Transcripts For MSNBCW MTP Daily 20190325

Consulting with congress and without a sentence. And you cannot ununleash it. It did not conclude that they conspired with the rush shap government and the investigation it not make a determination about whether or not he committed a crime for obstruction of justice. Barr, however, did. And he determines that there determined that it was clear that muellers findings did not exonerate the president. Mueller specifically said he ris port did not do that according to barr. There is so many legitimate questions toward the general summary. But the challenge facing democrats and some of us in the press, too, is that barrs s summary made it easy as sour grates. The partisans can do what they do and duo whwe do what we do. Chuck rosenberg was a u. S. Attorney. He knows mr. Mueller pretty well. He is also an msnbc legal contributor. Nice to see you were sir. Bill barr is a principaled man, but it is that old reagan saying, isnt it . Trust but verify. There is stuff that we may not be able to see like grand jury information, classified information, information about ongoing investigations, but i would love to see as much as i can as soon as i can. Do you feel that barrs memo was written by someone with a legal mind or a political mind . Maybe a little bit of both. They are both lawyers and in political positions, right . They have to be salvvy in both aren arenas, i dont fight him. I do want to see the underlying facts, the prosecutors, and for a long time i have loved facts and that drives my analysis. And weeks ago about the obstruction issue, what does that tell you about barrs decision . Because obviously mueller did not feel comfortable making a decision in either direction on obstruction. He didnt feel like there was enough to exonerate him or enough to test, perhaps, we dont know this, but he left it unanswered according to barr, and barr decided to take matters into his own hands, what do you make of that decision . He should a taken matters into his own hands, the regulations are really clear, even though they contemplate the special council gets day today independence, and thats the phrase out of the regulations, day today independence, ultimately the attorney general remains in charge of the special council. It would be his decision in the end to make. What do i make of the fact that mueller didnt reach a conclusion why is that . I will be honest, i thought that mueller, being so concerned about going outside of the lines, that it was always going to be very narrow here. Part of me is not im not surprised that he would make a characterization on something as subjective. Im not terribly surprise, prosecutors get paid to make recommendations, thats what we do. Sometimes we fight about it internally, thats what we do. In the end, we get paid to make recommendations, it could also be a really good nonnefarious reason for not making one. If you cant prosecute a sitting president , then why make a judgment about whether or not why he can be charged with that thing. That decision, that judgment, hangs over a sitting president as if you charged him. That might be an explanation for it. Im curious though. I would love to see what what it is. If he needed to debate it at the Justice Department . I think he followed his mandate. He was given two things, or 15 5 things. Anyone on the Trump Campaign party and crimes that arose out of that investigation, he wasnt asked to make an investigation about impeachment or a report to congress, his that is what it is, i think his motive was to meat his order. It was that confidential part of the memo. He writes this, in cataloging the actions, it does not constitute obstructive conduct. Why do you think mr. Barr decided to put the phrase public view in there. Do you think he believes if you obstruct in plain sight, its not a crime . Let me flip it around a little bit. Most people who obstruct justice do it secretly , right . They dont tweet about it, they dont talk to journalists on National Investigation about it. Dhie it in a quite sinister way. Now as a legal matter, you could absolutely obstruct justice publicly and loudly. But i think mr. Barr is saying because it was done so openly, so notoriously, that it is not quite as sinister as the type of obstruction that we normally see. We have joked about this all of the time, if half of the stuff that the president said were found out via secret recording, the impeachment hearings would have begun two years ago. Maybe if mr. Nixon had learned about the things release the tapes. So you dont normally see this type of obstruction. It doesnt mean it cant legally constitute obstruction of justice. In making this determination, we noted that the special council recognized that the evidence does not establish that the president was involved in any underlying crime. Im going to get to that faze in a minute, and while not determative, this is something that barr himself argued in that infamous memo about the issue of obstruction where he basically made a case that you have to prove a crime before you can do obstruction. The president s motive in removing comey and commenting on flynn could not have been corrupt, barr wrote, unless the president and the campaign were guilty of illegal collusion. Because the claim is dependent on first finding collusion and he should not be required to interrogate the president about collusion. All right, this is a rabbit hole, i apologize for going down it, if youre trying to figure out collusion and he is obstructing, how do you get a chance to prove the collusion . It only requires an endeavor to impede justice. It only requires an endeavor. You dont even need as a matter of law an under lying crime. So i disagree with mr. Barr here, i think he is a principaled man, but i dont agree with that legal analysis. What he did, facing conduct, it is intended to obstruct an investigation whether or not not he conspired to interfere in the election. So these statuted in their interpretation are more art than science. Im confident that the law does not mandate this underlying crime. It is hard to speculate, but barrs memo now in hindsight seems like it was an important piece of information to know. I have always been buzzled abo puzzled about that memo. I dont know why he wrote it, i read it, i understand the argument, i dont completely agree with it, but he has a very robust view of the article two checktive prfgs. That is what he was articulating in that memo. I believe that it is that you dont charge there is obstructive behavior and one day he will be a former president. At this point is seems clear that while democrats have been perhaps check mated, a tough check on the mark here. There is a bit of confusion. His remark is comprehensive. But sure he will be asked a bunch of questions and he may not be able to answer all of them. Youre going to have things like classified information and grand jury information and information pertaining to informations ineventably in his investigation and in his report. Chuck rosenberg, im glad we took the time that we did trying to unpack this with as many facts and without the emotion. As always, sir, thank you for your expertise and your professionalism. Coming up, the cloud of the Mueller Investigation may have lifted over this white house but what remains could be a darker cloud that may linger for paul of us. Much more, thats next. R paul of us. Much more, thats next aight lin. Things happen. And sometimes you can find yourself heading in a new direction. But at fidelity, we help you prepare for the unexpected with Retirement Planning and advice for what you need today and tomorrow. 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Very few people i know could have handled it. We never ever can let this happen to another president again. That was the president talking about the special councils investigation after he decleared he was exonerated even though he wasnt, but they did hand the president a political victory. Also the president missing another opportunity to con dede russian interference. National political reporter from bloomberg news. Let me start with you. You have political experience too in dealing with congress a little, or at least understanding the political and legal come pat here. You said you still cant believe that Mueller Department make a recommendation. That is interesting, too. You see to be as per president elected as chuck roastenberg on this. Yes, the letter issued yesterday is confusing. It is confusing for two reasons. Number one it was after all the special councils mandate to make the decision to take it out yeah, that is the logic of the special council. Another is because that happened. We have democrats saying we cant believe that the trump appointee ag that wrote the memo on obstruction, made the final decision. On the surface, it is an illogical way to handle that piece. Politically though, this is close to a check mate on democrats right now. Yeah, we have one theory why mueller is going forth, making a decision on the obstruction. Anythingle anything less than a rock solid case could be used for the rest of history. I dont think he wanted to be the person that did that. He clearly thought there was evidence out there. He was afraid of the attorney general making a case. Yeah, there was a vacuum of information. None of us have made have read the Mueller Report. It is certain that democrats run the risk of beating this too loud on the collusion angle. That is why it started, barr said there was no collusion. Im glad you brought it up. You parsed a statement. As the report states, he did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign cord nads. It is expressed between the Trump Campaign and the word government does a lot of work there. Okay . The Internet Research agency did not technically work for the russian government, right . The other piece of this, in russia, first, a lot of them have very strong connections. Right, but what does the word government mean there that we dont know . Right, the other thing this does not address is Counter Intelligence probe that started under the fbi, mueller could it could still remain active for all we know. The question is still if the president is under the influence of a foreign government. And ken delanian said the fbi is going to brief the gang of eight. Whether or not that means the probe is finished, but in the next 30 to 60 days, that is the question that i think were all going to want to know. Take us in muellers head right now as a former prosecutor. When you have done all of your work and suddenly it is given to someone else, and you lose a little krog in this. It is true but normally when a prosecutor finishes his or her work it is a public indictment or a declination that Everyone Wants to hear about. That is very different here. When we read the Mueller Report in three months, will it matter . I think it will, i think there are politically salient nuggets in there. I think they can use some of it to go after and by the way theyre focusing on obstruction of justice, and president ial abuses of power potentially in construction, and i think they have enough to continue to talk about this, but jake is right the score of this was collusion and conspiracy. Between the Trump Campaign and russia and they do vent that. What penalty to the republicans pay for not letting go of the Clinton Emails and more why do we assume democrats would be penalized for this. They were never penalized for what they did for six years, i think they are putting themselves in their own weird box. I think republicans did pay for certain things, like the benghazi hearing. Was it though . Is she president of the United States . Good point, but there are other factors as well. That is a fair point, you cant say thousand will play politically, but democrats are increasingly worried about where they go. They want to keep it very tightly focused. And democrats on the campaign trail are not talking about this issue in is a side show. They want to talk about medicare for all. Theyre not going to Start Talking about it. Do you cover justice . Do you work in justice . Greg we just went through half of the country not believing james comey and the other half not believing bob mueller, now the other half of the country, the last of faith. Most of the country thinks our legal constitutions are politicized. This is a bad place for us to be. It is very bad, and i will say as a long time member of the extended doj family i do trust both the attorney general, bill barr, and bob mueller, but the recent history of the situation, i call what were about to see, i think the reverse clinton situation. House republicans were so incredulous that they could have recommended no charges against likt. I think the democrats will be tempted. Theyre not going to have the ammo to fire at mueller like they had to fire at comey, a lot of things were not comeys fault, but they will be incredulous at fact that they could not find more. So you think theyre going to how has the attitude adjusted. I spent a lot of time at justice recently and how is the pizza . It is good to be inside i will say that. Some of the things they have been underlining in this report is coming from a place of partial insecurity. It came from an attorney general that knew how to run the place, its not that its that he wants to defend this going forward. They found out three weeks ago that he flipped by the press, he had this meeting, muellers team, rod rosenstein, they said were not going to reach a decision on obstruction. And that it is not wanted for this to sit squarely on their shoulders, people are coming to his defense, but the idea that most of which has been a suggest of public reporting, the incidents theyre drawing, theyre like you already know of everything, but most gets me hung up. What will be next on capitol hill . Barrs temperature or barr is scheduled for a Budget Hearing that will turn into a massive mueller fest. Whats short term, whats next . We just had Something Interesting it will be a process of releasing the Mueller Report. Chuck schumer just went to the senate floor, asked for unanimous consent. Mitch mechancconnell blocked it what they have seen after the summary are not going to force it. I when to the subpoenas come, is that a nancy pelosi decision . Whether or not to issue these . I would like to think that based on my recent i was going to say you have done this. Yeah, i have been on the receiving end of the subpoenas and the conversations this is political like everything in washington, and like everything political it is suggest to negotiation. I would like to think and i know my former colleagues at d. O. J. Well. I would like to think they will figure out a way to give congress what it needs with respect to this report in a way that will avoid subpoenas and avoid an epic fight nap that is my hope. Thank you, were going to let you go, appreciate it, julia and jake, you have to stick around. Buckle up for serious fights on capitol hill over the Mueller Report and where do the rest of us get to hear it . Of course over how much will everyone get to see. Well talk to a democrat on one of those key committees, next. N of those key committees, next. Your moveinday. Feast. Your bold canine caper. [child] thats not for you, bandit your dinner in the dark. 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Dont stop taking xarelto® without talking to your doctor, as this may increase your risk of stroke. While taking, you may bruise more easily, or take longer for bleeding to stop. Xarelto® can cause serious, and in rare cases, fatal bleeding. It may increase your risk of bleeding if you take certain medicines. Get help right away for unexpected bleeding or unusual bruising. Do not take xarelto® if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. Before starting, tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures and any kidney or liver problems. Learn all you can to help protect yourself from a stroke. Talk to your doctor about xarelto®. Welcome back tonight on 2020 vision, nearly all of the democratic contenders have weighed in on the Mueller Report and everyone is in agreement on what they want to see happen next. The American People deserve to see the report itself. The Mueller Report must be made public. On tv and on twitter, democratic president ial candidates are calling for the relief of the full report. What would it take for democrats to move on . I think our goal here, oversight, is getting the facts out for the American People. And while theyre on the same page that the letter is not enough. The attorney general of the United States must be required to come and testifies, others are talking about how they have to just beat the president at the ballot box. Whether or not youre a democrat or a republican, we should want to see this report and want to move on from this. One president ial hopeful, senator kirsten gil brand, they really overshadowed, when the barr report news broke. Well be back after this 37 well be back after this 3 kchs whooo want to take your next vacation to new heights . 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Welcome back, attorney general bill barr hadded first word on the Mueller Report, but democrats want to make sure that he doesnt have the last word and theyre pushing for more sunlight. Jerry nadler is in contact with the Justice Department to set a day for barr to testify, they say theyre meeting tonight to discuss their next steps that could call for mueller being called to testify himself. And sources also tell nbc news that the fbi is planned to call the gang the eight to testify, but nancy pelosi said she would reject any classified briefing, she want to be able to talk about it publicly. Joining me is jerry connolly, he is joining me now, nice to see your, sir. Great to be but you, chuck. Let me ask the big question first, how can you convince the public there is more to investigate here without the appearance of this being sour grapes . Well, even taken the premise of that question, chuck, and you get where im going here and im being a little facetious. We have a fourpage summary not written by someone named robert mueller. I think making sweeping conclusions is premature. We want to see the full report to see what mueller had to say. So that he could neither determine a crime of obstruction of justice. That is stunning. In other words he thought there could be been a crime committed by the president of the United States. I dont know about you but i want to know more about that, and we dont have that. Even on collusion, what he found was no criminal conspiracy to collude by anyone in the campaign, but that doesnt address the many, many russian contacts and the russian overtures. What was that all about, and we dont want that to be a new normal in american politics. Do you worry that essentially mueller went right by the book and he had a very narrow view of where he could go and bill barr, who wrote that memo for all of us to see, had a very expansive view of how much power he had over this and he took it. Mueller wept narrow and barr went maximum and you guys got checked. I think there is something to that. I think also, frankly, one interpretation of what is happening is the attorney general working hand and glove with the white house is gaming the system to frame the narrative. The fact that the way you framed your question, tells you how effective that is being so far. Somehow collusion is completely exonerated, the report is pretty dead, we need to move on, those are white house talking points, and they dont reflect what i think is in the Mueller Report and they dont reflect the concerns we have here on the hill and those of the American People. How do you catch up . I looked at this and youre just like wow, i mean, barr filled a vacu vacuum, and you dont know what you can push back on because you have not read the report. It is a unfair position to put congress in. I think that is right and i think it puts the white house at an advantage that they are cynically using to their full benefit. And with the aide and comfort of the attorney general of the United States. And that is rather distressing. Here is my concern, we had comey do things one way and we didnt like it. There was a uproar. He took matters into his own hands because he was worried about it being politicized. Here is a case that mueller put it into the chain of command like the statute recommended and were still worried it is being poe l politicized. Fair or unfair, how do we fix this . Well, i think we have to allow this par port t of the pl playout. Everyone has to have the same base of investigation. Congress needs to be provided with the under lying documentation to justify the findings that mueller made or didnt make, and there is a lot of Unanswered Questions raised by the four page summary itself. Who do you want to testify first, barr or mueller . Right now i think the attorney general. He has some explaining to do. He made what seems to be a very quick and if not rash decision to go on the side of no crime committed in terms of obstruction of justice even though mueller gave him the alternative of i cant exonerate him from a crime. We want to know all about what was that. If there is a substantial discrepancy between the Mueller Report and barrs summary, we want to know about that, too, what were you thinking and why did you change the meaning of the report if that is what happened. How do you get the Mueller Report . Are you worried that this will be harder . Is this going to be like the last scene in raiders of the lost ark and it gets buried in a warehouse in new hampshire. I will say, republicans are on the horns of a dilemma here. If they withhold the report, it keeps alive the conspiratorial theories about what this is all about if they release the Mueller Report info, i suppose they risk embarrassing information or worse. They have to pick their poison here, but in either case i think is in their interest to release the report and err on the side of transparency. If theyre winning the narrative why would you want to turn that around. After you get to see the Mueller Report will you accept his conclusions . Muellers version, not barrs version. Will you accept his conclusions . Im inclined to, but what are conclusions, he didnt make a conclusion on obstruction of justice, so im going to have to figure out why didnt you . And by the way why can didnt you subpoena the president and put him under oath so you have his sworn testimony to help you resolve that issue. So there are a several things were going to want to know more about, so i think he will have to testify. Thats what i want to hear him answer, why didnt you subpoena the president . I think it is very important. Thank you for coming on to share your views. Up ahead for a president that always has a lot to say, there is one very big thing he is silent about. Talking to you about screening for colon cancer. Luckily theres me, cologuard. The noninvasive test you use at home. It all starts when your Doctor Orders me. Then its as easy as get, go, gone. You get me when im delivered. Right to your front door and in the privacy of your own home. Theres no prep or special diet needed. You just go to the bathroom, to collect your sample. After that, im gone, shipped to the lab for dna testing that finds colon cancer and precancer. Cologuard is not right for everyone. It is not for high risk individuals, including those with a history of colon cancer or precancer. Ibd, certain Hereditary Cancer syndromes, or a Family History of colon cancer. Maybe ill be at your door soon ask your doctor if cologuard is right for you. Covered by medicare and most major insurers. This and even this. Hark, i deep clean messes like this. But i dont have to clean this, because the selfcleaning brush roll removes hair, while i clean. [announcer] shark, the vacuum that deep cleans, now cleans itself. Welcome black, a barrage of reactions to the Mueller Report, but one thing that no one is talking about in all of the posturing and the cluck clucking, russia successfully sewed chaos and confusion in our 2016 president ial election. Hard stop. They launched a Covert Campaign of malicious behavior, hard stop. They me nefariously drove our country apart. Mitch mcconnell mentioned it in his statement on sunday, one of the few leaders to do that without being asked. But you know who has not . It was Just Announced that there was no collusion with russia, the most ridiculous thing i ever heard if is a shame our country had to go through this. To be honest it is a shame that your president had to go through this. The president never ever condemns russias interference in the 2016 election, ever, what is stopping him . What is it going to take . This is good news that nobody in his campaign actively colluded, if thats what mueller found. But the president is still not condemning russias attempt to do this and the actual attack. Please dont say it is because russias attack ended up helping him politically. Please dont say its because the attack might diminish his victory. Here is what cant be debated. Modern tools, modern form of information warfaire, and it wa more successful than we could have imagined and the president doesnt care about this and that is why so many people have trouble believing him when he denies so fervently collusion with any russians. O fervently c with any russians. Theyre americas biopharmaceutical researchers. Pursuing lifechanging cures in a country that fosters innovation here, they find breakthroughs. Like a way to fight cancer by arming a patients own tcells. Because its not just about the next breakthrough. Its all the ones after that. Simple facts, the American People elected this republican president other his democratic opponent. That was senator Mitch Mcconnell in the last hour criticizing what he called jake, lets be honest here, this is congress is going to look like i feel like were going to look a little bit like 2011 and 2015, right . Just constant partisan bickering from both of the house and senate. Yes, but nancy pelosi is a strong speaker. Im not passing judgment on the two men that were speakers in 2011 no, but schumer and mcconnell are going to play this game all day long. For sure. Its a Competitive Senate map. So there is a partisan incentive structure that allows them to do this. And there really isnt any other legislating that needs to get done between now and the election there are small things, but there isnt really hope in divided government. Youre right. Its going to be all of this bickering partisan investigations going forward. That was a spark of a Mitch Mcconnell that feels a lot of political relief that his members do not have to deal with. Thats right. Dont have to deal with impeachment, thats the real thing he is happy they dont have to deal with, i would imagine. Or to answer questions about the president and collusion, which theyre less comfortable doing than the president himself. This president , the guy weve gotten to know, julia, seems to relish these dirty fights and even though the facts only support him s55 of the way, he is going to go 100. Inflation, conflation, whatever does that mean . Thats donald trump selling real estate. To live in gray areas. He likes to be all or nothing. And he likes to go further than they will. The thing where he gets in trouble on this he is not out of legal hot water. There are a number of investigations, Southern District of new york. Looking into the Trump Organization there are state attorneys general. Theyve got taxes and maybe trump jr. On something with the organization. But politically, jake, i feel like there is sort of a double edged sword here for the republicans. On one hand, there is relief. On the other hand, theyre stuck with trumpism. This is now how theyre defined. Theyre defined by him, and theyre defined by this. And i think democrats risk being defined as antihim. And that i think that comes with risk. But it is now about him, this party. It is. And i will play devils advocate for one second. He is a guy who lives in the moment and a guy who takes advantage of the political reality. He doesnt care about longterm issues. Right. But this is also a party that has lived under a cloud for the last two and a half years who finally get to feel free like theyre living in a legitimate presidency. And ive had republicans say that to me in the last 24 hours. Finally, we feel like were existing without this cloud. Do democrats have to do deals with him now . All right, lets do infrastructure . Or im sitting here going, i just think trumps behavior wont let him. Hell so poke them in the eye, it will make it impossible to work with him. If there is a deal on infrastructure, i think they would do it. If there is a deal to be made. I dont think there is any if much legislating to be done. I think the last stage of the cloud being lifted is going to be the release of this report. It has to come out. I dont think a fourpage summary is going to satisfy the critics. And as congressman connelly pointed out, its going to cause people to ask why arent they releasing it . What are they hiding . This investigation produced 199 charges, 37 indictments and guilty pleas, five people who went to prison, and no underlying crime on the core issue of collusion. Why were so many people lying why were gates, flynn and papadopoulos lying . Its bizarre. There has never been this much smoke without a core fire, we dont have the Mueller Report. And im skeptical that were going to see it quickly, jake. Timing i dont know. But we were just talking about we all agree were going to see something in some period of time. But washington has its issue for the next x months, because this is all democrats on the oversight side are going to be focusing on, this, the trump business. Is it going to sound like sour grapes . How is that going to sound in three months . Look, this is where i think the republicans could torture the democrats. Even though theyre in the right to be complaining they dont get to see this Mueller Report, that they basically forced them to drag it out of barr so that it always looks like they cant let it go. And then would ask the Political Savvy ones at the table, is this then able to hand the president a win without him accomplishing anything legislatively . Because for each piece of a legal surviving his presidency. As soon as each legal thing drops and clears him, is that a win without him actually having to come to the table. 100 . Two different dynamics. This is a Republican Congress where members exist only in trump districts. Sorry. Theyre not in control, but the republican might bes of the house exist exist in trump districts uniformly. He hasnt told me, but logic would dictate and his aides are saying he is going to say they tried to take me down. They had this star prosecutor, a team of 20 democrats, and i survived. They tried to turn your election over. And it just builds the case of deep state versus trump. Having said that, if democrats do find something on Campaign Finance or issues related to the Trump Organization where there is evidence, then thats potentially an argument they could make. Thats a line of investigation they could do, if they do it carefully. They have to figure out how not to make it look like a overreach, to seem reasonable. And individually, it does. But the problem is, as we all know, if they find something, 100 of them jump on it, right . And then it looks like a bandwagon. And it takes so much longer for them. So the way an investigation like this works, weve been at this for 22 months. Politics move so much faster. So if they jump on to something, they start issuing subpoenas, or they start to talk a lot about one of these investigates, if its Campaign Finance or what, it wont give them the win they want in the amount of time they need. If he were sort of any kind of normal presidency that wanted to be a 60 president , i could make a case he should address this nation this weekend. And say look, i know there has been a cloud over this presidency. This is not in his dna so it wouldnt happen. But it should happen. He will say no collusion. He will say i won. I know. This version. Not me, and they failed. Every day. But do you see what i mean . Another president could actually youre absolutely right. You could have a honeymoon. But thats now how he has handled himself at this investigation. He has taken shots at it. A witch hunt. Now today he is an honorable man. He sees governing as a binary. Youre investigating me or were doing work together. There is no in between. You cant do both. Bill clinton was you can do both. Julia jacobs, thank you. Happy monday. Well be right back. K. The Tech Industry is supposed to be a leader in invention and progress. 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Ty its a save more with a new kind of Wireless Network store. Its a look what your wifi can do now store. A get your questions answered by awesome experts store. Its a now theres one store that connects your life like never before store. The xfinity store is here. And its simple, easy, awesome. Well thats all we got for today. Its been quite the 96 hours, and its going to be quite the week up ahead. Thanks for watching. I really appreciate it. I hope you watch tomorrow. In the meantime, the beat with ari melber starts right now. Good evening and welcome to a special edition of the beat from washington on the first work day since the Mueller Probe ended with no chargeable collusion and an open question on whether donald trump obstructed justice. My exclusive guest tonight is former attorney general eric holder who served under president obama and is on the beat tonight for his first interview since the Mueller Probe ended. Thank you for being here. Its good to be here. Before we get to your assessment of all this, what does it mean that this probe ended with 37 indictments . What did they find