Summer, them determining that, that really is hanging out there with us having no idea where that went. Weve got woodwards bullet proof reporting that mcmaster discovered that. He verified it. It wasnt something that just looked like russian propaganda. The National Security council determined that it was. If we had a functioning congress, that is the sort of thing that you would expect there to be congressional investigations about. Also there does seem to be, as i was talking with mr. Woodward about just a moment ago, there does seem to be real sensitivity within the white house to the questions raised about Jared Kushners finances and business dealings, with all sorts of people close to the president raising the prospect that that might have been the real reason behind lots of his behavior, everything from firing james comey to picking fights with jeff sessions, a lot of people in the white house attributed freakouts from the president and outbursts from the president as efforts to try to distract specifically from concerns about jareds finances. So theres all sorts ofly little threads like that. Theres personality staff and people calling people crazy. There are investigative threads to pull and this book is going to be a start of that reporting. What im intrigued by and hasnt gotten a lot of concentration until your conversation with bob woodward tonight is the way the governing actually works in this white house. In that sense, that part those parts of the book you can compare them to previous woodward books inside previous presidencies and he made a reference to the book he wrote about the first book he wrote about the Clinton Administration and nafta and the way nafta worked its way through the legislative process. You can see in the story titled agenda, it is an extremely careful process, and every decision being made about nafta in its implementation and what the government would have to do to implement it, is done with extreme care, both inside the Clinton White house and in the congress when theyre doing it. And then you cut to the 21st century version of this in the Trump White House where we heard bob woodward tonight describe to you how he just wants to throw it all away and people are surrounding him telling him all of the things that nafta has done that he does not know about. He clearly does not know about. And it has and then new information has no effect. Yes, thats that last point. Thats the key part of it, because there is a difference between a president having suspect ideas at one point woodward uses the phrase dangerous ideas to talk about how even trumps top advisors advise think about the way that he thinks about the world. But its another thing to be unwilling or unable to engage with the implications of what youre about to do because youre so caught up in the idea of the excitement that youre about to do something big. If you actually cant weigh the consequence of that because youre incapable of seeing that far down the road or incapable of absorbing that complexity, i mean thats the reason we dont let dogs drive cars. It doesnt mean dogs are bad. It just means just because you can reach the pedal doesnt mean you should be able to propel this hunk of iron. So its disturbing. I think its insightful in terms of the president s psychology, but i think it also shows us why he called the book fear. Theres reasons to worry. Rachel, i think thats the missed possible subtitle of this book. I think in the paper back version, let me get it in the frame. Paper back version is going to be fear why we dont let dogs drive cars by bob woodward. That should be the paper back title of this book. My dog is not going to say hello to me, hes going to turn his back to me. I am in trouble with the dog community. I can tell you. The dog will get over it, rachel. Thank you, lawrence. Thank you, rachel. We have solve to discuss with our panel tonight on rachels interview with bob woodward in this last hour. And this new book fear which has rocked the white house by revealing an uninformed and unfit President Trump in more detail than any previous reporting. This book is on sale today and americans will now be able to read this, judge it for themselves. Politico is reporting that the president is absolutely livid at the former members of his administration, especially gary cohn and rob porter, who he believes leaked to bob woodward. They are both obvious direct sources of the book. Both men appear frequently in the book, including in a section that describes kohn stealing a letter from the president s desk before he could sign it to terminate the United States trade deal with south korea. And so today, those two former members of the Trump Administration released written statements about Bob Woodwards book and they do not, they do not take back a single quote that either one of them gave to the book. Gary cohn, the former chief economic advisor, said, in part, that the book does not accurately portray my experience at the white house. And rob porter, the former staff secretary, referred to the book as having selective and often misleading presentations. Their statements were very, very similar, but neither statement denied being a source for the book and both of them obviously are. And they did not deny any, any of the claims made in their name in the book. And so neither statement actually in any way contradicts anything in Bob Woodwards reporting in this book. But the president again tried to claim today that these new statements actually have meaning and that the book is not a reliable account of his presidency. Do you believe rob porter and gary cohn you shouldnt be talking about that right now because it doesnt matter. But i appreciate their statement. Their statement was excellent. They both set out beautiful which shows the book is just a piece of fiction. And the president has tweeted that the woodward book is a scam and bob woodward is a liar. But there is an obvious contradiction in the president s statements on Bob Woodwards book. Politico said, this book does not accurately portray my experience, former top stewards of the administration who shards with the famed journalist alarming details of how the white house functions. Joining our discussion now leading us off tonight, tim obrien, he is the executive editor of bloomberg view. Hes the author of trump nation, the art of being the donald. And an msnbc contributor. David corn is with us, Washington Bureau chief, coauthor of the book russian roulette and msnbc political analyst. And Washington Post and best selling author who has written biographies on president s clinton and obama. Let me go to david marinas on this. You have read books about presidencies. You have written books about presidencies. You have read bob woodward books about presidencies before. Yes. The president tonight trying just the most lame white house reaction to a bob woodward book ever, and where do you think this stands at the moment in the bob woodward versus the credibility of the Trump White House . So many paths, bob said, right . So many paths. Thats what he just told rachel in the last hour. Yes. You know, in one way its sort of watergate redux with nondenial denials. People who spent hours and hours with bob woodward and gave him documents denying things that they said to him when he has them on tape. And has the documents. In the war on truth, i cant think of a better general on the side of truth than bob woodward. And thats where we stand right now. I wanted heres a quote from rob porter in the book. Lets remember, rob porter and gary cohn their written statements they dont attempt to contradict a single word in the book. Porter says, it felt like we were walking along the edge of the cliff perpetually. Other times we would fall over the edge. And an action would be taken. And tim obrien, its very clear, i mean, anyone who knows how to read these books can tell that rob porter is a direct source, speaking directly to bob woodward as is gary cohn. These statements theyve issued today are things that have happened with woodward books before and bob woodward has said in the past that sometimes people will actually tell him. Sorry, but im coming out today and im going to Say Something negative about the book, even though, of course, i did give you all this interview material. The most famous this has happened before mark felt, who was deep throat for both bob woodward and carl bernstein. Mark felt spent 30 years after that book came out denying that he was the source for the book because everyone in washington needs to insulate themselves from the fallout of a bob woodward book. There is a good chance that a number of the people in the white house who have stepped up and have said, this is an inaccurate account, or i never said what i said, are simply covering themselves because theyre aware that theyre with a president who is going to be vindictive and is going to try to take them off the stage. And i think the other issue here that comes out in full spades in this with what all of them are contending with is theyve got a president who is profoundly ignorant. Hes not only intemperate, hes ignorant and theyre trying to protect him from his own i ignorance. When you were writing about donald trump and his businesses is this what you noted with the businesses, the frustrated Advisory Group around him . The trump thats portrayed in bobs book is the same trump who ran for president. He is the same trump who ran the trump organization. He is the same donald trump that everyone in new york has known for the last 50 years. This is exactly who this guy is. Lets listen what bob woodward told rachel about the need to create a process in the white house. John kelly at a certain point, chief of staff realizing that they had to do something so that when donald trump simply tweets something or says something, it doesnt automatically become the next action of the white house. Lets listen to this. President s can do wonderful things and they can do disastrous things. The process really matters. It finally gets to a point in the book where general kelly, who is the chief of staff, sits down with rob porter who is the staff secretary and says, we need to write up rules and we need to tell the president that if he makes one of these seat of the pants decisions, its not final. We have to sit down and have a process where the president will actually literally sign a document, a decision memo. Its not final. You cant run around and do these things. Theres got to be a process. Youve got to hear arguments. And time and time again sometimes he does, but time and time again he doesnt. David koran, doesnt sound like the process is working. You know, Donald Trumps love affair with chaos is well known. We saw it in the campaign. Weve seen it in how the books and a lot of reporting thats come out in the last year and a half. To me the most frightening thing here and this i think the lack of process is reflected in this. In bobs book, he talked about it with rachel. There are examples throughout the book. The president seems incapable of thinking. I know that sounds hyperbolic, but thinking entails absorbing information, considering the information, processing the information, and coming to some conclusion or output at the end. And instance after instance, he refuses to absorb information. Maybe he cant even do so. And there is no process internally to match any bureaucratic or organizational process. And to me thats the mostly frightening thing. A guy with his finger on the Nuclear Button who is impulsive, egotistical and narcissistic doesnt seem to be able to engage in basic cognitive activity. And the World Trade Organization is a very good example of that. We heard bob woodward yes. Describing this to rachel in the last hour, the president s inability to understand how things actually work in the World Trade Organization and why it generally works so much to the United States advantage. Lets listen to that. When confronted with evidence for instance, there is a scene in the book where he starts talking about the World Trade Organization, which is an organization that actually gives us great leverage if there is unfair trade practice in the world. And he said, this is the Worst Organization in the world and the advisors who are experts in there say, no. And trump says, well, we lose our cases there and they bring out the document. No, we win 85. 7 of the cases, not just 85 , but 85. 7. And trump says, no, thats not true. They said, bring in your trade representative. Call him. Ask him. Trump, i dont want to. I wont do that. He closes his mind to the information that makes it possible for the president to weigh arguments and data. And, david marinas, the president seems incapable of being embarrassed at the exposure of his own ignorance in those scenes. You know, that was so classic bob woodward, the 85. 7 . You know, hes relentless hes very cautious, never getting ahead of the facts, but relentless in the pursuit of them. But yes, there have been a few politicians in the modern age who seem incapable of embarrassment or guilt, and donald trump in this book time and time again comes through in that fashion. And, tim, the donald trump that youve seen, as weve said, seems to be this seems to be just the government version of the donald trump exactly. The way he operated in business, the way he did everything. When he gets these paper statements today from rob porter and gary cohn, does he fall for those . I think all he cares about is the show. You know, he has this very reptilian, core strengths. Even if it contradicts what he believes it happening. Its also juan of his core flaws. Because he only lives in this world, this fiction that he creates around himself. I think he knows full well that those are possibly cover documents for both gary cohn and rob porter. But what he cares more about is that his assemblage of voices out there saying, bob woodward is a liar and the president of the United States is telling the truth. And thats why its worth remembering in a moment like this that trump is 72 years old and he spent the last five decades anonymously leaking horrendous gossip and damaging information about friends, Business Partners and his own family members. David corn, on one of the mysteries bob woodward could not penetrate is what he calls the Michael Flynn mystery, the mysteries of Michael Flynn and what went on in those days at the white house before he was fired. And so that seems like thats up to special prosecutor to explain that one. Well, its something that, you know, a congressional investigation could explain, too. We dont seem to be having that on the house side. Remember, were waiting for the Senate Intelligence committees investigation which may or may not be better than the house intelligence. There still are dozens of questions, particularly in the trumprussia scandal that bobs book doesnt address, doesnt get to, and the public deserves answers to. And trump, of course, is trying to distract mightily from that. David marinas, before we go, future historians when they come to Bob Woodwards book and they come to what we now know about this presidency, what would be the historians take on Bob Woodwards book, reading it 50 years from now . I think theyll find it largely reliable, as historians have found when theyve gone over the notes of his books on nixon. John farrell who wrote a great biography of nixon went through all of the notes woodward had down at the university of texas and found it accurately portrayed what he was finding. I think the largest point, best point ive seen lately is david ige nash us, my colleague at the post, who described the fear of donald trump in a different way. It wasnt that he ruled by fear or we should be feared, but that donald trump was afraid, and that made him small. And everything he does is a fear of showing vulnerability and humanity. David marinas, tim corn, thank you for starting our discussion tonight. And when we come back, what will we know about the president s Legal Defense . What Bob Woodwards book reveals about that. And later, donald trump had to do something today thats very difficult for him. He had to speak about 9 11 without lying. It really it rocked our world. I had no idea the amount of damage that water could do. We called usaa. And they greeted me as they always do. Sergeant baker, how are you . They were on it. It was unbelievable. Having insurance is something everyone needs, but having usaa now thats a privilege. Were the bakers and were usaa members for life. Usaa. Get your insurance quote today. But mania, such as unusualrder can rchanges in your mood, activity or energy levels, can leave you on shaky ground. Help take control by asking your Healthcare Provider about vraylar. Vraylar treats acute mania of bipolar i disorder. Vraylar significantly reduces overall manic symptoms,. And was proven in adults with mixed episodes who have both mania and depression. 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