He never made the agreement. I think he knew he was looking at jail time. It was how much he could shave off. And i think thats what were beginning to get some idea at. I would throw this question to chuck, is one of the central key differences here between these two, between the flynn and cohen case, is that flynn cooperated immediately, early, right out of the gate and often. And that cohen was late . One of the big differences here is between early cooperation and late cooperation . Flynn was immediate, it was fullsome, it was timely and it was therefore substantial. Cohen was later and less. Look, to the earlier point about tension, theres always tension. Doj is a big family, but in the end its a family and theyre going to reach one point of view, its articulated in this document. Im going to thank joyce, chuck, ken, the reverend. Chuck is going to pick up our coverage right now. Hi, chuck. How are you doing, one down, two to go. Enjoy. What are you talking about here . This is what ive been doing while you guys have been talking. Have a good show. Im chuck todd in washington. We are going through these various memos we got the first two in, one more coming up, buckle up. Were expecting all three of the Crucial Court filings to be public in this hour. We have the one that nicole and company have been chewing over for a few minutes. It appears we just got another one, this from bob muellers team and the federal prosecutors, that focuses on Michael Cohen and Paul Manafort, it will be interesting to see if the Special Counsels office has a different view of Michael Cohen in sentencing than the Southern District of new york. Youve gotten a preview there. The Southern District of new york doesnt want to give too much credit to mr. Cohen and his cooperation. Lets get right to our
investigations reporter, tom winter. Ive done my best to digest memo one and it sounds like the Southern District is saying these are serious crimes, Michael Cohen only cooperated after he realized he was in deep trouble, he should get some credit, but not a lot of credit. What else are you learning . As far as anybody expecting here were going to learn more about what Michael Cohen may have said to prosecutors in the Southern District of new york and his attorneys had said, chuck, there was a separate ongoing federal inquiry in new york, which he was being helpful to, federal prosecutors making it clear he hasnt been helpful at all. Theyre not going to offer a 5k, which is what would be put in a file, if i signed a formal Cooperation Agreement and was kind of handing everything over, providing new information, leads, going deep into my criminal history, thats a part of it, i might expect a 5k where
the government said this guy has gone Above And Beyond where he needed to do, and your honor were asking you to take down any sorlt of imprisonment or sentence we want to see imposed here. Theyre saying the exact opposite. He did not want go into his criminal history. He did not want to go beyond the things he was charged with. He didnt want to go beyond the payments that were made to Stormy Daniels and Karen Mcdougal. Two individuals who have alleged affairs with the president. He didnt want to go into any criminal activity that went beyond that. In addition the federal prosecutors of new york are saying he did not want to go beyond any of his prior criminal history, which is interesting, which might lead us to believe that there are other things that federal investigators in new york might be interested in. They did say in there, one meeting with him. He had one meeting with federal prosecutors in new york according to their filing, they
found him to be generally truthful and credible, so they didnt dump on him as a witness potentially long term. They said, look, as far as the totality of the cooperation we think he k0u6 brought it wasnt all there, chp leads us to the next filing, which is the one that hit as you were starting to speak on the air which is from the the Special Counsels office. Im going to look there and see if he provided more information to Robert Muellers team that could have been helpful. In fact, were going to find out that in a minute. Let me go to mimi rocah, a former assistant u. S. Attorney of the sof earn district of new york, and danny so val lis, and frank, so mimi, is this how much how much input would bob
mueller have had in the memo that was written by the Southern District of new york . Because this felt like a rebuttal to Michael Cohens filing, period. Did it have would it have incorporated bob muellers recomme recommendation or not yet . Chuck since you started by referring to it as a sovereign district, i think thats appropriate. While we as a country may be more interested in how cohens cooperation fits into this broader National Inquiry thats going on about the president , et cetera, you know theyre in front of a judge and judge pauly, who ive been in front of many times is not a judge to not take very, very seriously. And so they have to deal with the circumstances and the facts of the case that they are litigating. And right now they have a defendant, you know, who Michael Cohen who did not sign a Cooperation Agreement with them. And i think theyre being as straightforward and transparent as they can be with the judge. I havent looked at this in enough detail yet but based on toms summary of it, theyre saying, look, he didnt cooperate with us. We wanted him to give us more information and he would not do that. However, he cooperated with the Special Counsel, was truthful there. Now the reason for that dichotomy, why hes cooperative in one and not the other, we dont know yet. There may be more to the story. But theyre laying it out for the judge, which is the best you can do as the prosecutor, the government, to say heres the facts. One case he didnt cooperate, one case he did and he was truthful. My guess is, im totally guessing that Robert Muellers office was allowed to read over this submission, not to have a you know, yay or nay in the final say of it, but to make sure theres nothing in it that
reveals anything they wouldnt want revealed. But this is the Southern Districts case and theyre laying out the facts as best they can for the judge. Danny, youre not just playing a Defense Attorney here, you are a Defense Attorney. Let me read you this one paragraph specifically from the memo here. While cohens provision of information to the Special Counsel merits credit, his description of his actions as arising solely from some personal resolve as opposed to arising from criminal charges, acknowledges that he first reached out to the Special Counsel at a time when he knew he was under threat of imminent indictment by this office. So that thany statement that th
selfless case is unstated. I know attorneys put in a few days ago asking for leniency, you heard that. What do you expect the judge to do about the belief of what cooperation looked like . What a study of contrast between Michael Flynn, Michael Cohen and maybe at the other end of the extreme, Paul Manafort. And Michael Cohen is the example of a defendant who has cooperated some but not quite enough to warrant a 5k1 motion or substantial assistance that can reduce his sentencing significantly. Last week his attorneys did a good job creating an atmosphere where it made Michael Cohen as the picture of cooperation, he rushed in to cooperate and should get the same benefits that Michael Flynn got. But the government today was quick to counter that and make absolutely clear that while he helped some, he didnt help and rise to the level of that precious 5k1 motion that federal
defendants seek when they cooperate. That can have a huge affect on the final sentence. And that means that the government here is being reasonable in the sense theyre asking for a guidelines to below guidelines sentence, but thats not as good as life could have been for Michael Cohen had he fully and completely cooperated. Frank, youve probably dealt with this before. Where youve got somebody whos extraordinarily cooperative for you on one instance, another Law Enforcement district says, yeah, but you know this guys done nothing for me and my investigation. Walk us through those Little Agency to Agency Fights or district to District Fights if youve ever gotten into them. Certainly have. And the Southern District of new york has played in many of those conflicts, intentions. And in an ideal world, chuck, you want cooperation and coordination amongst all the
agencies and all the various pros prosecution entities. Youre saying lets rank order the degree of cooperation and lets try to prioritize who has a more important thing going on here. Thats difficult to do when you have the Special Counsel and the sovereign district of new york, if they even sit at the table. It should surprise no one that cohen and everyone surrounding this president is in it for themselves, is trying to make the best deal, have it both ways, try to protect their personal interests while squealing or snitching on someone else. Thats not a surprise to anyone based on what we know about cohen and the trump associates. What is slightly surprising is the apparent lack of coordination and one sheet of music. But im waiting to hear more
from what the Special Counsel is going to say in his filings. Thats fair. Mimi im curious when i look at this part on page 16 of the filing. Cohen further declined to meet with the office on other areas of investigative interest. Is this basically saying to Michael Cohens attorneys, if you will sit down and sign this agreement and basically lay it all out on the table, maybe we can talk again . Right. First of all i want to clarify something. I dont know that we should start reading this as a break between the sdny and the Special Counsels office. This may be more coordinated than we think in the sense that he does not have a Cooperation Agreement with the Southern District because he didnt well, we dont know why exactly. So i guess is this pressure . Right. Then maybe so to your point, though, that opportunity is not that door is not closed yet. Okay. Yes. So once he is sentenced and my guess is he will get prison
time, how much we dont know. But, you know, i think it will be quote substantial. Again, judge pauly is not a judge known for light sentences. But, you know, he is going to get some credit here and he should get some credit. But even once youre sentenced, there are procedural mechanisms written into the Federal Rules Of Criminal Procedure that allow a defendant to cooperate post sentence and get further credit to reduce his sentence. And that could go a really long way here, so absolutely the door is still open. Michael cohen is respected by guy pa tril low who knows this inside and out well see what happens. Let me pause the legal analysis here for a minute. Tom winter, you just poured through muellers first memo, i think were expecting two from him. What did we learn . Chuck, just to pig by back off of mimis point, i think
its important to know this is not necessarily a break here. Theres not necessarily a fight twi between the Southern District and the Special Counsels office. The Special Counsel is providing more detail here as far as how Michael Cohen may have been helpful to him. Im going to read this section here. The defendant, whos Michael Cohen, also provided information about attempts by other Russian Nationals to reach the campaign. For example, in or around november 2015, cohen received the Contact Information for and spoke with a Russian National who claimed to be a quote trusted person in the Russian Federation who could offer the campaign government synergy. This person proposed a meeting between individual one and the president of russia. We know individual one is referring to the president of the United States, donald trump. The person told cohen such a meeting could have a phenomenal impact not only in political but
in a Business Dimension as well. Referring to the moscow project. Because there is no bigger warranty in any project than the content of, in parentheses, the president of russia. Thats interesting because it appears cohen was approached in november of 2015, which was quite early on in the campaign, you would know this better than i, quite early on in the campaign, that there was somebody in the russian government, somebody well known, well trusted in russia that suggested a political synergy as well as a businey business siny. Cohen provided useful
information in his contacts. Fourth cohen described the circumstances of preparing and circulating his response to the congressional inquiries while continuing to accept responsibility for the false statements contained within it. The conclusion said that the defendants crime was serious, remember this is only referring to his lie to congress. The defendants crime was serious in terms of the underlying conduct and its affect on multiple government investigations, the sentence imposed should reflect the fact that lying to federal investigators has consequences, especially where defendant lied about critical facts. However the Special Counsels office notes the defendant, whos Michael Cohen, of course, has made substantial and significant efforts to remediate his contact and assist the Special Counsel. So the Special Counsel asks that you give due consideration to Michael Cohens efforts set
forth above, and it would be appropriate to allow the defendant to serve any sentence imposed in this case concurrently with the sentence imposed in his other case. What theyre talking about, chuck, if hes going to serve a period, im going to propose a hypothetical or example, say he gets sentenced to four years in prison for the new york, say hes given two months for lying to congress, that he serves those two months at the same time. In other words hes not going to do four years in the new york case and another two months than what, in laymans terms is what it means. Its clear that cohen did provide some information about efforts or contacts made by People Associated with russia and we need more details about that, but were not getting any more from this document. I will note there are no redactions that i have found in the seven page filing by the Special Counsels office. In either document. I want to go big picture here before i go to the legal back and forths here. Information that weve gotten in both of these filings. The first filing, which is the Southern District of new york, for what its worth, this is basically the heart of this investigation is the Stormy Daniels, Karen Mcdougal payments the women that allegedly had affairs with the president when he was a private citizen and the attempts to buy them off, cover them up. In the filing it says he acted in coordination with and at the direction of individual 1, which we know is the president , as a result of cohens actions, neither woman spoke to the press prior to the election. Thats not an insignificant finding here, tom, is it not . Yeah, it is. Its more explicitly saying what was in the criminal information, and what Michael Cohen allocuted
in court in august of this year. Saying i did all these payments at the direction of the president. He stated that back then but i think it got a little bit lost because it wasnt quite explicit in the criminal information in the court paperwork that he pled guilty to at the time. Today i know that exact paragraph that youre referencing. It draws the line. Cohen is saying here, hey, those payments to the two women, the ones im in trouble for now, that i pled guilty to, that i may go to jail now, the president told me to do that. I think its important here chuck to say, for folks who may be watching us, saying isnt the president on the hook for some c