Both sides are sort of misremembering how things worked out for john dean. Michael beschloss is here next to sort it out. Whats the hesitation . Eh, it just feels too complicated, you know . Well sure, at first, but jj can help you with that. Jj, will you break it down for this gentleman . Hey, ian. You know, at Td Ameritrade, we can walk you through your Options Trades step by step until youre comfortable. I could be up for that. Thats taking Options Trading from wall st. To main st. Hey guys, wanna play some pool . Eh, im not really a pool guy. Whats the hesitation . Its just complicated. Stepbystep Options Trading support from Td Ameritrade at t provides edgetoedge intelligence, covering virtually every part of your manufacturing business. So this wont happen. Because youve made sure this sensor and this machine are integrated. She can talk to him, yes. Atta, boy. Some people assign genders to machines. And you can be sure you wont have any problems. Except for the daily theft of your danish. Not cool at t provides edge to edge intelligence. It can do so much for your business, the list goes on and on. Thats the power of. This shipment will be delivered. Last april by Richard Nixon told the Senate Watergate committee today that the president was involved in Watergate Wrongdoing and having accused the president , dean said he hopes mr. Nixon will be forgiven. Thats how dean began his testimony today. It is my honest belief that while the president was involved, that he did not realize or appreciate at any time the implications of his involvement. And i think that when the facts come out, i hope the president is forgiven. John dean followed that assertion with a 245 Page Statement that took all day to read, crammed with quotes, dates, memoranda and detailed recollections of talks with the president. A 245 Page Statement that he read outloud. Nixons white House Counsel john dean had decided early on in the Watergate Scandal that nixon was going to try to make him the
scapegoat. Once he figured that out, he made 180 degree turn. He went straight to federal prosecutors. He told them he would cooperate with them fully. By the time nixon fired john dean from the white House Counsels job, dean had already for weeks been helping prosecutors on watergate. So with this new reporting over the past couple of days that the current white House Counsel has spoken for 30 hours with special Counsel Robert Mueller, the president now is literally launching a new attack on john dean saying that dean was a rat for testifying against nixon back in the day. But the current white House Counsel john mcgahn is in here of deans legacy. He says hes determined to not
have john deans fate. He was prohibited from practi practicing law. That is what compelled him to cooperate with Robert Mueller. Thats become the blueprint for this dynamic we have been watching unfold. Is the white House Counsel right to worry about john deans fate . Will testifying now help him avoid that fate . And is the president right to be concerned about rats . Joining us now the nbc news president ial historian. It is great to have you with us tonight . Thanks, rachel. Good to see you. The president today called john dean a rat. When dean came forward in 1973, what did nixon supporters do in response . How was he treated at the time . Well, when he testified before the senate, as you were just showing and said that nixon was central to the coverup, a lot of nixon people were very angry. But what amazes me, rachel, is that if we were to talk to any president from Gerald Ford All The Way through barack obama and say what do you think of john dean . They would have said a flawed person but ultimately a hero of watergate because he helped to expose Richard Nixon. This is another sign of this weird time were living through that the current president , donald trump, was use a word like rat. One of the things were watching unspool now in this story is that nobody is quite sure whether or not don mcgahn acted heroically or whether he had to talk to the special counsel. Did john dean at white House Counsel have a choice in terms of whether he was going to cop wop rate . He worried he was going to get blamed and this was his effort to get out ahead of it. But how much of a choice did he have . In the end probably not much. You were so right tonight to say
be very kcautious about what were hearing from the outside. In deans case he knew he was central to the coverup. He knew nixon was trying to make him the scapegoat and blame watergate on him. When dean started talking to people in the legal process, he did two things that ultimately were crucial. Number one, he gave them information that showed that not only should they will investigating the watergate breakin, which is what they had been focussed on, but they should also look at nixon in terms of Obstruction Of Justice that shifted the investigation. Ultimately, Obstruction Of Justice was article number one of the bills of impeachment that would have been voted against nixon. The other thing dean did was he said when i was talking to nixon nixon would say things like, well, i didnt do such and such,
did i, john . It sounded as many maybe i was being taped. That caused them to be aware of the possibility that there would be tapes that would show the real story. Deans recollections about the way nixon talked to him was a signal essentially to investigators that there were tapes they should look for. They were looking very hard and finally, Alexander Butterfield knew about that, was approached by investigators for the Senate Watergate committee. He was the one that revealed those tapes to the public. Ultima ultimately, they brought nixon down. Thank you, my friend. Great to have you here. Thank you. Be waell. Thank you. Stay with us. Adults are just kids with much, much better toys. Introducing the 2018 cclass sedan, coupe and cabriolet. The thrills keep getting better. Lease the c300 sedan for 399 a month at your local mercedesbenz dealer. Mercedesbenz. The best or nothing. You might be missing something. Y healthy. Your eyes. Thats why theres ocuvite. Ocuvite helps replenish nutrients your eyes can lose as you age. It has lutein, zeaxanthin and omega3. Ocuvite. Be good to your eyes. You shouldnt be rushed into booking a hotel. With expedias addon advantage, booking a Flight Unlocks discounts on select hotels
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