Cooperate with bob mueller. The new reporting here is that manafort was trying to basically be an apparent double agent and that explains the news you may have heard earlier this week when bob mueller suddenly canceled the plea agreement with manafort. And it gives context to this other story tonight. Donald trump telling the New York Post that pardoning Paul Manafort is not off the table. Those words are farther than donald trump has gone off that topic so far and it would further tie donald trump back to a convicted felon at the center of the collusion probe who stands accused of obstructing that probe and meeting with Julian Assange if he actually gave him the pardon. Then theres this, Donald Trumps lawyer Rudy Giuliani making waves by bragging about this newly exposed ongoing secret alliance with manafort, saying it delivered valuable insight as to where it was headed. So that is a lot. Let me tell you what it means in terms of where we are. Before Paul Manafort came forward and confessed he was guilty, a criminal, he had a joint Defense Agreement, you probably heard about these, where he would share information with trump. And one of those agreements is fine as long as youre still a normal defendant. Now that was supposed to end when manafort flipped. His continued effort to try to double Cross Mueller and stay on team trump may have been a bid by manafort for a president ial pardon even as he worked with the special counsel in the hopes of a lighter sentence. Thats how the New York Times put in the their careful reporting. Note that that was a kind of a supposition, maybe there would be a pardon reward. If manaforts goal was to trick mueller into getting a lighter sentence, he failed. But if his goal was to commit one more crime to increase the odds of a trump pardon, well, tonight i have to report for you this news that is leading our broadcast, that very pardon not off the table. It would appear trump is getting the message. Now, remember, during watergate, Richard Nixon could have tried pardoning all those burglars early on to shut them up just like trump could have tried pardoning manafort, flynn, or gates, say, two years ago. For all the bluster, trump has not done that yet for the same reasons nixon didnt do it even as things got worse because pardoning the guilty people in a conspiracy in the middle of an open probe does make you look like youre part of the conspiracy. And trump continues to insist hes not part of this conspiracy. And theres word leaking tonight that he has submitted those written answers and some of the answers coming out that he says he didnt know about the trump tower meeting or about roger stones wikileaks intelligence in advance. Big claims to make the bob mueller. Lets get into it with a few people who know a lot about this. Natasha bertrand, Shelby Holliday and former federal prosecutor paul butler. On the pardon news, how do you read trumps statement tonight, paul . As a prosecutor, will you look at that as linked to whats going on with manafort . Or Paul Manafort is so reckless and allegedly criminal its hard to draw any conclusion yet . So Paul Manafort is a stonecold thug who in september confessed in open court to at least 10 Crimes Involving lying and cheating. So in a way its not a surprise that even after that guilty plea hes still lying and cheating. The surprising thing, ari, is that in the past, Paul Manaforts crimes have been about helping Paul Manafort. Right. His lies to mueller help donald trump and they put manafort at great risk. Lets pause on that. I want to let you build on that, because its very important what you just said. We are dealing with you call him a thug, i would call him a guilty convicted felon, but those are words of art, they mean the same thing. So here is this felon who previously was busted for witness tampering to try to get out of his own prosecution for foreign lobbying crimes. So that was for him. Your point is the new thing going on is not necessarily to duck his own crimes, because he was going to get leniency for mueller. So whats it for . Yeah. Now he puts himself at great risk for exactly what happened which is hes likely to spend the rest of his life in prison. Right. Natasha . I think what you said is really important. Its hard to distinguish between manaforts general recklessness and whether there was a strategy here. I think it might be a combination of both. Manafort had proven himself to be a reckless figure. He went to trial against all odds. He wrote an oped in violation of a Court Gag Order and, of course, he was engaged in witness tampering which is what put him in jail. So for his whole life, i think its shown from the way hes built his career, hes thought he is above the law. He basically thought he could engage in all of this foreign lobbying without registering with the Justice Department. He thought he could pull the wool over the eyes of mueller and then a jury. So im not surprised necessarily that he would maintain this back channel to trump because it provided him with an ability to angle for a pardon throughout all of this. Now, whether or not trump does that we have to wait and see, as you said. It would potentially be obstruction of justice. But manafort is always looking out for himself and at the same time, his hubris is amazing. Youre calling it a back channel to trump, which is one dramatic way to put it. Were always searching for our spy movies and thrillers and ways to understand this stuff. Also, and a half that, tell me you see it differently, its an obstruction channel to the white house. Its possible and, of course, legal experts that ive spoken to said it depends on what was discussed. If there was a diangle of a pardon by trumps lawyers to manaforts legal team, that could be potential obstruction of justice. I think the pardon is dangling in the New York Post right now. Exactly. So i think theres been an open acknowledgment that trump expects to give manafort a pardon and that manafort has been lying to the special counsel, another issue we have to look out for is whether he took this plea agreement because he was trying to get information about the investigation and then funnel it back to the Trump Campaign. But this could backfire because, of course, trump has submitted his written answers to mueller already and if any of those answers match the lies that manafort was telling to mueller and if manafort and trump thought mueller didnt have information to the contrary, that could really peru damaging to trump. And shelby, this goes to another point which is the president has his lawyers, hes submitted his answers, he doesnt need inside information from a convicted felon about whats going on if hes wholly innocent and the facts are exonerating. I mean, again, not everyone knows how this works, why would you . But you cover this stuff, ive practiced law and covered this stuff. This isnt how it works. And for your analysis, i want to play Eric Swalwell saying, yeah, why do you need help from manafort to get out from under this. That doesnt make sense if youre innocent. Take a look. Its not appropriate. Manafort was a cooperator. It sounds like hes breached his agreement with the government. Its not the way innocent people conduct themselves. The president was not colluding with russia, why is he colluding with manafort to get a window into the powell special counsel investigation. I would add its not just Paul Manafort. Rudy giuliani says theyre speaking to 30 people in the probe to get information from people who are witnesses, who could be witnesses, who could be cooperating against the president or helping him. But we know theres a lot of information being shared with the white house. Its also notable the president is saying other people in this probe, jerome course rsi, and r stone, are being brave to stand up to mueller. We interviewed corsi, hes telling the special counsel stick it. He was offered a plea deal to plead guilty to lying to the fbi and hes saying i didnt lie and you can prosecute me, you can put me jail. You think, though, that donald trump saying theyre brave is more than just an opinion about their personal courage . It could be a signal to hang in there, dont cooperate, dont plead guilty and, yes, be on my team and jerome corsi is telegraphing to the president that hes very loyal to him. He said all along my crime was that i supported zroump they appear to be talking to each other through the media. Donald o they appear to be talking to each other through the media. If you read the tea leaves in the Court Documents nbc broke yesterday, the prosecutors are also they have evidence that roger stone had information about wikileaks dumps and roger stone denies having any advanced knowledge but there are emails that dont look good for him and theyre also probing potential witness intimidation. This is something the journal reported on previously. Roger stone was involved in writing stories about his alleged back channel Randy Credico who he says was his confirmed source for the wikileaks information and rural is taking seriously that roger stone is out there telling people like jerome corsi and other associates to write stories about credico being his back channels. Now that we have these emails nbc revealed, it looks like maybe roger stone had a different back channel. Maybe he had somebody telling him what assange would release. And all this manafort conspiring, according to muellers charges, comes at a time where the president has been exposed, been busted, for trying to abuse the Justice System to order illegal prosecutions of james comey, of Hillary Clinton and then he put out an incredibly irresponsible piece of propaganda, blithely accusing multiple doj officials of treason, retweeting this thing and saying when will this trial for treason begin . And you can see there Rod Rosenstein, mueller who is doing this investigation behind bars. What is your view of that,fall . You know, there comes a point where theres such a pattern with regard to the president of obstruction, of trying to impede the investigation. We look at his firing james comey, we look at him dictating that lie on air force one about the meeting, don jr. s meeting with the russian lawyer. And the kind of conventional wisdom has been none of those acts by themselves are obstruction but theyre evidence of a criminal intent. Of an intent to impede the investigation. And, again, i think what Robert Mueller will do is to look at this pattern and i mean, the evidence seems fairly inescapable now that the president will stop at nothing. Hes not interested in an investigation thats a search for truth, hes interested in clearing his name even if thats not consistent with the evidence. Doesnt that give, natasha, an alternative reading . Giuliani is often described as brazen or reckless or gaffeprone. Which is possible. I have seen evidence of that. But another reading is he represents his client and his client has made it clear, according to pauls analysis, that the goal is not so much to cooperate or show the facts but to effectively obstruct and destroy any full investigation. And if that is the goal, thats why rudy talks this way. Thats why he openly brazenly brags. I cant think of the last time any member of the bar has dr bragged about receiving information from a convicted felon who allegedly lied to a degree that his plea deal blew up. Right. And giuliani for his bluster, he appears to have been telling the truth about this one. Just after manafort signed his plea agreement he came out and said no, the joint Defense Agreement is still in place. No one believed that because it was just so implausible and so rare and unusual. Such a great point. Every legal expert i spoke to said this is not possible. But it turns out he was actually telling the truth, that he never actually pulled out of this agreement. And i think that is so telling about how from the very beginning this seems to have been the plan. Experts are telling me that it is clear now that manafort never had an intention to fully cooperate, fully align his interests with prosecutors because he still had that one foot in the door with trump. Yeah. Its remarkable. And in some ways its legally scary. Natasha bertrand and Shelby Holliday, thanks to both of you. Paul, because im talking to jerome corsi i want to get you on reaction to that later in the show so stick around. Coming up, im going to have a live interview with a mueller witness and a witness at the heart of the Mueller Probe. Jerome corsi says the mueller team may incite him. Were also getting new leaks about how trump answered the questions on collusion. And ivanka Trump Defends her email use that led to, yes, her own fathers fans chanting lock her up. And, later, Stormy Daniels breaking with Michael Avenatti and saying things that question his role in the attorney in the definition suit against trump. Im ari melber and youre watching the beat on msnbc. How about some of the lowest options fees . Are you raising your hand . Good then its time for power e trade the platform, price and service that gives you the edge you need. Alright one quick game of rock, paper, scissors. 1, 2, 3, go. E trade. The original place to invest online. The United StatesPostal Service makes more holiday deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. With one notable exception. I am a techie dad. N. I believe the best technology should feel effortless. Like magic. At comcast, its my job to develop, apps and tools that simplify your experience. My name is mike, im in Product Development at comcast. Were working to make things simple, easy and awesome. Bob muellers office doesnt leak, but one of their potential criminal targets is leaking. The entire draft indictment and statement of offense, i want to show it to you right here. This is a draft Court Document mueller said he could use to charge jerome corsi, a Rod Rosenstein associate with lying to the fbi about several things, including conversations he had with stone that relate to wikileaks. Thats why the name of a very controversial figure who, according to this leak could be charged with a felony in the Mueller Probe any time, his name is in the news in a big way. Jerome corsi. Jerome corps. I corsi having conversations with roger stone. Jerome corsi, Rod Rosenstein associate. The corsi story. Jerome corsi is live on the beat. Thank you for being here. Great to be here. You were offered a plea deal by bob muellers team . Thats correct. Why did you reject it . It was fraudulent. It required me to lie and it required me to violate various regulations and even i thought commit fraud and i wont do that. I will not lie to keep myself out of jail and i realize that i could go to jail for the rest of my life. Im 72 years old. I might die in jail but im still making this decision. You think what youre doing today increases the risk that you will be charged, be convicted, and die in jail . Yes, i do. When you look at this plea negotiation, you did enter into some kind of discussions with them. What would you have accepted . What would a plea deal look like that you would take . I would have taken immunity. Thats not a plea deal, thats just immunity. Thats my terms they proposed this and said we want you to consider it. This first count which they said you only have to agree to one count but you have to go in front of a federal judge and swear this on a bible. Now, for me to do that, i believe in my heart would have been a lie. That counts as that i knowingly and willfully presented information i knew to be false with an intent to deceive federal authorities. I do not believe i did that. In my heart i went in to tell the truth and i wont swear before god and a judge something i consider to be a lie. But you did Say Something at the time that you now acknowledge to be false . No, i acknowledge that what i testified day one because i had not seen my 2016 emails i understand but im going to hold you on this. Go ahead. You led them to believe that you did not have contact with someone on behalf of roger stone when you did. The statement i gave the first day was wrong. And it was wrong because i forgot the email that theyre referring to. I had not seen it in two years. Lets show this so viewers can understand because this stuff is obviously important to your life but its important to the probe. Here it is, the mueller on this document says corsi contacted an individual in london to pass on person one, roger stones request to learn about wikileaks materials for the campaign. You did do that. And the special counsel allowed me to amend the original testimony and i testified after i saw the email that that was true and a fact and i didnt deny it. And heres the, exhale y ee you provided to nbc news. This individual should see assange. Correct. At the time, what were you trying to do . Were you trying to get information about the stolen Clinton Emails back to the Trump Campaign . Yes. Yes. And obviously i wanted would havent sent that if i didnt want malloch to go. Everyone who was a political associate when assange dumped these emails on Debbie Wasserman schultz, said he had more, everybody wanted to know what they were. You wanted them out, though, to help the Trum