he says barr has begun describing new aspects of the mueller report calling it substantial but he didn't know how many pages. barr telling the top democrat he won't meet the tuesday deadline to turn the report over, but they will get it in a matter of weeks. and we're seeing this battle turn to how mueller's findings will come out. you may recall ken starr when he sent the boxes and boxes of evidence, he was operating under a different law, but the bottom line is at that time findings were going to the house. as i've explained, what that meant was that congress was in charge of no the only the big decisions, but the narrative. and so through key moments, it was janet reno not exactly in charge, it was of course the congress dealing where this. janet reno was not look at the questions of obstruction. >> just imagine if ken starr had hand that had report to janet reno instead of congress and january net january ne january eitheet reno did a four letter. >> and imagine if the starr report had been provided only to janet reno and she stated her conclusion that clinton committed for crimes. and now a key person, this is why the internet lets everyone talk about it quickly, a key person from that probe also weighing in. monica lewinsky replying saying if fing only. and she certainly experienced plenty of what happened in that investigation. bottom line is we are now seeing a few days into the workweek that four page letter isn't going to cut it for congress to make an informed judgment about what the president did. and so we're seeing lawmakers and jerrold nadler pushing on this tonight. and it makes you think of something that the r&b star once song about, about a four page letter that she wrote to get out her feelings. she needed the letter to express herself. four pages only. but this is a lot bigger than just someone's feelings, even someone as pounimportant as the attorney general. this is about facts. congress will need more than the four pages at least that is what we're hearing from some. democratic leaders. this is all about what she was going through and her father told her be careful who you choose to love. and the democrats still trying to be careful thinking about whether they put too much love or faith in the mueller investigation. but they won't know any of that until they get the results, the evidence from the mueller investigation. let's get to our experts. matt wiley and michelle goldberg. she has a new piece pointing that there is plenty of corruption. and what is your reaction to nadler presidenting barr getting this date that is breaking news tonight, a date fdate for testi. >> and is this a fact that is within barr's ability to get obviously. and the important thing about the page length is that it shows you when barr released whatever he is going to release, it will basically show you how much is missing. which is really important information. can i just say i have watched the last few days this whole thing go down with such open mouth astonishment at the way the media, the way kind of everybody is so quickly capitulated to this fwrrame tha was put ford by the republicans. they clearly decided in advance that they were going to declare case closed and anybody who questions it is a conspiracy theorist and you democrats put way too much faith in bob mueller. i mean maybe. but the idea that anybody should put any faith in the four page summary by a guy who was chosen explicitly because he already said that he thought the obstruction inquiry was bogus and has a history of covering up republican scandals, i mean it is just astonishing that anybody would give credence to what they are doing. >> isn't this a problem with washington and the media and the internet which is overreaction to overreaction. we've reported since friday, and i have a break down of this later in tonight's show, that when you finish a probe and you have no further indictments on conspiracy, that is a significant point and we've been reporting that. and that is good news for the white house. that is separate from all the other stuff that would be in the report including the obstruction analysis which we know according to trump's own justice department does not exonerate. >> right. >> yeah. what michelle said. the point here is there has to be a public accounting. and if as drumbeat beating around the sort of highlight that has been interpreted by are barr to the public about the findings in the mueller report, which as a lawyer which i see cannot establish conspiracy or coordination with russia, to me then the question is how close did you get to the evidentiary line or are you really, really far from the evidentiary line of being able to show conspiracy. that is something that the public has to know. and saying that you could not establish it does not tell us whether it was exonerated. especially when in a different part of the letter you use the word exonerate. >> what does it mean to you that barr is make these choices? because he can do this. he is within his lawful authority. but it seems like it could be a tell. for example, we'll put up on the screen, we know the length of the past reports. starr report in 400s of pages. iran contra, 500 some. and mueller, a question mark. and when we learn that nadler's best effort to press a person was to, quote, say it is very substantial, does that sound to you like over 100 pages? why hide this? >> i think michelle called it. fwraul, that is a fact that is a simple fact that technically you can do a freedom of information act request on to say just give me the answer to this fact. and as a legal requirement, they have to tell you the answer to that fact. and i think michelle is right, on reason not to share that fact is because you are trying to -- you are trying to obfuscate rather than being transparent. remember at his confirmation hearing he said i believe in transparency, i think we should be as transparent as the law will allow. >> and we didn't have the page count. and i just got an update from the control room according to what nadler is furthering out is that he may now be in possession of a further briefing from barr on the agreement or on the expectation of not releasing it. so they both may know the page count now, but we don't. the american public doesn't yet. and this goes also to the question that i've been posing. we have talked to witnesses and fact witnesses and players in in probe from the start. and some of them are controversial. and some of them are habitual liars. sometimes people say why even talk to them. well, this is one of those times this week where we look i think pretty thoughtfully on the money for having talked to them this whole time because it gave us insight. it gave us a sense of what they were doing. some of them may have lied for no reason. some of them may have been arrogant. today mark talked about what he saw which was acts that really made him panic he says because they were so close to obstruction even if its of for no good reason. meaning an accepts conspiracy for yoconspiracy -- absent conspiracy. listen to this analysis. >> i pointed out that the statement was inaccurate and that there were documents that i understood there were documents that would prove that. hope hicks replied to me when i said that there are documents and she said nobody is ever going to see those documents. which made my throat dry up immediately. at that point i just said mr. president, we can't talk about this any more, you have to talk to your lawyers. >> to me the question is what hope hicks told mueller, right? i mean if hope hicks lied to -- she kind of said that she was going to lie. if she actually did lie, we know she lied to reporters, if she actually lied to investigator, then why hasn't there been a criminal referral for her. and so again, i think it is why we learn not just about -- it is so crucial that we learn not just why mueller decided not pursue obstruction, whether it was just because he thought that it should be left to congress which is the proper place. that is the proper place for these things to be adjudicated. but then we get all the details, all the things that he was weighing when he considered whether or not an obstruction charge might be warranted. >> yeah, i keep getting stuck on this point that that -- when you hear that clip, it is really hard to understand why robert mueller did not say for political reasons i think that i'm not the person -- i don't think this is the process for resolution what you we couldnbe in-g d indict anyway. and this is why we can't just have a filter of attorney general barr. >> but i think that they successfully at least for now create this had political sense that democrats -- this has been a big embarrassment for them and if they keep litigating this, it will seem like they are grasping for straws or going down rabbit holes. so i think that they have successfully created a dis disincentive to get to the bottom of what happened. >> i have to fit in a break. thank you both. coming up as promised, i have a special report on what we know and what we don't know about the mueller report. some people are calling it confusing. we'll get right down to the facts. and then my interview with two mueller witnesses who got married during all of this brought together by what they describe as an alleged spy who has since vanished. you both met this mehsud character who is now missing in action. and they don't really believe you guys? >> we end up thinking that we killed him. no. >> as a journalist, i'll ask, did you have anything do with his disappearance? that is tonight. and as if that wasn't enough, eric holder is back. our discussion that has not aired before about criminal justice reform, family separations and what democrats can do he says to make democracy more fair. you're watching the beat. watcht they see us as profits. we're paying the highest prescription drug prices in the world so they can 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special counsel mueller finished his probe on friday. how does this end? comedians have started saying the punch line is that all of this is really confusing. >> all i know is i haven't been this confused about an ending since the series finale of lost. really, it is kind of funny though. half of america is upset that our president didn't collude with russia. seems like we should probably be happy about that. >> kimmel captures two points there. it is a good thing for america that there was no chargeable election conspiracy. and yes for some things may seem confusing. this is actually way more opaque than the show lost. if 3450u8lermueller's report is season finale of lost, then this goes to the most important thing about understanding mueller's findings. we don't have them yet. but like any special counsel probe, we've always known that our two main legal mechanisms to assess what mueller found. indictments which show where there was evidence enough to charge people criminally and the mueller report. and now tonight as of this moment people only have one of these things so far, the indictments. and they reveal everything mueller found that he could criminally charge. so when the probe ended friday, we knew anything that had not been charged was not getting charged by mueller. and that is a point we reported up front friday and throughout this busy weekend for legal news. he did not find chargeable collusion conspiracy. there was not a collusion conspiracy. it is time to acknowledge there is no chargeable collusion. that was all bike end and that was good news for trump. and for the nation. and we know that from the indictments. it also undercuts trump critics who were insisting that there was major a collusion conspiracy before the criminal evidence was in. it does not legally undercut any of the previous extensive work done by mueller who busted a crime spree by trump advisors ranging from trump's lawyer to his longest serving political adviser. mueller so effective his work has already resulted in trump having the highest rate of indictments for his aides than any president ever. this fact co-exists with no chargeable conspiracy. so the crimes charged on your screen are a reminder of why it is odd for trump fans to celebrate a lot about the probe this week. trump busted for hiring more crooks than most presidents ever do in two full terms. and that is just the american side. he also indicted 12 russians, an operation that the sitting president would still go on to deny. so if you take what we know from the indictments, there are still these major questions that remain that are mysterious like why so many lies if there was no conspiracy. >> why would donald trump lie about russia? what was the breaks to repopres? they lied about the russians nonstop for two years. >> nonstop lies. according to one of my colleagues there. and he makes a very good point. mueller's finished, so it makes you want to ask these people around trump why were you lying? i did that exact thing. i asked that question when we had the first person ever convicted in the mueller broeb probe on, george papadopoulous last night for his first msnbc appearance ever. >> do you understand why people watching this find this to be hard to believe you because during the probe, you were down playing all these russian contacts. now there is no chargeable collusion and people are thinking why did you play it down? >> i tried to explain it. i was trying to distance myself from my i guess stupid activities and i didn't want to involve other people. >> okay. for some lower level people the lies were to cover their quote stupid activities or mistakes. that is some people. for other trump associates lying to the government seemed second nature. when i pressed jerome corsi about his original plan to help roger stone mislead congress, he admitted their original attempt. they were going to lie. and he said he ultimately told mueller's investigators the truth about that lie. how did they react to the other defense that you made on behalf of roger stone which you agreed to help roger mislead congress about how he found out about podesta? >> see in fact that was the -- there are two rounds of this. round one, i openly discussed that with them and admitted it all. because it was true. i was telling the truth. >> you were telling them the truth about a lie. >> no. okay, yes. >> yes. he admitted it lto lying. and then the more senior trump advisors convicted of construction crimes likelying to investigators or congress which were linked to coverups related to trump. think of cohen or manafort. michael cohen lied to congress about things that weren't indicted in this probe such as how they sought business in moscow and lied to the public about it. cohen also misled the public about things that were crimes. michael cohen misled the public about what he later confessed to, a campaign finance crime. now, until we see the mueller report, we don't know what mueller found about other things that people may have 2r50id hae cover up. for example, what drove trump's glowing embrace of putin in helsinki. what drove trump to braef tief russian officials about firing james comey? why did trump personally dictate the statement that misled the public about the infamous trump tower meeting? those things sound like potential evidence of obstruction of justice because those things are potential evidence of obstruction of justice. trump's own attorney general concedes that they are evidence of potential obstruction of justice. because in the very little that he did release about mueller's report, he still told the world, a, mueller included evidence much obstruction against trump. and, b, miller conclue mueller trump was not exonerated on obstruction. so this week no chargeable conspiracy, open case on obstruction. preet bharara cites that mueller clearly found substantial evidence of obstruction. >> with respect to the second part of the mueller report on obstruction, i think that is where there is some troublesome language in the letter. it is clear that bob mueller found substantial evidence of obstruction. almost by definition there is substantial evidence if you think it is such a close question you can't make a decision about whether or not the president committed a crime. bob mueller made it clear to say this does not exonerate the president. so that raises a lot of questions. >> substantial evidence. like trump pressing comey not to investigate mike flynn who later confessed to a crime. like trump firing comey with a written false reason. then trump confessing the real reason was russia. like trump attacking comey's replacement mccabe in driving him out of the doj or trump attacking mueller's entire probe or discouraging people from cooperating with law enforcement or calling them rats. or praising criminal defendants who didn't testify honestly. or talking up the pardon power in the miflgtd probe. or asking white house staff to fire bob mueller, something nixon famously tried as well. people do jail time for far less than that. ask michael cohen. or ask paul manafort in whichever jurisdiction you want. so the special counsel already probed that. and uncovered other secret obstruction evidence. and wrote it up in his report. anybody telling you that they have a view of that evidence without access to the report is not worth listening to. that includes trump defenders who are already claiming exoneration on obstruction that they didn't get even according it trump's own attorney general, but it also includes critic claiming that they know that mueller threw the book on the obstruction case. i know this part can be confusing. another way to put it is you just can't write a book report for a book you haven't read. so these remaining holes and questions are not a confusing defects in this process. they are the process until congress sees the report. so before friday no matter what was charged or not charged on conspiracy, let's just have some real talk. it is not like relegal experts were waiting around to fu bar shal selective quotes. barr can lawfully do that as i've mentioned in our reporting throughout, like it or not, the attorney general can share his views with congress and the public and even can see them. his views matter. he is the attorney general. he oversees the special counsel probe. but for learning what mueller found over his 22 month investigation, again, there are these two sources. indictments and the report. not the indictments, report and a weekend let frerter from a tr appointee. so the theme didn't have to be confusing. i think it is administmore like. waiting for the report. and the bottom line here is that with mueller ending the probe with the 37 indictments, he closed the door on a charbl cha conspiracy. and i'll say it again because i do think some things are worth repeating, in an era when there is so much talk about who should stand up for facts or principles regardless of political pleasure, a sentiment often aimed at congressional republicans, this is a time for people to acknowledge no chargeable conspiracy. even if that doesn't agree with the given political angle or sentiment. it is a time to acknowledge mueller's findings and analysis on obstruction only can be assessed when we get them. so maybe this is more like a greater line from the social network movie where the character says if you were the in vents inventor of facebook, you would have invented facebook. and so the way to understand the findings is to wait auntil we se mueller's findings. i wanted to share that with you. and up ahead, we'll show you our interview with eric holder. and first our interview with these married mueller witnesses about a spy mystery and why they tell me that they might name their baby after, guess who, bob mueller. i switched to liberty mutual, because they let me customize my insurance. and as a fitness junkie, i customize everything, like my bike, and my calves. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ tailored recommendations, tax-efficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. fidelity wealth management. the mueller probe is over. the mueller report will go to congress within weeks. and some mueller witnesses are talking. from james comey weighing in tonight to george papadopoulous who famously pitched the trump/putin meeting and who helped spark the russian probe by talking to a diplomat about a conversation about yes clinton stolen emails. he also conferred with professor mehsud who was investigated as a potential spy for russian interests and who has since disappeared. the plot thickens further when you realize that that alleged spy became the link between papadopoulous and his wife who mueller also interviewed. tonight on the beat, we turn to both of these witnesses. thanks to both of you for sitting down with me together. >> nice to be back. thank you for inviting us. >> now we are here after seeing bob mueller find that there was no chargeable conspiracy. was that something you exhibi d expected all along? >> in the beginning, i was very confused.ibit expected all along? >> in the beginning, i was very confused. i didn't know what to expect and i could not conclude that anything -- >> early on you were open to the idea that who knows what they will find? >> yes. and i always had as a direct witness involved in the investigation interviewed by the fbi. i always said that there were many professionals doing a very accurate job. i mean they really did. because they knew me naked. i mean anything concerning my work in europe. they knew anything. so my perception was that they were very accurate. and probably this report is the result of such accuracy. from my point of view. >> there was this vindividual mehsud that we've heard a bit about. we wonder whether the ultimate mueller report will detail what was going on with him. it appeared early on, george, walk us through that, that you and him were talking about a crime. i don't think that is in debate. the question was the fruits of that crime. the hacking of the clinton emails. explain. >> yeah, so how did i meet joseph mehsud. she actually knew him for years before i first met him. so i met him in rome. i think i mentioned it earlier. through a lady who was the fbi's counsel in the uk. >> so is it a coincidence that you met him separately? >> yes. >> i know where you're going with this. >> our life is full of coincidences. >> do you understand -- >> i do. >> people look at this and they look at the two of you and now you're married and you both met this mehsud character who is now missing in action and they don't really believe you guys? >> thinking that we killed him. no. >> as a journal it's, i'll ask, did you have anything to do with his disappearance? >> no. no. that is not -- but the fact that is highly suspicious and my in-due six that it is definitely linked to some sort of intelligence. >> he is linked to somebody's intelligence service. >> i'm pretty confident to say it is western intelligence. >> here is the thing about that. the idea that he might be a spy who is up to no good is one conclusion. to you have th do you have that view of him? >> yes. >> yes. >> and then the idea of who he is a spy for or a double agent or tricking people. if a spy is goodgood, by defini you're not supposed to know who he is working for. >> i provided with some factual related to his known connection which are putin's government, clintons, which lead me to playoff that they had no interest whatsoever to help trump win telection. i know mehsud for years. and i come from a very different background than george. >> you r whwhen did you specifie could be a spy? >> when he hired me. >> so he knowingly worked for him when he -- >> i started to perceive what was going on and that is why i left after three months. and david i definitely s today i see that it was definitely a coverup. >> and when did you realize that you had met him independently? >> so i started to think that there is something off about the guy, he is up to no good, i didn't characterize him as a spy exactly, but just maybe somebody with inside info. because he was very well connected around the world. at least that is what he told me. i started to think about that when he told me about the hacked emails. >> too well connected for a random professor? >> yes, just like the professor from cambridge who was also well connected. so a story of a lot of coverups, a lot of disinformation out there. but i will say that mueller did give us the golden nugget occurring my acceduring the sen memo where he stated that george papadopoulous was under the impression that mehsud was a russian agent. he left to my discretion. basically saying that this guy was fooled in to believing that he was a russian agent. >> well, let's get into it. mulely didneller didn't want to hand, so he is referring to your belief which might go to your actions. but he is not saying either way. and you've said that mueller bra operates professionally. when we talked about this during the probe, you were both mueller witnesses, you basically said they were honorable and factual. and so they can't then also be trapping you. >> i had experience with the mueller team, and they talked about my russian origins, my being a send and my role in this -- the spy wife. no, they were always very professional, very factual. and there were many coincidences. i finished working for mehsud who is the one starting the russian gate and married george. and i do it in a very specific moment. i deliver to -- >> you realize this is weird, right? >> it is super weird. >> super weird. okay. at least we can all agree on that. >> you want to name your future baby -- >> joseph mueller. no, i'm not joking. but i understand now that it is very old. and i respect the work and the interest. of course i come from a political background -- >> that's what we have to call it. you respect their work so they are not trying to trap your husband. >> but i started to notice a number of discrepancies. so they were concerned to know how much i knew about if a sued or sued -- mehsud or if i was working with mehsud. >> so something you still haven't answered. when did you talk to each other and realize you had incidentally met mehsud? >> i was working on the campaign i think it was july 2016. two months after that, she is then working for this will not did not cent lon door centdon center for int law practice and i contact her and i thought she was hot and so i'm like you're working at this place but i want for ask you about this guy. what do you know about him. because i was starting to have suspicions. >> and in the beginning i was trying to understand not mehsud because at the time he was a professor, but he was connected, had the occasion to meet many times before. >> so you two would not have met, fell in love and gotten married without this now missing potentially alleged spy. >> that is true. it is correct. >> he is our cupid. what can i say. >> and sorry if something happened to him. >> as they say in the business, this is why you watch. >> this is why you watch. that is awesome. >> george papadopoulous, simona, thanks for being here. well, that was great and we have more. former attorney general eric holder, i interviewed him for the first time next and what his passion is, what he is devoting himself to and what he said republicans tried to do to obama. aid republicans tried to do to obama. i wanna keep doing what i love, that's the retirement plan. with my annuity, i know there is a guarantee. it's for my family, its for my self, its for my future. annuities can provide protected income for life. learn more at retire your risk dot org. they're america's biopharmaceutical researchers. pursuing 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[zara larsson - "wow"] ♪ ♪ baby i'm not even in a gown ♪ and the only thing u have to say is wow ♪ ♪ make you're jaw drop drop say oh my drop drop drop ♪ ♪ make u say oh my god my drop drop ♪ ♪ make you're jaw drop make u say oh my god ♪ ♪ and you never felt this type of emotion ♪ ♪ make you're jaw drop drop say oh my drop drop drop ♪ ♪ make u say oh my god my drop drop ♪ ♪ make you're jaw drop make u say oh my god ♪ at first slice pizza lovers everywhere meet o, that's good! frozen pizza one third of our classic crust is made with cauliflower but that's not stopping anyone o, that's good! now we turn to my exclusive interview with former attorney general eric holder. you have worked in and out of office on the issues of racism, criminal justice and reform. we've talked about this before as you have with many people. let's look at something understand to me in our 2014 interview about mistakes in that field. take a look. >> we erred on the war in drugs in going too far with regard for some of the sentences. it is time to pull back just a bit. we need to have proportionate penalties. and the ability for recognition that you can make a mistake, rehabilitate yourself and come back and be a productive citizen. >> you call it smart on crime. we're five years later. how far along do you think america is on those reforms? halfway, less than halfway? >> well, i'd say that we should be in a much -- we should be further along than we actually are. the realty is that many reforms that i put in place were dismantled by jeff sessions. and that has put a real impediment to the progress that we should have made. the first step has certainly been passed. doesn't go nearly as far as what we did in the obama administration. >> can i ask you something you may not answer? i wonder whether you look at that and you think six years you were pounding the pavement to try to get bipartisan solutions. how do you feel about it happening now? >> it is interesting because it was a bipartisan issue. i remember having a meeting with my conference room where i had representatives of the koch brothers, tea party and center for american progress and everything was on the same page. and we couldn't get congress to do that which was -- which they have thousand down at least in part. >> is that because the republicans just didn't want you to succeed on that? >> a couple things. i think it was that. they didn't want bomb nidn't war to tuck sesucceed. and they wanted to say democrats were soft on crime. >> i want to show you the federal incarceration rates which is dropping as you may know down in 2016 to a rate of 860 from 1,000 per 100,000 adults. does that mean there is less punishment but racial injustices persist? >> it means that we are bringing incarceration down and more in line with the rest of the industrialized world. 5% of the people in the world live in the united states and 25% of all the people incarcerated around the are incarcerated here in the united states. i think we have to see whether or not we're making progress on the racial front. the rate of incarceration is down. i'd have to look at some statistics and see whether or not that imbalance, that racial imbalance that we saw certainly in the federal system where similarly situated defendants, a black sentence was 20% longer. >> and the bail system seems to punish the poor and minorities who are presumed as innocent as anyone else. you know the stats but i want to make sure people see african-americans more likely to have to pay cash bail. and african-american defendants tend to receive bhal amounts that are 10,000 greater than white defendants. how can that still be going on in america? >> well, let's start from the base race is still a prime determinant in this country. we've not gotten to the place where we need to be when it comes to dealing with all things racial. bobby kennedy in 1962 i believe it was held a conference on dealing with the bail problem. we did one 50 years later, bail. we here in d.c. detain on whether you are a danger to community and not likely to reappear for your next court appearance. that should be the standard. not your economic ability to come up with a cash boond. >> i'm thinking about the judges who assessed to paul manafort and people said one of the junes was go judges was good and the other wasn't. but both assessed him as this grandfatherly figure. judge jackson said that he didn't seem likely to reoffend. when mr. manafort had reoffended after his charges. and i thought would any judge -- again, i don't want to single a judge out. but would those judges be as likely to say that about a first time young black male offender? >> i don't want to talk about the judges in particular, but i do worry that judges are like all other americans, they carry with them implicit biases. >> how do you fix it? >> you certainly have to have training. you have to make people aware of the fact that they do carry these biases and make them understand that if you see an african-american defendant in front of you, that triggers something in your mind and that will maybe trigger something different than somebody who shows up in a tie and you would maybe cut that person a break that you wouldn't otherwise give to a hispanic or african-american defendant. people have to be aware of that. and then that training has to continue. but these are the kind of things that all of us as americans have to deal with. we all carry this racial baggage. the younger generation to a lesser degree, but it is still there. >> and in our limited time, i want to do restructuring. you are taking all of this experience and focused on redistricting. why? >> restwriricting happens everyn years. if you care about reproductive rights and criminal justice reform, if you care about health care, if you care about protecting the right to vote, stopping voter suppression, all of those things are dependent on who is in our state legislatures. we have these gerrymandered state lenlggislatures. look at wisconsin as an example. that does a whole variety of things. tries to shorten the number of days that people can vote, takes crazy positions when it comes to reproductive rights. doesn't pass sane gun safety measures. so if you care about those individual issues, my job is to make people understand that they are directly tied to redistricting. >> so this is bigger because it is underneath all of them. >> it is the foundation for all of these other concerns. and it is -- this whole question of making sure that everybody has the opportunity to vote and that their vote gets counted in an appropriate way, that is the civil rights issue i believe of our time. >> and there is a lot of talk about america being a leader as a democracy quote/unquote in the 1800s when women and african-americans koopts vote. >> and i hear let's make america great again and i'm thinking when did you think america was great. it certainly wasn't when people were enslaved. certainly wasn't when women didn't have the right to vote. certainly wasn't when the lgbt community was denied the rights to which it was sdilgentitled. it takes us back to an american past that never really in fact existed. america has done glats thinuone and has been a leader, but we are always a work in progress. and looking back, make america great again is inconsistent with who we are at our best when we look at the uncertain future, embrace it and make it our own. >> it is very interesting hearing you put it that way. attorney general eric holder, thanks for coming on the beat. love talking to you. and ahead, we turn to a very important story, donald trump's education secretary rebuked over a proposal to literally gut the funding for the suspect olympics. e funding for the suecspt olympics oh! oh! ♪ ozempic®! ♪ (announcer) people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than seven and maintained it. oh! under seven? 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"hardball" is up next. jumping over the bar. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening, i'm chris math aoos in washington. they're talking right now about subpoenaing robert mueller himself. this would allow the democrats to leap frog the head of the justice department and get to what nancy pelosi has called the goods. and along with what former fbi director james comey said mo