Hayes shows up here tomorrow at 9 00 i will tell you this im not going to leave him the office to have. I think chris can actually read that law that says that you are in charge of the 9 00 p. M. Hour and i understand that hes actually very happy in the 8 00 p. M. Hour. Well, you know, i think thats fair. I appreciate you starting this fight. B, i appreciate you taking my side. Looking ahead to the thing tomorrow like, i got to say, if i thought i was running an agency and somebody else showed up and said they were running it, first of all, i would never leave the building. And second of all, i would make sure that i was there earlier than the next guy. Like, if i was english, i would be at the cfpb at 4 00 a. M. As a former federal worker in washington, i was wondering things like how did mulvaney get an i. D. To the building and elevator . It is only Donald Trumps washington. Weve never seen this one before. It all gets weird in new ways every day. Thank you. Thank you. I expect to see you tomorrow night at 9 00 p. M. And i think you own on msnbc. Dukes up, i will be there. Thank you, rachel. Thank you, man. Well, we have known all that year that Michael Flynn has a story to tell and now one of the lawyers for former National Security adviser Michael Flynn met this morning with members of special prosecutor Robert Muellers team according to abc news. Abc news report did not cite any sources. That is very Big Development in the investigation. Nbc news has not verified that report. That abc report follows a report from the New York Times on thanksgiving day saying lawyers frr michael t. Flynn said they could not discuss the special investigation according to four people involved in the case and end kay case that mr. Flynn is cooperating with prosecutors or negotiating a deal. Michael flynns legal team had been sharing information with President Trumps lawyers about the Mueller Investigation as the New York Times explains, this is a common thing. Defense lawyers share information in investigations and must stop when doing so would pose a conflict of interest. It is unethical for lawyers to Work Together when one client is cooperating with prosecutors and another is still under investigation. The times reports that President Trumps lawyers now believe that, quote, mr. Flynn who with his son is seen as having significant criminal exposure has at the least begun discussions with mr. Mueller about cooperating. In march of this year, Michael Flynns lawyer publicly advertised that Michael Flynn was willing to tell his story if he could get an immunity deal and once the special prosecutor appointed in may, the only immunity deal that mattered was an immunity deal with the special prosecutor. In march, Michael Flynns lawyer said general flynn certainly has a story to tell. And he very much wants to tell it, should the circumstances permit. And so, the question tonight is, do the circumstances now permit Michael Flynn to tell that story to special prosecutor Robert Mueller . During the president ial campaign, Michael Flynn offered this insight as to what he thinks an immunity deal means. When you are given immunity, you have probably committed a crime. Robert mueller is investigating a private meeting Michael Flynn had with former Russian Ambassador kislyak and jared culturer in and investigating other conversations of flynn and russians including one the Russian Ambassador as the Obama Administration was unveiling sanctions in december against russia in retaliation for interfering in the 2016 election. Months after President Trump fired Michael Flynn, trump was still praising him. This man has served for many years. Hes a general. Hes in my opinion, a very good person. Today the Washington Post reports that Michael Flynns legal issues could be further complicated by a june 2015 trip to egypt and israel paid for by a u. S. Company that hoped to build Nuclear Plants in the region in partnership with russian interests. Michael flynn was advising that company as the post reports he apparently failed to disclose his ties to that effort. Quote, Congressional Democrats say that flynn may have violated federal law by failing to disclose the middle eastern trip in his security clearance renewal application in 2016. Joining us now, joyce vance, professor of university of Alabama School of law and a former federal prosecutor. Also with us, david frum, Senior Editor for the atlantic. Professor vance, what do you make of the new report of Michael Flynns counsel not cooperating with other defense counsel and the abc report indicating that Michael Flynns counsel actually met today with special prosecutor muellers team . So taken together and if true, those two reports would seem to signal that flynn has definitely withdrawn from a joint defense agreement. In fact, we hear from trumps lawyers that that joint defense agreement, which is an agreement that targets or subjects of an investigation, conspiracy, will form together so that they can share information but retain its shielding from disclosure to the prosecution via the Attorney Client privilege, typically you have to withdraw from that type of an agreement once you begin to negotiate a plea deal, a cooperation deal, with prosecutors. It locks like thats whats going on here. Its just difficult to know whether its still being negotiated or whether its been firmed up. And, david frum, we have a report from the New York Times that indicates Michael Flynn may be more concerned with his son than is safe for the Trump Administration. It says, mr. Flynn regarded as loyal to mr. Trump but he has in recent weeks experienced concern that prosecutors will bring charges against his son who served as his fathers chief of staff and was part of several financial deals involving the elder mr. Flynn and mr. Mueller scrutinizing and, david frum, i dont think you want someone trying to choose between his son and donald trump if youre donald trump. Donald trump might make a difference choice about his children. Sure would. Here, the flynn and flynn jr. Relationship is very transparent. One of the things i i think a lot of people have had this question. The trump flynn relationship is really baffling. Think of this. Have you ever heard donald trump say anything nice about his Vice President pence . Nice about his about any member of miss cabinet . He sometimes has nice things to say about james mattis but not as secretary. Nothing to say nice to about the secretary or state and the first lady of the United States, his wife. For Michael Flynn, theres praise after praise after praise. Now, maybe this is an exception to the rule that donald trump does not have warm, human feelings, but there is this is the big sort of pirates chest of mystery, the trump flynn relationship. What is going on there . Its something to borrow the president s language, very, very special. Professor vance, i want to go to your experience as prosecutor. This is something that david said that prosecutors do Pay Attention to because theres a certain assumption of limited or no communication at this time like this between possible defendants, say possibly donald trump and Michael Flynn, but you become very interested in what communication you actually can pick up and it is very smart of donald trump in this limited context to be constantly praiseful of Michael Flynn. In other words, to say nothing, to do nothing to in any way alienate Michael Flynn . The efforts of keeping flynn on board hes didnt it in a very public way. I dont have any doubt that bob mueller has someone on his team to track these sorts of communications, whether theyre on twitter or other kinds of public pronouncements and could they ultimately provide some evidence of intent, state of mind, even of obstruction . I i think its premature to tell but certainly this level of interaction has to be something that the lawyers of the president telling him to avoid to do and yet he seems drawn to do it again and again. David frum, from the very beginning of the year, say, starting in march, when this issue started to get worthy of serious investigation, it seemed very clear that Michael Flynn was the most Vulnerable Person in the Trump Administration to possible criminal investigation, criminal indictment. And yet, here we are at this distance into it and it does seem as though this white house gets surprised by the obvious, the ultimate indictment of Paul Manafort after there was a raid at his home which indicated this was imminent. They still seem surprised when what seems inevitable actually happens. Well, their lawyer ty cobb endlessly ensuring them this investigation doesnt have much further to go and everything at a happy resolution for them. I dont know whether thats ty cobbs Client Management or whether ty cobb believes it or maybe he does have information and federal prosecutors not normally in the habit were not about to indict you or on the verge of closing the investigation. I want to point to something and this is a point you have often made, lawrence, about remember this all started with Michael Flynn having a conversation with Russian Ambassador but not renewing sanctions in a Trump Administration. The senate has voted overwhelmingly. The congress voted overwhelmingly to reimpose the sanctions and the president used the discretion to not allow them and not in effect almost at the beginning of december. The promise to the Russian Ambassador honored. Theres something here more than just a legal story. Theres also a big Foreign Policy story. Joyce, thats such an interesting point that david makes. Are prosecutors looking at that . Are they actually looking at the policy choices that the president is making that are within his legal discretion but do seem to favor russia . Do they look at that as theyre investigating the possibility of russian influence . They have to be doing that. David makes a really good point and i think the ultimate impact of what hes saying is, are we looking with flynn just at a failure to register or something far more involved, more detrimental to u. S. Interests here . Could there, in fact, be some sort of a quid pro quo that impacted policy in the United States . You know, one place that muellers team starts i suspect is sally yates very carefully tailored public testimony bending over backwards to avoid disclosing anything classified and repeatedly referred to flynn as being compromised and that suggests that theres something here to look at and that that those policy choices may, in fact, be evidence of an agreement previously made with a foreign government. David frum, should donald trump be questioned about this by the special prosecutor at some point he would be could be asked about his conversations with barack obama who as president was saying to donald trump, dont hire this guy. The one piece of personnel advice is, do not hire Michael Flynn. Well, gerald ford volunteered to testify to congress. George w. Bush spoke voluntarily to the 9 11 commission. Its always a complicated question to force a president to talk but president s have historically when it came time volunteered to talk and it will be an interesting question whether donald trump volunteers. David frum and joyce vance, thank you both very much for joins us tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Coming up, only in Donald Trumps washington could you have two people thinking theyre in charge of the same federal agency on the same day. Bargnani frank whose legislation created that agency joins us next. And, President Trump has managed to revive the access Hollywood Video that came out during the campaign showing him boasting about the favorite methods of Sexual Assault and even access hollywood had to do a special comment on their show tonight. When food is good and clean and real, its ok to crave. And with panera catering, theres more to go around. Panera. Food as it should be. Only in Donald Trumps washington could two people each believe that each of them is the head of the same federal agency on the same day. That happened today when the president sent his budget director to work as the head of the Consumer FinancialProtection Bureau which is in the business of doing what its title suggests protecting consumers. The job became vacant on friday when the director obama appointee resigned. According to the law that established the consumer Protection Bureau, such a vacancy should be filled by the Deputy Director and english and she was promoted to the position with the expectation that she would become acting director when he left. The Trump Administration is citing a 1998 law to allow the president in some cases to designated acting directors of federal agencies simply by choosing virtually anyone who is already working in the administration. Senator warren who was an original advocate of the very idea of a consumer Protection Bureau said this today. Dodd frank was written to provide its own Succession Plan and that was a decision for congress to make. Not for the president to make. But for congress to make. So the statute is very clear. It says that theres a director and if the director is unavailable the Deputy Director become it is acting director. Done. Theres no vacancy here for the president to be able to fill. Joining us now, the coauthor of dodd frank, barney frank, former congressman of massachusetts, former chairman of the House Financial Services committee. So, can you settle this for us . Whos right . Whose job is this . We clearly intended it to be i think english at this point. The context is very important. When we created the Consumer FinancialProtection Bureau, we took Consumer Protection from all the other Bank Agencies, Consumer Protection was an afterthought to the main issue of every other bank agency. Counter intuitively the regulator with the most statute authority was the Federal Reserve. I think highly of what they have done in many areas but no, theyre not up there to protect the people diddled from wells fargo center. They dont have contact with consumers. They have a Consumer Bureau but its look. We asked them at one hearing when some of them contesting this, we tried to review the record. There was no evidence that consumer matters have ever been discussed at a meeting of the Federal Reserve board of governors. This seemed fairly conclusive. So we wanted to set up this agency but we understood that it would be facing enormous political pressures and following a precedent. The fact is that the right wing hate the idea of Consumer Protection and exaggerate it. Its ideological with them, lawrence. Its the people to whom the idea that there could be flaws in capitalism is deeply disturbing. Dick durbin, a great leader on the issue, said they hate it like the devil hates holy water. Thats a very good analogy. Do they believe in your private conversations with them that bankers are mononorible men . Yes. They want to do well. They are trying. And they also believe that youre paid too high a price if you stop the mistakes because good things wont happen. All of the Bank Agencies have this independence. The control of the currency, the federal deposit and the Federal Reserve. None of them are subject t