Transcripts For MSNBCW The Beat With Ari Melber 20180219 : c

That news is coming while washington still digests this unprecedented set of charges by bob mueller against 13 russians conducting Information Warfare for election interference. All this news has caused donald trump to lash out, even by hes own standards, quite the tweet storm this weekend. He falsely insisted the mueller indictments clear him. They dont. He even lashed out at his own National Security adviser. But he did fail to address two points. One, whether he will punish russia for these attacks, and two, whether hell try to stop them again. What is it were going to do about the threat posed by the russians . He never talks about that. Its all about himself. Why is President Trump failing to act to protect our democracy. Its inexplicable that the president of the United States continues to sit on sanctions. Not once, sir, as he condemned russia. Does that bother you . It does because russia is clearly tried to advance their agenda into the United States. Lets get right to it. I have gathered three esteemed former federal prosecutors with expertise in this area. Daniel goldman, prosecuting international crimes. Philip worked at the criminal division, and barbara mcquade, who has overseen corruption and terror cases as a u. S. Attorney. All of you guys are great, and i see philip getting the water ready, which is also key. You have to be hydrated rubio style. Barbara, let me start with you. If rick gates pleads guilty, what does it mean for this probe . It could be helpful, certainly, in the manafort investigation. It could be that his cooperation helps in any trial of Paul Manafort by providing someone who can explain and connect the dots for prosecutors. But i also think it could ultimately help in a prosecution of connections between russia and the Trump Campaign if he has information about that, because either he has his own information about it, gates does, or he could induce cooperation from Paul Manafort, if manaforts conviction becomes inevitable with the cooperation of rick gates, it could cause him to enter a guilty plea and try to cooperate. And of course, Paul Manafort as a former campaign chairman, may have information that is useful. Speak to barbaras point, which anyone will recognize from any outdoor barbecuing and it is president s day, you go up to the grill, you dont flip one burger. You flip all the burgers in a row. The idea, at least the goal of the mueller prosecutors and the team here, which includes folks from the Enron Task Force that cracked some pretty tough suspects and defendants. The goal would be not only to flip gates this week, in days, according to the reporting we have, but that would lead to manafort flipping. Is that in your view at all possible or is that overstating the case . I dont think thats impossible or overstating the case. You know, all of us who are prosecutors learned very early on, mostly doing drugs and guns cases, that you start at the bottom and you build up. As you go up, you find someone who has the information that will help you get the next guy and the guy after that. I frankly think, you know, given the leak that mr. Gates is about to plea, that they have flipped him. They have already done an extensive debrief of them. Otherwise, they wouldnt be offering a deal. Philip, your legal analysis, again, as i mentioned it because you have done it, being a prosecutor who did this kind of work, we wouldnt even be hearing this if mueller didnt already know what gates has. Yes. I think thats right. I mean, it sounds to me that they have or theyre very close to striking a deal with him. That they have offered some form of leniency, perhaps not in writing but an agreement if he delivers on what hes offered, that theyll file a motion to reduce his sentence, whats called a 5k at sentencing. Theyre very likely, very close, and they know what he said or what he will say. Either through a proffer from his attorney or more likely through a direct interview, proffer from him. Yeah, and thats a remarkable place that were in because a year ago, daniel, you would not have been sitting here thinking that the people running the Trump Campaign, the campaign manager, the deputy, and mike flynn, clearly the most senior National Security voice they had, would all be in this predicament. Yet you run that against the reason your rer here, which is what does it mean to prosecute foreign nationals. Take a listen to h. R. Mcmaster speaking at this munich conference, making waves in his view of what mueller found. And as you can see with the fbi indictment, the evidence is now really incontrovertible and available in the public domain. Lets be clear. Thats mike flynns replacement. That is the man, right, talking about the investigation that got a guilty plea of his predecessor. And then you look to the skepticism, which we always cover all sides and reactions here. There is a skeptical view in the United States, particularly among some trump allies of what does it even mean to indict foreigners and is it really a big deal . You have done this before. Does it matter . Well, it matters in a whole host of different ways. One, it could matter because youre bringing people to justice from overseas. And as long as you have jurisdiction here in the United States, based on their conduct touching upon the United States, then thats obviously the number one primary goal. But second, you have two other potential goals. One is what we would often call naming and shaming. In this case, where you dont really expect to get anyone in court. You dont expect to arrest anyone. The United States does not have an extradition treaty with russia. And russia will almost certainly not agree to extradite their own citizens. Which is actually more common than you would expect. But you want to put out in the Public Record what crimes foreign internationals have committed against the United States. And so you have that aspect of what the mueller indictment is. This is really a document of historical record, as to what occurred related to social media infiltration of the 2016 election. When you lay that predicate, philip, can that then be used for potential american collaboration in any foreign conspiracy . Well, yes. I see this as the beginning of a series of indictments, perhaps. This lays out the case that there was, you know, from the mueller investigation, that there is in fact evidence of russian meddling. Its very specific. Its interesting to me, you know, how specific it is. It indicates that they have some source of information that gave them inside information that they believe is authentic. And this doesnt mean that thats the end of it. I think you can go from here to there to there. I agree that this could very well be an indictment for public consumption, to indicate that there is a there there, to refute some of the messaging thats been in the press and from the congress over the past and the administration over the past several weeks. But it also could be used to influence and put pressure on people to provide information. Right. Its absolutely clear that they will not extradite from russia. Right. Let me give daniel, you wanted to respond to that. I actually think as to this sliver of the investigation, this is probably it in my view. Based on reading the indictment, when you talk about the Campaign Officials and you see them, they are floridabased officials that have nothing to do with the central campaign, as referenced in the indictment. And the indictment specifically says, refers to them as unwitting. I think if you were to foreshadow further indictments, as to this aspect of it, you would see unindicted coconspirator language. Which leaves open one of the big kahunas, to use a legal term, all the criminal hacking, which isnt even mentioned in here, and barbara, i have to ask you about a big report, and we always give credit where its due. This one today late today from cnn, that the Mueller Probe will be looking at Jared Kushners financial arrangements. I will read to you briefly what no one less of an authority than James Clapper said, which is this indictment doesnt even address the potential involvement of the russian government and financial entanglements in the trump organization. He mentioned that for whatever reason. You view of that angle and that scrutiny on kushner. Remember, just as we saw with Paul Manafort and rick gates, the special counsel has jurisdicti jurisdiction, not just to look at links between russia and the Trump Campaign in relation to the 2016 president ial campaign, but anything that might arise in the course of that investigation. So one of the things any prosecutor would do would be to get their arms around the financial records in a case like this, to see if there is any money flowing back and forth to provide motivation and connections. If in the course of that he is to find charges, potential charges against anyone that hes looking at, including Jared Kushner, its fair game to charge that. It could be that we see charges against Jared Kushner for Money Laundering or financial fraud unrelated to the russia probe. But thats just because they were looking there, they were in a place where they had Legal Authority to be looking, and they saw evidence in plain view. You could see charges like that. Right, they saw and they acted. Barbara mcquade, philip, and daniel, thank you to each of you. Coming up, facebooks response to the mueller indictment and why donald trump is quoting it. Malcolm nance joins me live about putins secret plan to continue to abuse social media. And a key question in the indictment tonight. Why did the russians support not only trump, which we heard about, but Bernie Sanders and how early . I have a special breakdown on that tonight in the hoe. And my interview with one of the biggest stars of the biggest films in america. Leader of the i accept your challenge. Glory to honor man. Starting from wakanda, now were here. Winston duke, the villain from black panther is in studio, on the beat. Im ari melber and well be right back. Or make a back seat that feels nothing like a back seat . Why give it every feature you could want, along with a few you didnt know you needed . Its simple. You can build a car, or you can build a cadillac. Come in now for this exceptional offer on the cadillac ct6. Get this lowmileage lease on this 2018 cadillac ct6 from around 549 per month. Visit your local cadillac dealer. From around 549 per month. Wild thing applebees handcrafted burgers. Any burger just 7. 99. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. My bladder leakage was making me feel like i couldnt spend time with my grandson. Now depend fitflex has their fastest absorbing material inside, so it keeps me dry and protected. Go to depend. Com get a coupon and try them for yourself. I tabut with my back paines, i couldnt sleep and get up in time. Then i found aleve pm. Aleve pm is the only one to combine a safe sleep aid plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve. Im back. Aleve pm for a better am. Today, smart planning is helping the new new york rise higher than ever. As the world leader in unmanned aerial systems, were attracting the worlds best talent to central new york. And turning the airport into a firstclass transportation hub. All while growing urban areas into vibrant places to live and work. Across new york state, were building the new new york. To grow your business with us in new york state, visit esd. Ny. Gov. But their nutritional needs remain instinctual. K state, thats why theres purina one true instinct. Real meat 1. A different breed of natural nutrition. Purina one true instinct. Now, try new purina one true instinct treats. You know whats not awesome . Gigspeed internet. When only certain people can get it. Lets fix that. Lets give this guy gig really . And these kids, and these guys, him, ah. Oh hello. That lady, these houses yes, yes and yes. And dont forget about them. Uh huh, sure. Still yes xfinity delivers gig speed to more homes than anyone. Now you can get it, too. Welcome to the party. The new mueller indictment argues russia weaponized facebook. Mueller cites facebook and its Company Instagram a lot. The russians created hundreds of accounts and facebook pages. Elaborate scheme to influence the 2016 election through social media. Russians then allegedly stole Social Security numbers and dates of birth of real americans without their knowledge. Opening paypal accounts in their names to buy political ads on sites like facebook. And the russians creating these groups impersonating american activists, over 100 million americans saw them. The russians also used facebook to organize rallies in the real world like that one in houston. They even mimicked trumps own language, saying what about organizing a huge pro trump flash mob. What did Mark Zuckerberg say about this new indictment . Not much. They had a lower level executive say in his opinion of the russian ads, the main goal was not swaying the election. Mr. Goldman appears to think his opinion is key. Donald trump even quoted it over the weekend. But facebook is actually wrong here. Mueller just charged a criminal conspiracy on the premise that the election meddling was part of russias goal. Im joined now by malcolm nance. Why did facebook become so key for this russian operation . Its very simple. Facebook was one of the largest social media platforms in the world. And the russians, in a way they wanted to alter the perception of how america saw whatever meta narrative they wanted to introduce, which in this case was Hillary Clinton bad, donald trump awesome. And by doing that, facebook became not just a tool. They became a guided Weapon System in which everything that the russians wanted to inject into the conversation was turned into a weapon and they hacked the mindset of the american public, who used facebook. Take a listen to mr. Goldman, who like other facebook leaders, seems to operate on the premise that they just understand this better than people like you, that have all this intel experience, and better than others who study this. This was him explaining the approach to advertising. The facebook ad products are differentiated primarily by the fact that facebook is so knowledgeable about people. And we just try to kind of run that loop over and over again, getting smarter as we go. A loop where they get smarter. Why do they seem to still struggle not only with combatting this, which you and i have discussed before. There are difficult parts to it, not to scapegoat, but they seem to struggle with even having a civic dialogue about this at a point where america is obviously concerned about this. Well, as we know, 150 million americans may have been exposed to russian created propaganda for this election. Through exposure through facebook and other platforms. You wouldnt have them say this exact same statement if we were talking two years ago about isis media. And isis posting, which were out there. I wrote a whole book on isis social media and facebook and twitter went immediately after them, saw that content, and shut it down. But youre talking about content which is not immediately identifiable as coming from a hostile actor. Were talking about an operation which hacked the mindset of every person who retweeted some of these, you know, bots and information that came from russias propaganda organ, and it is on a state level. I mean, youre talking hundreds of people involved in this, millions of dollars per month, not to mention the very fact that they have been doing this for 70 years. Its just now their propaganda can go by the key stroke. You make such an important point. Isis, which is to be taken seriously, is still fundamentally a wanna be state. Were talking about a Nuclear Power here with tremendous experience that is being deployed on facebook and elsewhere against us. Malcolm nance, as always, benefit from your expertise. Up ahead, my special report tonight that i have been working on, looking at how the russians supported, yes, donald trump, but also Bernie Sanders and how they weaponized our primaries and what we need to do about it. And later, the black panther star winston duke is here after a recordsetting weekend at the box office. Excuse me, are you aware of whats happening right now . Were facing 20 billion security events every day. Ddos campaigns, ransomware, malware attacks. Actually, we just handled all the priority threats. You did that . We did that. Really. We analyzed millions of articles and reports. We can identify threats 50 faster. You can do that . We can do that. Then do that. Can we do that . We can do that. The other top story tonight, our special report. Bob muellers indictment of russians interfering in the election clarifies what many have suggested while the operation had many goals, when it came to the campaigns, they supported two major party candidates, trump and Bernie Sanders. They used Information Warfare to support sanders and trump. The story in the indictment is honestly so detailed, much of it still hasnt sunk in as of tonight. And apart from donald trump, the new facts in here about the 2016 democratic primary are important. Mueller showing for the first time that the russian strategy to boost trump and sanders was set early in the primaries when both candidates won their first primaries. This was the scene in New Hampshire on february 9th. Onetime long shot Bernie Sanders crushed Hillary Clinton. We harnest the energy and excitement that the Information Warfare<\/a> for election interference. All this news has caused donald trump to lash out, even by hes own standards, quite the tweet storm this weekend. He falsely insisted the mueller indictments clear him. They dont. He even lashed out at his own National Security<\/a> adviser. But he did fail to address two points. One, whether he will punish russia for these attacks, and two, whether hell try to stop them again. What is it were going to do about the threat posed by the russians . He never talks about that. Its all about himself. Why is President Trump<\/a> failing to act to protect our democracy. Its inexplicable that the president of the United States<\/a> continues to sit on sanctions. Not once, sir, as he condemned russia. Does that bother you . It does because russia is clearly tried to advance their agenda into the United States<\/a>. Lets get right to it. I have gathered three esteemed former federal prosecutors with expertise in this area. Daniel goldman, prosecuting international crimes. Philip worked at the criminal division, and barbara mcquade, who has overseen corruption and terror cases as a u. S. Attorney. All of you guys are great, and i see philip getting the water ready, which is also key. You have to be hydrated rubio style. Barbara, let me start with you. If rick gates pleads guilty, what does it mean for this probe . It could be helpful, certainly, in the manafort investigation. It could be that his cooperation helps in any trial of Paul Manafort<\/a> by providing someone who can explain and connect the dots for prosecutors. But i also think it could ultimately help in a prosecution of connections between russia and the Trump Campaign<\/a> if he has information about that, because either he has his own information about it, gates does, or he could induce cooperation from Paul Manafort<\/a>, if manaforts conviction becomes inevitable with the cooperation of rick gates, it could cause him to enter a guilty plea and try to cooperate. And of course, Paul Manafort<\/a> as a former campaign chairman, may have information that is useful. Speak to barbaras point, which anyone will recognize from any outdoor barbecuing and it is president s day, you go up to the grill, you dont flip one burger. You flip all the burgers in a row. The idea, at least the goal of the mueller prosecutors and the team here, which includes folks from the Enron Task Force<\/a> that cracked some pretty tough suspects and defendants. The goal would be not only to flip gates this week, in days, according to the reporting we have, but that would lead to manafort flipping. Is that in your view at all possible or is that overstating the case . I dont think thats impossible or overstating the case. You know, all of us who are prosecutors learned very early on, mostly doing drugs and guns cases, that you start at the bottom and you build up. As you go up, you find someone who has the information that will help you get the next guy and the guy after that. I frankly think, you know, given the leak that mr. Gates is about to plea, that they have flipped him. They have already done an extensive debrief of them. Otherwise, they wouldnt be offering a deal. Philip, your legal analysis, again, as i mentioned it because you have done it, being a prosecutor who did this kind of work, we wouldnt even be hearing this if mueller didnt already know what gates has. Yes. I think thats right. I mean, it sounds to me that they have or theyre very close to striking a deal with him. That they have offered some form of leniency, perhaps not in writing but an agreement if he delivers on what hes offered, that theyll file a motion to reduce his sentence, whats called a 5k at sentencing. Theyre very likely, very close, and they know what he said or what he will say. Either through a proffer from his attorney or more likely through a direct interview, proffer from him. Yeah, and thats a remarkable place that were in because a year ago, daniel, you would not have been sitting here thinking that the people running the Trump Campaign<\/a>, the campaign manager, the deputy, and mike flynn, clearly the most senior National Security<\/a> voice they had, would all be in this predicament. Yet you run that against the reason your rer here, which is what does it mean to prosecute foreign nationals. Take a listen to h. R. Mcmaster speaking at this munich conference, making waves in his view of what mueller found. And as you can see with the fbi indictment, the evidence is now really incontrovertible and available in the public domain. Lets be clear. Thats mike flynns replacement. That is the man, right, talking about the investigation that got a guilty plea of his predecessor. And then you look to the skepticism, which we always cover all sides and reactions here. There is a skeptical view in the United States<\/a>, particularly among some trump allies of what does it even mean to indict foreigners and is it really a big deal . You have done this before. Does it matter . Well, it matters in a whole host of different ways. One, it could matter because youre bringing people to justice from overseas. And as long as you have jurisdiction here in the United States<\/a>, based on their conduct touching upon the United States<\/a>, then thats obviously the number one primary goal. But second, you have two other potential goals. One is what we would often call naming and shaming. In this case, where you dont really expect to get anyone in court. You dont expect to arrest anyone. The United States<\/a> does not have an extradition treaty with russia. And russia will almost certainly not agree to extradite their own citizens. Which is actually more common than you would expect. But you want to put out in the Public Record<\/a> what crimes foreign internationals have committed against the United States<\/a>. And so you have that aspect of what the mueller indictment is. This is really a document of historical record, as to what occurred related to social media infiltration of the 2016 election. When you lay that predicate, philip, can that then be used for potential american collaboration in any foreign conspiracy . Well, yes. I see this as the beginning of a series of indictments, perhaps. This lays out the case that there was, you know, from the mueller investigation, that there is in fact evidence of russian meddling. Its very specific. Its interesting to me, you know, how specific it is. It indicates that they have some source of information that gave them inside information that they believe is authentic. And this doesnt mean that thats the end of it. I think you can go from here to there to there. I agree that this could very well be an indictment for public consumption, to indicate that there is a there there, to refute some of the messaging thats been in the press and from the congress over the past and the administration over the past several weeks. But it also could be used to influence and put pressure on people to provide information. Right. Its absolutely clear that they will not extradite from russia. Right. Let me give daniel, you wanted to respond to that. I actually think as to this sliver of the investigation, this is probably it in my view. Based on reading the indictment, when you talk about the Campaign Officials<\/a> and you see them, they are floridabased officials that have nothing to do with the central campaign, as referenced in the indictment. And the indictment specifically says, refers to them as unwitting. I think if you were to foreshadow further indictments, as to this aspect of it, you would see unindicted coconspirator language. Which leaves open one of the big kahunas, to use a legal term, all the criminal hacking, which isnt even mentioned in here, and barbara, i have to ask you about a big report, and we always give credit where its due. This one today late today from cnn, that the Mueller Probe<\/a> will be looking at Jared Kushners<\/a> financial arrangements. I will read to you briefly what no one less of an authority than James Clapper<\/a> said, which is this indictment doesnt even address the potential involvement of the russian government and financial entanglements in the trump organization. He mentioned that for whatever reason. You view of that angle and that scrutiny on kushner. Remember, just as we saw with Paul Manafort<\/a> and rick gates, the special counsel has jurisdicti jurisdiction, not just to look at links between russia and the Trump Campaign<\/a> in relation to the 2016 president ial campaign, but anything that might arise in the course of that investigation. So one of the things any prosecutor would do would be to get their arms around the financial records in a case like this, to see if there is any money flowing back and forth to provide motivation and connections. If in the course of that he is to find charges, potential charges against anyone that hes looking at, including Jared Kushner<\/a>, its fair game to charge that. It could be that we see charges against Jared Kushner<\/a> for Money Laundering<\/a> or financial fraud unrelated to the russia probe. But thats just because they were looking there, they were in a place where they had Legal Authority<\/a> to be looking, and they saw evidence in plain view. You could see charges like that. Right, they saw and they acted. Barbara mcquade, philip, and daniel, thank you to each of you. Coming up, facebooks response to the mueller indictment and why donald trump is quoting it. Malcolm nance joins me live about putins secret plan to continue to abuse social media. And a key question in the indictment tonight. Why did the russians support not only trump, which we heard about, but Bernie Sanders<\/a> and how early . I have a special breakdown on that tonight in the hoe. And my interview with one of the biggest stars of the biggest films in america. Leader of the i accept your challenge. Glory to honor man. Starting from wakanda, now were here. Winston duke, the villain from black panther is in studio, on the beat. Im ari melber and well be right back. Or make a back seat that feels nothing like a back seat . Why give it every feature you could want, along with a few you didnt know you needed . Its simple. You can build a car, or you can build a cadillac. Come in now for this exceptional offer on the cadillac ct6. Get this lowmileage lease on this 2018 cadillac ct6 from around 549 per month. Visit your local cadillac dealer. From around 549 per month. Wild thing applebees handcrafted burgers. Any burger just 7. 99. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. My bladder leakage was making me feel like i couldnt spend time with my grandson. Now depend fitflex has their fastest absorbing material inside, so it keeps me dry and protected. Go to depend. Com get a coupon and try them for yourself. I tabut with my back paines, i couldnt sleep and get up in time. Then i found aleve pm. Aleve pm is the only one to combine a safe sleep aid plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve. Im back. Aleve pm for a better am. Today, smart planning is helping the new new york rise higher than ever. As the world leader in unmanned aerial systems, were attracting the worlds best talent to central new york. And turning the airport into a firstclass transportation hub. All while growing urban areas into vibrant places to live and work. Across new york state, were building the new new york. To grow your business with us in new york state, visit esd. Ny. Gov. But their nutritional needs remain instinctual. K state, thats why theres purina one true instinct. Real meat 1. A different breed of natural nutrition. Purina one true instinct. Now, try new purina one true instinct treats. You know whats not awesome . Gigspeed internet. When only certain people can get it. Lets fix that. Lets give this guy gig really . And these kids, and these guys, him, ah. Oh hello. That lady, these houses yes, yes and yes. And dont forget about them. Uh huh, sure. Still yes xfinity delivers gig speed to more homes than anyone. Now you can get it, too. Welcome to the party. The new mueller indictment argues russia weaponized facebook. Mueller cites facebook and its Company Instagram<\/a> a lot. The russians created hundreds of accounts and facebook pages. Elaborate scheme to influence the 2016 election through social media. Russians then allegedly stole Social Security<\/a> numbers and dates of birth of real americans without their knowledge. Opening paypal accounts in their names to buy political ads on sites like facebook. And the russians creating these groups impersonating american activists, over 100 million americans saw them. The russians also used facebook to organize rallies in the real world like that one in houston. They even mimicked trumps own language, saying what about organizing a huge pro trump flash mob. What did Mark Zuckerberg<\/a> say about this new indictment . Not much. They had a lower level executive say in his opinion of the russian ads, the main goal was not swaying the election. Mr. Goldman appears to think his opinion is key. Donald trump even quoted it over the weekend. But facebook is actually wrong here. Mueller just charged a criminal conspiracy on the premise that the election meddling was part of russias goal. Im joined now by malcolm nance. Why did facebook become so key for this russian operation . Its very simple. Facebook was one of the largest social media platforms in the world. And the russians, in a way they wanted to alter the perception of how america saw whatever meta narrative they wanted to introduce, which in this case was Hillary Clinton<\/a> bad, donald trump awesome. And by doing that, facebook became not just a tool. They became a guided Weapon System<\/a> in which everything that the russians wanted to inject into the conversation was turned into a weapon and they hacked the mindset of the american public, who used facebook. Take a listen to mr. Goldman, who like other facebook leaders, seems to operate on the premise that they just understand this better than people like you, that have all this intel experience, and better than others who study this. This was him explaining the approach to advertising. The facebook ad products are differentiated primarily by the fact that facebook is so knowledgeable about people. And we just try to kind of run that loop over and over again, getting smarter as we go. A loop where they get smarter. Why do they seem to still struggle not only with combatting this, which you and i have discussed before. There are difficult parts to it, not to scapegoat, but they seem to struggle with even having a civic dialogue about this at a point where america is obviously concerned about this. Well, as we know, 150 million americans may have been exposed to russian created propaganda for this election. Through exposure through facebook and other platforms. You wouldnt have them say this exact same statement if we were talking two years ago about isis media. And isis posting, which were out there. I wrote a whole book on isis social media and facebook and twitter went immediately after them, saw that content, and shut it down. But youre talking about content which is not immediately identifiable as coming from a hostile actor. Were talking about an operation which hacked the mindset of every person who retweeted some of these, you know, bots and information that came from russias propaganda organ, and it is on a state level. I mean, youre talking hundreds of people involved in this, millions of dollars per month, not to mention the very fact that they have been doing this for 70 years. Its just now their propaganda can go by the key stroke. You make such an important point. Isis, which is to be taken seriously, is still fundamentally a wanna be state. Were talking about a Nuclear Power<\/a> here with tremendous experience that is being deployed on facebook and elsewhere against us. Malcolm nance, as always, benefit from your expertise. Up ahead, my special report tonight that i have been working on, looking at how the russians supported, yes, donald trump, but also Bernie Sanders<\/a> and how they weaponized our primaries and what we need to do about it. And later, the black panther star winston duke is here after a recordsetting weekend at the box office. Excuse me, are you aware of whats happening right now . Were facing 20 billion security events every day. Ddos campaigns, ransomware, malware attacks. Actually, we just handled all the priority threats. You did that . We did that. Really. We analyzed millions of articles and reports. We can identify threats 50 faster. You can do that . We can do that. Then do that. Can we do that . We can do that. The other top story tonight, our special report. Bob muellers indictment of russians interfering in the election clarifies what many have suggested while the operation had many goals, when it came to the campaigns, they supported two major party candidates, trump and Bernie Sanders<\/a>. They used Information Warfare<\/a> to support sanders and trump. The story in the indictment is honestly so detailed, much of it still hasnt sunk in as of tonight. And apart from donald trump, the new facts in here about the 2016 democratic primary are important. Mueller showing for the first time that the russian strategy to boost trump and sanders was set early in the primaries when both candidates won their first primaries. This was the scene in New Hampshire<\/a> on february 9th. Onetime long shot Bernie Sanders<\/a> crushed Hillary Clinton<\/a>. We harnest the energy and excitement that the Democratic Party<\/a> will need to succeed in november. Trump trouncing the field, beating secondplace john kasich by more than 50,000 votes. I love you all. Thank you, New Hampshire<\/a>. Thank you. The very next day, we now know, russian planners ordered their operatives to criticize clinton and the other candidates, quote, except sanders and trump. We support them. That was going on at the beginning of the primary race. This was like literally the day after the first primary. Think about that. On the same day that americans are waking up to headlines about who won the first primaries, russians are giving their orders to support those two candidates. And that early start has not been the conventional narrative about russias boost for sanders. Take Bernie Sanders<\/a> himself, who claims in a new interview russians basically interfered at the end of his campaign. At the end of my campaign, when it appeared that clinton was going to win, and certainly after she won the nomination, what the russians were doing is flocking to Bernie Sanders<\/a> facebook sites, and they were saying to Bernie Sanders<\/a> supporters, if you voted for sanders, you have to understand, Hillary Clinton<\/a> is crazy. Shes a murderer. Shes terrible. All kinds of horrible, horrible things about Hillary Clinton<\/a>. That may be how senator sanders remembers it, but now we know it began much earlier with the february marching orders, and the next month, sanders aide says a huge amount of fake news story targeted sanders supporters and he alerted a contact at the Clinton Campaign<\/a> warning it was an effort to suppress the vote of sanders supporters in order to help trump. By that summer, clinton clinched the nomination, but the russians were chnt done. They routed hacked emails to wikileaks which did devastating damage to clinton at the very moment she was aiming to reunite a fractured party. We have got to elect Hillary Clinton<\/a> and tim kaine. Sanders supporters began screaming his name, disrupting the program and shattering any illusions of party unity. It was a mess, and sanders called for the ousting of the dnc chair in response to the hacked emails. Heres how the New York Times<\/a> reported the start of the convention. Democrats arrived at their nominating convention under a cloud of discord as Debbie Wasserman<\/a> schultz, the dnc chair, abruptly said she was resigning after a trove of leaked emails showed Party Officials<\/a> conspiring to sabotage Bernie Sanders<\/a>. The revelation, the times reports, along with the prosanders protests, threatened to undermine the healing process following the fight between the two, and the day veered into allegations that russian leaks helped bring down the head of an american political party. Extraordinary veering. Sounds like a race track you dont want to be on. That was the times report during it. To paraphrase an internet saying. Russian election interference comes at you fast. Now, people werent sure what to make of wikileaks dropping those emails about alleged dnc bias against sanders. Wikileaks had broken other true stores over the years and honestly, calm debate is more difficult in the heat of a primary. Sanders supporters were genuinely upset about the content of the emails. Now we know the full extent of russias role, it is worth reflecting on how russia did achieveilities exact goal of Democratic Division<\/a> in that convention, and how the conventional narrative at the time driven by political actors, and yes, the media, didnt always emphasize how much that meltdown in philadelphia was stoked by a foreign power. Thousands of leaked emails showed Democratic Party<\/a> officials possibly plotting against Bernie Sanders<\/a>. The latest emails released by wikileaks suggests that top officials at the Democratic National<\/a> committee planned to undermine Bernie Sanders<\/a>. Suspected russian leak of embarrassing Democratic National<\/a> committee emails. Some reporters did also press on russias role during the convention. Nbcs Andrea Mitchell<\/a> raising the point with Bernie Sanders<\/a> campaign manager, who didnt welcome russias help. We have been told by the computer experts theres a strong suspicion the russians were behind the original hack. Do you have concern about a foreign adversary trying to influence the election . Potentially on behalf of donald trump, who has praised Vladimir Putin<\/a> . Certainly a very, very disturbing. We dont want foreign powers trying to influence u. S. Elections. No doubt about that. That was in the middle of the convention. Thats, of course, the right cent answer. As more came out, more journalists dug into just how deeply this russian operation exploited the democratic primary battle. They used automated social media bots and what appeared to be paid operatives in russia and other countries, specifically to target bernie supporters. They took the real split in the Democratic Party<\/a> between Hillary Clinton<\/a> and Bernie Sanders<\/a> and they blew it up into what they hoped would be an unbreachable chasm. Russia didnt create that chasm. The democratic primary was already heated. But was everyone too quick to react to criminally stolen property exactly the way the russians wanted . Was the press too excited about secret scoops to give voters the properly context . Were political leaders too happy to then seize on those scoops, you know, looking back on the election last year, at one point, i did ask senator sanders about his call for the dnc chair to resign after russia hacked the emails. You among others called for her to resign, in part after those leaks. What we didnt fully know then that is so understood now is those were partly operations of russia. Did you in a way benefit from that, and would you do it differently then knowing what we know now . Well, knowing what we know now, you know, doesnt help me figure out what i would have done back then. The russians cannot be allowed to get away with that stuff. Did you know then that this might have been part of their design, was to leak these emails precisely so there would be more rifts in the Democratic Party<\/a> . What we knew is well, of course, we knew that. Of course we knew they were trying to cause divisiveness within the Democratic Party<\/a>. Thats no great secret. Of course we knew. But if we knew the extent of that russian operation, wouldnt we all consider doing things differently . Look, i do get it. A lot of politicians, they dont like hypothetical questions because it seems like just another attempt at a gotcha moment. But this is important. Right now, were living through an attack on our democracy. What we learn in hindsight can help with our foresight. No one is accusing senator sanders of being just like trump because they both got name checked by russian operatives. The context is different. The russians backed trump to help trump. And the russians backed sanders at the convention to hurt clinton. In other words, to help trump. The campaign behavior is also different. Sanders staff not accused of meeting with russians to get opo, and Bernie Sanders<\/a> didnt respond to any of this news by brazenly acting putin for helping hack his opponents emails. When it came to her state department emails, sanders even agreed that was a distraction. The American People<\/a> are sick and tires of hearing about your damn emails. So, let me state clearly, there is no equivalence there. Period. But it is worth pressing. Both the candidates that russia boosted in this operation, and it is worth questioning how all of us are going to deal with this ongoing weaponized information. I think its a mistake to view this dilemma only through a partisan lens, as settling scores from an old primary or as a distraction from the larger issue of Donald Trumps<\/a> current russia relationship. When north korea attacks sony over that film the interview it also would have been a mistake to narrow that debate as to whether the interview was a great film. It wasnt. But i think the bigger question is, what should the u. S. Do when foreign powers wage cyber war on american companies. And today, the question is, what do we do when the cyber war is waged on our elections and primaries. Hodo we navigate lakes where on the one hand, they may expose real information, but theyre also agitating for fake news and division. And how do we inoculate ourselves against those efforts and combat them while also retaining the combination of, i guess, of skepticism and good faith, which we need in a civic society. The russians were interfering, again, just last month, back at it. They pushed that Republican Campaign<\/a> to, quote, release the memo. But now, brandnew, mueller is showing they spent 2016 pushing another campaign to elect Bernie Sanders<\/a>. Now, neither of those facts automatically proves whether a given campaign is all good or all bad or something else, but we have to guard against a kind of digital mccarthyism that falls into that kind of trap and we have to guard against acting like this is all just old news that we have already figured out. We havent. These russian efforts, were learning, were very effective, even when done on the cheap, and theyre just getting started. It mentioned me twice, our campaign twice in his report. And i think what he was talking about is kind of old news. Is it old news . Im going to speak about all of this life with the former digital director for Bernie Sanders<\/a> president ial campaign. That is straight ahead. Well be back in just 90 seconds. Let your inner light loose with one a day womens. A complete multivitamin specially formulated with key Nutrients Plus<\/a> vitamin d for bone health support. Your one a day is showing. For more on the fallout from the mueller indictments, im happy to say im joined by kenneth pennington, who was digital director for the Bernie Sanders<\/a> president ial campaign. Thanks for being here. Good to be with you. When you look at what weve learned now, including whats in the mueller indictment on russian meddling, interference, and support, explicitly at times for Bernie Sanders<\/a>, did you know that then during the early primary . No, we knew very little about the thing that were going on. And you have to take yourself back to, you know, you mentioned what was early on in the campaign. This is a multiyear campaign. I started working on this campaign in april 2015. It was a long time, and over that course of that time, we had millions of social engagements. We had 3 Million People<\/a> donate online to the campaign. And we had 81 million volunteer phone calls. So there was a ton of online grassroots volunteer enthusiasm. And it just would have been impossible for someone like me, who is even in this stuff all day, to actually notice what was going on. So we really did not know. Right, and youre more immersed in it than most people. Its very interesting to hear that this was not clear or abundantly in your face at the time. When you look at that history as well, though, about the democratic convention, knowing what we know now, do you think that either the Sanders Campaign<\/a> contingent or just the democraticy at large should not have take nl what we know to be russian bait as much in those divisions over the emails or do you think that was the right way to handle it then . Look, you cant get around the underlying fact that what was revealed and these leaked emails regardless of the source, was very frustrating for a lot of progressive supporters of Bernie Sanders<\/a>. You know, the fact that the dnc leadership tipped the scales in many ways was very frustrating. You cant get around that. That duds, you know, that doesnt mean what russia did was acceptable, and it doesnt mean that we shouldnt consider the source of information when we take a look at it. But theres no doubt that while russia did in terms of meddling with our election, you know, is totally horrible, and that doesnt excuse that. But i do think there are legitimate frustrations that bernie supporters had with the way the primary was handled. And you know, i dont think those become illegitimate because the source of tleaks wa russia. Stay with me. I want to add to this conversation because we wanted to dig into it, jameera, a former deputy millennial director for the Hillary Clinton<\/a> campaign. What do you think about what were learning now that we can see it all together . Whats happening with the information come out, its extremely frustrating, and also clarified hillary did not have this in the bag, and many of the issues she dealt with was reflective of both a foreign entity, the russian government, trying to come in and steer the direction in the wrong way. Whats interesting, i think, about the frustration that many bernie supporters had is unrealistic. Bernie sanders was a democrat for all of yesterday. And to expect that the Democratic Party<\/a> is going to change both its insight and its relationships with the Hillary Clinton<\/a> campaign so overnight is sort of unrealistic. Were not going to relitigate that, at least not here. I think we were just asking for a fair primary. We were not asking for them to bend over backwards for us. The news is russia pushed that. Does the fact that it was a part of a product of a criminal conspiracy of russia make it worse or not . It definitely is worse. Its unrealistic, the fact the president still has not done anything in regards to this, especially as russia is continuing to attack our government. Youre talking about President Trump<\/a> . Im not interviewing you about President Trump<\/a>. This is why these conversations are so hard. When you look at the primary, not blaming trump, which is another part of the conversation, bebut the history we ran through, do you think Hillary Clinton<\/a> was illserved or unfairly treated because people were so quick to respond to what russia hacked and released or not, i guess is my question for you, and then kenneth respond. I fully agree. I think there was lot of propaganda pushed out about Hillary Clinton<\/a> that was false and a lot of perspectives from people that we thought we trusted online that actually turned out to be stolen identities. So i think because of that, it definitely made hillary seem undesirable to many individuals who were trying to decide on a president candidate. Kenneth . I think we have to keep things in context here. Were talking about the Bernie Sanders<\/a> campaign. You know, we had 2500 employees on the campaign at the height of the campaign. So we have to keep things in perspective when were talking about 13 people, how much of an impact can one person have on an election. You dont think the russians had a big impact on the primary . Its impossible for me to measure the impact that someone had or did not have in the primary or in the general election. But theres a view that some of this, and let me give you this, again, to you. Kenneth, there is a view that for various reasons, the level of impact of these russian efforts are overstated. When you look at how tight the democratic primary was, is that your view of it . Its so difficult to say. I mean, i dont even know that i is a full picture. There are new revelations coming out every day. Its hard to get a full picture of what even actually happened, and therefore, for me to measure it would be, you know, irresponsible. But what i do think, you know, we should have in the Democratic Party<\/a> is a little bit of an internal reckoning. We had the worst possible gop candidate in decades that we were running against. We should have clobbered him by 20 points. The fact that we didnt tells me its not just on these outside factors. Its also a bit on us. What were we doing wrong . Where did our message falter . Youre calling on democrats to do more soul searching than just look to russia . Exactly. I have to fit in a break. Kenneth and jameer, i appreciate you coming on together, talking this out. Thanks for being here. Up ahead, saving time for our black panther interview. It opens nationwide and broke records this weekend. Winston duke is here on the beat. vo you can pass down a Subaru Forester<\/a>. But you get to keep the memories. Love. 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It arrives as america faces many racial divisions from the white supremacist rallies to trump debates, who was, of course, elected after this movie began production. This original began in 1966. Mlk leading efforts to force concessions from a white power structure. Stokely carmichael advocating the black Power Movement<\/a>, and calls for more militants as activists like bobby seal created the black panther party. With all the passive power that can be mustered, we will greet you. We will acknowledge you. We greet you with the revolutionary fiber of the people. Black people across the country are becoming politically aware of their position and their strength, and of their ability to move. And the question is whether or not this country is going to be able to meet their needs peacefully or whether theyll have to move to disrupt this country in order to force the country to speak to their needs. That is what black panther meant then. Marvel even briefly changing the name over the association. While mlk spoke about a dream, something hard but attainable, the comic was about fantasy, something you imagine thats probably impossible. Black panther depicts a black hero gifted not only in strength but intellect and equally intelligent strong black women generals fighting alongside him. It mentioned a african nation tat was never colonized and leads the world in tech. But it was in africa the whole time. We are home. Glen weldon writes this is a story about black people completely untouched by colonialism outside the Global Systems<\/a> of institutionized racism. Thats part of what the black Power Movement<\/a> was demanding, a new conception of blackness. Unmarred and uncorrupted by years of racist theology. Jamil smith writes that the black panther comic advanced that agenda with a hero whose, woet, genius intellect was his best attribute. Is that a plot and a fantasy . Is it a memory of recent president ial history . The feminist writer writes that this film is now powerful because it actually presents an alternative to trump era racism and also a positive nostalgia for black achievement that can range from the Obama Coalition<\/a> to the accomplishments of african nations whose history, she argues, shouldnt be controlled by colognial narratives. History, of course, is political, because its written by the people who live to tell it. The future is political because its our debate over what to do about it. This film operates on the level of fantasy and fiction and alternative reality where african kings wield enlightened power and people in different nations spend resources on progress instead of war. What im saying is, it was a great movie. Now the most exciting part may not be the fantasy but the prospect that some day that kind of alternative reality could be a reality. And like any superhero movie, this one has villains, but it also has some complex adversaries like my next guest, who offers this challenge to the black panther king. Leader of the i accept your challenge. Glory to honor man. Let the challenge begin. Im joined by winston duke, who stars in black panther plays the character mbaku. This movie means what to you as an actor . As an african immigrant, as someone in america . This film, i feel, offers an opportunity for people to somewhat reclaim a history that feels incredibly distant and lost. I know i have seen this kind of grandeur with the british briti royals. Ive seen this kind of grandeur and royalty around east asian, south asian, middle eastern bodies. But ive not seen this around black bodies. Black bodies. Ive not seen that around black skin. And that means a lot to me as an adult. And i think its a really great gift to give to children that they can see this and know that there is no limit to their potential. In america, we are a diverse country, which is a strength. But people in the majority dont even think about necessarily representation in the culture. What does it mean when we look at this history that comics, that adventure films, that these kind of movies now have someone for people to look up to . Were continuing this history of trying to help people gain a sense of identity, and for them to see themselves and know that theyre present and that their stories are valid. When i was growing up, it wasnt always that i didnt see black people. It was when i saw black people, the stories were written by white men. The stories were written by white people. And it was up to us as actor, as artists, as creators to bring a sense of integrity and reality to it. Let me bring in jamil smith, who i mentioned because he wrote this piece on black panther for time magazine. Jamil, you listen to this conversation. For folks at home who havent thought about the movie yet or heard as much about it, why does it mean so much . Its about having African American<\/a> stories told through african or African American<\/a> lens. So youre talking about a black director with a majority black cast with this kind of budget. And the first mainstream black superhero that was ever created, and certainly the most popular ever. So all those things combined, in addition you know we think about who the director, ryan coogler, fruitvale station, creed are works that reflect African American<\/a> realities with a frankness and starkness that i think is uncommon for hollywood. And i want to read from another piece who says this is a vivid reimagination of something black americans have cherished for centuries, africa as a dream of our wholeness, greatness, and selfrealization. Jamil, youre talking about who owns history, who writes history, or in this case, how fantasy intersections with history. And it comes at a time when we have a president with his own fantasies about how he defines africa. Right. Certainly we have a president in donald trump who does not seem to visualize an African American<\/a> future in the same way that we as black people certainly do. I think there is a lot of universal themes that if people were sort of scared away by the politics, they will understand that things will apply to their lives as well. Its not simply, you know, a reflection of one particular reality, but in a way a way to articulate how we can all see ourselves through an African American<\/a> lens. Whats interesting you use that phrase. If people are more scared by the politics than by whats supposed to be scary in the movie. Yeah. How did your experience growing up in Trinidad And Tobago<\/a> influence this . Because its about both fantasy, its about africa, and as we discussed, its also about the African American<\/a> experience. I think whats really brilliant about this film is it continues and engages in a lot of really great discussions. The kind of questions of what does it mean to be a citizen and what do you owe, and how do you hold your country accountable. I feel that thats really a timely question right now. Right. And so jamil, when you look at that and you think about the larger arc of these racial debates, the difference between violence and force is legitimacy. And were talking about an experience in American History<\/a> where black citizens were systematically denied legitimacy under color of law. Speak to that in the context of this movie that outlines a different civilization and a different model of black power. Well, certainly. And we certainly shouldnt speak that of in past tense. Thats certainly still happening. First of all, it offers a vision of African American<\/a> or African American<\/a> reality, frankly, that is independent of colonization. And that is a vision of a black reality that can be shared by people in african nations that our president referred to with scatological metaphors, or here in america, in American Cities<\/a> that have been essentially invaded by essentially forces of White Supremacy<\/a> as articulated through policy in our government. So i think that there is a lot of things that black folks who see this film will recognize in their own reality. And while, yes, its just a movie, it doesnt replace the work on the ground. Right. Its not in and of itself a revolution, it may inspire the kid who does indeed lead that revolution some day. Right. Jamil smith and winston duke, i want to thank you so much for coming on the beat. With big dreams. We came with big appetites. With expedia one click gives you access to discounts on thousands of hotels, cars and things to do. Like the Garland Hotel<\/a> for 40 off. Everything you need to go. Expedia you wouldnt accept from any one else. 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Only from allstate. Switching to allstate is worth it. They say that tougher gun laws do not decrease gun violence. We call bs. They say a good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun. We call bs. A student and survivor of that deadly mass murder at Florida High School<\/a> calling for tougher gun laws. These protests are spreading right now. Outside the white house today, there were teenagers from the washington area, and they held what they called a die demonstration to commemorate the violence. A different high school that promises to vote out nra politicians if there is no change. Im 18. We have enough power to start voting our legislators out of office if they dont do what we know is right for our people. We kwlooif with that, because it looks like young people are leading this conversation. That does it for the beat. Hardball is up next. The awol president. Lets play hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews<\/a> from washington. Two major stories. Now russian interference and gun violence. The president of the United States<\/a> is awol. In his response to last weeks School Shooting<\/a> in parkland, florida, that left 17 dead, President Trump<\/a> doesnt mention the word guns. In his absence, a group of high school","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia801005.us.archive.org\/35\/items\/MSNBCW_20180219_230000_The_Beat_With_Ari_Melber\/MSNBCW_20180219_230000_The_Beat_With_Ari_Melber.thumbs\/MSNBCW_20180219_230000_The_Beat_With_Ari_Melber_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240617T12:35:10+00:00"}