Transcripts For MSNBCW NOW With Alex Wagner 20140819

Shooting. At the press conference hours ago, local police described the incident. What we know right now, we have a suspect who was involved in a threat, armed with a knife. Police officers responded, when they responded, the suspect did not summoned to verbal commands to drop his weapon. He approached both officers and then when he closed within three to four feet of the knife in an overhand grip, the officers fired their weapon. Theres no indication at this point that this shooting is related to demonstrations in ferguson where the streets today were filled yet again as residents volunteers and protesters cleaned up from the chaos of last night. It was a evening when molotov cocktails and gas filled bottles, lobbed at police and tear gas thrown at demonstrators. Police arrested 78 people, including four journalists. Those of those arrested have been charged with refusal to disburse. Two with unlawful use of a weapon and another charged with interfering with an officer. A majority of those arrested are from missouri, but about a dozen are from out of state, new york, chicago, and california. New york, illinois and california. According to the Washington Post, the faction of violent protesters are known in ferguson as the militants. After a small group of them looted a store, one told the Washington Post, were jobless american and this is our job now, getting justice. If that that means violence, thats okay by me. Theyve been doing this for years. Missouri Highway Patrol captain ron johnson indicted members of the media for glamerrizing the violence. The journalists have been on our side and partners and reporting. We have a lot of media that have not done a great job. Last night when crowds were walking and small groups and got large and they were just walking, and then when a certain element, that criminal element that got out here with masks on, wanted to aage tate and build u the crowd, the media would swarm around them, give them a platform and glamourize their activity. The crowd was stopped and before we know that the crowd is 100, 200, 300. Now those criminals began to start throwing things out of the crowd that were standing within the media. As for tonight, the city of ferguson asked its residents to remain at home. Joining me now from ferguson is host of msnbcs all in, chris hayes. Chris, lets talk about the most recent development, this latest shoeing and what has done to the tension on ground. We arrived here probably about an hour after the shooting happened here at riverview and mcclairen, a neighborhood in st. Louis city, in the city boundary, two and a half miles from ferguson, right over the border from st. Louis county. Right immediately, probably 100 or 200 from the neighborhood who con greg gated on the streets, people asking why didnt they tase him. The police chief of the st. Louis City Metro Police gave the Police Conference and did something that was quite smart in the moment, which is that he waded into the crowd outside the gas station behind me, right into the crowd and took some questions from them. By his sild wassed alderman who doesnt precisely represent this neighborhood and tony french was out there and said i owe it to you to tell you what i know. People are yelling, why couldnt you tase him, shoot him in the leg . As far as i can tell people here are not computdisputing the acte ni knife but very frustrated this young man dimed at the hands of police. They say its on you for no silliness around here because you have people that have your back here, unlike folks in the ferguson are on their own. What he means by that, there is frankly an africanamerican political structure here in north st. Louis. There are local representatives who he was trying to say can represent your interest in a way that maybe isnt the case in ferguson. Were just two and a half miles from ferguson. This whole area from north st. Louis into north st. Louis county is theres not like some border fence. Its just a series of neighborhoods next to each other. Thats really surprising that you would have a local official publicly calling out the nearby two and a half mile away police force as inadequate and not representing the community. I would imagine thats going to create tension between the Neighboring Police units. Well, yes, sorry to be clear, that was not the police chief it was Alderman Antonio french, the police chief would never Say Something like that. To be clear, an important clarification, but he was he said this at the Police Presser . He was next to the police and it was after police said said this to group, to urge calm and tell them they had channels to vent their frustration. The thing youve got to realize, this whole area is the tension is so thick. We have 200 people on the street here. People talk a lot about ive seen the last few days, media is driving this or not. People are showing up after someone gets shot on the street, whether theres cameras here or not and one person a number said to me, sam dotson is the happiest man in the world that all of the focus is on ferguson and not the city of st. Louis. You can walk the two and a half miles here and hear residents complaining about the st. Louis police in language similar to the way they complain about ferguson. This is a breaking news situation, if you dont know the answer, i want to ask. Theres some discrepancy whether or not the suspect, the guy killed hours ago, said to police, go ahead and shoot me, shoot me sort of invited the police to kill him. Ive heard that rumors that bystanders are saying thats not what he said. Is there any further clarification on that . I cant offer further clarification. One of the things that happens in a scene like this, the ratio of actual eyewitnesses to people who tells you what happened grows enormous. A lot of people came afterwards and there were rumors circulating but i didnt talk to eyewitnesses and cant conform one way or the other. Let me ask you something about last night, rocks were thrown at you. Theres a discussion now about the militants and militant element and who actually they represent. Have you seen there seems to be a more public shift in terms of isolating these folks, alderman french who you mentioned has been publicly on twitter saying these folks are not from the community, dont represent the community. Have you can you report anything more about who the folks maybe and how the last 24 hours changed the sort of dividing lines between the insiders and outsiders . I mean, thats been something people said a lot of. Part of the problem ive got to say from a reporting standpoint, in the context in which this is happening, its impossible to run up to people and say, where are you from . All of this is happening in the threats of midst of tear gas and mill tearized zone. You can see elements in the crowd that are amped up and looking to start stuff. Theres definitely the case that last night on air 200 feet from where i was live broadcasting, there was a shooting, six gunshots that went off during the broadcast. Thats in the midst of everything. Theres people with guns running around and the six gunshots were not squeezed off by police, but by protesters, looked like it was toughly a beef between two different folks on the scene. Point being, there is some element of violence. There are there have been shots fired off by people. In terms of what those who those folks are or if they are coherent in any way or if its an organized group or outsiders or insiders, i cant firsthand say what what the facts are because its so difficult to report in the moment. I saw the Washington Post report you referenced which was interesting. The other thing i would say, just lets separate the fact there is a small group of people that are bent on incitement and may hem and setting things on fire and looting. From whatever assertions are about who they are. Im not convinced that anyone has necessarily the full intel on who these people are. Its an extremely fluid situation and under these fluid dynamics, a small amount of actors can have huge consequences. The number of these people and how organized they are, all of that is unclear. There are a small group of folks bent on escalating and organized and showing up under the cover of dark. Who they are and what motives are remains unclear to me. Youre doing important and great reporting down there. Thank you for taking the time out of what i know is a busy day. Host of all in chris hayes take care out there. I want to go to staff writer for slate, jamal bowie. The situation in ferguson seems to be getting worse. I want to talk first about the racial dynamics that are at play nationally. Theres a pugh poll out today that is staggering in terms of the division between blacks and whites on subject of ferguson. When polls about whether it raises important questions about raise, 8 80 of blacks say it ds and 30 of whites say it does. 65 of blacks say it has, 32 of whites say it has. Are you surprised by those numbers . Not at all. One of the truisms or things that ought to be truisms about Race Relations in the United States is that everything is about housing segregation, and white americans tend to live around other white americans which means they have different spashl experience of the police, aside from broader issues of police treatment. If youre living in a mostly black neighborhood and especially a low income black neighborhood, theres a very good chance that your daily interactions will involve some sort of contact with the police, in a way that is not true of most White Communities in most low income White Communities. And so when it comes to these National Flash points of police violence, of racial profiling, those experiences inform how people interpret them. If youre living in a mostly black area and police are there all the time and by definition youre going to have more negative interaction with the police, youre going to see Something Like this indicative of experiences. If youre living in a suburb somewhere that police either come when you call them and go when you leave, youre not going to have that same experience and may look at Something Like this. I wonder to that end, then what is is this not a searing indictment of our countrys since the civil rights era. It can be divided along racial lines would seem to suggest we made very little progress at all . I think it is an indictment. I think its an indictment and sort of an illustration of all of the many ways in which we havent made as much progress as we like to think. In all kinds of public life and certainly in elite spheres theres been a lot of integration and many schools theres been quite of bit of integration, though its been back sliding over the past decade. In housing so many areas related to housing, america is very segregated. Because its still very segregated, there are stark divides in how people understand and see the world to say nothing of the material divides and inequality and inequities that exist when you have people that are segregated from mainstream opportunities. I apologize for the brevity of the segment, but it is as weve all acknowledged at this point a breaking news day, in terms of that, benjamin wall less wells proposes in the new York Magazine that american lefts post occupy preoccupation is increasingly moving towards less of a focus on economic inequality and more at the sort of undergirting of all of that which is race. Do you think that will become the new focus of the left in the coming years . I hope so. Im not sure that i see the left focusing on racial inequality as much as economic inequality. One of the refrains i hear a lot of time, its all about class, not race. When the fact of the matter is that class and race are different dimensions of disadvantage and heavily tied togts even still. Going forward i do hope that the left, liberals and democrats begin to understand that rectifying racial inequality looking for ways to break existing patterns of racial inequality will go along way towards solving broader economic inequality and b, absolutely necessary if you want anything approaching an equitiable society. Thanks for hanging with me. After the break, more on the investigation and controversy over the man tasked with prosecuting the case when former federal prosecutor paul butler and ari mel diagnober join me n. This is charlie. His long day of doing it himself starts with back pain. And a choice. Take 4 advil in a day or just 2 aleve for all day relief. Honey, you did it baby laughs the arrest or charges being filed against officer wilson, is that what its going to take . Yes, him being arrested and charges being filed and prosecution. Him being held accountable for what he did. That is not just the opinion of Michael Browns mother. Many in the Ferguson Community have said that calm will not return until charges are filed against the officer accused of the fatal shooting. While a federal grand jury is set to begin hearing evidence tomorrow, it will be weeks before the 12member jury reaches a decision on whether criminal charges should be filed against sixyear Police Department vet darren wilson. According to the st. Louis county prosecutors office, those charges could range from first degree murder to involuntary manslaughter. Or there could be no charges filed at all. Against that back drop, community and elected officials are calling on st. Louis county prosecutor Bob Mccullough to recuse himself because of his Close Association with the Police Department. He is not budging. People of this county have i think placed their trust in me and theyve done that for a reason. Thats because ive been as fair and impartial and done as thorough a job as we could. Theres always going to be some criticism out there. But im a big kid. Ive got broad shoulders, i can take it. Tomorrow attorney general eric holder will travel to ferguson. That investigation also is not expected to be completed for several months. Joining me now is ari melber and professor of law at Georgetown University and former federal prosecutor, paul butler. Professor butler, let me start with you first. In terms of Bob Mccullough, debate whether he should take himself off the case. Whats your opinion . Its not only about justice but the appearance of justice. The question is, whether this is a man who we think we fair and objective. Look at the facts. The people in the family who work for the Police Department, include his mother, his father, his uncle a. His brother and his cousin. He was critical of the decision to remove the local ferguson Police Department from their botched investigation of the homicide. So is he a person who the Africanamerican Community, even the Wider Community can have full faith and confidence . I dont think so. Ari, i think a lot of folks dont understand how integ ral the police tends to be in terms of a prosecutors investigation. There is no investigation without the cooperation of the Police Department. So as angela davis points out in the new republic theres an inher ent conflict of interest, even setting aside his family history. But more generally, what do das do, prosecutors actually do . They take evidence supplied by the local police and they pursue those cases. The cops are their witnesses on the side of those prosecutions and sex s and successful prosecutors are relying on cops at every stage from finding the cases and providing the evidence and making the arrest, do the actual physical enforcement, what we kau Law Enforcement to then showing up at the trial and providing key witness testimony, the evidence, right . That is why to turn around and do something that can be perceived as an tag niesing cops can be a very difficult position. Having said that, departments that work well understand that cops who break the law arent the kind of cops you want to be defending. Professor butler, lets talk about cops that break the law. We have news that the federal autopsy, which was ordered later than initial Police Autopsy, the federal autopsy is ready and private autopsy has been release and yesterday the initial Police Autopsy which by many accounts will be the most comprehensive has not been released. How uncommon is this in your understanding of the law . In a way we dont know. Frankly theres not a lot of transparency with local Law Enforcement. Police officers and prosecutors often do their job behind closed doors and dont feel any compulsion to explain why its taking so long. You know, prosecutors especially are the most unregulated actors in our criminal justice system. The decision whether to charge is completely theirs, cant be overturned by the governor, even the president. The Supreme Court doesnt have the authority to review the charging decision. So again, there really has to be confidence that this is a person whos going to provide the equal protection of law to the citizens of ferguson. Ari, even if the grand jury puts forth charges for darren wilson, theres a huge question about the jury composition. This jury will come from it will be a st. Louis county case and not have a jury from ferguson, which means the representation racially and this is a racially loaded case, would be about 15 to 20 africanamerican according to st. Louis public radio. This there is no shortage of controversy along each step of this investigation. Thats certainly the case, although we also have to let that process play out. If theres a criticism of grand juries generally and systemically it is as everyone was talking about in a different political context, that they will indict on very scant charges, grand juries when presented with evidence tend to move forward and they have a lower standard because this should get its day in court. Its not an add sers varial proceeding, they are held only from the prosecutorial side, let me prove it in a real public trial setting. Generally thats the case. If there are issues here, they may come more in what is presented to that grand jury, necessarily than whether it decides to move forward. We also dont know all of the facts. There may be exculp pa tri information that comes out. People have to be careful. You can have a feeling where you think this is heading and definitely see errors and questionable conduct in the Police Approach to the investigation. The selective release of this videotape on friday, for an incident that was not even by the polices estimation related to the shooting is highly questionable. Having said that, if a video came out from some new source that showed a very different string of events in the conduct between the oir and victim here, you might draw a very different conclusion. At the end of the process if it works and i real list thats what everyone is advocating for, we should have much more information about the facts than we do now. Let me ask you about the eric holders parallel investigation, the federal investigation. Thats likely going to focus on Michael Browns Fourth Amendment rights. How do you see that proceeding in tandem with the other investigation . Its a Second Opportunity for justice if the prosecutor doesnt come through. As a former prosecutor ill go further than ari and say if theres no prosecution, no indictment, than no one will have any confidence in the system because people simply wont believe the prosecutor really went for it. A grand jury will do whatever a prosecutor tells it to do. We do need the attorney general to step in. But hes got a more limited set of tools. He can only bring a case if theres federal civil rights violations, which would mean they have to prove one of reasons the police went after mr. Brown was because of his race. A simple homicide prosecution is much more straight forward. That would be the preferred route for everyone. And the professor makes an important point, people say, two investigations, two Different Things . No, the police are dealing with local stuff, was there misconduct and Violent Crime . And feds are looking under a statute about deprivation of rights under color of law, basically a civil rights violation. It is a different crime. It can be coextensive, about the same conduct. But those are two different tracks. The federal one, which is where a lot of folks think there is more trust given the attorney generals record on civil rights. Thats a fair factual statement. The feds have not been accused of improper selective evidence release or anything but the federal standard is higher, tougher. It will be interesting to see both investigations play out given the different pro tag in any events nist in each. This is dramatic video of an ongoing rescue operation after flash flooding overtook an area north of the city. As you can see the fast moving water blow, rescuers are trying to reach people trapped in a nearby home. Flash flood warnings remain in effect after the suburbs were inundated. Some areas are getting nearly six inches of rain. A years worth in a single day. 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With whole wheat goodness on one side and a hint of sweetness on the other, its a delicious way to get the nutrition you want. That, my friends, is everything. And with the quicksilver card from capital one, you earn unlimited 1. 5 cash back on everything you purchase. Not just everything at the hardware store. Not everything, until you hit your cash back limit. Quicksilver can earn you unlimited 1. 5 cash back on everything you could possibly imagine. Say it with me everything. One more time, everything and with that in mind. Whats in your wallet . After nine days of peace another ceasefire has been broken. Within the last hour we have reports of numerous rockets reigning down on tel aviv and other areas in southern is ral after three rockets were fired into israel this morning bringing an end to a ceasefire which lasted nine days. Minutes after the rockets, the Israeli Military announced it will retaliate. We have begun striking terror targets in the gaza strip. The ap is the reporting eight people have been killed in israeli air strikes, these clashes come hours after israeli and palestinian officials agreed to extend the fiveday ceasefire for another 24 hours. Amid hopes they could broker a longer term agreement. This afternoon both the israeli and palestinian delegations were called their negotiators from cairo. The latest return to violence makes an already elusive deal even more unlikely. Thus far the conflict killed 64 Israeli Soldiers and three israeli civilian, 2016 palestinians have lost their lives and over 10,000 have been wounded. Just ahead, a deadly shooting creates new tensions in missouri. The latest when craig melvin and state senator join me coming up next. son oh no. Can you fix it, dad . Yeah, i can fix that. dad i wanted a car that could handle anything. I fixed it dad thats why i got a subaru legacy. vo symmetrical allwheel drive plus 36 mpg. I gotta break more toys. vo introducing the allnew subaru legacy. Its not just a sedan. Its a subaru. Thats keeping you from the healthcare you deserve. At humana, we believe the gap will close when healthcare gets simpler. When frustration and paperwork decrease. When grandparents get to live at home instead of in a home. So lets do it. Lets simplify healthcare. Lets close the gap between people and care. So factors like diet can negatively impact good bacteria . Even if youre healthy and active. Phillips Digestive Health support is a duoprobiotic that helps supplement good bacteria found in two parts of your digestive tract. Im doubly impressed phillips Digestive Health. A daily probiotic. We continue to following breaking news out of st. Louis jury. Just before 1 00 p. M. , a 23yearold in north st. Louis, approximately four miles from ferguson was shot by a st. Louis city Police Officer. He was pronounced dead on the scene. Police claim the suspect pulled a knife on an officer and refused orders to rerendsur rer. A crowd has since gathered. The suspect turned to the officers and started to walk towards them clutching his waistband. He then pulled out a knife and what we describeed as an overhand grip, told the officer, shoot me now, kill me now. The officers began giving him verbal commands, drop the knife, is it step back and drop the knife. The suspect dropped as he was approaching the driver and turned his attention to this officer in the passenger seat. Both officers are out of the car when they initially got out of the car did not have their weapons drawn. When the suspect displayed his knife, they drew their weapons and officers are giving the suspect verbal commands and stop, drop the knife, stop, drop the knife. Suspect moved towards the passenger and Police Officer in the passenger seat of the vehicle and at which time he came three to 4 feet of the officer and the officer shot. Both officers struck the suspect and suspect is deceased. Joining me now, nbc anchor, craig melvin. Can you describe the scene on the ground . Are people reacting to the news in north st. Louis in ferguson. Reporter not yet, alex. Its sort of business as usual so to speak as odd as that may sound. As you know, captain johnson asked Peaceful Protesters not to come out at night but instead do protesting during the day. Weve only seen a handful of protesters and continue to hear the car honking as well. We did hear one gentleman drive by shortly after that shooting happened, thats about 3 miles up the road. Heard one gentlemen drive by and all he screamed was, they shot another one, y all. They shot another one. Thats all we heard so far. The protests have been small and peaceful. As you know, thats been the case by and large since these protesters started. No problems when the sun is out. Tepically the problems happen when the sun goes down. Were obviously still just a few hours from that happening. Speaking of the sun going down, theres no curfew tonight, craig, but we know city of ferguson has asked residents to stay home. Theres been a lot of confusion what folks are allowed to do and not allowed to do. How much of the water has been muddied by the latest advice . Reporter you hit it nail on the head there. Theres a great deal of confusion. With regards to the curfew, captain johnson told me today that the curfew didnt have much of an effect last night as you saw, images bore witness too. Calling out the National Guard did not have much measurable effect although its important to note the primary mission was to secure the perimeter at the Law Enforcement compound headquarters so to speak. The confusion is a big problem. We spent time talking to a woman today who lives in a neighborhood about two blocks from here and what happens after the tear gas is fired, you know, were talking 12 or 1, and they get the main drag here clear. They get the main drag clear and a lot of folks that they get off the streets, they spill over into the neighborhood. They are in these neighborhoods for several hours, this woman had two children, she said for the last few nights shes spent several hours scared out of her mind, sirens going off. She hears shots outside in the neighborhood. They are down on the floor in their house. And meanwhile, youve got these, these the criminal element that is the term that Law Enforcement is using, criminal element, that essentially trapped in these neighborhoods and keep them in the neighborhoods until they can flush them out. So that as you might imagine, creates quite the problem. Its also important to note one point yesterday, we had two police lines and protesters in the middle. They clear the road and you still got a dozen or so protesters that are essentially trapped in the middle with no place to go. The confusion persists here in ferguson. National correspondent for the today show and nbc anchor, craig melvin. Take care out there. Crowds continue to gather on the streets of st. Louis, miles away from ferguson, missouri, where a 23yearold africanamerican male was shot earlier this afternoon. Moments ago st. Louis Alderman Antonio french, a presence at both the ferguson and st. Louis protests, urged calm. This is not ferguson. One of those problems in ferguson is those folks didnt feel they had representation and didnt have faith in government and didnt have faith in the Police Department. But they do have representation here. This is our neighborhood. Joining me now from ferguson, a Democratic State senator from the fifth district, senator shooed, thanks for joining me on a busy day. Do you think theres truth, that the st. Louis police, their initial response is better than the ferguson Police Departments response . Oh, absolutely. And i think that the city of st. Louis will get to the bottom line of that incident. Were going to have transparent and fair investigation. Let me ask you, alderman french pointed out one of issues he saw was lack of black representation in City Governance and institutions. Do you think this episode is going to galvanize more members of the Africanamerican Community to participate and also run for office . Oh, yes, im hearing right now that here in ferguson, that there would be a recall on the mayor here. You have a mayor that represents a majority of Africanamerican Community and not only is he not africanamerican, you have rerepublican and 90 democratic area. So yes, the people are looking for change. And i think that change will come. Because they want to see more representation and individuals that looks like them. I know that youve been leading the charge to get Bob Mccullough to encourage him to recuse himself from it. But it sounds like hes very unlikely to do that. What else would you like to see happen . It is time for Bob Mccullough to step aside for the betterment of not just the Ferguson Community but state of missouri. He needs to set aside his pride and do the right thing. The people here and the state of missouri mainly africanamericans dont trust he can be a fair and impartial. If he wants to tone down the madness that we see each and every night here in ferguson, then i think its incumbent for him to step up and do the right thing and step aside from this investigation. That would reduce a lot of the unrest here in ferguson. If he will there not be calm until he has recused himself . I couldnt hear. Is it that will there not be calm in ferguson until Bob Mccullough recuses himself . I think that is the first step. When he moves away from this discretion, that well see a tad bit of calm necessary in ferguson. But we have a lot of work to do. Say lot of young men on the streets each and every day are angry and frustrated. They are frustrated because of the economic and political oppression that they have to go through each and every day. We have young men being racially profiled, stopped while black. We have so many issues going on coming out of the prisons and serve her debt to society. They are knocking on the doors of opportunity earn the doors are slammed in their face because they walk in with the stigma of being an exfelon. They cant find jobs and thats why we have a 22 Unemployment Rate here in the state of missouri. So we have so many under currents thats thats allowing for those young men to come out and voice their concerns on the street. We have major issues that we need to deal with on a state level as well as a local level. When i go back to jefferson city, i will be pushing a piece of legislation that is called band of box. When they go out and fill out applications, that question will not be on the application if you are a felon. There is National Movement towards banning the blocks in a broader sense. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks for having me. Coming up, despite the calls for police demill tearization in ferguson, members of congress have mostly been silent. Ill discuss the prospects for reform coming up next. Bulldog its true i am a bundle of talent but my friends are learning skills that can change a life. Thats why mattress discounters good deed dogs is raising money to help train dogs like suzie to engage students in schools and special education classes. While ginger visits folks in the hospital offering quiet comfort. With your help, we can do even more make a donation at mattressdiscountersdogs. Com or any mattress discounters. Mattress discounters good deed dogs helping dogs help people. Tear gas, assault rifles and armored tanks and body armor, drawn xeattention to the extense use of military equipment. That town is hardly alone in its troef of military gear. Tracking Armored Vehicles to high powered assault rifles in a coast to coast disbursal of the military surplus equipment since 2006. Under the 1033 program the gear is given from the pentagon to the police free of charge. Over the course of the last week, the parade of images showing streets of ferguson as a war zone, those images have some on the left and right calling for a demilitarization of policing in america. Eleanor Holmes Norton weighed in. People were walking with their hands up and seeing that militarized force, you had an i am flam tri situation. Rand paul has gone on the record in agreement, declaring last week, we must demilitaryize the police, even conservative grover nor quist says the issue should be something the gop embraces. On the crime stuff a republican can stand up and challenge the aggressiveness of the cops and democrats are surrounded by images of people who different mum ya or whoever that was that thats unclear. A bill put forth is due to the end program did draw a response, 355 members from both parties voted against it. Joining me now, broin bo brian d sam stein. There have been discussions from many corners but congress, which actually has the power to maybe change the on the ground reality has been kind of quiet, you know, when we talk about deescalating the militarization of local police, how likely do you think that is . It depends on how the rest of the ferguson crisis plays out. Theres more momentum behind it than there was two weeks ago because were seeing how much militarization of local Police Actually backfires. But i think that the likelihood of a vote to end the 1033 program is very remote, even in this current climate, simply because a vote to end that program is so easily vilified and put out of context. What youre more likely to see is a set of hearings, make a few studies into the matter. I know leader pelosi indicated that she would support Something Like that in a Huffington Post article and president obama would be interested in having a conversation along those lines. Having a conversation launcheding a study, doesnt always, if in fact rarely leads to sme sort of legislative action. Thats usually the death nell for anything getting done. Talk to me about the weird Twilight Zone were in with Grover Norquist and rand paul have an easier time talking about breaking the bond between the Defense Department and local Police Forces than democrats do. Do you think Grover Norquists assessment, setting aside the remarks, that there is any validity to them . I think if you look below president obama Democratic Leaders that there are democrats like grayson and hank johnson are who are out there just as loud as rands paul saying there is time to use legislation to demilitaryize Police Forces across the country. Theres a larger consensus thats its bad politics to take weaponry away from local police, from Law Enforcement at a National Level and from the military because its sort of like the Willie Horton impulse, nobody wants to take that vote and have something bad happen and have political opponents runs against them. Isnt that representative of National Security and sort of antiterror crusading becoming increasing the third race in american politics . You can talk about entitlement programs and what you might do or not do but touching the issue of security is politically almost krip tonite. Yeah, you saw this left right civil Libertarian Alliance does something on capitol hill. The house passed an amendment that would ban dhs from using its funds to go after medical marijuana. And that was sort of a surprise. But when you talk about other issues like nsa surveillance, you had a close vote to defund that but it failed. Even if you saw sort of a ground swell of members of both parties says its time to end millitarization of police, a large group would defend them. Other groups that have been silent on this, the National Rifle association yes. I will read a quote from the daily beast, asks why isnt the nra defending fergusons blacks . The nra has been warning us about the threat of a heavily armed and dangerous for decades and somehow the nra seems to have missed the entire thing. It is dudes in s. W. A. T. Gear and tanks marching in americas streets. I will make a quote now. There has been a noticeable silence from the nra. And it is curious because this is sort of the scenario that they always paint as the nightmarish obama era government run amuck type of police state that the people need to arm themselves for. Now that being said, some of the more fringy begun Rights Groups have actually spoken up. And theyve ugsed this almost as a business proposition. Encouraging people to go out there and buy guns and arm themselves to the teeth. Which is somewhat expected for these groups but still a bit of an alarming trend. So were actually in the midst of doing reporting about why it is that the nra hasnt spoken out more forcefully on this or come up with a more obvious policy position or take on this matter. Im a bit curious as to whats going on. Brian, do you have a thesis or theory . I do have a theory, yeah. I think that do you want to share it with us . Dont share it, please. Ill share it as graciously as i can. I think that the the nra is sort of nominally a Second Amendment group, a Gun Rights Group at the level above that, it is sort of a money making operation because it is take lobby for gun manufacturers. As far as its actual advocacy on behalf of people, its constituency is white gun owners and they are they instill fear in the white gun owners by talking about the government but also talking about crime in inner cities. They are not a group thats really looking out for the interest of people in those cities who might feel like they need to arm themselves against out of control the people in the cities who have been victim to gun violence. Sam, i got to ask you, theres a lot of talk about what the legacy of ferguson will be and obviously its too soon to tell, one of things it is raised this conversation about, black representation and in governance and specifically in local and City Governance and stay governance, theres a voting registration booth that was set up near the scene of the crime where Michael Brown was fatally shot. And some folks say that is exactly what should come of this, more participatory elections and more representative democracy, some on the right have not agreed with that. A missouri gop county executive said or rnc executive said Michael Brown voting registration booths are disgusting. One wonders what this does to a population that has that is increasingly rightfully distrustful of institutions. And see a wrath of legislation sponsored by folks on right intended to suppress their votes. Im a bit torn about this. I think in an ideal world, the racial composition of governance of the police force wouldnt have been as much a big deal as it is now. There are plenty of unbalance, lets say, local, political organizations and Police Forces that have been involved in similar situations and handled them much more appropriately and calmly. Were doing a piece on that right now. The biggest thing, the mill tarrized response rach eted things up. That said, it would be nice to see things, see the Community Engage more cooperatively in the process now because of whats happened. To understand they do have a voice and do have influence over the political structure and over the policing structure of their own city and own communities. Yeah, brian, were getting breaking news in and i will make a quote, eric holder, the attorney general was briefed on the contents of the federal autopsy. It is to sams point, it is hard to imagine folks in this Community Turning around with any sort of optimism in terms of the institution being fair given how this is playing out, the fact the attorney general already has the results of the federal autopsy and local police have not released theirs, which is the more comprehensive autopsy. I think to sams point, the one point of leverage the people of ferguson have is the vote. To disparnlg the idea that its appropriate to enfranchise people who arent registered goes to show that you support the existing power and balance, whether its because its open tunistic to do so or its just the way things should be. Gentlemen, thank you both for your time and thoughts. The situation in ferguson has dominated national headlines. It has been an equally busy day around the globe. In iraq one day after iraqi and kurdish troops recaptured a vital dam in mosul, the Iraqi Military has launched a major offense to take back tikrit and did so by shelling isis positions in around the city. In ukraine, heavy street fightings continues in luhansk. This comes as the kremlin announced today that Vladimir Putin and poroshenko will meet face to face in belarus next week. In new york city, the zae in Staten Island announced he will open a grand jury investigation into the death of eric garner, who dialed last month after a struggle with Police Officers. The medical Examiners Office previously ruled that garners death was a homicide. That is all for now. Ill see you back here tomorrow 4 00. Our continuing coverage goes on with the ed show. Good evening americans, live from new york, lets get to work. Right now, its really out of control. We need to keep the focus on Michael Brown jr. Today my hope is that Peaceful Protesters will stay home. Everyone on the ferguson market parking lot needs to disburse. They could not stand there. They could not assemble there. They had to keep moving. Lets give attention to the peaceful, not those determined to disrupt. The cameras were rolling as a National Guard started rolling out of south st. Louis facility. It looked more military than anything else. The socalled ta