Denies. And it looks like mueller has a gut punch. We saw the president do something we have never really seen before. He declared defeat and seemed to admit it. Ly sign a bill to open our government for three weeks until february 15th. I have seen and heard from enough democrats and republicans that they are willing to put partisanship aside, i think to be clear the he accepted the offer that he got at the beginning of the shut down. Nbc news has cracked a few codes in this filing, and contained in the charges is an apparent road map of how Trump Campaign collusion including Senior Campaign officials, possibly mueller himself. Stone appears to have been fed the knowledge of those woikileas exposures. Mueller revealed that a Senior Campaign official has been directed to contact stone about any additional releases and what over damaging organization had regarding the clinton campaign. The indictment talks about how he got a status of future releases by wikileaks, its information, and the high ranking official is steve bannon. It is a remarkable indictment on a remarkable day. What does it mean from the president . It is possible collusion between wikileaks and the Trump Campaign. Lets bring in chuck rosenfort. Sal wisenberg. Pete, let me start with you. This indictment seems to be in two parts, explain. Certainly in terms of the charges that is one part. The legal trouble for roger stone is that when he was asked about all of this in front of the house intelligence committee, he lied. He lied about his contacts, the nature of his contacts, he lied about whether or not he had text and email messages. If he asked for information from Julian Assange, and his communications with the intermediary. You talk about collusion between the campaign and wikileaks, at best it is collusion two steps removed. He was pounding his chest and brags i know what wikileaks will do. And they said find out what else you can find. It was so embarrassing to deb by wasserman schultz. He contacts to other people that would be in touch with assange, and a radio host who had julian assa assange and his radio show. So trump said find out what he knows, and there are all kinds of jobs. Find out if there is anything more about their inabout to act effectively as sec fair of state. When he was asked about all of that he lied and he told his intermediary to lie as well and very colorfully the indictment said be like that guy in the godfather movie that lied when he was called before congress. If he doesnt lie before congress about his contacts, and if he was as specific, denying specific portions of i didnt move documents from russians and things like this. Would it be a crime to coordinate with wikileaks. Well, so maybe, were nibbling at a conspiracy here, right . Pete is right i dont think this indictment of stone demonstrates at conspiracy, but it hints at one. Is it a crime to coordinate, well if they knew, for instance, that wikileaks was getting their information from hacked dnc computers courtesy of russia, sure. But if they thought wikileaks just stumbled into it and they wanted it for Opposition Research in the campaign, then no. The answer is a big fat maybe. Based on what we see here in the indictment, we dont have that yet. Does this explain why Rudy Giuliani started talking about i only denied collusion between the president and himself as an individual, not speaking for the entire campaign, all of a sudden that seems relevant now. Do you find that relevant . I cant begin to fathom the reasons for what rudy juligiuli says. Thats long kgical but youre assuming a logical and rational world. They dont have criminal conspiracy yet as evidenced in this indictment. To have aiding and abetting you have to know something is going on that is essentially criminal and you have to knowingly decide to join it. Similar with conspiracy. So the question would be always there has to be a crime at the end of that. Here the krum would be gcrime w aide from russia, or knowing their hacking computers, it is certainly not there yet, but it is very embarrassing for the trump folks. One of our other legal analysts that i heard this morning, joyce vance, she said it looks like onehalf of an indictment. How are we supposed to interpret that. Explain that in english for us. I think what she meant is that as an experienced prosecutor reading it, she thought they have more and theyre not sketching it all out here. Theyre possibly holding it hoping that maybe he will make an agreement and hold it over his head. Are they testing to see if he wants to cooperate. It seems like he doesnt, but what joyce may be driving at is there is things you may know but you cant prove, there are things that you know you know. I sound a little like rumsfeld. I didnt intend that. But sometimes they just not there yet. When you look at the manafort indictments, he was charged in two districts, but in another one they super seeded when they brought more charges. I think what joyce is getting at is that there is more to the story. Whether or not they tell the rest of the story by charging stone or tell the rest of the story in a report, or tell the rest of the story by charging others remains to be scene. Can i get to a point about whether or not this was a crime or not. The skens of events, they say we have been hacked by the russians. So at that point before they put anything out in july anyone trying to get the emails should have known. The is good, this will feed off of your point here, it is five days in july that we think is significant here. That same day is when the Senior Campaign official directs is directed to contact stone to find out more. Five days more is when candidate trump asked russia to find the emails, that same day according to mueller they did target k clintons emails. Is that pattern there suddenly of criminal interest. Does it paint a larger experience picture . Everything is of potential criminal interest for special council mueller. I never bought the theory that i hear from time to time that mueller has a grand plan and he is dliribbling this stuff out. If he had a case, and he has a number of cases here, and he puts them forward, i think if he had something greater than what we have seen, we would have seen it in charging interests. Roger stones attorney, grant mitt, said the following thing today, if they found anything they would be charging him with it. Is that your assumption . I agree with that if you have the evidence. If you look at all of the agreements, those that came in and pled, you have the person pleading to the tact that he did, but you him plead to the high e highest highest criminal act. You could add a few elements and have a conspiracy but you dont have them right now. There is a difference between what we dont like and what is criminal. We may not like that someone said find out what theyre going to do next, but that doesnt make it a crime. We were talking about one of the challenges in how we cover this story is there is a portrayal that everything is one thread and it will all be connected. It seems to me what feels like five different threats, circles, buckets. There is wikileaks. The trump tower meeting. Trump tower moscow. Paul manafort and his dealings with the ukraine and russian intelligence asset, and the russian infiltration of our system. Is it possible that theyre all going to lead to the same maybe countries interference in putin, but theyre not connected . They may be connected in the broadest sense only by common players, but we speak as prosecutors of multiobject conspiracies. Maybe one of the conspiracies is that the president directing cohen to pay off trump mistresses. Maybe one of the conspiracies is to, you know, betweenman fort and gates to commit financial fraud. They may not be connected at all, and the five that you mentioned, they all seem to be similar but but it could be in the end their just separate conspiracies. One of the things that we have spoke about here. She was in the obama administration, and im warning you here im teeing up pete on a topic i want you to comment on. It looks like mueller may be able to connect wikileaks to the Trump Campaign and russia to wikileaks. We have not seen the threats to connect trump to russia on the roger stone line of investigation. Correct and nor does this indictment connect roger stone to russia. It says that roger stone was bragging that he could get this stuff and the Campaign Said well go for it, see what else you can get, and he then freelancing on his own, instead of in a self promotional way, he is trying to push other people to see what they can get from wikileaks. He painted this own target on his back. He was publicly claiming early on he had been in touch with Julian Julian assange. But nothing directly connects him to the campaign or the russians. So what is wikileaks. Is it a journalistic organization, which if it is, i think the questions of what is criminal and what isnt as sal put it, you may not like it, it may be unethical, but it may not be illegal. Or are they a front for russian intelligence. And it seems the American Intelligence Community is convinced theyre a conduit. What is that intelligence . I think first of all they may have started as whistleblowers. None of their whistle blowing inlewded releasing cables or information that the detrimental to the kremlin. They were always very russia friendly and something happened and the Intelligence Community believes that wikileaks has been an operative. They have not been part of the russian government but they are working to help them. The evidence for that is, again, an absence of any kind of leak that makes russia look bad. And the cooperation with goosifer 2. 0. We later found out that was not a individual, it is the Russian Military intelligence unit. So you had them basically telling wikileaks we have this information and wikileaks asking for the information, but who knows what was going on behind the scenes. Certainly he was not having another channel with the russian government. I would assume if they could make this assessment, what would be the types of evidence they would have . They would have more than just making an analytical assessment, correct . Sure, it wouldnt all necessarily be in roger stones emails, right . There is all types of tools the u. S. Government has. That they rely on, they collect, they analyze, but you may not see it in an indictment either. So this is what i was trying to say earlier but i didnt do a good job of. It may be that the mueller team knows exactly what happened, but theyre not going to put it into a public indictment. We were all surprised at the evil of detail for the intelligence officials was extraordinary. We know what theyre capable of knowing, the mueller team, it may just be that for some reason were not going to see here. They have sufficient charges against roger stone, they will con vuvict him and theyre keep the jewels for something else. They have decided theyre not a journalistic society. I have to take a break, thank you. Chuck youre stuck. We are never going to let you leave this building. Is roger stones indictment just the beginning . What could come next as Roger Mueller builds his case. 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I think he is doing a great job making America Great again. That was roger stone vowing he would never testify against President Trump. That has been a promise that has been made and broken by other past trump associates, perhaps most famously Michael Cohen who sads he would take a bullet for trump which is not the case now. Joining us is chuck rosenfort. Let me begin with the idea that stone, carol lee, would never taerld e turn against the never turn against donald trump. I think your first point is the key point. Not only the rupt is deeper, but she a different animal. He is a different type of person. He is a show boat. His whole persona is around being defiant and in your faus. I was just going to say im hoping the team will put up the nixon thing. That was quintessential roger stone. He has a sttattoo of nixon o the back of his neck, the idea, and im sure you heard millions of times people say i will never flip, i will never flip, but he is just a little different in that sense. The other thing that he said when he came out was that it is better to be talked about than not talked about. And the way he would be talked about is just not the kind of thing that brought it just goes completely against his whole mo. The president tweeted this morning greatest witch hunt in the history of our country. By the way, who alerted cnn to be there . Chuck rosenberg you have been very upset by the way some are portraying what the fbi did, and why is it so appropriate . And i was about to get a nixon tattoo, but im going to hold off for now. You look like a tattoo guy. I dont think it is even a close call. Here is why. Even though it may be a first offense, it seems like a white collar criminalish thing, he is chargedtampering. Tells a witness he will go after his dog and then he says prepare to die expletive. You fill in the blank. If youre the fb urks, if youre a federal prosecutor, you dont tolerate that behavior nor do you risk that if you hand him a summons that he wont make good on that threat. So you ask a course for an arrest warrant, and in this case they granted it and they executed it properly. With guns . You bet, fbi agents carry webs, thats what they do. I think the outcry about arresting him is nonsense. Anna, i think youre our expert on jerome coursey. The what rogers, when he was witness tampering, it was these two that he was trying to shape their testimony. Walk us through that relationship and why is he depending mueller today and saying im praying for roger stone, but mueller is telling the truth . This is really interesting when you read through the indictment and you see all of the lies that roger stone told the Congressional Committee. He actually gave me exclusive access to multiple text massages with the radio host that had a connection to Julian Assange. It is very interesting in trying to protect his narrative he remembered telling the Congressional Committee that randy in supplemental testimony was his back channel to wikileaks. He felt that by showing these Text Messages is proed that point and yet it flew correctly in the face of what he told Congressional Committees. So he is probably wondering about his strategy. The fact is that mueller got his hands on all of the communications. Now stone goes back a long time with both of these men and he considered them friends. Until he started to intimidate randy and try to get him not to tell investigators he was the back channel. And more recently they have fallen out. Once he said they provided that system, he turned on him. She a liar and somebody working. He says he was shocked by the arrest. He is praying for roger stone, and he still might sue him next week. Would you portrait him as a patsy here or someone that was wanting to be bigger than he was. I think you could use that characterization for all three of these men. I think that is a fair point the other riddle is why is roger stone so careful in what he says in Public Television interviews and so careless talking to congress. Listen to these two answers to questions i asked him. I can say with confidence that i dont know of any rub shan collusion or any other inappropriate act that i ever had any advanced knowledge of the content, the source, or the exact timing of the wikileaks disclosures. There is no evidence whatsoever that i had advanced knowledge of the content or the source of the material. I passed nothing on to donald trump and the Trump Campaign. We have been through this ad nauseam, this is a wild goose chase. At that point in time for what it is worth in 2016, how confident do you feel that it was nothing but a russian front . I think the world should have known because we had some of the evidence out there, how did they get the dnc emails when it was kored at t covered at the print media. Everybody figured the hack was probably from a state entity, probably from russia, and Julian Assange and his coordination with russia, but the world saw that these hacked emails that the russian govern