Because regardless to what, he will not die in vain. Both gardners mother and widow say theyre determined to get justice. In this case, regardless of your opinion, the grand jury is part of our Justice System. One of the Big Questions raised here is whether that system should be different when an officer is involved. It is the grand debate as we are calling it. We will get to that discussion in a moment. But first, msnbc is standing on the Staten Island sidewalk where gardner was killed. Run us through the details of the response we just got from the d. A. s request. Reporter so just moments ago, i spoke with ben garner, eric garners father. And i was the first to let him know that a decision had been made. Some of the information contained in the grand jury will be released. I told them about the 50 witnesses, the 22 of whom were civilians, there were 60 exhibits. And he said, quite frankly, not one of them stepped up to save my son, so none of it matters. That was his feeling. I spoke with a friend of eric garners about the grand jury proceedings and heres what he had to say. Got 23 people who actually seen clippings of this guy getting murdered. Then you see the cop say what he has to say. Doesnt take away the fact that what happened, what happened. There was an action, and in that action, someone died. There has to be some type someone has to be accountable. Reporter and so there we have it. Theres a little bit of information come out from the grand jury. No real revelations. And also, nothing to cool the feelings here on the ground where so many watched eric garner die. And countless others saw on video eric garner take his last breath. For a lot of folks, none of this information lets take a deeper look at the Justice System from the Police Perspective and the federal level. For that, we are joined by matthew miller, former aide to attorney general holder and vice chair of the National Black police association. Shes a 27year veteran Police Officer and the president of philadelphia chapter of the nbpa. Thank you, both, for being with us. Thank you for inviting me. No one watches this tape and says to themselves, eric garner deserved to die here. You have all walks of life. People of every color, democrats, republicans, libertarians questioning how the Justice System couldve gotten this so wrong. That includes us also. Nobody should say that he deserved to die for just such a petty situation. Everybody, im sickened. Does that mean you think he should have been indicted . He should have been charged with something. Because you have a situation where a choke hold is outlawed in your city. And you use it. Neglect. We dont think the officer went out there to intentionally try to kill the person. There was some neglect there. You had a person using the outlaw choke hold, and then somebody dies. There was a medical emergency that nobody paid attention to here. So were not saying he went out to kill them, but thats what happened. And you used the situation that your Department States that you shouldnt use. So there should have been an indictment on neglect if not anything else. Isnt this a different situation . Youve covered this for years now where civil rights charges may go into play after this. Well, thats the next step. State and local laws are not holding up their end of the bargain of just fairness for everybody. So you have to go to the federal government. Most africanamericans in this country feels as though thats where they have to go when they have to deal with the Justice System. Its a shame because they should be able to do to deal with it in their own cities and states. This proves right now that they cant. Matt, whats your take on that. You know, i think when you look at these cases, it takes two things to bring indictment. You have to have the will as a prosecutor to bring the case and you have to have the evidence. Everyones seen the evidence in this case. More than enough to support an indictment. And i think what the prosecutor didnt have was the will to bring it. I think youre going to see a different outcome here with the federal review thats going on. Different than what youre likely to see in ferguson. In this case, the Justice Department has the will to bring the indictment and i think theyll have the evidence. And i think at the end of this, theyre going to conduct a full, thorough investigation. But i think its likely in this case, youll see federal civil rights charges against this officer. A lot of serious talk about changing policing in america today. Attorney general holder in cleveland talking about the results of a doj investigation which found a pattern of inappropriate Excessive Force by the Cleveland Police department. We have mayor de blasio talking about retraining new york Police Officers to deescalate situations and to not use force whenever possible. But we know that these situations are not happening an equal amount across the country. Theyre happening in certain neighborhoods and black neighborhoods and not in other neighborhoods. A lot of Police Officers in new york have told me theres a level of fear they feel in black neighborhoods they dont feel in other neighborhoods. And that means they act more aggressively, they strike first, they strike harder. They want to make sure they get control of a situation where in other neighborhoods they would allow more latitude. Do you think thats a big part of the problem here . Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Because anybody in neighborhood can come at you whatever way. Whether its black, white, hispanic neighborhood. I think thats unfair thinking on their part. Because if you get lax in another neighborhood where you think somebodys not as aggressive in one neighborhood to the other, then youre likely to get yourself hurt. You need to think this straight through. You cant just decide this neighborhood im going to be more aggressive and not in the other. Thats why most of the country, most people of color think they are being treated unfairly when it comes down to police. They have this fear of police, and they shouldnt be. It should not be. So when you say that, you automatically put yourself in a situation where youre going to treat people of color differently. And it shouldnt be that. Yeah. Very strong words there. And, matt, i wanted to get your take on whats going on there right now. We heard from attorney general eric holder today about the findings of that investigation into the Cleveland Police department and the finding they did engage in a pattern and practice of using Excessive Force. We know the doj has opened more than 20 of these internal investigations in Police Departments across the country. I suspect when that when those investigations were open, there was no expectation they would become as highprofile as they are now. Talk to us about how that changes the work thats being done in the department of justice and whether there was ever that expectation that they would be this high profile. Yeah, you know, you have to go back to the beginning of the administration where it took a while to really rebuild the civil rights division. It had been decimated in the previous administration. And weve seen in the last few days why its so important to have a civil rights division. But the attorney general slowly built it back up, started opening these types of cases, and i think as theyve as the investigations have gone forward and as weve seen the results become public, whats become clear is that the problem of this type of policing its not a ferguson problem, its not a new york problem, not a cleveland problem. There have been investigations that have brought about tough reforms in new orleans and seattle and Police Departments all across the country. It really is a problem that happens far more than it should across america and its why we need a strong Civil Rights Department that can come in and investigate these Police Departments when theyre overreacting. And its not to say they all are. And to Institute Real serious reforms. Yeah. And that was the issue just moments ago with mayor de blasio and commissioner bratton speaking here. Lets take a listen to what the mayor said. The response by the nypd was the right one. It was smart, strategic, agile. A lot of restraint was shown. When necessary arrests were made. You saw a very peaceful night in new york city despite the frustration and the pain that so many people are feeling, you saw a peaceful protest. You saw a minimum of disruption. Give credit to everyone involved, but i particularly give credit to the nypd for having managed the situation so appropriately. The mayor there clearly giving credit where he thinks its due. And also for those of us who follow in ferguson, a clear contrast here in the way that nypd in its work and also obviously credit to many of the protesters, an organized group in what they consider their work coming out last night and protesting. And we see these images. They were out near a Tree Lighting ceremony here, they were out in time square. They held what they called a, quote, dyein in Grand Central station. All of this and the police trying to keep things calm. How do the police play that dual role here. Especially if some of them do feel sympathy with the officer as they go out and try to patrol these kind of protests fairly and uniformly. Most police are professionals. Lets say 95 of them do their job and do it right. And they are lawabiding citizens and go home at night. What they showed here in new york city was restraint. And they know exactly what to do. Did you notice, nobody died. Even when they had to arrest some people for disorderly conduct. Nobody died. They showed great restraints. And i give kudos to new york city Police Officers, they did a great job last night. Great point to end on. Thank you both for your time. Coming up this hour, we have all of the angles of this developing story covered with guests who know of what they speak. Next, representative Gregory Meeks has been a new york prosecutor. Now he serves in congress. Well ask him what can be done here. Plus, no justice, no peace. What is justice here . And is the legal system as it is built to deliver that . The ferguson comparison protests with the same Mission Weeks apart play out differently in missouri and new york. Why was that . And the politics, president obama is striking a slightly different tone this time. But its an important shift. Thats all ahead as the cycle rolls on. Thursday, december 4th. Well, did you know genies can be really literal . No. What is your wish . No. Ok. A million bucks oh no. Geico. 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Im there to do the safest job possible not only for them, but everybody, myself included that lives in the community. Im very proud to do the work that i do and say that i am a lineman for pg e because its my hometown. Its a rewarding feeling. Welcome back, we are here in the guest spot with a man who knows multiple sides of what happened in these kind of cases like the garner investigation. Gregory meeks, also a former prosecutor. Good day, congressman. Good day to you. Let me start with an important piece you know all about, which is the way that prosecutors have to rely on local police and whether at times that creates the kind of conflict or pressure that we dont want in a fair system. Take a listen to a discussion between reverend al sharpton and eric garners lawyer just last night. Explain why a federal investigation whether its ferguson, whether its cleveland, and i talked to the father of that 12yearold last night. Whether its Staten Island. Why is this important now. Weve seen in the cases over the years. They rely on the police to make their cases. They cant be objective. Weve seen that in other cases. Its playing itself out here. And thats why you need an independent review of it. Is that right . It could be. Listen, theres big problems here. Generally when you have a Police Officer and a d. A. Who feels they dont have the evidence, they p dont take it to the grand jury. They stand up and say, i dont have the evidence and they dont present the case. Or, if theyre too close, they excuse them, recuse themselves. Something went wrong. Even in the other cases, i looked at sean bell, a number of other cases, at least there was an indictment in the problem that we had was with the petty jury. Here, amazingly, you dont have an indictment where the standard is so low to and complete control by the d. A. When you go into a grand jury room, the d. A. Has complete control. He decides what questions. Theres no judge there. Its all upon the d. A. In this instance, especially with the videotape, you cant tell me you couldnt have gotten an indictment. And i want to know what took place in that grand jury room because a d. A. Can give instructions will give instructions to the jury, and those instructions can either urge a jury to either indict or not to indict. Right. And i would like to know what took place here. And congressman, we dont know what took place in that room. And we probably arent going to. We got a selective release of information today with some vague generalities about the grand jury process. What do you make of the fact that unlike in ferguson where we got a full release of information, we know very, very little about what happened here. I think thats why as part of the investigation that the attorney general is conducting that he needs to that investigation should also include what took place in the grand jury room and the roles of the d. A. S here as well as in ferguson to see if there was any impropriety in these particular cases, to see if these when you look at ferguson when it seems clear theres been a history in the past of the d. A. With a victim of his family and a Police Officer, there seems to be something that was gone on there. Seems like it should have been a case where he recused himself. In new york, you have no idea. And i think the evidence speaks for itself. There should be an investigation. Clearly there was a homicide as determined by the medical examiner. There was illegal choke hold against police procedures, and the individual that the Police Officer, there was a tape that gave you physical evidence of what took place. If you cant indict with that, then there is a major problem. And clearly, what upsets, you know, you add on top of that that this d. A. Had no problem because the only person that is indicted is the individual that took the video right. Of the garner situation. It was unbelievable. We have to mention. On separate gun charges, not thats correct. Nothing to do with it. We know that, yes, we have a problem and it is nationwide. It is not about ferguson and Staten Island. This is coast to coast. We could have this conversation almost any month of the year going back and Going Forward. We have a nation where black people feel little to no confidence that the police will protect and serve us and that the Justice System will back us up if something goes wrong. This is part of how we have two separate societies living in the same nation and not how americas supposed to be. Well, youre absolutely right. Ive said and said often, we are the first country to criticize other countries for human right violations. You know, here in congress we have resolution after resolution. As soon as we see somebody not being treated fairly. In fact, we still have a a embargo with cuba claiming Human Rights Violations. Right here in the united states, we have Human Rights Violations. We saw one in Staten Island, we saw one in cleveland, ohio, we saw one in ferguson, missouri. All within the last 30, 45 days. Right here in the united states, thats an issue that we have to deal with. The Human Rights Violations of africanameric