Well, i feel badly for general flynn. I feel very badly. Hes led a very strong life. The latest on all things russia. Washington post reporter contributor, the one who broke the trump flynn Legal Defense story and Garrett Haake with us as well remains to my envy in sunny palm beach where the president is on vacation. How worried is the white house about what Michael Flynn may say to Robert Mueller and his team . Well, any good lawyer will be preparing for the worst. My sources inside the white house, seems to me the president s lawyers feel very confident theres no evidence, no indication of any criminal conspiracy and that Michael Flynn does not have any information that would incriminate the president. However, given that, despite that confidence, theres also just a general concern that if Michael Flynn as part of his Cooperation Agreement might provide information that accuses a senior trump official or even the president himself of something thats untoward, that there are ways in which you could challenge the credibility of the president s former National Security adviser. After all, he has admitted in one felony count to lying to the fbi, in two instances. That raises questions about his credibility. How standard is this, as you talk to Defense Attorneys how cases like these often play out. Is this right out of the main playbook . Yes. You put it beautifully. As many people have said to me, this is textbook. This is, you know, Defense Strategy 101. The real in a way this is really an if, a plan b. , because we dont know what Michael Flynn is going to testify to. We only know that as of december 1, he had a very lenient favorable Cooperation Agreement with special counsel bob mueller. Despite the possibility of being charged with multiple counts and also the possibility of his son facing legal exposure. He only, mr. Flynn, only received one count that he had to plead guilty to. So that implies, and indicates, suggests, that Michael Flynn has something of value, something substantive to provide the special counsel, and its raised a lot of questions across the country and the its raised a lot of questions inside the white house. Again that group of lawyers for the president feel very confident that theres no hard evidence that would incriminate the president , and they feel similarly confident about other Senior Administration officials. That its still an open question. And i want to read a line from carols piece, exactly what flynn might offer remains a mistress. What are folks in florida with you, with the president , saying about whats unfolded here and about what came out in this piece . Reporter well, the official word from the white house on this came from the president s outside counsel john dowd who called it nonsense and fake news, but brings up the point, being accused of something down the line by someone who at mitted to being a liar, calling them a liar is not exactly a complicated Defense Strategy. The white house is pushing back hard against this, and flynn is a character who really through the campaign, through the transition and through the early months of the Trump White House, there was no one closer to this president , who didnt have the last name trump. He was intimately involved in National Security, strategy, campaignrelated stuff. On the plane constantly and, again, as the first National Security advisers, he helped set up the trump National Security apparatus at the white house in its initial form. So theres every reason to think if theres something to be known about the president as tied to russia, the mandate of the russia investigation, Michael Flynn is probably the man to know it and i think thats the reason the white house is pushing back aggressively against this story, which if youre sitting around in your house in virginia or d. C. And Michael Flynn reading this, you have to wonder whats going through this mind. This president he sacrificed quite a bit for is preparing to steamroll him and impugn his character as ay whoer. And questions about whether or not he might consider pardoning Michael Flynn. Reading a tweet that Michael Flynns brother joseph fired off to the president of the United States. Pr mr. President , i personally believe a pardon is due due to the crimes he pled guilty to. I ask quick action on this and keep up the good work. On the record, the white house routinely says they dont talk about pardons. Its not part of the conversation, but the president has said hes not considering it yet. He uses these qualifying languages when talking about pardons. Look in context. You could see it could be a carrot and stick approach for Michael Flynn. The carrot being the possibility of a pardon which hasnt been foreclosed if Michael Flynn were to keep his conversations with Robert Mueller focused on Michael Flynn and the stick approach, which is, if his conversations are about donald trump or members of his family, then the white house could conceivably be using its full weight to talk about him as a liar and a bad person and everything else. All of those things definitely fit together, but no one at the white house has closed the door on the possibility of a pardon for Michael Flynn somewhere down the line. Garrett, thanks. Garrett haake in West Palm Beach at nbc and carol, thanks for joining us from the Washington Post as well. Thank you. President trumps legal Team Continues to push the narrative that the investigation is wrapping up. A new report from yahoo news says muellers team is going after new leads and collecting a mountain of new evidence including bank records and thousands of emails from the Trump Campaign and trump transition. That same report says, in the last few weeks his prosecutors have begun questioning Republican National staffers about the Party Digital operation that worked with the Trump Campaign to target voters in key swing states. Joining me to talk about all of this, the assistant attorney general under nixon and ford administrations and his son works in the Trump Administration on asia policjul. Charting out what Robert Mueller might be looking at. Where do things stand with his investigation heading into 2018, do you think . I think that you know, by this point the Trump White House had hoped that by this point the investigation would have wrapped up, and that he would have been cleared. Instead the investigation is still going full steam, dough spi despite the republicans and not only that, people who were in trumps inner circle have either pled guilt y or are under indictment. Things arent looking good for the white house. And the mentioning the effort to discredit Robert Mueller. Similar attempt of the Deputy Director of the fbi. Read something from the press. Andrew mccabe is racing the clock to retire with full benefits, 90 days to go. Indicating he plans to retire when eligible full pension benefits from the fbi. What do you make of these attacks . Yes, on individuals, also on institutions . You were a Civil Servant during two white houses and two administrations. What do you make on the effect its having on these institut n institutions and nonpartisan institutions in washington, d. C. . Not much. They have a longstanding reputation of independence, i dont think it has a big impact on them and i dont think muellers office is subjected to or vulnerable to moat st of the attacks or many of them. The idea it would be wrapped up soon, thats fannifuy f fancifu. You cant name a prosecution case that got wrapped up in three, four, six months. It just doesnt happen. Now going beyond collusion into financial records, that means its going to go on. Now, next summer, bob mueller has a problem. Its a little of the comey problem, because theres an election. If the house and senate fall, theres an impeachment problem. If they dont, there isnt. He doesnt want to have an october surprise, im assuming. Right . Doesnt want to say in october im going to throw the election with this big, broad piece of news. Hes either got to wrap it up this summer or go into total quiettude, my opinion, until after the election so he doesnt seem to be throwing the election in one way or the other. Julie, let me ask about this vein were seeing increasingly. Data. Following the money and 23 following the data over these last two years. And interviews by the house intelligence committee. Bob mueller looking into this data operation on the Trump Campaign and the house issuing an invitation to come testify. How rich is that vein . Well, i think its seeking to answer a question that a lot of russia watchers had, which is how did the russians suddenly get so sophisticated about the american electoral system . Which they dont have is a very good grasp of, even at the highest leveling of the russian government . The thing is that other people really doubt that Cambridge Analytica had much to do with it and in this day and age, things are online, if you really wanted to know which districts to be interested in or target, go online and read any number of publications about which states, districts and counties were in play. It could be a potentially rich vein or turn up nothing but is definitely worth exploring. The other thing i wanted to add about the Mueller Investigation and attacks on muellers credibility, they might not derail the investigation itself. In fact, probably wont, but what the gop is trying to do ahead of the elections is lay the groundwork for casting doubt on whatever indictments or conclusions that Robert Mueller comes up with. From where you sit in washington, d. C. , has this grown here over the last few weeks . As i saw it, confined to the fringes for a while. Now the president is weighing in on it more and more. Does thatgaining steam . Gaining steam in the sense of more people are picking up on it and bob mueller involved in these investigations . Yes. I think its laying the groundwork for the future. Whenever mueller does wrap up his investigation, whether he issues indictments or some kind of are concluding report, its going to, you know, for people who support the president and the Republican Party to doubt any of these conclusions as politically motivated. And end with you here. What we talked about with carol top of the show. Michael flynn through all of this, a cooperating witness, and i wonder what you make of the position hes in and how he might be used by bob mueller assess this Investigation Continues . Its one thing if the goal is to get him to testify on the stand. Another if there to lead investigators down a certain path, perhaps crabberate . Something t corroborate . How do you see this . Carol had it right, it is, if you dont know much, you cant cut a deal. Little or nothing to give to bob mueller or a prosecutor. Thats the the irony hes faced with. The converse of that is how the president s lawyers see it. If he doesnt have something important, you could argue, thats why they indicted him. Why indict somebody you want to use as an important witness . And indict them for lying . Not even for a substantive crime but lying. Youve just discredited your best witness, if that person has a lot to say. On the other hand it is totally normal for the lawyers for the person whos a target, in this case the president , maybe a target. We dont know that. Assume that for the moment. Totally normal to send a signal, you better be very careful to stick to the careful truth. Exact truth. If you exaggerate or lie about something or induced to lie about something well coming down hard on you. First of that, that signal has already been sent privately. To the lawyer for sure. This is a public signal to say the same thing. Thanks to you both, joining me from washington, d. C. One of the biggest threats President Trump will face in his second year is north korea. Earlier he tweeted about reports china is still secretly shipping oil to north korea writing on twitter there will never be a friendly solution to the north korea problem if this continues to happen. Secretary of state Rex Tillerson has written an oped published in the New York Times. He details threats against the u. S. North korea is at the top of that list. And hans nichols joins me. I want to ask about the president s tweet, sent another one focused on north korea as well. Front and the center to recollects tillerson . Two tweets from the president. One more bellicose than the other. The first you showed blaming chine in for illegal Oil Transfers at sea, back in february, they initially made the allegation. Provided satellite imagery cutting off north koreas fuel supply, petroleum products, its so crucial to any sort of sanction regime and we heard from President Trump today, a tweet talking basically a highlight reel of things he and others have said on north korea. At that point he was strongly suggesting that there could be military action. He was going back to an 18yearold clip he made on a. M. Meet the pris. Not going after north korea, when will you do it . Want to do something now . You better do it now. Bellicose language from the president quoting himself 18 years ago. The question at the defense department, the state department, do the president s tweets constitute policy or diplomacy . Is it part of his official signaling or part of his trying to brow beat others into certain positions . A big question we have. Frankly, at the year of 2017, darcht david, we do not have san answer. Looking at the tweets in contrast to the New York Times from the secretary of state, read one quotation here about the administrations tact. A door to dialogue remains open but weve made it clear the regime must earn its way back tolt negotiating table until the nuclearization occurs the pressure will continue. What is that vision of dialogue with north korea look like, how would north korea get the door open at this point . Stop testing. It wouldnt be a freeze. They dont freed to technically say freeze just a pause in testing. Of course we had basically a twomonth pause in testing and you saw no impetus or Movement Towards negotiations. Now they have more recent testss ewhat they do here coming up with the olympic games. I think you know, a little back and forth when tillerson said were willing to talk, any time, any point and no preconditions. Thats true and not true. The precondition, they stop testing. Thats always been clear from the state department and the department of defense for there to be negotiations, any talk, you have to have some sort of pause on the north korean side. Of course, just over the last 48 hours you had russia intervening saying they would host some of these conversations, would belong a mediator between the north and south and the u. S. As well. So there is a lot going on here. With the president s tweet i caution, starting back in june, positive about china, then negative. Then positive again. Hes really zigged and zagged on twitter whether or not he thinks china needs to be part of the solution, can be part of the solution or indeed wants to be part of the solution, and weve gotten different answers from the president over twitter over the last year on that. Great to speak with you. Hans nichols from washington, d. C. And officially certified doug jones as the winner of last month the special election in alabama, that comes after a judge rejected roy moores lastminute real complaint intended to block the election. He said i am looking forward to going to work for the people of alabama in the new year. I said on election night, this mark as new victory for the state and our nation and be an independent voice to find Common Ground on both sides of the aisle to get washington back on track and fight to make our country a better place for all. Doug jones expected to be sworn in when the Senate Returns in the new year. And nbc news is told moore is system not conceding that race. If you own property, listen up. A new tax bill means you could save money if you prepay taxes by midnight, december 31st. Up next, whether you should or shouldnt pay early. Also coming up, brand new reporting on Police Officers killed in the line of duty. The numbers may surprise you. Take a look at the stats, next. Im on top of the world, hey. Its your last chance of the year to get our best offer of the year zero percent financing for seventytwo months, plus an extra onethousand cash back across a full lineup of ford cars, trucks and suvs. So hurry and save big on americas bestselling brand. 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