0 information, illegal or inappropriate? >> inappropriate. >> we'll hear from one of the committee members in a moment. first let's start with luke russert. what did we learn today? >> well, two things. number one, most importantly was that the irs in may of 2012ç w aware of these improper things going on in terms of political targeting. that work wres doing it to make their job more simple and easier. it was not approved, they say, by the higher ups. they are investigating this matter. a lot of members on both sides were upset with that. they believe this is the tip of the iceberg. a lot more information will come out next week in regard to who knew what and when. number two thing we learned today, toure, this got political the applications for the status of these ç50 wo1 c 3s and 4's. people who took shortcuts weren't appropriately supervised and held accountable. i am concerned about the long term. we don't want any sense that we can't rely on the integrity of the irs. but congress should stop making the job harder and maybe out of this we'll have a good idea of some things going forward. not only to protect the integrity of the program but improve the service. right now with sequestration. >> you have the cuts from racing and you have the antipathy toward the united states. is that why these policy concerns have fallen on deaf ears? how do they get ahead of this for the next time? >> well, that's why i raised the point. we really haven't discussed in any detail at all about these increasing strains on administering a very complex tax code which we keep making more complicated. i am hoping that out of this, not only do we make sure that the irs is doing its job right, that people are heldç accountae if they've made mistakes and certainly if anything is illegal, which hasn't been shown yet. but if it is, they pay the penalty. we need to make sure there is integrity going forward. we rely on the american people to voluntarily comply. the overwhelming majority of them do. anything that undercuts that confidence or makes it harder to administer is shooting ourselves in the foot. >> congressman, i got a couple things i want to get to with you. i have to say i love that bicycle pin. that is sharp. it looks great. >> it's bike to workday. >> there you go. i love it. you mentioned the complexity of the tax code. and it strikes me that one of the underlying issues here is how hard it is to judge whether a group should be a tax-exempt 501(c)(4) or not. so the murkiness of that definition which has changed over time has created additional issues. let me get great lawrence o'donnell has been talking about this change to further explain how this transformation has happened. >> the code itself defines 501(c)(4) social welfare organizations as, civic leagues or organizations not organized for profit but operatedç exclusively, exclusively for the promotion of social welfare. the interpretation guidelines of that irs say this as of 1959. to be operated exclusively to promote social welfare and organization, must operate primarily to further the common good and general welfare of the people of the community. the irs changed in effect the word exclusively to primarily with no authority whatsoever. >> so congressman, would it be fruitful to return to that orange definition which says it must be exclusively for social welfare for the purpose of social welfare? or is there another further clarification of this definition which would help alleviate this problem? >> i think we would all be better off if we go back to the wording of the statute and the orange interpretation of when we have this aftermath, the super pacs, we've got more than enough money. we don't need secret money. we don't need to use tax advantage money. i would strongly urge that we go back to that orange regulation. clear this off will get out of this never never land and not haveç the illusion that we'll split hairs here on this. >> yes. absolutely i agree. and potentially, a good thing as i think treasury could make that change on their own so it wouldn't necessarily have to get grid locked. and looking back at the hearings today, do you feel like the questions you had about this incident have been answered sufficiently thus far? >> well, we have more information coming. there is some clarification. you have people who have all sorts of things bounced off them. i thought the inspector general's report was straightforward and useful. let's look at any additional clarification. i walk away from the hearing with a pretty good idea, i think, of what was going on. i have concerns about both that definition we just talked about. we want to make sure that we are adequately staffing and training and that we hold people in management positions accountable. and i think all of that is going to come from today's hearing. >> all right. congressman, thank you very much. >> you bet. >> up next, washington held hostage. is it possible to get anything done when all eyes are on scandal patrol? we've got senator brown live with us next. heavy stuff for a friday. when does daylight come? 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