Us on a powerful journey through the south, a trip to listen and learn as we struggle to come to terms with our past. Here now is a special presentation of stone ghosts in the south americas legacy of heritage and hate. In the month after george floyd was killed by minneapolis police, 30 Confederate Monuments were taken down in this country. When Tragedy Strikes now, the monuments fall. Thats what happened in 2017 after Heather Heyer was murdered in charlottesville, virginia, when she was protesting a white supremacist demonstration in charlottesville. 36 Confederate Monuments came down that year. Thats the year trymaine lee began studying our stone ghosts and what they mean to the people who built them and what they mean to the people who have torn them down. Joining us now is trymaine lee, msnbc national correspondent. Trymaine, when did you get interested in, began focusing your reporting on the Confederate Monuments and why . You know, it was long before we took this journey in 2018. I remember living in new orleans and being in lee circle and seeing robert e. Lee hovering above the city, and black folks especially moving in the shadow of these monuments. But then after charlottesville and we saw the violence and Heather Heyers death, and we saw the images of the torchcarrying individuals saying, you know, jews will not replace us and blood and soil. And the violent that seemed so inherent, baked not into the fabric of just america, and i said we have to go down and explore to get a better sense of what this connection really means to the people, not just to those who worship the stone and the brass and the fabric, but those who are deeply, deeply disturbed by them. Trymaine, what did it feel like for you as a black man in america to take yourself into this journey to study how these monuments got there and what they mean . You know, i walk in the footsteps of black journalists like ida b. Wells, who when black folks were being lynched, went into the darkness and shown down a bright light. There were many moments when we went deep into the south, deep into the Rural Communities and engaged with people who, you know, you go into their homes and you see confederate flags. You see things in blackface. They made offhanded jokes in my face. So it was tough at times but i tried to do my best to connect, just to understand. I think we did that. It was uncomfortable at times but certainly, you know, well worth the journey. I think we found some nuance in the wrinkles of humanity, but also a better understanding of just how potent and poignant the hate and the legacy of that heritage truly is. It was a journey that was well worth it as were about to see. Later in this hour in our discussion, well be joined by Caroline Randall williams. She wrote the stunning New York Times oped piece headlined you want a cred monument . My body is a Confederate Monument. Her ancestors were slaves and slave owners. Before we get to that discussion, we begin with what trymaine lee found when he went looking for stone ghosts in the south. In 2017, hundreds of white nationalists descended on charlottesville, virginia, to defend a monument to robert e. Lee. Their arrival marked the beginning of 24 hours of violence. One protester was killed. Others were beaten and bloodied. After the Unlawful Assembly was declared, it was really very festive. It just felt like we won. Thats when we heard this loud bang. [ screaming ] one car got pushed into the intersection. Another car got pushed in right behind it. It was just utter chaos. Its hard to imagine that such a big moment happened in this little space. Yes. But thats common in america. Absolutely. These big moments happen in these little spaces. This is what we learned, all of these small spaces can set the stage for huge explosions. The battle in charlottesville seemed to be over a single statue, and its a battle thats been repeated in cities across the country. But more than 1,500 monuments to the confederacy remain, honoring those who fought and died to keep black americans like my ancestors in bondage. So i decided to travel the south to learn for myself just how deep the roots of this fight are buried. I went looking for understanding, for something that would make sense of this moment. Along the way i visited monuments, those that arent so easily removed, the artifacts, small enough for some to ignore, the landmarks too large to take down, and the legacy that resides in our memory and in our blood because the fight was always about more than just a statue. Beautiful morning in fredericksburg, virginia. I didnt want to take this journey alone, so i asked my friend, a reporter for the New York Times, to join me, to help me process what it all means. Whats going on, man . How are you doing . Good to see you. For years weve talked about race and history, how his people came to america by way of trinidad and mine through the slave trade. It just seemed natural for him to join me. In 2017, the city council of fredericksburg took up the question of whether to remove a slave Auction Block that stands on a corner in the middle of downtown. Were about to see an Auction Block where people were sold. Whats crazy when you look at the old advertisement. Seven strong knee grnegroes for. Were not just talking about labor. Were talking about artists and professionals. Yeah. When my uncle was young, he took a picture on the slave block from a caucasian who wanted had imto tato take a pic. When my grandfather realized he had stood on that block to have his picture taken, my grandfather whipped him and threw the money away. He told him what that block was and why he was never to go on that block again. That story has been with us since we were little children. That citizen not only did we not want you here, but we still dont want you here. The lone black councilman pushed for a vote to remove the Auction Block. The six white members of the council said they voted to keep it in its place to educate future generations. Ive heard you say that fredericksburg may be the most historic city in america . Indeed. Our history is our nations history. If i walk to city hole,all you also walk by an Auction Block, right . I do. What does that mean in terms of the history . At some point you arrive at a place where humans were bought and sold by the people of this community. That auction politic is an artifact. The very fact that you can stand where somebody was treated as property and where families were separated is very moving. Its like what germany did when they kept dachau and auschwitz and all. It was like dont ever forget. You cant ever forget how horrible that was. Councilman chuck frye proposed removing the block. It was going on everywhere. The Auction Block had been on my mind for a long time since i was a kid, you know. I used to see people spit on it. I saw a mock auction where folks did a mock auction. That rips your soul apart. My stance was always, okay, i think it needs to go. It came down to a vote. It was a 61 vote. Do you believe there is a way to do the block in a respectful way and keep it there . I cant change my view. What we can do is tell a story thats a more full, in depth story. When you walk by that and you walk by with with your children and your people, whats the message being sent . Theres a possible your great, greatgrandfather was being sold here. What it represents as a rippling effect that exists in the very fabric. Thats just america. The black barbershop has always been a place of community, where wisdom is passed and stories are traded. Todays no different. So what was it like growing up with that Auction Block right there on the corner . It was like an embarrassment. I dont need to see that block to know what the past was. It made you mad because i could see my great grandma, my great grandpa. You bring them in on a boat and then you sell them. It is totally unfair and unreal that people can actually sit there and say that, oh, well were just saving history. No. What youre doing is youre spitting in our faces. Thats what youre doing. Just across the river from downtown is the chatham plantation where hundreds of slaves toiled for nearly a century. You imagine the conversation that happened here, the idea, the fear of being separated from family, torture, but the flip side is the fear you could be sold at that Auction Block, right . Can you imagine from down there, youre looking up here. Youre seeing this nice big brick house. But youre not thinking that. Thats like the haunted house. When youre an enslaved person, the only thing on the horizon is servitude. Yeah. Or death or to some running away. When the union army arrived here and for the white folks, it sent a chill down our spine, and it was terror. But thousands of black folks fled across this river to join the union army. Yeah. Could you imagine that moment . In fairview, kentucky, the birthplace of Jefferson Davis, the state is wrestling with telling a fuller story around these memorials, including a larger than life monument dedicated to the only president of the confederacy. There it is. Look at that. Yeah, were seeing it. My goodness. That is that is huge. When you think about the conversation and debate, especially over the last year, what role do the monuments and artifacts that cant be torn down as easily as a statue how do they factor into this debate . Were talking about an obelisk thats 351 feet tall. Thats where were really moving into in the past few years is talking about the construction of confederate memory in kentucky, root theed specifically in the site. Start to promote it, start to sell it back not only to the south but the entire nation and retelling the history of the south and the civil war and recognizing this memorial landscape we encounter is not a product of the civil war and its history comes much later. Its history is situated within a story of a jim crow south. During the early 20th century, groups loyal to the confederacy began reporting a revisionist spin on the civil war. The socalled lost cause was about more than memorializing dead confederates. It was about painting the north as an Occupying Force and the south as noble defenders of virtue, all while minimizing the role of slavery. Their influence would fuel generations of southern segregationists and nostalgia for the old south. The united daughters of confederacy were especially prolific, starting in the 1890s, they put up at least 700 memorials to the confederacy. Symbols arent all copper and stone. For decades, theyve connected to the past through civil war reenactments. Jeff stokes has been reliving this history for 25 years. He counts dos of confederate soldiers in his family tree. What are we looking at here . This is a beautiful shot. This is night fire. This is a six pounder, model of 1841. My brother and i built this. We looked it over, and he said, yeah, i can make those. We thought, why not . That was a hot day. When youre out there and youre in your uniform and you see the flags. Mmhmm. Is there a connection to the past . Is that what hinges yeah, there is a connection to the past, uhhuh. If youre interested in history, its ten times better than reading about it in a book. So i guess it gives you greater appreciation of your forebears and the suffering they went through. Does that appreciation dampen at all for you by the fact that they were fighting for the cause, for the states that were proslave . You got to get into the mind of like the 19th century mind or get into the 18th century mind. Its really hard to do. You have to do a lot of reading. The library is full of reading about why people decided that it was worth fighting and dying to own people and sell people. And, again, that was one of the topics at the time. Thats a big topic, though. Its pretty big. Its a big topic. Well, if you didnt own slaves, its not such a big topic. Do you think does that for you factor in at all how we should view these monuments in the present day given theres a lot population of americans who those monuments their sub humanness. So do we squash it . Do we rewrite history . If you dont have some type of proof, in a generation of now youll have people arguing it, and it may just vanish. But considering that for a great number of people in this country, those things represent deep trauma and great violence against people. But havent we got beyond that . How many people have we . How many people live in an America Today for slaves. How many people in America Today own slaves . Its roughly zero, so we should have got beyond that. Myself for example, we dont have our last names. We dont have our religion. This language is not my native language either. But you have a great benefit. Everybody in america has a benefit. Its the greatest country in the wor world. Everybody living in America Today has a great benefit and great opportunity. The people of african descent in this country, the people who are descendants of slaves, what benefit did they get from slavery . Theyre here. Whats amazing is you get such a sense of place. Like this could be anytown usa, but youre kind of surrounded with mementos from the past, including mementos to the confederacy. The ugly underbelly. Theres as Much Division than ever because history means Different Things to different people. There is a lack of consideration of how this might make us as americans, black americans feel. There seems to be this lock on the idea that we cant do it with history. Not history. When we come back after this break, trymaine lees conversation with a descendant of the president of the confederacy, Jefferson Davis. That is a surprising conversation. And after that, we will follow trymaine lees journey through the south. We will then be joined by a southern woman, Caroline Randall williams, who says her black southern ancestors include people who were slaves, and her white southern ancestors include people who owned those slaves and raped those slaves. In a New York Times essay, she wrote, i defy any sentimental southerner to defend our ancestors to me. I am quite literally made of the reasons to strip them of their laurels. Thats coming up when our last word special stone ghosts in the south continues right after this break. Most awarded network, the one with unbeatable reliability 13 times in a row. 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We reached out to the great, great grandson of Jefferson Davis. Hes trying to reclaim his familys legacy from those who see davis as a hero of White Supremacy. The night before our meeting, we slept in the vikzburg home of joseph davis, jeffersons brother and mentor. You say youre a davis descendant in mississippi, you better be ready. It brings responsibility. People are assuming youre going to be a davis. Somebody asked me why i dont dress up like him. He still holds on to artifacts from his greatgreatgrandfather, a book he signed, a letter he sent, a chair he sat in. Is there more resonance with something that you own than something in a Public Square somewhere . To me, yes, absolutely because its handed down. This chair has reference to me. A Confederate Monument or a statue, when those folks put that up, had reference to them. How do you balance or reconcile with the dual narratives of Jefferson Davis . One that weve all heard is the first and only president of the confederacy. On the other hand, there are 52 years of his life before the civil war. I dont know if i reconcile them as much as i try to bring them together to have a complete understanding. When we put that four years of his life, which is 5 in total perspective, is it what it is we want to remember, or do we want to have a complete understanding of the entire 81 years of his life. That four years a pretty big four years, right . A pretty big four years because it was the most dramatic part of American History in a lot of respects. But he led that country as a position he was appointed to, not one that he wanted. If were dealing in the facts, he supported the expansion of slavery even before the civil war and before he became president of the confederacy. He did believe that black people are inferior to white people. In your mind, does that tarnish his legacy at all . What bothers me the most is exactly what you just said. The statements he made in reference to the slaves were his own feeling about their status, and i cannot say that i support that. But, again, its the lens of perspective of the time and the place that he lived in. It is not the most favorable aspect, but it is part of his character that we have to understand. I have to wonder are you welcomed in those groups that are so staunchly proconfederate that they dont want to see anything happen to any statues . Are you welcome in those spaces . The proconfederate folks, i would say that im probably not. Before leaving town, we hear theres one more stop we should make if we really want to understand what keeps so many southern whites rooted to the confederacy. First would you mind saying and spelling your first and last name for us. Gordon, ggordon, my las name cotton, cottottocot like you pick. There we go. All this fuss over the confederate statues and the flag and slavery, is it time for us to move forward . No if were going to move forward on this and were going to leave Everything Else out in our history . What about this idea, though, that these men were fighting to maintain the system of slavery . That wasnt all they were fighting for. They were fighting because our homes were invaded. The whole thing was based on money. Most things are. Going back to what happened in charlottesville. Someone was killed, someone was shot at, someone else was beaten up. Does it surprise you when you see some are that virulent about their defense of robert e. Lee and the rest . Well, theyre not the ones who started it. Defending it, yes, i can understand that. But theyre not the ones who started it. Had the people not wanted to tear down a beautiful monument, it wouldnt have happened. Perhaps they should be moved to somewhere where they can be respected, not in a place of in a public display where its doing nothing but sending a certain kind of message. I totally disagree with you. If it happened right here, we commemorate it here. What do you think of Jefferson Davis . He is my personal hero. I think hes one of the great men in American History. What about he was obviously someone who supported the expansion of slavery . Should that diminish or tarnish his legacy at all . No because he want the only one. I think growing up in this community, going to a school named Jefferson Davis, they can destroy what they can, but theyll never destroy the legend of the man. How much do you give to the idea that these are men of their team . What does that mean . Certainly they were men of their time, but exactly as they said, do we forgive that . Having these conversations with people who are able somehow to separate advocating for slavery and then say, but they were great guys who had a lot of accomplishments. Yeah. Thats hard to square. Can you imagine this filled with people and tear gas, police on horseback . This is still a history. Alabama is like such a crucial role. Some of the most periods of violence but also civil rights progress. And so this place here plays like a dual role. Its significant on one side of history because of Edmund Pettus who was famed as a confederate soldier and leader and grand dragon, but also we associate the Edmund Pettus bridge with the fight for black rights. This whole trip weve heard people talking about history, you cant lose history. This is one of those cases where i think if someone says that, it kind of makes sense to me a little bit. I dont know. In this old section of the cemetery, many notable citizens of selma were laid to rest such as general william hart, senator edmund winston pettus. Theres that guy again, Jefferson Davis. Right here, grand master of the klan. This monument was dedicated october 7, 2000. Listen to the way they describe this man. This monument stands as a testament of our perpetual devotion and respect. One of the souths finest heroes. When you look here, they were judged by their they had hon their skill, their price, their complexion. The united daughters of the confederacy. They were a very active group. Look at this. The knightleyest of the knightley race who sing of the day of old. Im assuming a deathless song of southern schihiv alary, standinp for their way of life and their people, their homes, their farms, their children. Theres no tearing this thing down. This will loom here. This isnt some little town square. This is the statehouse of alabama. This is the capitol. Some memorials are easier to find than others. 20 miles from the capitol, a black stands on the side of the highway. It marks the spot where elmore bowman was lynched and his body left in a ditch. Just 100 yards from where his 5yearold daughter josephine waited for him to come home. When youre black in alabama, you cant help but walk in the shadows of these huge Confederate Monuments. But do you see a connection between the message being sent about White Supremacy and what happened to your father . Oh, very much so. One of the articles that described my fathers death says enraged whites jealous about the success of a black man. If you acquire more than they think you should, they got to put you back in your place. Enraged. Enraged. Josephine told us she paid for her fathers marker herself after the state refused to allow her to place it on public land. When you think about what you missed in life from not having him. My mom went from prosperity to poverty almost overnight. Sometimes ive wondered what my life could have been had he liv lived, what my life could have been. Elmore bollings name was included among the thousands of lynching victims at the National Memorial for peace and justice. The memorials director, brian stephenson, hopes the collected names will help change the narrative of a country still grappling with how to tell its own story. When i moved to montgomery, this was a city that had 59 markers and monuments to the confederacy, and you couldnt find the word slave or slavery anywhere. How was that even possible . Its because people had been very intentional about denying that part of our history. So this memorial, this site, is intended to be a very intentional response to our silence. We talk to folks around the cub about what the confederacy stood for and the monuments. They say black people owned slaves too. There were white slaves. These are all things that are designed to deracialize what happened, and they are aberrations. And weve allowed that to happen because we were fighting these other struggles, right . And so this site is designed to help people understand that you cant ignore this any longer. So you see one county with one name, and then one county with two names. Then you see a county like this with over a dozen names. Do you have any dodge county, georgia . Yeah, we do. My great grafrd, they were tenant farmers in dodge county. He sent his son cornelius into town, shot him, put him on a horse, sent him back. We have the death certificate. It says age 12, cause of death, gunshot wounds. People who engaged in these terror lynchings could have buries the bodies in the ground, could have tried to hide this violence, which is what you would have imagined people would do. They did the opposite. They were actually proud to engage in this kind of racial terror. Thats why hanging was so common. The whole idea was to taunt and to terrorize and to torment africanamericans. Thats why you have to think about this as terrorism. There are thousands who get killed, but there are millions who are victimized. You know, seven black people lynched in streamer, alabama, in 1888, for drinking from a white mans well. Dozens in louisiana because they were protesting their low wages. Am i crazy for when i read these things, im scared because sometimes i feel like this could have been last week. Oh, it could have been. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. It just weighs on you. The idea theres so many more because i know from my family store what happened. Of course. And hes not here. Of course. Theres so much more. Some say these monuments about heritage and heroes. But if anything, theyre also reminders of americas unsettled war with itself. I started this journey looking for light and understanding to examine what these monuments mean to those who honor them. But it was never really about the monuments. The large, looming stone facades or the grotesque stumbling blocks. What lives inside the man whose grip on history has been shaped by the myths they hold as truths. If anything, it was about a reckoning in a time of american terror. Im not sure where we go from here, but the road through history is long and winding with markers along the way. Trymaine lee will be back with us after this break and well be joined in conversation by Caroline Randall williams, who wrote in a powerful New York Times piece, quote, the black people i come from were owned and raped by the white people i come from. Who dares to tell me to celebrate them . Caroline Randall Williams and trymaine lee will discuss the stone ghosts in the south next. Yes it is. Jim, could you uh kick the tires . Oh yes. Can you change the color inside the car . Oh sure. How about blue . Thats more cyan but. Jump in the back seat, jim. Act like my kids. How much longer . Exactly how they sound. Its got massaging seats too, right . Oh yeahhhhh. Oh yeahhhhh. Visit the mercedesbenz summer event or shop online at participating dealers. Get 0 apr financing up to 36 months on select new and certified preowned models. Sixtytwo thousand seven hundred and ten dollars and thirtyone cents. Sofi allowed me to refinance all of my loans to one low Interest Rate and an affordable monthly payment. And i just feel like theres an end in sight now and that my debt doesnt define me anymore. Sofi is helping me get my money right. Did you know Liberty Mutual customizes your Car Insurance tada sofi is helping me get my money right. So you only pay for what you need . Given my unique lifestyle, thatd be perfect let me grab a pen and some paper. Know what . Im gonna switch now. Just need my desk. My chair. And my phone. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Well the names have all changed since you hung around but those dreams have remained and theyve turned around whod have thought theyd lead ya back here where we need ya welcome back, america. It sure is good to see you. Maria had to do everything for me. [maria] she had these awful blisters on her back. I dont want shingles when im your age. [camera man] actually, if youre 50 or older, youre at increased risk. [maria] thats life, nothing you can do. [camera man] uh, shingles can be prevented. [maria theresa] shingles can be whaaaat . [camera man] prevented. You can get vaccinated. [maria] where . [camera man] at your pharmacy, at your doctors. [maria] hold on [maria] dont want to go through that [theresa] hija. [camera man] talk to your doctor or pharmacist about getting vaccinated. [camera man] talk to your doctor or pharmacist this virus is testing all of us. And its testing the people on the front lines of this fight most of all. So abbott is getting new tests into their hands, delivering the critical results they need. And until this fight is over, we. Will. Never. Quit. Because they never quit. Hello. Im dara brown. Heres whats happening. Commerce secretary wilbur ross is in the hospital suffering from a minor issue that is not coronavirus related. Ross, who is the oldest member of trumps cabinet, is expected to be released soon according to a commerce spokesperson. Meanwhile, the ongoing pandemic continues to grow with more than 3. 7 million confirmed cases of the coronavirus. Nearly 141,000 people have died in the u. S. From the virus. Arizona will soon start blitz testing that lasts 12 days as infections surge in the state. As many as 5,000 tests will be conducted daily at two sites, serving around 60,000 residents. And following the death of civil rights icon congressman john lewis, renewed calls to rename a selma, alabama, bridge after him. Lewis was one of several Peaceful Protesters who suffered serious injuries on the bridge in 1965 in what became known as bloody sunday. The petition to rename the bridge has over 400,000 signatures. Now back to the last word with lawrence odonnell. When youre out there and youre in your uniform and you see the flags, is there a connection to the past . Is that what hinges into this . Yeah, there is a connection to the past, uhhuh. If youre interested in history, its ten times better than reading about it in a book. So i guess it gives you a greater appreciation of your forebears and the suffering they went through. Do you see a connection between the message being sent about White Supremacy and what happened to your father . Oh, very much so. One of the articles that described my fathers death says enraged whites jealous about the success of a black man. If you acquire more than they think you should, they got to put you back in your place. Youve been watching trymaine lees riveting documentary produced with nbc news features, stone ghosts in the south. Trymaine lee is back with us, and joining our discussion now is Caroline Randall williams, writer in residence at vanderbilt university. She wrote the highly acclaimed opinion piece for the New York Times entitled you want a Confederate Monument . My body is a Confederate Monument. Trymaine, let me start with you. What was the most painful thing you saw in your journey through these monuments . Lawrence, there were a number. Certainly in montgomery, you know, being at that memorial for those who had been wlinlynched, almost 4,000 people linked, and to see the names of people who came from the county where my great grandparents live and where my great uncle was killed, but certainly walking on those plantation grounds, so beautiful, about you that belies the great violence. These are hallowed grounds, forced labor camps really. To talk to men who, you know, believe and love the mythology of what we say america was and what they say the confederacy was. But it was violence and pillage and raping, and to look me in my eyes and with an air of something ethereal, speak of the past in such glorious ways knowing that my people struggled to survive, were brutally murdered, and worked to build what america is today. I think that was the most painful, this charade, this veil. The lies that these men tell themselves and pass on to their children not just in the huge obelisk but in the reenactment, in the passing down of that legacy. It was really tough, but i think every step along the way there were moments of great pain. Caroline, what were you thinking and feeling as you were watching trymaines journey tonight . I was thinking about that line the guy said where he said that you have to get into 19th century mind, into an 18th century mind. And what was implicit in what he said was a white 19th century mind, a white 18th century mind because if he had been able to get into a black american 19th century mind, he would not be able to engage in that exercise and look a black man in his house, in his face, and try to justify the reenactments that hes undertaken. Thats what i was thinking. But on that point, caroline, there were white 19th century minds who were completely opposed to slavery, including relatives of robert e. Lee himself living in the south, who were opposed to slavery and were opposed to the war that he was fighting. Well, right. So its actually, again, this implicit fetishization of a slaveholding, slaverycelebrating mentality. And im also thinking about the guy, mr. Cotton, like the socks you dont have to say like you pick, but anyway like you pick. I was thinking about what he said. I was thinking about what he said, and i was thinking, you know, he said its about money. But then he stops there. He doesnt say, well, what was the primary source of southern american money, right . He doesnt examine it to its root to acknowledge that what he is celebrating when he celebrates the cause, what he is arguing when he argues that it was economic, hes still arguing on behalf of slavery. Trymaine, speaking to Jefferson Davis greatgreat grandson, was that a surprising conversation for you . It was pretty surprising because youd have to imagine how revered Jefferson Davis still is in those spaces. You think about guys like mr. Cotton and our reenactor. They revere this man. Hes a hero. So a descendant of Jefferson Davis wants to separate himself in some way from that legacy was very interesting. But it wasnt a fullthroated, you know, dismissal of everything he believed in. This was a softer, gentler kind of embrace of his relative ands a ancestor. So he still loves and honors this man. He had more nuance than some of the others, but he wasnt necessarily distancing himself because he still his whole thing was there was all this time before. He was a great man who had a short period that did a bad thing as opposed to an entire life building up to this moment where he boldly proclaimed himself the president of this nation that had the right by all means necessary to own people, to sell people, to do what they will. I think what caroline said earlier and as you mentioned, lawrence, this idea of men of their times, there were men of their times who also were fighting this as abolitionists. So the contradictions but also the mythtelling, misremembering, miseducation of history. The mythology surrounding this. Go back to mr. Cotton, like you pick. Hes a pillar in this community. We went to three or four different places and they said you got to find mr. Cotton. We go deep in the woods where the cell phones dont work. Lets us in. We have the a bunch of cds of people in blackface. You have the confederate flag, you have that pickaninny. He kind of laughed and showed it to me and chuckled. This is a pillar in this community. What lives inside these men that they pass on is almost as troubling. Caroline, you grew up in the south. You live in the south now. What is it that most people miss when they look at this . Im sure as someone who is a southerner yourself, especially people like me from the north as we look at these things, is there kind of a constant reframing you want to do for us . Of course there is, lawrence. When i think about mr. Cotton, when i think about the other gentleman who is doing this reenacting, i think that what we have to remember is that these men have preserved this ideology so so successfully because they turn our idea of theyre saying, youre going to erase our history. And what theyre saying actually is, youre trying to revise, edit, and factcheck a history that we already approved and that our ancestors wrote. And theyre not actually allowing for the proper editorial process of how something successful gets written to be undertaken. They want to have us accept their narrative wholesale, and its been accepted wholesale up to this point. And i think that its now time for us all to be responsible documentarians of the actual bones of their narrative. Caroline, one of the comments i was struck by early in t trymai trymaines documentary was the woman who compares the south treats this history to the way germany treats their nazi history. Th thats a point you made on this show in your first appearance. Yeah. That line struck me dumb, the first time i watched this documentary. Because that Auction Block is just sitting, without any context, in the middle of a cheerful square. Last i checked, auschwitz, the camps that have become museums to honor the people who were murdered there. The genocide that was undertaken there. To demand reproach for the soldiers who committed those atrocities. Those places have been put into context. They are solemn and they are rigorous in discussing the horrors. Thats just a little, cheerful block, in the middle of a little, cheerful, southern, quaint street. And she just says isnt that lovely that you can touch history . You can see where somebody might have been sold. But theres no demanding of context, and there is no demanding of context because she knows, and wul kn we all know, was left to here to intimidate. To shame. To hair row. Right . Its not the same at all. Trymaine, what did it feel like to be there, looking at that Auction Block . And then, of course, knowing that maybe something was going to happen. That community was moving toward, maybe, something happening with that and it finally did. You know, to see that block sitting there. And as caroline mentioned, its in kind of a busy district, where people were literally hanging out, drinking wine, eating food. Like like, there wasnt an Auction Block where bodies were not only sold but bodies broken and families torn apart. Also, there had been some progress made and i believe that block, it will be removed now. Theres some more recent developments. But the idea that it was still split along racial lines. That even the white whofolks on that council would say theyre trying to preserve history. It still broke along racial lines. The lone black city councilman pleading with people to understand what that meant to this community. And talking to folks, you know, black folks who grew up in this community, who said we wouldnt even go down that block, it was so disturbing. You heard the one woman say her uncle was whipped for getting on that block saying, dont you dare sit on that block. And while we were even there, people were taking pictures around it. Teenagers playing hopscotch around it. It was so disturbing. But it speaks to just how baked into the fabric of america, and who we are, literally, baked into the ground and in our minds, our mythology. And all the allure. How baked in the notion is that we would have an taauction bloc in the mi in the middle of the district. Not a plaque around it. Just the block. Caroline, it seems the nostalgia campaign, which has been waged for decades upon decades upon decades, to turn history into nostalgia is what was necessary, in order to have an Auction Block left out there. As you say, without any context, whatsoever. Yeah. I think this question of how southern nostalgia functions is one of the things that troubles me the most, and that i am so eager to, you know, really reexamine and push into new into a new frame of understanding in the future. And i really was struck by the descendent of Jefferson Davis, in that regard. Because, you know, he sort of tries to put into context, say its only four years of his life. But, you know, i know people. There are people who have lived beautiful lives, and then get drunk one night and kill a family in a car crash. And then, they have to pay for that sin. They have to go to jail. They have to answer the family of the people they killed. And i think that this idea of forgiveness. Thats between you and the lord, as we say in the south. Or as churchgoing folks. That forgiveness is between you and god. In the United States of america, when you commit grave crimes against humanity, regardless of what you did the rest of your life, we have to discuss how you pay for that. Trymaine, did you sense any changing of minds during your conversations . Sometimes, i felt like again, i tried to walk in superunderstanding. I wanted folks to put their guard down, which they did. Again, we didnt plan any of those interviews that were out in the woods with our reenactor or mr. Cotton. We just kind of showed up. Went around town talking to folks. And after i was trying to work them a little bit, i got a sense that there was, sometimes, some understanding. But it was so hardwired. Their beliefs were so hardwired, there wasnt much room to budge, even with the niceties of the south. Even allowing us to come on and smile with us and have a conversation, there wasnt much budging. Caroline randal williams, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight. Trymaine lee, thank you for sharing our discussion and bringing your documentary to us tonight. We really appreciate this hour. Its been very important for us. Thank you, trymaine. That is tonights special edition of the last word. Spel edition of the last word. Weve always put safety first. And we always will. For people. For the future. And there has never been a summer when its mattered more. Wherever you go, summer safely. Get zero percent apr financing for up to five years on select models and exclusive lease offers. vo you start with americas verizmost awarded network, to build unlimited right. The one with unbeatable reliability 13 times in a row. This network is one less thing i have to worry about. vo then you give people more plans to mix and match so you only pay for what you need verizon unlimited plan is so reasonable, they can stay on for the rest of their lives. 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The niece of the current president of the United States. What is it . The president s 54th National Security adviser, sought to publish his book about his time in the trump white house. You may recall, there were lots of threats from the white house, and from the president , personally, there was a concerted legal effort. Including, an effort we the u. S. Department of justice, to try to stop john bolton from publishing that book. Thats the kind of thing this this attorney general, bill barr, is happy to do for this president
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