0 good evening, i'm stephanie ruhle. it is now just after midnight on the east coast. and we are still following breaking news on the largest nuclear plant in ukraine. they say that a fire broke out in the training compound in the plant, after reportedly came under attack in the russia. tonight, the agency says that no essential commitment has been damaged, the white house saying that it's informations did not show elevated levels of radiation. -- as russia steps up its attacks on several areas outside ukraine. one official explained why the fight on this power pines is so frustrating. >> this is unprecedented, a nuclear power plant has never become under attack. there are -- in place to be hit such attacks. this is another violation by russia. >> let's go by cal perry in lviv, ukraine. cal, we know there is not in the same area as the plant but you're following the story. what do you know? >> so at this hour, we understand that the plant is secure, as the iaea has said. essential quick meant was -- and it took 40 people and ten vehicles from the ukrainian services to put out the fire. the fire was in a training building behind the plant. but it's alarming when you look at the video, and the consistent sustained fire on the plant. the thing is, there is nothing to guarantee that there won't be some time of russian counterattack. we've seen this time and time again. there was two russian tanks, two armored carriers, and civilian standing in the road from starting them from progressing. they came back, and we saw the sustained firefight. now, what we're hearing from the united kingdom sports johnson, is that the events of a few hours ago i should say, are putting all of europe at risk. and similar words from the ukrainian president. saying it was time for europe to wake up. we've seen sustained attacks from civilians in the -- the sumy region. where the sunni region hit, saying there is hell on earth. there is no power,, water heat. as civilians continue to bear the brunt of this war. >> cal perry, thank you. with that, let's bring in our experts. peter baker chief white house correspondent for the new york times. -- and michael mcfaul, former u.s. ambassador to russia and an msnbc international affairs analyst. >> tom, what sticks out to you tonight and what we're learning about this nuclear plant? >> one of the things that is very striking to me is the a certitude that a lot of people have that the attention was to destroy, it somehow. my guess is they're trying to capture that part of the great. shut off the electricity. people have to remember that if there were a disaster at this plant, most of it would blow into russia. because of the way the winds blow. so, once again. the thing i'm struck by is the recklessness and incompetence of the russians in this iron fisted attempt to seize ukraine and to intimidate its people. i do not think at this point, i don't think the goal was to destroy this plant. but this is classic russian military playbook. the classic russian military playbook of being completely reckless around very dangerous things like nuclear plants. >> and we just got word moments ago that the fire has now been completely extinguished. that is an enormous relief. peter, whether or not the fire is extinguished now, what does this attack tell you about the kremlin's strategy for war now? where they're going? >> well one thing it reminds us is that the kremlin does not play by the same rulebook that others through. that when the united states goes to war, there are rules, and sometimes they're violated, and sometimes you have karl sequences that go long. but there is a rule about the kind of targets that you can hit. they have precision weapons for a reason. a nuclear plant would obviously be on the no hitless for any normal country. for russia, either by intent or accident or incompetence, that was not the case. and it shows how dangerous this war really is. how quickly it can get out of hand. how something unintended, unimaginable can occur. and i think that's in the minder of the russian way. i think in the previous hour we talked about chechnya. i was in rosalia as a reporter after the second war. and they had destroyed the compounds. the compound of chechnya that was the result against moscow. almost anything that anybody has seen in europe since world war ii. and we've seen that mentality there, we see it here in ukraine. and we're already seeing in ukraine day after day. >> ambassador, to peter's point, we should not be surprised to see vladimir putin breaking international norms. but when we sit here and say that this constitute war crimes? this is unprecedented! or yesterday, when the un assembly condemned this, urged russia to change course. does any of this matter? are we speaking and language that speaks nothing to vladimir putin? he was never in it for the norms. >> great point. after world war ii, we were down a lot of norms. we created the un security council. one of the norms was, thou shall not annexed the territory of that a neighbor. that's where world war ii started, through annexation. sure enough he did that in 2014. he did that again just a couple of weeks ago. and then, unprovoked war. with no threat whatsoever, to russia from ukraine. that reminds me of september 1st, 1939. so you're absolutely right. he does not care about the norms. but i think that's what's -- and peter are talking about the other part of russia's rights. which is reckless. we think using these words like precision guided missiles, maybe they're not so precise in the russian arsenal as we think they are. i am not convinced that way they are trying to attack this plant. this could be something else. we need to be careful, we're all guessing that we know what happened here, but the reckless part we have a lot of evidence of. and the terrorist part, we have a lot of evidence of. peter wasn't witness, and go everybody, google the photos of chechnya in 1999, 2000. and then add to your search, aleppo in 2016. and you'll see what the russians did there, deliberately, which is terrorizing civilians. to try to bring them into submission, and tragically, i think that is the tracker jake measure that we know with putin's war on ukraine. >> with this recklessness you speak of, who pays the price of? it is a putin? because it is ukrainians who are running for their lives and losing them. >> of course, ukrainians first and foremost. second, everybody go look at their map, to. look at where this power pant is. how close it is, as non said, to russia. it is a lot closer to russia than to poland. so obviously, a disregard for his own people. and remember, a lot of these cities that he's attacking now in the east, they are predominantly russian speakers. and ethnic russians. there's a lot of empty questions in kyiv as well. remember, he has no disregard even for his own people. the question that your hinting at, will there be some moment in the course of this war where because of sanctions, because of discussed with this war back home in russia, that they will actually try to do something about? it and of course we don't know the answer to that. but this will add to the debate. no doubt in my mind, it already is in my feed, i tweet in russian quite a bit this days, there is already people saying what are we doing here? this is crazy! and those are russians saying that. not just ukrainians. >> tom, we dismissed, many people dismiss the impact of sanctions too quickly. right? you can't see sanctions, you don't see it in the street. but what is it actually doing to russia? to the russian economy? it strangling them! we are engaging in warfare. economic warfare. >> the conversation says they can't bring in intermittent military activity. i think people expect too much from sanctions in that sense. war breaks out, we post sanctions and assume that the enemy in this case, will say well we've been sanctioned. i guess we have to stop doing what we're doing. sanctions take a long time to work. i think americans have an almost, undue faith in sanctions. with that said, sanctions can impose a huge amount of pain on the people that putin has thought of as the under bosses, and couples he relies on. and just to point out, the oligarchy's being sanctioned right now, putin particularly cares about. and the russian people, who are gonna bear the brunt of these sanctions, putin does not care about them at all. but, the sanctions are really important in that, for those people out there that we're worried, rightly, that putin could seek a riots of war. this is a reminder of his ability to continue. this myers down, and bogs down his economy, which undermines his ability to make war, it undermines his ability to have a stable home front, so sanctions do have a lot of impacts, they just do not have the immediate impact that people wish they would have, and the wish they could mediately see. in some kind of immediate station of how this is going. >> but there is immediate suffering. we're looking at it, we're looking at images that it on the left side of your screen right now. because of that, peter, how much is this white house under in pressure to do more? >> well, there's a lot of pressure obviously. these pictures are devastating to look at. this devastation, anywhere else than the heart of europe, it's heartbreaking and tragic. and of course that here at home too. there's a lot of mood in america right now that is not very interested in overseas issue. it's not their problem, it's somebody else's problem. and that's something that biden and them say wet is it? why that impacts mean something and the biden impact is thousands of miles away. he, in fact, made a point in the last nine days of racking up, day by day the pressure. each day is squeezing even further on russia right? it hasn't had immediate actions being taken by russia, but it is having an impact, absolutely in russia. the ukrainians are suffering more than anybody. but would also happens as a result of this, is that russia's going to be cut off in the rest of the world. and tens of millions of russia who don't want to be in this war, will oppose this war, and that is in a country where wet little -- you have left is being squashed. the ability to leave the country is being cut off. the belittled be a part of the world is cut off. and then as consequences for the russian -- not just for russia itself. because certainly they are more of a pride state. imagine north korea on the scale, 11 time zones, with the nuclear arsenal, and the capacity that russia has. that's not -- so there are a lot of consequences coming out of this. and a lot of uncertainty as head. as we lead into the future, and beyond the immediate crisis all around ukraine. which is devastating. >> isolating information as well. ambassador, earlier today when we heard from russia and putin saying that things were going as planned, we obviously know that's not the case. but is he saying that because he speaking to the russian people who have such limited information, in a country where the government controls the media, that they really have no idea of what's happening in ukraine? >> yes and no. there was two giant events that happened within just the last 24 hours that has not gotten enough attention. george tv, the number one independent television station was taken on the air, and the iconic echo of russia moscow, a radio station and multi media medial station was also shut down. one of the most important sources of the independent news and russia. that's not a coincidence? putin is doing that because he's worried about news. and by the way, i was on most of those programs within the last few days. they don't want people like me talking about this war in russian. and they cut him off. at the same time, it's a demographic thing. the older you are, the more rural place you live. the less educated you are, the more likely you are to listen to putin's actual television stations. and when you listen to those people, i just watched a cliff about a dozen of those people being interviewed, they all support putin's war. this is the right thing to do. we have to eliminate nazis just as we did before. so this is a much bigger divide in russian society, about information that they received, and therefore, the way they perceive this war. ambassador, you have been all over u.s. cv, but to your point, you have been on russian tv. >> and ukrainian tv! >> are you worried about your own safety? >> well i was also on ukrainian tv, and i just want to say. i really appreciated by the way, the way you have ukrainians coming on your show tonight. and earlier tonight, these are people i know. i think the ukrainian voices need to be louder here in our country, so people can understand and listen to what they're doing. i really applaud that, i hope you do more of that. i was on tv today with ukrainian journalists broadcasting from the big television station, that big tower in the middle of kyiv, that was literally just bombed 24 hours ago, right next to -- . i can't remember the time zone, it's planning to me. so it's hard for me to worry about my security windows people are being brave to try to bring information in their country, the least i can do to participate in the discussion in ukraine. but especially in russia. because my ukrainians friends say, please, please, please help us get the message of what's happening on the ground here in ukraine, into the people of russia. >> while you're certainly getting the message across, peter i see you nodding your head. do you think you want to elaborate? >> that's exactly right, i can see the crowd falling on russians. they are gonna be shut off from information. the russians who are paying attention do not want this war. they are risking their war, their freedom. and their lives in some ways and protesting against it. there's talk about legislation in the russian part that will punish people who protest biden scripting them to the army. and sending them to ukraine! there is talk of people who are literally telling stories about the police locking on their door, saying here is the government. this is returning to a different age. it's not that we have a free country under putin to begin with. but increasingly, small bits of freedom, shreds of freedom where there. he -- he knows that the russian people, if they as a whole can abscess the information, this is something they would like to see. these are the slavic bunch. they are part of the family, if you will. and to see their own children, their own sons shooting at their fabric brothers, i think it is something that will devastate a lot of russians if they saw this going on right now. tom, before move on, we're talking about different support that we are offering ukraine. when nato offers weapons in support, get technical with us. how does get there? who organizes it. especially since so much of what is happening in ukraine is run by civilians. we keep hearing it's a race against time to get ukraine supplies, but who is running this race? >> well, before i talk about that, and even if i knew the exact way the weapons were getting there, it's probably not something i would want to talk about. but, there is something really important to point out, and something in peter just said, this generational divide. the first time i was in the former soviet union was almost 40 years ago, and you could see a lot of a country like that. putin doesn't understand, you can't seal off the russian federation from the rest of the world, from pictures, and information, and from telephones and communication. he can try. he wishes it was the soviet union 40 years ago, but i just don't think it's gonna be successful in that. as for how things get there. this is -- the country is not under some kind of russian quarantine or embargo. this is still a country that is capable of moving goods, services, and people, and weapons, between its neighbors, and other places in europe. so, there is a lot of different ways of weapons can get their. but, we're not at the point yet where, some kind of russian cuba like quarantine where there is some kind of sealed it off. we keep talking about russian control of areas in ukraine. i really want to emphasize that, right now the russians are occupiers. they only control the area as they happen to be standing in at any given moment. this is not -- i think we need to -- we have to be careful about a seeming too much about what the russians are care bubble of. they're not running into town after town and the locals are saying, you win, you're on the city, set up a -- that's not happening. the russians are basically marching in, trying to control the streets and the highways that they are on. mostly, for their own safety. >> tom nichols, peter baker, ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you all so much for coming back and say absolutely with us. we're gonna now turn to the other big story we are following right now, the flow of refugees out of ukraine, more than 1 million forced to flee their homes. my partner ali velshi, let's go back to him at a train station in budapest. ali, the people you're talking to, it appears that they've got the clothes on their back, a suitcase for two. do they think they will be going back to ukraine anytime soon, or do they plan to be gone indefinitely? >> so, that's a really good question. i've spoken to people who seemed very hopeful that they will go back, some say in a month, some say three months. some are relocating, some are going home to countries where they came from, people who are not from ukraine, and they've been their studying or are there on visas. some have family in eastern europe, there are play ball with different connections and different places like hungary, poland, romania, germany. so some people are going to resettle with the relatives. there are still some people here, looking for some final plans as to how to get to some places. you can see here there are people with the red cross, there are church groups helping people out. i will be clear, stephanie, there is no official government presence here at all, there are police, they've been very helpful, but they are just budapest police. there is no government presence here at all, these are hungarian civilians, they've come out here there, is more food than they could even handle. they've got too much food, they've got some new donations. i ask you several times tonight, there is no one running this operation, these are various groups who are dealing with a combination of transportation, with medical needs somebody here didn't have a euro to buy a train ticket. and somebody walked up out of nowhere with a wallet with train tickets, they said where they're going, they show them on their phone. they walk them where they needed to go. there is a sign over there that says warming bus. if you don't have a place to go, it's cold, designers just come up. but there are buses just to wait on while you get warm. there is hot soup they are giving out people. there's tea, there's hot chocolate, there's food. and none of this makes up for the fact that some of the country is being invaded. but in all of this despair and horrible-ness, there is some strength of the human spirit and warn us of people who are coming out here to help strangers whom they don't know. the languages are not interchangeable, ukrainians do not understand hungarians or vice versa, they're entirely different route languages. but there are people out here who see that this is wrong, and are just trying to help their fellow people. it's not going to stop the war in ukraine, it's not gonna help the people who are displaced on their home. it doesn't matter how nicely hungarians are to them. they still have had to leave their homes, you've seen images of them, the crime, they're desperate, they're sad, they're stunned. but it is worth it to see that there are people who come out and said com