Does rule to gag stone, he still has free speech rights to discuss, like, immigration or Foreign Relations or tom brady, but not discuss this case. The judge also made comments that seemed to lean against stone note, quote, this is a criminal proceeding and not a Public Relations campaign. But stone is arguing he must mount exactly that kind of pr campaign to defend himself and to prevent people he says from thinking any silence would mean that hes guilty. I believe that in the current atmosphere when one is accused of wrongdoing and one has no response, he either is not available or doesnt comment. There is a presumption of guilt that perhaps is unfair but very real. Were also learning today that bob muellers team is game for an october trial. The judge says summer might make more sense. Stone left the courtroom and again flashed his nixon victory sign. In this new interview with the New York Times, meanwhile, donald trump is insisting he never talked to roger stone about wikileaks. Did you ever talk to him about wikileaks . Buzz thats seemed to be no. You never had a conversation . , no i didnt. Did you ever tell him or other people to get in touch with him . Never did. Never did. Thats an interesting defense on the record. Then this interview gets really interesting. It touches on a huge question in the russia probe. Could donald trump be a target . You may recall that was a Sticking Point in President Trumps famous letter about firing james comey where trump oddly wrote to comey that he alleged comey told him i greatly appreciate you informing me on three separate occasions that i am not under investigation. Now trump claims comeys boss Rod Rosenstein has also made a similar claim to trumps attorney. Has Rod Rosenstein given you any sense over the course of the last year about whether you have any exposure either in or theres any concerns or whether youre a target of mueller . Well, me told the attorneys that im not a subject im not a target, oh yeah. Look, whether that claim is true or not, its fascinating. If its true, it means muellers boss had some reason at some point to tell team trump the russia probe is not headed towards trump. If its false, it means trump is publicly misquoting muellers boss, the person overseeing the probe which could get the attention of that boss, Rod Rosenstein, as well as mueller himself. Now, of course scynic what i this all . Note in the new interview, the same New York Times interview donald trump doesnt make that same claim or assurance about not being a target in another investigation, the one by federal prosecutors in new york, which some of trumps closest allies said very much this week they said it is a bigger threat to him than mueller. Theres two. Theres mueller and then cohen. I dont know about that. That i dont know. Rod never said anything to you about whether you are a target at all in terms of what they were looking for . Has that ever come up . No. We didnt discuss it. Joined by former federal prosecutor paul butler, morgan which directed the documentary get me stone and shelby holiday who has been reporting on the russia probe for the wall street journal. Paul, what do you think of donald trump who cinics as i mentioned said who cares what he says. Do you believe any of it . I dont believe the president in part because he wasnt coherent even yesterday. At first he said that Rod Rosenstein had directly told him that he was a target and then he said well, maybe he told my lawyers and the reporter asked, well, when . He couldnt remember. So theres a specific definition in the department of justice handbook which i looked at every day when i was a prosecutor. A target is someone who is about to be indicted. The specific phrase is when the prosecutor has substantial evidence linking him to the K G Commission of a crime. Almost certainly in the Southern District donald trump or individual a as the prosecutor there likes to call him is a target of that investigation. In fact, the only reason he wasnt charged with Campaign Finance violations along with Michael Cohen is because hes the president of the United States. And why do you think donald trump is always bringing up whether hes a target . Theres other ways to handle this which is i didnt do anything wrong, well let the investigation play out, theyll find the facts. Instead hes always, like, yo, i sort of interceded and i had an inappropriate conversation and i was assured im not a target. Maybe because he did do something wrong and he doesnt want the investigation to proceed so this is a way of really embracing his formal status as president as a defense since he knows better than anybody else that the policy of the department of justice is that a sitting president cant be indicted. After office is another thing. Morgan, when you set up to make the documentary of roger stone, you obviously knew he would be a central figure as the potential agent or linchpin to collusion and would be indicted and this would be keeping you busy, right . Well, no, not at all. You saw all that coming . Two thein 2011 i had my crys ball. You set out to profile us and i know as a reporter side and paul knows on the legal political side because hes always around. You have a portrait of a man there. While hes criticized for many things, in some ways the documentary is sympathetic or shows what some of what we would call strengths. One of them is certainly persistence. Lets take a look at that, his resilience, how he identifies with nixon and think about that in the courtroom today. Take a look. His greatest single quality is resilience and thats the purpose of my tattoo. Its not an ideological statement. Its a reminder that in life when you get knocked down you have to get back up off the canvas and keep pushing. Get back in the game. Thats the story of nixon. A man is not finished when he is defeated. Hes only finished when he quits. How does that apply to the stone we saw in court today fighting any potential gag order . Stone is as tenacious as they come. He is not going to give up. He is going to fight this tooth and nail to the bitter end. If he were to go to prison, he will come out of prison a fire brand and relitigate it all over again. Do you admire that . I think it is one of the characteristics of roger that has kept him so important in our politics for so long. Because he does not go away. He does not go away. He can the cockroach of american politics. But if hes looking at ten years if hes convicted, he will be 77. Well see how much of a fire brand he is then. Thats why i think hes probably going to make a deal. You think he could crack . He doesnt have a defense, ari. The defense to false statements is i told the truth. Robert mueller has a whole cadre of Text Messages and emails that suggests that he did not tell the truth. Shelby n th, in that line, l look at what Paul Manafort said which is that stone and trump are so interconnected you cant even tell them apart. I tell them for your analysis on a night when roger stones involvement is being limited as donald trump rushes to the New York Times, i guess theyre not fake news tonight, and trying to convince the New York Times he doesnt know much about what trumps up to. Take a look at manafort. Rogers relationship with trump has been so interconnected that its hard to define whats roger and whats donald. It would be clearly a trump presidency. I think its influenced by stone philosophy. I have to say when i watched your documentary the first time, i actually wrote that quote down because it just blew my mind knowing what we know and seeing where we are now, donald trump and Paul Manafort are the two people speaking on behalf of roger stone. That quote is very interesting and its true. Roger stone has known President Trump for more than 40 years. Hes been at his side for some of his most pivotal divisions and moments in life, especially when it comes to politics. I think that stone will continue to fight and i think he he plays this Public Private persona very well. We were reading accounts in court where he was very quiet. He sat there with a pretty straight face, but we saw a press conference yesterday where he said my only crime is supporting President Donald Trump which is not true. Thats not what hes charged with. He has all these talking points. He doesnt want to talk about the charges. He wants to talk about the raid on his home, the use of force, all these things inappropriate is and being done to him. Hes very good at making him look like a victim. Thats why hes able to raise money for his legal fees and get writers to write on behalf of him. He works with all of these little writers who will write stories that he wants to write. We even reported that Robert Mueller was investigating a story he planted about his back channel. He has a media operation and he knows how to spin things better than anyone else, so i think it will be fascinating if theres no gag order, continue to see classic stone. Even if there is a gag order, i think he will have a way of getting his narrative out there even if hes not the one doing it. In fairness to stone and any defendant, dont you think theres a good argument against a gag order, paul . What the judge said is that hes welcome to say whatever he wants in private and other people are welcome to say whatever they want in public. Its just that roger stone and his lawyers need to be circumspect. This isnt a normal case. It is obviously all being covered every night. All of us in the media are covering it. The Political Forces are debating it back and forth. Why should stone who has his neck in the potential meat cleaver be the one whos not allowed to mount a Public Defense . The concern is about infecting the jury pool which means he may not get a fair trial. Right now roger stone is acting as his own hype man and hes going to the court of Public Opinion because i dont think he has a defense in the court of law. I feel you on that and you never want to be your own hype man. Exactly. Except busta rhymes. He would record his own echos. Im going to press you on behalf of roger stones argument which is the mueller folks put out on friday what they were doing. Certain cameras showed up there and the raid. And its all out there. So if youre worried about, yes, taintsi tainting the jury pool, which i take your concern, his lawyers can argue to this judge theyre being tainted in the other direction already. What we have is two values that are in some tension. One is his the necessity of him having a fair trial and the judges duty to ensure that that trial is fair. The other is his First Amendment right to express hemimself. The judge balanced that. She will i think almost certainly slap a gag order on him. You predict a gag order . Absolutely. Thats what happened to manafort. Do you have a view . I think this is really shrewd of roger because if he has a gag order imposed, it will play into his narrative of him being persecuted by the government. Do you have a view of whether its a fair thing to do . I dont think there should be a gag order. I am not a legal expert. Its never stopped anyone on television before. I try not to speak about things i dont know. All i can say is roger has already made his point to the pull. He made the argument about being persecuted by the deep state and pointed to the president saying we did have many conversations. I may speak about that at one point. And so i feel like hes made his case. A gag order will only help him. I dont have a take on the gag order, but i do think that like i said hell continue to get his narrative out there no matter what, even if it doesnt go through him. I think his comments about the president , you played a clip on your show earlier this week, he seems to know that trump told mueller the two never discussed wikileaks. President trump told the New York Times he never discussed wikileaks with roger stone. If that was not true, that would be such a strange thing for them to lie about unless theres more that. The president has said with Michael Cohen i didnt make the payment, we didnt talk about it, then it comes out they actually did discuss it and President Trump ordered him to go make this payment to a porn star. If thats the case in the roger stone saga, we have no idea, no evidence proving that it is, that would suggest it would play out in a similar way that the Michael Cohen plea deal played out. What shelby told us earlier, you do have a perspective. You said essentially that donald trump the president of the United States is auditioning for the role of roger stones hype man. Again, the president yesterday complained about the circumstances of roger stones arrest. So the judge im sure would love to gag the president of the United States. She cant do that, so he can continue to serve that hype. Is that a legal fantasy fiction . Thats one thing i can legally say is unlikely to happen. Dont forget the tweet from President Trump that called roger stone or praised him for having guts because he said he would never testify against the president. So President Trump has already weighed in on this. Thats where theres some overlap. You have the gag order, theyll be watching it closely. What you have both said is you have people in power in the white house and now roger stone not saying well tell the truth because its good for us but rather were going to criticize Law Enforcement and avoid testifying as if that is a good thing. If you dont have anything to hide, that never makes any sense. Shelby holiday, morgan and put bu paul butler. What it means for a race that keeps getting a lot more candidates. And a yearbook controversy surrounding the democratic governor of virginia, a person in black face, another in a kkk robe. Youre looking at that new photo. Were going to explain. Democrats making the first move towards demanding trumps tax returns. Were all over that story, plus later an insiders view of how this fight over maralago formed the donald trump weve come to know. At the end of the show, a special fall back friday. Water gate prosecutor and royce together again or together for the first time. You decide. Youre watching the beat on msnbc. N msnbc. Those obstacles that limit a companys growth. I try to find companies that turn these challenges into opportunities. But by going out in the field, and meeting management, suppliers, competitors. In the end, its these unique companies with Creative Business models that will generate value for our investors. Thats why i go beyond the numbers. That will generate value for our investors. Heartburn and gas . Fight both fast tums chewy bites with gas relief all in one relief of heartburn and gas tum tum tum tums tums chewy bites with gas relief i thats the retirement plan. E, with my annuity, i know there is a guarantee. Its for my family, its for my self, its for my future. Annuities can provide protected income for life. Learn more at retire your risk dot org. Before she puts them in the dishwasher. The dishwasher do . vo cascade platinum does the work for you. Prewashing and removing stuckon foods, the first time. mom wow thats clean vo cascade platinum. I can do more to lower my a1c. Because my body can still make its own insulin. And i take trulicity once a week to activate my body to release it, like its supposed to. Trulicity is not insulin. It starts acting in my body from the first dose and continues to work when i need it, 24 7. Trulicity is an injection to improve blood sugar in adults with type 2 diabetes when used with diet and exercise. Dont use it as the first medicine to treat diabetes, or if you have type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. Dont take trulicity if you or your family have medullary thyroid cancer, youre allergic to trulicity, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Stop trulicity and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of a serious allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, or severe stomach pain. Serious side effects may include pancreatitis. Taking trulicity with a sulfonylurea or insulin increases your low blood sugar risk. Common side effects include nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and decreased appetite. These can lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. I choose onceweekly trulicity to activate my within. If you need help lowering your a1c, ask your doctor about onceweekly trulicity. Tenacious cyn. As the shutdown fades, congress is kicking into high gear, democrats agitating for Donald Trumps tax returns. Tonight we can report the first hearing on his taxes is now set for next week. The chairman actually has the legal power to extract anyones tax returns from the treasury department. This battle could go all the way to the supreme court. Another chairman threatening to subpoena the Homeland Security secretary if she wont testify by the end of the month and. Another elijah cup accide as s jared kushner. Im joined by a congressman who sits on the Oversight Committee as well as the budget committee. Thanks for being here. What do you see is important about these investigations . What would americans stand to learn . Ari, thanks for having me on. Its about transparency. The president s tax returns are needed to see if there are conflicts of interest. This goes back to the 1920s. This is not a technical law. We passed this law to give congress authority after they were engaged in bribery and congress couldnt get the tax returns of the people who were committing fraud. Thats why we passed these