Transcripts For MSNBCW The Beat With Ari Melber 20190220 : c

Tonight, the clues and the signs and the evidence turn iing in t Mueller Probe. A man who has been under scrutiny for two years struck a tone that ill let you decide for yourself. He looked almost deliberately blaise about how this Mueller Report could come out soon. Mr. President , should the Mueller Report be released . That will be totally up to the new attorney general. Hes a tremendous man, a tremendous person who really respects this country and respects the Justice Department so that will be totally up to him, new attorney general. Totally up to him, as if this was not a president who gets involved, donald trump famously wanted to fire Jeff Sessions for not defending him enough against this lawful russia probe. Now he claims hes hands off, but its his handpicked attorney general who, of course, will decide all of this. If you look at the president there we dont do a lot of body language on this show. He, at least, seems to be playing the role of someone who doesnt want to look tense. He seems like a man who is trying to show some lack of worry as to where this is headed. This was not in a bubble. It was six days ago we got the vision of bill barr facing the chief justice and the man who he is investigating and the man that mueller has been investigating. Last night, trump officially nominated barrs deputy to replace the man who had been overseeing this, the most famous Deputy Attorney general in american history, rod rosenstein. Meanwhile, nbc noted that rosenstein would only step down, would only leave after mueller finished his work. Now today thats not all, as i mentioned in clues. Were interested in the evidence not the rumors. The clues he may be wrapping things up comes from here, a report on cnn that three days last week, there were workers pushing a cart of files out of their office and the grand jury which indicted stone, manafort and others havent actually met in weeks. The last thing they did were the charges against stone. In some of the big cases moving forward, weve seen other offices that could take a handoff and then you have all this other action i want to tell you about today before we bring in our experts, a new york judge granting Michael Cohen more time before reporting to prison and his attorney say iing he is sti preparing to testify. This is a prosecution that originally began with the Mueller Probe and ended up in new york. Roger stone goes face to face tomorrow with a judge he at least mokd online, maybe worse. Quet is whether he violated a gag order. The handoff, lawyers at the d. C. s u. S. Attorneys office are involved. They could continue if mueller wraps up. He has been on this nonstop media blitz for weeks and claimed memorably that he felt this was overboard, this was somehow a problem, the lawful arrest that you see on your screen at his home in florida when they executed the lawful arrest warrant. Compare that video of stones arrest with his own online attacks on a federal judge who will decide tomorrow his fate. You can assess for yourself what was really inappropriate, what was really a potential threat. Tomorrow is a big, big day in the Mueller Probe, no matter what. What we dont know tonight is if it could be one of the last big days, one of the last big hearings as mueller is still formally on the job. Lets get it with people who know their way around these very intricate issues. Former federal prosecutor, who also represented Donald Trumps Deputy Campaign chair, rick gates, in the Mueller Probe and brings that important relevant experience. And for the wider view of the politics of all of this, because the ending of any Mueller Probe will have a lot of action, a governor, a doctor, howard dean. How are you doing, governor . Im doing great. Nice to see you. Well get to you. Flannery, i begin with you based on the clues, stipulating what we dont know, what do you see is significant about where this is headed now . I had a different reaction. When you talked about all the documents being packed up and leaving the office, all i could think of was watergate, in which the team took documents off the out of the office because they feared what would happen to the office if it would be shut down and all that they had gotten would be lost. So, i dont know. Theres been so many advances in terms of search warrants and data that they found, it still doesnt feel like they would do it except out of compulsion, to issue a report now. I think its an evolving thing. The way any investigation work, you get a more precise picture as time goes on. Im sure mueller has worked that way. Whether he will have a report m immine imminently. Are you hoping or theorizing . Im theorizing. Im analyzing the facts as you have them available and presented them. With a grin too boot. Yes. Im a happy guy. You know, hes a happy lawyer. Ann marie, i think john is making what for many critics of donald trump would say is a best case scenario. What we do here is report the way things look. There is evidence, as ive just gone through, that theres at least a possibility of mueller wrapping up without more indictments. That doesnt mean there might not be a report with all kinds of bad stuff about donald trump that the house might want to consider, a lot of activities, basically taken by any other human they would be called obstruction of justice. What does our constitutional system do when the president is that human . Do you see it a little differently . You were the person on the panel who has interacted with these mueller folks. It may be a very good chance that it may be winding down. Although its very difficult to say. Were always reading the tea leaves, figuring out whats happening. They have a new attorney general who is now in charge of this investigation. Mueller reports to him. He may say enough, shut it down, were done. And that may well be why theyre taking boxes out but it may also continue for some time. Its very hard to tell. As a prosecutor, you deal with all kinds of people trying to break the law and get with an with it. Crime and coverup. Listen to another celebrated attorney who rose all the way to acting director of fbi. Not backward looking about what andy mccabe said he saw in his book but the criminal overlap in the way that trump does business. Take alook. This is classic kind of criminal enterprise behavior, right . You have a strong leader who rules by force of will and personality, who demands unquestioned loyalty from those people around him. He has got to be sure that people are on his side. If youre not on his side youre against him. And if you dont have that, its a threat to his very existence. Those are some of the same traits i saw interacting with the president and the folks in his administration. Whats notable about that, that is not mere criticism. That is not just punditry. That is a window into the mindset of someone who was actually at one point making sure there was investigation of this president. What you heard from him, does that sound to you like the way that the prosecutors you dealt with in this probe were approaching this or could it end up with them saying theres a lot of stuff we dont like but were not calling it a criminal enterprise . Its hard to say. I only dealt with the rick gates issue with the special counsels team. We didnt talk about anything other than that. You have to remember, too, when youre looking at mccabe, the Inspector General found that he lied on a number of instances. Sure. And hes trying to portray things in a way thats favorable for him so people feel sorry for him. Do you think hes lying now . Its hard to say. This guy has lied so many times you sort of its not that hard to say. Are you just mentioning something to discredit him or are you saying that what hes saying now is lying . I would appreciate a straight answer. I dont trust him. I tend to be a little cynical. When somebody has lied under oath i dont trust what they say. I take everything that they say without putting a lot of stock into it. I also look at the circumstance that hes in. Hes trying to get himself out of trouble. Still the open probe in d. C. . Absolutely. Important context you bring. Governor dean, your views on any and all of the above in terms of how it will play in a town that has become obsessed with whatever comes out of the fbi . Its too early to say. We love to speculate about this. Its certainly high drama, particularly when mccabe said he had an investigation just to see if the president of the United States was a russian asset. Thats something weve never heard in the history of the republic as far as i can tell, or any other foreign asset. Mueller has run a quiet investigation with virtually no leaks whatsoever. We can speculate all we want. There is actually, unfortunately, very little evidence to come to any conclusion, i think, at this point about whats going to be in the investigation and when its going to appear. Let me ask you, john, on roger stone, another big piece of this. Again, you can do the thought experiment. If an aide to george bush or barack obama was indicted for all this terrible stuff and then basically went and did these really remarkably irresponsible attacks on the judge, and now tomorrow the judge will rule and, to put it in simple terms, he could get a warning. He could get an even more restricted gag order. He could get an ankle bracelet like the rapper rick ross, if you remember his ankle bracelet. He could get a fine or jail. What do you think is going to happen there . If i were the judge im sure the judge has considered this. Part of his story is that some aide did this. That is suggesting, you know, he calls it a celtic cross, next to a picture, and some aide did that without consulting with him . I would want that person on the carpet to tell me if that conversation happened because i dont believe a thing that comes out of his mouth. I dont think anybody else does either. The trickster, liar, manipulator. And he probably never expected it would get caught up, that he would get away with it. When he did, he took it down but put up the picture again, then took down the picture, then apologized when he was caught. These conversions on the edge of being punished are important. If i were the judge, i would be scrutinizing everything he says and i would consider changing the conditions of his release, no matter what he said. On top of that, if i suspected he was lying, as is his course, i think i might suggest he spend a couple of days at the federal expense instead of wherever hes living right now. Right. Any time in jail may disenfranchise him that this is a set, a stage. Ann marie, your client, that didnt stop him from going out. Manafort guilty, gates guilty, who you represented, flynn guilty, stone indicted and all the internationals indicted. If this is where it ends, is this still a really big deal or does this look to you that you would argue, while serious, is a lot of coverup and process crimes and not the underlying collusion . It doesnt have a lot to do with russia. And it doesnt seem to none of it seems to go back to trump. They dont seem to make that connection between trump himself. Its serious crimes he has committed. The photo with the crosshairs could be looked at as a threat to the judge, or to incite some sort of violence against her. If she looks at it that way, thats very serious, too. All of that will affect eventually if he is found guilty or pleads guilty, the sentencing. So, he could be looking at some serious time. And the fact that he did this now makes it worse. Governor dean, big picture. And if there is, quote, unquote, no conspiracy, no collusion, what do you take from this . Is the democrats argument yeah, okay, there wasnt an international watergate election conspiracy just a ton of felonies by all the top people trump picked . I dont think the sternch of the trump family indictments go away. There may be impeachment hearings but trumps label is now corruption. And his base is going to love him anyway and everybody else is going to hate him. And i dont see a big change in the status quo. I do think a number of people are going to jail. I wouldnt rule out donald junior. Very interesting. Ann marie, andy mccabe will be on the beat tomorrow night. To you want me to tell him you said hi . I wish him well. I hope it works out well for him. It was more of a joke question. You answered it seriously. Youre a serious prosecutor. He has a lot to deal with. No question of that. You cant argue a case unless you hear every side. Benefit tonight from the wisdom of ann marie mcavoy. Howard dean, and john flannery, keep the bow tie on. Ill be tv ready. Another mueller witness jones me to discuss trump deferring to the new attorney general. What does it mean . Is it timely tonight, whether a president like donald trump can be indicted in office, doj official who wrote the special counsel rules will be part of our received wisdom. Later, this is so important on the show tonight. Fact check on immigration live from mexico, proving why donald trump is completely, 100 wrong on the factual basis for the emergency powers. Later, yes, i teased it earlier. Well have the former acting fbi director andy mccabe involved in the beat. Im ari melber. A lot more. Stay with us. Melber a lot more stay with us they customized my Car Insurance, so i only pay for what i need. And as a man. Uh. Or a woman. With very specific needs that i cant tell you about say cheese. Mr. Landry . Oh no. Hi mr. Landry Liberty Mutual customizes your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Dad hiding when i was supposed to be quitting. I thought, i should try something that works. I should try nicorette. Nicorette mini relieves sudden cravings fast. Anytime. Anywhere. Nicorette mini. You know why. We know how. You wont find relief here. Congestion and pressure . Go to the pharmacy counter for powerful claritind. While the leading allergy spray only relieves 6 symptoms, claritind relieves 8, including sinus congestion and pressure. Claritind relieves more. clapping every day, visionaries are creating the future. so, every day, we put our latest technology and vast expertise to work. the United States Postal Service makes more ecommerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, affordably and ontime. ringing the future only happens with people who really know how to deliver it. Major news has everyone talking about the Mueller Report tonight. Its now up to bill barr on what happens next. That will be totally up to the new attorney general. He is a tremendous man, a tremendous person who really respects this country and respects the Justice Department. So that will be totally up to him. The new attorney general. Totally up to him, as weve been covering tonight, thats the kind of statement you can interpret all sorts of ways. If any of this is familiar if you watch the beat it may be because we made the point to discuss the very same point that donald trump said on the record today with a trump ally, matt schlapp, last night. He took what many made an ominous prediction, that bill barr would, quote, have an ominous effect on the Mueller Probe and thus it would end soon. One of his many jobs is to have the special counsel read him in on where he is in the underlying charge. Sure. Its a simple statement. If theres no collusion that barr effect sounds like hes going to do something because of bar. Nope. Nope or yep . Lets get into it. Senior fellow at demos, knows her way around washington as well and former federal prosecutor, who dealt with andrew whoo weissman, a trump digital linked firm subpoenaed by mueller. Great to have both of you here. You see what donald trump said. Do you believe him . I do believe him. I believe him not because donald trump said it but because i think bill barr is a man of integrity. If the Mueller Report has direct or circumstantial evidence that trump cloouded with russia, barr is releasing the report. If theres not, the president and barr would want to release the report anyway but i think barr will release it on the merits. If its bad for trump, mueller will definitely get it out and if its good for trump theres no conflict because the white house would want it out. Do you see that in the coming weeks . I dont know about the coming weeks. Ive seen the speculation that its coming to an end. Theres a lot we dont know. Donald trump jr. Has to be interviewed, right . Hes central to the meeting at trump tower. Its hard for me to believe they would conclude the investigation without you raise a very good point as these prosecutors have, donald trump jr. , eric trump, ivanka, Vice President pence, at least somewhat involved in the sanctions issue, john bolton, kellyanne conway, who lies constantly but perhaps not under oath. Fair point. Fair. Were all adults here. So when you look at that list, and then this parlor game backed by evidence. The reason we led this story that mueller is moving is that the signs look real. You dealt with them with this parlor game and those people, do you think they were interviewed and we never heard about it . Someone on their side of the fence, its hard for me to believe, wouldnt have released those details. We will find out when we find out i suppose but some of the signals may suggest part of it are ramping down. My own prediction is that were in for several more weeks if not a couple more months of the investigation. Thats interesting, coming from you, having represented someone directly in this probe. I dont think we can read the tea leaves of when this will come down but we have a sense of where the grassroots, where the ordinary citizens who have been watching this for the past two years, slow trickle of damning information about the president s administration, his campaign and about obstruction of justice. People are watching and they want to see the report, right . I think we have School Teachers and people who normally are not reading legal reports wanting to know the truth from Robert Mueller. Which is a good thing for civil society. Its a great thing for civil society. What if Robert Mueller tells them something a lot of people dont want to hear . I think thats important, too. I think thats doubtful given that five out of six Mueller Probe<\/a>. A man who has been under scrutiny for two years struck a tone that ill let you decide for yourself. He looked almost deliberately blaise about how this Mueller Report<\/a> could come out soon. Mr. President , should the Mueller Report<\/a> be released . That will be totally up to the new attorney general. Hes a tremendous man, a tremendous person who really respects this country and respects the Justice Department<\/a> so that will be totally up to him, new attorney general. Totally up to him, as if this was not a president who gets involved, donald trump famously wanted to fire Jeff Sessions<\/a> for not defending him enough against this lawful russia probe. Now he claims hes hands off, but its his handpicked attorney general who, of course, will decide all of this. If you look at the president there we dont do a lot of body language on this show. He, at least, seems to be playing the role of someone who doesnt want to look tense. He seems like a man who is trying to show some lack of worry as to where this is headed. This was not in a bubble. It was six days ago we got the vision of bill barr facing the chief justice and the man who he is investigating and the man that mueller has been investigating. Last night, trump officially nominated barrs deputy to replace the man who had been overseeing this, the most famous Deputy Attorney<\/a> general in american history, rod rosenstein. Meanwhile, nbc noted that rosenstein would only step down, would only leave after mueller finished his work. Now today thats not all, as i mentioned in clues. Were interested in the evidence not the rumors. The clues he may be wrapping things up comes from here, a report on cnn that three days last week, there were workers pushing a cart of files out of their office and the grand jury which indicted stone, manafort and others havent actually met in weeks. The last thing they did were the charges against stone. In some of the big cases moving forward, weve seen other offices that could take a handoff and then you have all this other action i want to tell you about today before we bring in our experts, a new york judge granting Michael Cohen<\/a> more time before reporting to prison and his attorney say iing he is sti preparing to testify. This is a prosecution that originally began with the Mueller Probe<\/a> and ended up in new york. Roger stone goes face to face tomorrow with a judge he at least mokd online, maybe worse. Quet is whether he violated a gag order. The handoff, lawyers at the d. C. s u. S. Attorneys office are involved. They could continue if mueller wraps up. He has been on this nonstop media blitz for weeks and claimed memorably that he felt this was overboard, this was somehow a problem, the lawful arrest that you see on your screen at his home in florida when they executed the lawful arrest warrant. Compare that video of stones arrest with his own online attacks on a federal judge who will decide tomorrow his fate. You can assess for yourself what was really inappropriate, what was really a potential threat. Tomorrow is a big, big day in the Mueller Probe<\/a>, no matter what. What we dont know tonight is if it could be one of the last big days, one of the last big hearings as mueller is still formally on the job. Lets get it with people who know their way around these very intricate issues. Former federal prosecutor, who also represented Donald Trumps<\/a> Deputy Campaign<\/a> chair, rick gates, in the Mueller Probe<\/a> and brings that important relevant experience. And for the wider view of the politics of all of this, because the ending of any Mueller Probe<\/a> will have a lot of action, a governor, a doctor, howard dean. How are you doing, governor . Im doing great. Nice to see you. Well get to you. Flannery, i begin with you based on the clues, stipulating what we dont know, what do you see is significant about where this is headed now . I had a different reaction. When you talked about all the documents being packed up and leaving the office, all i could think of was watergate, in which the team took documents off the out of the office because they feared what would happen to the office if it would be shut down and all that they had gotten would be lost. So, i dont know. Theres been so many advances in terms of search warrants and data that they found, it still doesnt feel like they would do it except out of compulsion, to issue a report now. I think its an evolving thing. The way any investigation work, you get a more precise picture as time goes on. Im sure mueller has worked that way. Whether he will have a report m immine imminently. Are you hoping or theorizing . Im theorizing. Im analyzing the facts as you have them available and presented them. With a grin too boot. Yes. Im a happy guy. You know, hes a happy lawyer. Ann marie, i think john is making what for many critics of donald trump would say is a best case scenario. What we do here is report the way things look. There is evidence, as ive just gone through, that theres at least a possibility of mueller wrapping up without more indictments. That doesnt mean there might not be a report with all kinds of bad stuff about donald trump that the house might want to consider, a lot of activities, basically taken by any other human they would be called obstruction of justice. What does our constitutional system do when the president is that human . Do you see it a little differently . You were the person on the panel who has interacted with these mueller folks. It may be a very good chance that it may be winding down. Although its very difficult to say. Were always reading the tea leaves, figuring out whats happening. They have a new attorney general who is now in charge of this investigation. Mueller reports to him. He may say enough, shut it down, were done. And that may well be why theyre taking boxes out but it may also continue for some time. Its very hard to tell. As a prosecutor, you deal with all kinds of people trying to break the law and get with an with it. Crime and coverup. Listen to another celebrated attorney who rose all the way to acting director of fbi. Not backward looking about what andy mccabe said he saw in his book but the criminal overlap in the way that trump does business. Take alook. This is classic kind of criminal enterprise behavior, right . You have a strong leader who rules by force of will and personality, who demands unquestioned loyalty from those people around him. He has got to be sure that people are on his side. If youre not on his side youre against him. And if you dont have that, its a threat to his very existence. Those are some of the same traits i saw interacting with the president and the folks in his administration. Whats notable about that, that is not mere criticism. That is not just punditry. That is a window into the mindset of someone who was actually at one point making sure there was investigation of this president. What you heard from him, does that sound to you like the way that the prosecutors you dealt with in this probe were approaching this or could it end up with them saying theres a lot of stuff we dont like but were not calling it a criminal enterprise . Its hard to say. I only dealt with the rick gates issue with the special counsels team. We didnt talk about anything other than that. You have to remember, too, when youre looking at mccabe, the Inspector General<\/a> found that he lied on a number of instances. Sure. And hes trying to portray things in a way thats favorable for him so people feel sorry for him. Do you think hes lying now . Its hard to say. This guy has lied so many times you sort of its not that hard to say. Are you just mentioning something to discredit him or are you saying that what hes saying now is lying . I would appreciate a straight answer. I dont trust him. I tend to be a little cynical. When somebody has lied under oath i dont trust what they say. I take everything that they say without putting a lot of stock into it. I also look at the circumstance that hes in. Hes trying to get himself out of trouble. Still the open probe in d. C. . Absolutely. Important context you bring. Governor dean, your views on any and all of the above in terms of how it will play in a town that has become obsessed with whatever comes out of the fbi . Its too early to say. We love to speculate about this. Its certainly high drama, particularly when mccabe said he had an investigation just to see if the president of the United States<\/a> was a russian asset. Thats something weve never heard in the history of the republic as far as i can tell, or any other foreign asset. Mueller has run a quiet investigation with virtually no leaks whatsoever. We can speculate all we want. There is actually, unfortunately, very little evidence to come to any conclusion, i think, at this point about whats going to be in the investigation and when its going to appear. Let me ask you, john, on roger stone, another big piece of this. Again, you can do the thought experiment. If an aide to george bush or barack obama was indicted for all this terrible stuff and then basically went and did these really remarkably irresponsible attacks on the judge, and now tomorrow the judge will rule and, to put it in simple terms, he could get a warning. He could get an even more restricted gag order. He could get an ankle bracelet like the rapper rick ross, if you remember his ankle bracelet. He could get a fine or jail. What do you think is going to happen there . If i were the judge im sure the judge has considered this. Part of his story is that some aide did this. That is suggesting, you know, he calls it a celtic cross, next to a picture, and some aide did that without consulting with him . I would want that person on the carpet to tell me if that conversation happened because i dont believe a thing that comes out of his mouth. I dont think anybody else does either. The trickster, liar, manipulator. And he probably never expected it would get caught up, that he would get away with it. When he did, he took it down but put up the picture again, then took down the picture, then apologized when he was caught. These conversions on the edge of being punished are important. If i were the judge, i would be scrutinizing everything he says and i would consider changing the conditions of his release, no matter what he said. On top of that, if i suspected he was lying, as is his course, i think i might suggest he spend a couple of days at the federal expense instead of wherever hes living right now. Right. Any time in jail may disenfranchise him that this is a set, a stage. Ann marie, your client, that didnt stop him from going out. Manafort guilty, gates guilty, who you represented, flynn guilty, stone indicted and all the internationals indicted. If this is where it ends, is this still a really big deal or does this look to you that you would argue, while serious, is a lot of coverup and process crimes and not the underlying collusion . It doesnt have a lot to do with russia. And it doesnt seem to none of it seems to go back to trump. They dont seem to make that connection between trump himself. Its serious crimes he has committed. The photo with the crosshairs could be looked at as a threat to the judge, or to incite some sort of violence against her. If she looks at it that way, thats very serious, too. All of that will affect eventually if he is found guilty or pleads guilty, the sentencing. So, he could be looking at some serious time. And the fact that he did this now makes it worse. Governor dean, big picture. And if there is, quote, unquote, no conspiracy, no collusion, what do you take from this . Is the democrats argument yeah, okay, there wasnt an international watergate election conspiracy just a ton of felonies by all the top people trump picked . I dont think the sternch of the trump family indictments go away. There may be impeachment hearings but trumps label is now corruption. And his base is going to love him anyway and everybody else is going to hate him. And i dont see a big change in the status quo. I do think a number of people are going to jail. I wouldnt rule out donald junior. Very interesting. Ann marie, andy mccabe will be on the beat tomorrow night. To you want me to tell him you said hi . I wish him well. I hope it works out well for him. It was more of a joke question. You answered it seriously. Youre a serious prosecutor. He has a lot to deal with. No question of that. You cant argue a case unless you hear every side. Benefit tonight from the wisdom of ann marie mcavoy. Howard dean, and john flannery, keep the bow tie on. Ill be tv ready. Another mueller witness jones me to discuss trump deferring to the new attorney general. What does it mean . Is it timely tonight, whether a president like donald trump can be indicted in office, doj official who wrote the special counsel rules will be part of our received wisdom. Later, this is so important on the show tonight. Fact check on immigration live from mexico, proving why donald trump is completely, 100 wrong on the factual basis for the emergency powers. Later, yes, i teased it earlier. Well have the former acting fbi director andy mccabe involved in the beat. Im ari melber. A lot more. Stay with us. Melber a lot more stay with us they customized my Car Insurance<\/a>, so i only pay for what i need. And as a man. Uh. Or a woman. With very specific needs that i cant tell you about say cheese. Mr. Landry . Oh no. Hi mr. Landry Liberty Mutual<\/a> customizes your Car Insurance<\/a> so you only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Dad hiding when i was supposed to be quitting. I thought, i should try something that works. I should try nicorette. Nicorette mini relieves sudden cravings fast. Anytime. Anywhere. Nicorette mini. You know why. We know how. You wont find relief here. Congestion and pressure . Go to the pharmacy counter for powerful claritind. While the leading allergy spray only relieves 6 symptoms, claritind relieves 8, including sinus congestion and pressure. Claritind relieves more. clapping every day, visionaries are creating the future. so, every day, we put our latest technology and vast expertise to work. the United States<\/a> Postal Service<\/a> makes more ecommerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, affordably and ontime. ringing the future only happens with people who really know how to deliver it. Major news has everyone talking about the Mueller Report<\/a> tonight. Its now up to bill barr on what happens next. That will be totally up to the new attorney general. He is a tremendous man, a tremendous person who really respects this country and respects the Justice Department<\/a>. So that will be totally up to him. The new attorney general. Totally up to him, as weve been covering tonight, thats the kind of statement you can interpret all sorts of ways. If any of this is familiar if you watch the beat it may be because we made the point to discuss the very same point that donald trump said on the record today with a trump ally, matt schlapp, last night. He took what many made an ominous prediction, that bill barr would, quote, have an ominous effect on the Mueller Probe<\/a> and thus it would end soon. One of his many jobs is to have the special counsel read him in on where he is in the underlying charge. Sure. Its a simple statement. If theres no collusion that barr effect sounds like hes going to do something because of bar. Nope. Nope or yep . Lets get into it. Senior fellow at demos, knows her way around washington as well and former federal prosecutor, who dealt with andrew whoo weissman, a trump digital linked firm subpoenaed by mueller. Great to have both of you here. You see what donald trump said. Do you believe him . I do believe him. I believe him not because donald trump said it but because i think bill barr is a man of integrity. If the Mueller Report<\/a> has direct or circumstantial evidence that trump cloouded with russia, barr is releasing the report. If theres not, the president and barr would want to release the report anyway but i think barr will release it on the merits. If its bad for trump, mueller will definitely get it out and if its good for trump theres no conflict because the white house would want it out. Do you see that in the coming weeks . I dont know about the coming weeks. Ive seen the speculation that its coming to an end. Theres a lot we dont know. Donald trump jr. Has to be interviewed, right . Hes central to the meeting at trump tower. Its hard for me to believe they would conclude the investigation without you raise a very good point as these prosecutors have, donald trump jr. , eric trump, ivanka, Vice President<\/a> pence, at least somewhat involved in the sanctions issue, john bolton, kellyanne conway, who lies constantly but perhaps not under oath. Fair point. Fair. Were all adults here. So when you look at that list, and then this parlor game backed by evidence. The reason we led this story that mueller is moving is that the signs look real. You dealt with them with this parlor game and those people, do you think they were interviewed and we never heard about it . Someone on their side of the fence, its hard for me to believe, wouldnt have released those details. We will find out when we find out i suppose but some of the signals may suggest part of it are ramping down. My own prediction is that were in for several more weeks if not a couple more months of the investigation. Thats interesting, coming from you, having represented someone directly in this probe. I dont think we can read the tea leaves of when this will come down but we have a sense of where the grassroots, where the ordinary citizens who have been watching this for the past two years, slow trickle of damning information about the president s administration, his campaign and about obstruction of justice. People are watching and they want to see the report, right . I think we have School Teachers<\/a> and people who normally are not reading legal reports wanting to know the truth from Robert Mueller<\/a>. Which is a good thing for civil society. Its a great thing for civil society. What if Robert Mueller<\/a> tells them something a lot of people dont want to hear . I think thats important, too. I think thats doubtful given that five out of six Trump Campaign<\/a> associates who have already pled guilty. Given everything we know about the communications between the trump family and russia, how many times the president lied about his contacts with russia. The Vice President<\/a> also lied about contacts with russia. Whats important is that the American People<\/a> are going to be in the streets if the Mueller Probe<\/a> is ended and theres anything that looks suspicious about the way that ended up barr and also if we dont get to see all the facts. Did donald trump look extra chill to you . Yeah, he did. He really did. This guy is a tremendous man, right . Weve seen this sort of psycho flattery. We know william barr was on the record basically saying two things. One, that this entire investigation was, you know, something that he was suspicious of. And, more importantly, the idea that the president cant be indicted, which is not actually something that is settled law. Certainly the Supreme Court<\/a> has seen the other way. Were diving exactly into that question. What did you learn dealing with the mueller prosecutors . I heard you dealt particularly with one of the fiercer ones, weissman. A number of people from the mueller staff were extremely professional. They were very thorough. And they looked, to me, as people that were simply trying to follow facts. What was their theory of the case . The witness that i dealt with was really unrelated to the central issues with respect to trump and collusion and the like. Well, hes a lawyer. I dont expect you to say the person im defending was the linchpin of the collusion. Go on. But he did impress me as mueller has staffed his team with people who are real professionals. They are dedicated, most of them, career public servants, most of them apolitical. And so i think that were going to find theyre fielding every single ground ball in a very wide field and theyre going to do a very detailed report. And there r going to be some people who are disappointed by it and some people that its going to reinforce their own beliefs and prejudices but i think there will be some surprises in there as well. Jim, as someone who has represented a witness in the probe, its great to have you here, particularly in these coming days. We hope you come back. Thank you. Heather, good to see you again. Thank you. Can a sitting president be indicted . A special report when were back in 30 seconds. N were back in 30 seconds. To make you everybody else. Means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. Does this sound dismal . It isnt. Its the most wonderful life on earth. New clues tonight that whatever bob mueller has found, he could hand off his report soon. Donald trump saying this afternoon his new ag will decide what happens to any Mueller Report<\/a>. Journalists have been tracking clues that muellers grand jury could be winding down as the doj announces a replacement for muellers old boss this week, rod rosenstein, saying he will leave doj entirely next month and that matters because he suggested that muellers report would be filed before he, rod rosenstein, departs. No one knows what mueller will find or release but we do know the rules that govern mueller say he must, quote, explain all of his prosecution or de krchl declination decisions. Many people are asking how could that apply to a president . No prosecutor has ever tried to indict a sitting u. S. President , making that scenario more fiction than news, like a Fictional Secret Service<\/a> arresting the fictional president they were once protecting. Get them the hell out of here. Im sorry, mr. President , we have our orders. You take you take your orders from me. Not anymore. Not anymore. Depending on what era youre in, that may be more or less exciting. Why, legally, is considering that more fantasy than reality . As everyone awaits the Mueller Report<\/a> tonight, its worth getting into the answer. The constitution does not say this explicitly. Many scholars believe it suggests against indicting a sitting president and the doj has reinforced that view by also formally advising against it. It doesnt mean its legally impossible. It does set the bar, basically, about as high as it gets without formally banning the indictment of a sitting president. Here are both reasons. Founding fathers did consider the idea of president ial crimes, of course, and created a way for congress to remove the president from office for high crimes or misdemeanors. There is debate over what is a high crime. Constitutions core remedy th e there, of course, is congress, not the prosecutors in the president s own executive branch to deal with any such alleged high crime and potentially remove a president over it. Does that mean people are immune from prosecution because they serve as president . No. This is important. The theory is about the order of operations. It holds that a president would first have to be removed from office and then charged later. Consider the debate from the time of the founding. George mason, who didnt actually sign the constitution, argueded that the president s pardon power was too broad, that the president ought not to have the power of pardoning, because he may pardon crimes that were advised, yes, by himself. James madison said theres a security of the house, which can impeach him. And here is why im showing you that ancient history tonight as everyone waits for mueller to do something. The exchange does suggest that the founders, when they assumed there could be a crimecommitting president , they also assumed the First Response<\/a> was impeachment to that. It may sound unjust to have president president s who face no charges for crimes. Lets say he trespassed on someones property, busted, on camera, no doubt. A federal prosecutor could try to indict on that defense and convicted trespasser could spend months in jail in d. C. But no legal scholars really think of the constitution supports that outcome. The impeachment for that very reason and congress would never find trespassing in d. C. To be a high crime. The second reason it is hard to consider indicting a sitting president. You probably heard a lot about this one. That the doj recommends against it. Sitting president cannot be charged with a crime. The prevailing rule is that a sitting president cannot be indicted. The president cannot be indicted while a sitting president. That would materially affect his ability to run the executive branch. This view that you hear on the news has become so commonplace it works as a punch line as to why trump acts like hes above the law. Rudy, did you go on fox news last night . Like 20 times, yeah. Dont worry. I told them that you were ope y ly colluding with russia but then ended with so what . Im sure it will be fine. Thanks, rudy. Then i confessed to some crimes you didnt do. Then i said what are you going to do, arrest the president . I dare you. Thats snl rudy, but trumps own real lawyers like real rudy, they dont just say hes innocent. They make this more suspicious sounding argument that even if he were guilty the doj doesnt have the right to indict under the rules and it would unduly interfere with his constitutionally assigned duties and regardless of guilt, it would handicap a presidency, taking an overwhelming degree of preoccupation away from the president. Dojs official guidance says this immunity were discussing would not preclude prosecution once the prefzs term is over or hes otherwise removed. That is something that could scare any president who thinks or knows they committed a crime. Now another trump lawyer made headlines for reportedly telling trump that lying to mueller could land him in an orange jump suit. We dont know whether bob muellers report, when it comes out, will allege that donald trump lied in his original answers but trumps own lawyer with the view that soon er or later, you could go to jail for it. Two reasons a sitting president is unlikely to be indicted. Impeachment and the doj recommending against it. What if you had an emergency, high crime or some reason the doj wanted to go forward . Two former special counsel have argued indicting a president on the job is not always off the table. Arguing in a memo that there was nothing in the constitution barring the indictment of a sitting president. And then you get into modern times. Ken starr was famously the Republican Special<\/a> counsel investigating clinton. When i asked him, he took the same view. You solicited an opinion for your investigation that argued a sitting president could be indicted. Did you agree with that view then . Yes. Do you agree with that view now . Yes. Those are major prosecutorial opinions. Neither of them actually did the thing they say they could have done legally. They say they have that power or think that power should exist but didnt indict a president as you know. Doj guidelines and a debate over what they mean. Theyre not law. The man who wrote the ones for the special counsel said this. Regulations say mueller youre bound by doj policy but can seek exceptions. Thats what i would expect he would do. Thats why all of the backstory in the legal History Matters<\/a> tonight. We dont know what mueller is going to do. But if, according to the man who wrote his rules he uncovered the kind of crime that was so significant that he needed or thought there was a Public Interest<\/a> to indict a sitting president , he would have to ask for an exception. He would have to do that. He would have to do that request by submitting it to the new current attorney general. They ultimately ordered nixon to turn over those very damning watergate tapes. They said the president didnt have a limitless executive privilege to withhold the information. Unanimous decision 80, Justice Rehnquist<\/a> took no part in the decision, ordering the president of the United States<\/a> to turn over the tapes. That was one of those moments in watergate that changed history. We dont know yet whether anything in the Mueller Report<\/a> will push toward one of those moments now. The reason we look at the law and constitution and mention tonight there is a very high bar to ever go that far against the president is because it is the law and not our opinions about any given president that matters. I wanted to share that with you. Ill come back with a special guest to break all of this down. Guest to break all of this down. Im mildly obsessed with numbers. So, i started with the stats regarding my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. Like how humira has been prescribed to over 300,000 patients. And how many patients saw clear or almost clear skin in just 4 months the kind of clearance that can last. Humira targets and blocks a specific source of inflammation that contributes to symptoms. Numbers are great. And seeing clearer skin is pretty awesome, too. Thats what i call a body of proof. Humira can lower your ability to fight infections. Serious and sometimes fatal infections, including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. Tell your doctor if youve been to areas where certain fungal infections are common and if youve had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flulike symptoms or sores. Dont start humira if you have an infection. Want more proof . Ask your dermatologist about humira. This is my body of proof. Oh no. Your new boss seems cool, but she might not be sweatpants cool. Not quite ready to face the day . Thats why were here with free hot breakfast. Book at hampton. Com for our price match guarantee. Hampton by hilton. And relief from symptoms caused feel the clarity of nondrowsy claritin book at hampton. Com for our price match guarantee. By over 200 indoor and outdoor allergens. Like those from buddy. Because stuffed animals are clearly no substitute for real ones. Feel the clarity. And live claritin clear. Breaking news. Ive been handed a New Washington<\/a> post report story breaking on the mueller end game, Justice Department<\/a> preparing for Mueller Report<\/a>. The post puts the timeline at, quo quote, the coming days, a significant advancement of the story weve been covering all evening. I want to turn to two experts who follow the probe a lot for us, Jason Johnson<\/a> from the root. Com, and former federal prosecutor john flannery. We just got this from the Washington Post<\/a>. It echoes the reporting at the top of the hour it does advance it, john, puts it in days. Who knows . One, post reported moments ago trumps inner circle has, quote, palpable concern that there could be damaging material in the mueller rrt thats not technically illegal but is, quote, damaging to him and, two, reports that people who are on muellers team, top prosecutors, have reportedly begun talking to old bosses about future jobs when they leave this office, an office known to avoid leaks. Thats a conversation that sooner or later people would have. Your reaction, john . My reaction is when the white house is saying these are technical crimes that we shouldnt give it much weight. The fact that theyre concerned is probably encouraging to those of us who think we know publicly is so outrageous, misconduct and abuses of power that we would hope that the report says Something Like<\/a> that and perhaps does consider recommendation of indictment because how political impeachment would be. And i am concerned that barr, who was hand picked by the president , may muzzle whatever is prepared in the days ahead. I think these are pretty serious concerns. And how the white house performs under this pressure will tell us what kind of crisis in government we have. Jason, as a student of washington, this is starting to feel like something is coming. Yeah. Yes. Look, this is winter is coming. The law is coming. Mueller is coming. However you put it. This is the end game everybody has been waiting for. Look, i understand that maller is apolitical. He just has a job to do. The results of the 2018 election, i thought, would determine how quickly we got this report. Between democrats being in a position where tlekd do more investigations in the house and the fact that you now have bob barr, who has made it abundantly clear that he would do whatever he could to protect the president and he questioned muellers investigation, they need to strike while the iron is hot if they want any chance of investigations that are in the report. John, if this reporting from the Washington Post<\/a> is correct and it oak hes the other evidence i already presented, how do you interpret the inference that this would be concluding without an inperson interview of the president who is so central to many of the alleged and confessed crimes . The hypothetical is were the aens he gave contradicted by the evidence collected by the special counsel . In other words, did he say one thing about the june 9th meeting that they can contradict or about the coverup of the june 9th meeting on behalf of don junior . The fact that some people werent called, that follows a pattern. Example, roger stone, that a person who was targeted in the end and indicted wasnt necessarily spoken to by special counsel. We can guess about it but ive always thought this was a threepart story. The first two parts were how they set up the system that the incumbent and the oval office use to get elected, improperly, illegally, corruptly. And what he has done since he has been in office has been to obstruct the investigation at every turn. I dont see how those two subjects dont get discussed and past president s who found themselves in trouble, there are cartoons and satires about it. They always found that the coverup was worse than the underlying crime as far as the direct evidence they had to prove. Jason, what is the environment in the house when we talk about the Mueller Report<\/a>, its only confidential. Right. Whats been intimated and what the post is signaling without directly reporting is that there seems to be a joint plan to get something that would be going to congress and unclassified version that goes to the public. How will the house take this . It will be huge. Every single democrat and every single state that trump has ever done a business in to investigate this to say what they can give local and state prosecutors. This larger idea of whether or not the president can be indicted thats really the next step after this report gets released. Thats why he wanted gorsuch and kavanaugh. People clearly in the Trump Administration<\/a> believe theyve been lying saying the president can never get arrested for anything domestic but they wouldnt have been so obsessed with putting somebody like Brett Kavanaugh<\/a> on the bench. I think it will be worthy of indictment. And then this could be a huge legal battle that could run all the way to 2020. What the democrats have said about obstruction, many prominent democrats including chairs of key committees who are of the view that the president witness tampered in public. A minimum public Inflection Point<\/a> for what we reported earlier tonight has been dealt with regarding the president s conduct in the house first not in a grand jury. Right. John, jason, thanks to both of you on the breaking story. Thanks, ari. A lot more. My original fact check report on why Donald Trumps<\/a> emergency is based on falsehoods that you should know the details about. Su should know the details about. Your grace. Your majesty. Your king. A legacy of leaders, speeders and serpent feeders. The alfa romeo giulia, stelvio and c37. Stimulant laxatives forcefully stimulate i switched to stimulantfree miralax for my constipation. The nerves in your colon. Miralax is different. It works with the water in your body to unblock your system naturally. And it doesnt cause harsh side effects. 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Dont get mad, get e trade. There are all kinds of a arguments against the national emergency. But before you get to the legal ones or the rhetorical ones. What about the stated rationale of separated powers. That rising immigration has reached crisis. Its not true at all and you hear it a lot. Theres a growing humanitarian crisis at our southern border. We see what happens when we have a large influx of people on the southern border. Unaccompanied children are coming over in ways weve never seen. We returned to the highest levels of immigration across our southern border. That is false and not in a minor or nuanced way. It is what we fact checker call super false. Its near an alltime low and its worth mastering these fact as america begins a very long trumpy edebate over his wall money. Look at past administrations up to the Trump Administration<\/a>. Over a million were caught in 1980. A figure spiking in 1986. 90s you can see a fluk chactu and a trentd upwards. Its almost two decades ago because as you go towards 2000, you have this decline, dropping lower than the 80s levels and here is the current era. From 2010 until today some of the lowest numbers on record, including 2017, which was the lowest mexican migration since 1980 with a small uptick last year far below eall the other tall bars on the left. Whether you like the idea of a president seizing money that congress didnt authorize for a wall or schoschool lunches or w you think of that part of the debate, these are the falkts. And from the border to t streete beltway, we have to keep it real, even if other people are fronting. My name is just the facts while the rest of yall just adjust the facts. Put words together just to match. I say whats real. Yall adjust to that. So just the facts tonight. Heres another one you need know. America now sends mexico more people than they send to us. You can see about 800,000 mexican citizens came here and a million mex cancons in the u. S. Were going back to mexico as you can see the red arrow is the one that came over. But the green arrow is the larger number, a higher number of people returning to mexico. Its simply as a matter of facts and history in decline now and thats in contrast with Donald Trumps<\/a> false claims based on another false claim that mexico would pay for the wall. Trump himself used it as a punch line when he hosted snl as a new candidate. He milked it as a joke. Mr. President , the president of mexico is here to see you. Thats great. Send him in. Enrique. I brought you a check for the wall. Oh, thats so wonderful. Very funny. The real joke though is serious. The joke that trump played with anyone who believed that, his supporters and then he played a joke on himself by setting such High Expectations<\/a> he could never fulfill them, even with his Republican Congress<\/a> and boxing himself into corner, paying for a wall he cant pay for and brings us full circle back to a jayz dicaught am. 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Its the most wonderful life on earth. The big news is that bob mueller might be wrapping up his probe. Which is fitting to go back to andrew mccabe. He will be my guest tomorrow. We were talk the law, russia Mueller Probe<\/a>. I promise you it will be a real interview. Nothing off limits on the beat. Tomorrow. Hardball starts right now. Striking a nerve. Lets play hardball. The steady drum beat about the russia probe is striking a nerve with the president today. Lashing out at former fbi director in the New York Times<\/a> after their report raised serious questions about whether trump obstructed justice. The president tweeted quote the New York Times<\/a> reporting is false. 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