0 speculative about that, because it will cost. we could do mahler mitigation projects than building one large seawall. i guess in oklahoma, and i'm obviously not an expert at çal but hearing that story you could make the argument that for probably a small amount of money you could build a saferoom or cellar. we're thinking about similar things. here in new york we didn't get it right, either. there were some things we can't have done to make new york better prepared and better safe for the hurricane we had, but certainly going forward, we look at what is the best way we can expect the money for the best return. >> you know, ron, after hurricanes sandy a lot of analysts said this brings to fore the question of the role of government. a lot of folks thought that hurricane sandy in many ways frustrated the president's argument about the role of government and the need for go government to protect its citizens. you have in oklahoma where it begs that question, what is the role in government for the citizens and communities. you have to think that a lot of the families are asking themselves should we have had better protection? "new york times" said in a headline why no safe room to run to? cost and plains culture. they go to quote the former president of the oklahoma state home builders association, who says, weighing in on whether the government should man dade safe rooms in homes. most home builders would be against that, because we think the market ought to drive what people are putting in the houses, not the government. >> this argument is not new, it goes back to the boston tea party.ç since that time we've been full of people who hate our government until we need it. that's part of the american experience. we need to be careful about second-guessing ourselves. local decisions, but on the other hand when you have a situation that becomes a national tragedy and the national government is implicated, and taxpayers from around the country are involved in making that community whole, then it's not unreasonable to ì a conversation like we are having today. >> definitely. >> but i think there's a way to do it -- part of the problem, i think is this demonization of the role of government, which politicizes that you have the kind of comments we saw in "new york times," instead of how about a rational conversation that says we have this amount of money, maybe it makes sense to build shelters, rather than we don't want government coming in here, and similarly with teachers. teachers have demonized. how many stories we've had this year where teachers were the ones who were the mere hooeros. instead of going to movies about ironman, how about teachers? they literally throw their bodies in front of these kids, and maybe the seawall is not the right thing, but maybe there's other investments that make more sense. >> and it dovetails into a national conversation or a dialogue or demagoguing in some case that is we're having around civil servants, whether they're fire fighters, first responders, and also regulations, i feel like we have this anti-regulatory zeal, where it's hampering growth and here is a regulation i think may have kept some people safer. >> and what's startling about moore, this wasn't an abstract problem or abstract threat.ç high school students have been through this in their memory. so we have a pretty clear-cut case of ideology trumping actual experience, which is kind of strange and extreme thing. >> it's like, what's the matter -- i think we should not be demonizing government, but we also shouldn't be demonizing people whose first instincts are to be wary of government? >> we're talking about a community that was hit in 1999, in 2003, and again in 2013. there's no sense that oh, maybe we need to build homes differently? >> you're assuming that there's nobody saying that. >> fair enough. yes. >> and we don't know what factors went into the decisions. like, i agree with ron in that i'm reluctant to, you know, pass blame, but i hope that this community is able in the aftermath as a taxpayer i'm happy my dollars will go to hopefully build some shelters to save people the next time this happening, god forbid. i hope now they can have that conversation.ç if they weren't able to have it before. >> we know the parents in moore love their children, so the kinds of decision they'll make now will be motivated by the need to protect their children. we don't know what decisions they will make. we hope that they, you know, will make the decisions best for them, but certainly it's not unreasonable to have a conversation, you know, we've had the conversation in new york about what do we do to spend the money wisely that we're getting from the federal government to protect the people so next time we have a hurricane, and we know there will be another one giving global climate change, how do we mitigate the damage and protect people's lives? >> obviously you can't blame the tornado on climate change, but all the severe weather we're having, any scientist will tell you it's directly linked to climate change. >> that's a really long conversation. ron foundier ending this on a high note. >> may not make it to lunch. after the break, whether they're actually testifying or not, irs officials are spending another day on the capitol hill hot seat. yet irs office workers around the country were greeted by tea party protesters. we will discuss the latest round of grilling and whether or not there is actually a there there, when ezraç klein joins us live next on "now."