Theres a lot of to talk about right this second. I will tell you there have been a whole bunch of scoops that have broken in the press today, this afternoon and now into tonight. This has been a day for a whole bunch of american journalists, for conservatives, for a wall street journal from the director of National Intelligence made his own news today. We had some really interesting reporting out of the Eastern District of virginia, which is a sleeper story. A whole bunch of Important News has broken today. Were going to the talk about those tonight. But i have to tell you cnn has reported in the last few minutes, reporting that the Rachel Maddow special counsel investigation has produced its first criminal charges. I would elaborate further right now on what cnn is reporting on this matter right now, but thats really all theyre reporting. This is not confirmed by National Weather service ne nbc news or any other news organi organizati organization. This is cnns work. Theyre saying a federal grand jury approved the first charges in the Mueller Investigation. We dont know what the charges are, theyre sealed by a federal judge well find out what that means in a moment. We also dont know who the charges are against. If theyre against one person or multiple people, or who those people are if there are, in fact, charges against them. We dont have any reason to believe that any of those people have been notified of the fact that they have been charged, if this reporting is accurate. If, in fact, these charges are still under seal. So the headline is very provocative. We know very little detail beyond that. Other than the fact prosecutors associated with the Mueller Investigation were seen entering the room where the grand jury meets in d. C. In the federal courthouse in d. C. , other than the attorneys being spotted in that room, which has happened before, we have no corroborating information about whether or not this is true. So obviously this is a very provocative prospect. Were keeping an eye closely on that for additional reporting. Lots of News Organizations are scrambling to do their own corroboration and approach to the story. Ill tell you as someone who has covered the russia story and investigation probably more than anyone else in cable news. I will tell you there have been lots and lots and and lots of rumors this was about to happen. There have been lots of sort of credible, Single Source reports that charges were imminent from mueller investigators. You follow all that stuff, track it down, but until you have multiple sources its not rep t reportab reportable. Cnn says its reportable, no one else does. If theyre right, this is the first multisource account these charges may happen. On this story as every story theres no reason to speculate further, especially with no further details to speculate on. But based on what they reported so far how we should understand the significance of this, joining us is Barbara Mcquad. Thank you for being here with us tonight. I have a lot of other things to talk to you about tonight but im really glad you were here for this. You bet. Happy to talk about it. Nbc news has not confirmed the cnn reporting. But let me ask you about some of the terms theyre describing as a Law Enforcement professional, former federal prosecutor. A federal grand jury in washington d. C. Approved the first charges in the investigation being led by mueller. Tell us about the work of a grand jury and what it means to say a grand jury has approved charges. Typically what happens in a grand jury investigation they hear evidence, where it can be one day in a little case or a big dais case like this where they hear testimony and see exhibits over a matter of months. And at some point the prosecutor makes a decision to seek or decline to seek an indictment. They think theyve gotten to the place where they have probable cause to go forward. So they draft an indictment, present it to the grand jury, discuss the law and the elements of the offenses, answer any questions they have, and leave the room. Leave the grand jury to deliberate among themselves and make a decision whether they prove or decline to approve they call it issuing a true bill or issuing a no true bill. It sounds like they issued a true bill, if this is accurate. Theres nobody making a presentation to the grand jury that they shouldnt approve the indictment between the prosecutor, right . This is between the prosecutor and the grand jury without anybody intervening the target of the investigation . Thats right. Thats why the defendant is presumed innocent. They have not had a chance to crossexamine witnesses, any of the things at trial. I will say this, you sometimes hear this complaint that a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich before a grand jury. I dont think thats true. Not the least of which its a strange metaphor but because there is an obligation to present the grand jury with significant exculpatory information so they are understanding the whole story. Does Robert Mueller, over his years in the Justice Department and fbi, does he have a reputation in terms of how aggressive he might be about charging people . Is he known for approaching these things in any way. Id say hes known for approaching investigations with a sense of urgency. Were seeing that here. Some people may not think its quick, it seems quick to me. But it is his reputation to work hard, drive his people hard, leave no stone unturned. So i think were seeing the fruits of that sort of effort tonight. According to cnns report, this is not confirmed by nbc, in their language the charges are still sealed under orders of a federal judge. What would it mean for the grand jury to have approved a proposed indictment but then for the charges to be sealed . How does that work and why is that done . Sealing is fairly common at this stage when you have an indictment that is issued or approved as it may have been today. And the reason is that Law Enforcement kind of wants to get its ducks in a row before they go out and arrest the defendant or notify them. It may be they dont arrest whoever this defendant is because they worked out a relationship with his or her defense attorney to bring them in to appear on the case. Its late on a friday afternoon, they want to keep it secret so at a moment of their choosing they can inform the defendant or surprise them with an arrest whenever they choose to do it. Can an indictment like this be sealed indefinitely . How long can a seal last. It can be sealed for some time. Sometimes theres reasons to seal it for longer times. You may want to arrest other people, and you dont want to alert them that someone else has been charged. It could be someone is a fugitive and you dont know where they are, and you dont want to alert them of the charges while you look for them. At some point it is considered against the defendants speedy trial rights if you keep an indictment sealed for too long. And certainly theres the fiveyear statue of limitations from the time the conduct was committed. My guess is theyre sealing for some time so they can e chat an arrest plan or an appearance by the defendant in court. Let me ask you im not a lawyer, i have no Law Enforcement connections whatsoever, other than speeding tickets. Is it possible im thinking about the treatment by the special council thus far of Paul Manafort in particular. The noknock warrant to go turn up at his house in the predrawn hours, including picking his lock. The reports that prosecutors working with special counsel mueller told Paul Manafort expect to be diindicted we haveo reason to think these charges, that they have anything to do with manafort, if they are charges. Is it possible that you would bring a proposed indictment to a grand jury, you have the grand jury approve it, seal the indictment, and you would do that basically as a form of pressure on a target . Pressure on a suspect, not necessarily because the end game is to put that person in jail but you want to scare that person so they tell you something for a larger part of your investigation. That seems unlikely to me. I think even the examples you gave were not so much scare tactics as necessary steps in the investigation. Telling someone theyre a target of the investigation just puts them on notice, if you want to come in and cooperate now is the time. Maybe you can talk us out of it. The noknock warrant, you have to show a judge that you have a reason for that. There was some legitimate concern, if that report is true, that evidence would be destroyed, deleting of a document thats saved on a cell phone for example that would be done in a few minutes it takes for a knock. I dont think its likely they would file an indictment to scare somebody. I think they mean business, if there is an indictment theyll show it to somebody. I think theyll use it to hopefully get cooperation against other offenders. Let me ask you one last question here and im going to ask you to stay with us for the hour and come back and talk to us about these things, but before i let you go for now, you did mention you feel like in your opinion, this feels quick to you . This feels like it was faster than you were expecting for there to be charges or an indictmentna in this case. Why did you say that . When you think about the big picture, any connections between russia and the Trump Campaign seems like such an enormous case it could take many, many months to get to the bottom of it. But even in if its a charge against manafort or flynn or someone else, it seems theres so much new news all the time that it seems it would take a team of lawyers a long time to get to the bottom of it. But as i said, mueller does have a reputation of working with urgency and he has a team of 16 top prosecutors so theyve been working days, nights and weekends to get this done. Thank you very much. I want to bring in the conversation matthew miller. Hes the former spokesperson for the Justice Department. Thank you for being here, i appreciate it. Thank you. You heard the discussion i just had with Barbara Mcquad. You youve seen the reporting that came out. I need to underscore that nbc has not confirmed this reporting tonight and as of five seconds ago when i last checked with the control room, no other news agency has as well. This is cnn alone. Theyre saying the first charges have been brought. Theyve been brought, theyre under seal so we dont know what they are. Let me ask your top line response to that news if this turns out to be the case. I think what Barbara Mcquad said is accurate. This shows that bob mueller is moving quickly. There are a lot of people that thought he might pursue this investigation into next year and wrap it all up at one time, with a series of charges or a report to congress about actions by the president , but it appears hes decided not to take that course of action but at least bring one indictment, maybe more than one set of indictments early in this case while he continues to investigate other things. This is important to note. This does not mean we are at the end of the investigation. This is the first indictment, first set of indictments, well see when the charges are unsealed. And there are more to come. Part of the reporting that cnn has done tonight which is more background rather than it is sort of some new fact that theyve dug up. The way theyre characterizing their report tonight is that the Deputy Attorney general, Rod Rosenstein, whos overseeing all matters related to the russia investigation because of the recusal of attorney general Jeff Sessions, Rod Rosenstein as the person overseeing the Mueller Investigation, would he have had to see the proposed indictment . Would he have had to have been informed about these proposed charges in order for the Mueller Investigation to have gone this far . Technically under the regulations, he wouldnt have to see the indictment. It would be up to the relationship he and mueller worked out under the terms of the appointment. The appointment document itself is narrow, it sets out the things mueller can investigate, it doesnt set out the relationship he and the Deputy Attorney general would have. I would have expected mueller would have informed Rod Rosenstein about this. Would have briefed him about who he plans to indict, when he plans to do it. I dont know if he would brief him on what hes actually found. I think, especially given the real concerns that people have raised about Rod Rosensteins independence, mueller will be aware of those and he might be careful about how much detail he does share with the Deputy Attorney general. Matt, on the issue of the political opposition that the Mueller Investigation and that the congressional russia investigations have run into, one of the things discussed over the last few days is whether the mueller budget request, the funding, that needs to go through congress to keep the investigation going, whether that might be a point of leverage that the republicans in the white house could use against the Mueller Investigation and given the timing of when that investigation started, when he was put in charge of this probe, which was just about six months ago, maybe that question was starting to come due. I want to know what your reaction is to that recent reporting and those concerns by people who were worried about the independence of the investigation. I think its clear that everyone from the president to his allies in congress to the conservative media have been orchestrating a drum beat against the special council, which includes raises questions about his budget, whether he should be fired. And i think that shows nervousness on his investigation, where he might go, ha what he might find. If indictments come out, it means youre interfering with an investigation that a grand jury has found probable cause to charge someone criminally. It becomes a question of really its obviously not obstruction of justice for congress to do that, but it becomes, you know, blocking an investigation that as borne fruit. It becomes a more questionable activity after he filed charges than it was before. One last question for you, matt. One of the stories that we were planning on leading with tonight before this news broke was the interesting and unexpected news out of the Eastern District of virginia, was that the attorney, dana boente, who has played a number of stand in roles, being brought on as acting attorney general, acting Deputy Attorney general, hes now the acting assistant attorney general on security matters, he announced his resignation today. That may be a totally separate matter from this, it may be absolutely unrelated. Theres been some speculation that dave briggs because of t that dana boente hbecause of th job he had in the Trump Administration theres been some reporting, speculation that maybe dana boente may end up being a witness in part of this investigation, maybe that has something to do with him stepping down today. Do you have any thoughts on that matter . I dont know if its true hell be a witness. I talked to someone today that said they talked today dana, where hes been excited so he could retake his job in the Eastern District of virginia. What that says is he did not decide two days later to resign, but he was forced out by the Trump Administration. We dont know the answer to that, we dont know whether it has anything to do with the Mueller Investigation, but the timing has been curious with his sudden leaving of the department. That was a conversation he had a couple of days ago in which he did not express any desire and, in fact, expressed enthusiasm of continuing in the Eastern District of virginia and today surprisingly, mysteriously, he resigned. Right. You can draw it wasnt a resignation that wasnt of his own volition. Matthew miller, thank you for being with us on short notice matt. I appreciate it. I want to bring into the conversation now, another former u. S. Attorney, paul fishman who was the u. S. Attorney representing new jersey. Thank you for joining us on short notice. Thanks for having me back, rachel. Let me underscore again this is news not confirmed by nbc, this is one News Organization reporting that the first criminal charges have been filed in the Mueller Investigation. We dont know what the charges are, theyre reportedly still sealed, this is unconfirmed news, this is cnns reporting. I know youre familiar with what cnn is reporting. Let me ask your top line response to it . Obviously, rachel, when we talk about this investigation, its not just one investigation. There are multiple parts and moving pieces to it. Theres the manafort piece, the flynn piece, the obstruction of justice, the collusion with russians. It looks from the team that bob mueller has assembled he has different groups of lawyers working on different aspects, and that makes sense. It seems like one particular piece of that investigation has now gotten to a place where mueller is comfortable returning charges against one person if cnns reporting is correct. That doesnt mean theyre finished, those will be all charges against that individual, but hes gotten to a place, if the reports are true, where hes comfortable asking a grand jury to indict knowing he shouldnt or wouldnt do that unless he has sufficient evidence to convict. In terms of how this is being handled, again if the cnn r