covid-19, the president cited an estimate that if the federal government had done nothing, 2.2 million people could have died. he then said if 100,000 to 200,000 americans died, it would mean that the federal government did a good job. >> when i heard the number today, first time i've heard that number, because i've been asking the same question as some people have been asking, i felt even better about what we did last week with the 2.2 trillion dlrsz, because you're talking about a potential of up to 2.2 million, and some people say it could be higher than that, so you're talking about 2.2 million deaths, 2.2 million people, from this. and so if we can hold that down, as we're saying to 100,000, it's a horrible number, maybe even less, but to 100,000, so we have between 100 and 200,000, we all together have done a very good job. >> that's just a lie from the president of the united states, it is not possible that he just heard that number today, that number was published by imperial college in mid march where it said be a absence of action could lead to 2.2 million deaths in america, it has been a number that was cited by birx, so it is not possible that the president heard it for the first time today. he said there are a lot of people who said we shouldn't do anything, ride it, ride it like a cowboy, there was nobody, of a right mind, saying we shouldn't do anything about coronavirus, except donald trump, who up to a month ago, yesterday, was saying it's going to go away. he said we have 15 cases. they're going to go to zero. we've got it under control. so that is the kind of nonsense, the kind of lies that the president does, when he has these press conferences. now there are a number of people, a number of you who rightfully feel that they don't want to hear these lies, that it is dangerous to people to hear them. and while will is some good debate to be had as to whether or not we should be covering these things, i want to give you mechanics how it is covered, it is not just us and a camera and donald trump, as you saw today it was rose garden, sometimes in the briefing room but today outside and it was reporters and one of the reporter, you have seen her a lot on our air, the white house correspondent, for pbs news hour, an msnbc political contributor, and i just have to say, because i know you well, i know that you have zero interest in being part of this story. you are a reporter there to get the story from other people. but today, you became a bit of a part of the story, and it's an important piece of the story to explain why we have those reporters there, and why they do what they do, so i want to play for our viewers an exchange you had with the president about his claim that new york doesn't need the 30,000 ventilators that governor andrew cuomo has called for. let's listen together. >> you said repeatedly that you think that some of the equipment that governors are requesting, they don't actually need, you said new york might need -- >> i didn't say that. i didn't say that. >> you said it on sean hannity's fox news. you said -- >> why don't you people act, let me ask you this. why don't you act in a little more positive, it's always trying to get you, get you. and you know what, that's why nobody trusts the media anymore. >> my question to you -- >> you didn't hear me. that's why you used to be work for the times and now you work for somebody else. let me tell you something. be nice. don't be threatening. >> mr. president, my question. >> don't be threatening, be nice. when journalists get up, and you're a fine journalist, when journalists are asking questions that are so threatening. >> i was quoting you directly from sean hannity. >> take a look at my interview. if there is something wrong, we have to get to the bottom of it. when i hear face masks, go from 10,000 to 300,000 and they constantly need more, and the biggest man in the business is shocked, he knows all about the virus, by the way, he's not surprised by that, he knows all about it, he shouldn't be surprised, he should say well, that's standard, because this is really a very tough disease, this is really a very tough virus. >> go ahead. >> my second question, mr. president. >> thank you very much. >> mr. president, my second question. >> please, please. that's enough. that's enough. that's not fair to your other reporters. >> all right. and there you see, you had to give up your mic to somebody. this is not new for you. it's not the first time the president has come at you. >> it's not new. and i think that today was just an underscoring of the fact that the president was really upset by the fact that he had to back dallas track on the misleading claims he has been making, a month ago he was telling people these cases were go away and disappear and now we are actually probably not going to get back and up and running until maybe june so we have been telling people, the country, that churches should be packed by easter sunday and today he had to admit, i had to extend my guidelines to april 30th and my question about the fact that he has been saying repeatedly that governors don't need the medical equipment that they're requests, and new york doesn't need the ventilators, and the president lashed out and not just the people who saw me, stay focused, be steady and continue to do the job that you're there to do, and for me it is to be a journalist and hold presidents accountable and that's what i did today. >> so there is more to the story. that's the ironic part. you tried to get a second in. and as an economic journalist your second question was one after my own heart, the president didn't let you do that. so then jeremy dimon got a question, a cnn white house reporter, he took the mic and he gave it to you. let me show, i think we've got that. we can show our viewers. >> new york is a bigger deal, but it's going to go also. but i have a feeling that a lot of the -- >> all right, i don't have that particular one, but that's what happened. jeremy gave you the mic so you could ask your second question. did that go better than the first round? >> it went a bit better than the first round which was the first time the president lashed out at me and took it personally that i was trying to hold him accountable by quoting his own words back to him. in this case of course i had to say thank you to jeremy of cnn for giving me the opportunity to ask my second question. we know now that covering president trump is sometimes like a team sport, we have to have each other's back, in the press corps and jeremy had my back today so i appreciate. that my second question was, what do you make of this idea that the president is saying over and over again that the economic impact of this, more people might die because of the economic impact than the virus itself and which health professionals are telling you that, and i asked dr. fauci if he could weigh in and the president didn't directly answer me and instead repeated there would be mental health issues with the coronavirus but he didn't say health care officials are telling me more people are going to commit suicide if they are forced to go back to work, or if they can't go back to work, than people who actually have the virus. so there is no actual evidence of what the president is saying in that regard is true. >> thank you for doing what you do, as always. a pbs news hour white house correspondent, thank you for being with us. much of the focus surrounding this threat of covid-19 is currently on the areas that have already been hit hard, like new york city and new orleans but there are, there are other areas of the country that are projects dire statistics, including the state of colorado. i'm going to ask my control room if they've got that map of the country and the places that have been hit hard. the office of colorado's governor released data this week estimating that each person in colorado, take a look at, that that is the map of the country, obviously that northeast corner, you see, new york is very heavily hit and florida and the south and you can see detroit, chicago, seattle, los angeles, southern california, new orleans, but start looking around the middle of the country and start looking at colorado. colorado, the disease is spreading for each person to as many as four people. joining me now is the colorado governor. he is standing by. governor, thank you for being with us. this is of course a major concern, right? we know that infectious diseases hit the cities first, they have the cities that the biggest port, the biggest airports and the biggest number of people coming and going but the slow roll is headed to other places, and colorado gives us sort of a real sense of the fact that it's different from the major centers that this virus has hit so far. >> the world health organization has declared this a pandemic, and i don't think there is any place on the globe that you can go to escape. it we have visitors from all over the world that come to our high country, our world class ski resorts like vail and aspen and with them they brought the virus and many were was denver metro area that spoke weekends in those areas and then brought it down. we have 2300 confirmed cases today in colorado. but because of the lack of testing we estimate that there are many thousand more that are undiagnosed and likely have covid-19 in colorado as well. >> i want to do something, the president talked about how he had never heard about this imperial study that said that 2.2 million people would die, they did nothing, it has been around since the middle of march, but you have done something similar in colorado. you've estimated deaths by june 1st, without social distancing. and according to that, there could be 33,200. 40 prl social distancing, 26,000. and 50%, 19,000 and 60% social distancing you're still predicting that you could have more than 11,500 deaths by june 1st in colorado. i guess your point here is to tell people to take this seriously. >> it is. and it also shows why, for instance, closing the bars and restaurants for inhouse visits wasn't enough. you can get to about 50% social distancing through that. as you saw in the projections from our state epidemiologists. we still lost tens of thousands of lives. we, and probably the rest of the country, need to be in that 70 to 80% social distancing range and which is why you are seeing states like ours and others making sure people don't go into work unless they're part of the essential work force to keep the country going. >> and you're talking about everybody home who doesn't have to be home to keep society functioning. >> and it is individual's decisions to simply go out less. it's stay at home. so it simply means, if you normally go out to three or four times a day, get it down to one. walk your dog, your neighborhood, do it less, only go out when you need to. when going out to the store for instance to pick something up, do i need to go twice a week or once a week? these are the kind of individual responsibility questions that will determine the trajectory of this virus not just here in colorado but in the united states and the world. people need to do everything they can to stay at home and when they go out, stay with their small group of who they live, with family, house mates and try not to interact with others keeping them at distances of six to eight feet at all times. >> the president said that had nothing been done there would be 2.2 million deaths in the united states and when he was asked who saiding in should be done, he said we had a lot of people who said we shouldn't do anything, ride it like a cowboy is, there anybody telling you that, let it burn itself out and see what it goes. >> the numbers would track to the worst case scenarios in colorado where if we did anything we would be talking tens of thousands, 30,000, 40,000 lives. thankfully we're not doing something. the nation is doing something. most states are doing something. so we hope to reduce. that and make sure we are going to go through our plans and we already have the army corps of engineers on the ground building additional hospital space, and ex panning our capacity to serve, expanding our capacity to serve people, because we know that, well, some people will lose their lives tragically with covid-19, many can be saved of the one in ten or so that actually need medical support to help them make it through it. >> governor, we're with you in this. we hope you have the greatest success. we want all of those estimates to be wrong but we can't allow us to hope that they are wrong. governor jared polis of colorado, thank you. we just received a statement from joe biden, presidential candidate, former vice president of the united states, it reads in part, in face of its failure to ensure, talking about donald trump, to ensure that we are able to produce and distribute desperately-needed equipment, the president stood in front of the american people and suggested that harsuggest that health care workers were not being honest about the current supply of act. and i have talked about the president using the defense production act, to produce equipment including masks. the president has the power and the responsibility to end the shortage of masks. instead of making it happen, he is blaming and accusing the doctors and nurses and health care workers and hospitals. joe biden goes on to say, i'm issuing this challenge to donald trump. in order to avoid an escalation of the public health crisis we are facing, he must use the defense production act within the next 48 hours, to direct the production and distribution of respirator marches, gloves, protective face shields and gowns to fill every supply request made by a governor to the federal government and do the same with respect to ventilators. he may think the risk would be having too many. that would be a wonderful problem to have. that is in part the joe biden statement that has just been sent to us in regard to what happened today. i want to talk more about the issues facing our state, and we have dr. ben gupta, an msnbc medical contributor. also joined by my old friend dr. irwin redletter director of columbia university's national center for disaster preparedness and an msnbc health policy analyst. irwin, i will start with you. it's sort of flabbergastingwith insignificant, we as journalists are meant to take this kind of nonsense but the idea that this imperial study came out in march, suggested he had not heard of it before and had he not done anything 2.2 million americans would die and he was told by people to do nothing and ride it like a cowboy. irwin, this is nonsensical but it costs people their lives when the president comes up with stuff like this. >> yes, so it is hard to know what to react to, you know, just against the accusation that the governors are somehow misleading the country by what's needed. it's the governor, i mean it's the president department of health and human services that up to two weeks ago was saying that the country would knee three billion, with a b, three billion, with a b, face masks for the stration of this pandemic. there is so much of what the president said and the implications. listen, i'm very glad about the announcement that abbott has created a rapid test that will be very important, and we're so far behind, ali, we should have had this ability to do mass testing months ago. we're so far behind the eight ball in terms of having the supplies we need for our hospitals and we literally put the lives on the line of millions of health care workers from doctors to nurses to the aids to those who work in the icus and so on. so it's really breath-taking, and i don't know what the plan was, in terms of having dr. fauci come out and say that, you know, we're probably going to have 100,000 to 200,000. that's not even the maximum number that has been estimated. in fact, the department of health and human services over a year ago did a study, did a practice run, predicting a major pandemic, and virtually everything they said, a long time ago, was done in this administration, and they're acting as if they never heard of such a thing. it's hard to know where to begin to really understand that the death of misinformation, the depth of misinformation and self aggrandizing the white house is doing, but whatever it, i think we have to for the moment forget the bigones and let's move forward and try to get as much done as possible. one other thing i should say, anybody who thinks that we are going to be out of this by the end of april, and needs to have a second look at what the data is telling us. it's not going to happen. and i don't think the president should be putting out even dates like that. it makes people think we're talking, many people are talking three, four, five months of trying to endure as much of a national policy of sheltering in place as we possibly can. >> ben gupta, you and i had a very, very helpful talk the other day about ventilators and the detail that goes into them. the president continues to resist the defense production act in getting these made. i understand they're complicated. he keeps saying they're more complicated than cars, that is empirically not true. the car has 30,000 parts on average sourced from all over the world, the vent later has about 1500 feets sourced from all over the world, but the fact is in world war ii we turned around factories in two weeks to manufacture things. but putting this aside, you're welcome to answer this, but mask, gloves, other protective equipment, we can be using a national effort to manufacture those kind of things that we need right now, can he would not? >> ali, i'm going to be restating what i've been restating over and over and over again, as others have done multiple times as well, which is we're way behind. we're far behind on the eight ball here. and even though, you know, we're projecting out, and this is going to be a peak outbreak, in the middle of april, and there isn't enough ppe for physicians, for nurses, my respiratory therapists and icus to last, to sustain us all, by mid april, when icu surge capacity will be well exceeded and ventilator surges will come to the fore and to answer your question, of course, we should have the defense production act already revved up and already producing these materials, in anticipation of a worsening outbreak. i will say going back to the ventilators, you know, we're having real conversations, across the country, and hospital leaders are having real conversations about rationing ventilators thoochlt es are actually happening. any time you hear the white house press briefing it makes us feel in the message community that we're overreacting but these are realities that are happening, plans that are being put in place, rationing access to ventilators is happening right now in the united states. let's wrestle with that. "the new york times" has done a lot of reporting on splitting ventilator usage amongst multiple patients. by the way, as a pull monologist we're not traded medically or emotionally frankly to manage two patients, much less four, on one ventilator. i can say this two nights ago. patients require individual care on a ventilator. they require maximum support but it's unique to the individuals. and these realities need to be wrestled with, instead of just completely glossed over. >> vin, just tell me, what's the most urgent need here? because you're right, you put your finger on, this the president gives the impression that everybody who says we need more ventilators is overreacting to the need. he said we've got them, we don't want to send them to all place because what happens if there is a surge somewhere else and vacillating we have enough and manage where they go and versus we don't have enough and we don't need that many. >> we don't need the cadillac ventilator. we don't need the $40,000 ventilator that the president is referring to and he's right, these are sophisticated machines. and as a former military officer, we had a 731 ventilator, perfectly fine, a battery powered ventilator, can sustain a patient for 12 to 16 hours on one battery, it's a tall briefcase. it's tall. let's produce those en masse. we can get 30,000 of those up and running in the states that are needed. that's what we need. we need to get by. increase the national stockpile. and let's worry about the big items down the road and get a bung bunch of portable ventilators. the technology already exists. let's ramp up the production of something like that. that seems like the lowest hanging fruit. >> there thanks to both of you, dr. vin gupta, irwin led better. thank you. when we continue, congressman bobby scott joins me and we will take a deeper look at the economy as well along with the credit unions in the united states. we'll be right back. with rheumatoid arthritis. because there are options. like an "unjection™". xeljanz xr, a once-daily pill for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well enough. xeljanz xr can reduce pain, swelling and further joint damage, even without methotrexate. xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections like tb; don't start xeljanz if you have an infection. taking a higher than recommended dose of xeljanz for ra can increase risk of death. serious, sometimes fatal infections, cancers including lymphoma, and blood clots have happened. as have tears in the stomach or intestines, serious allergic reactions, and changes in lab results. tell your doctor if you've been somewhere fungal infections are common, or if you've had tb, hepatitis b or c, or are prone to infections. needles. fine for some. but for you, one pill a day may provide symptom relief. ask your doctor about xeljanz xr. an "unjection™". when they bundle home and auto with progressive. wow, that's... and now the progressive commercial halftime show, featuring smash mouth. ♪ hey now, you're an all star ♪ get your game on, go play thank you! goodnight! [ cheers and applause ] now enjoy the second half of the commercial! even renters can bundle and save! where did that come from? the kitchen. it was halftime. where did that come from? shbecause xfinity mobilehen ygives you more flexible data.. you can choose to share data between lines, mix with unlimited, or switch it up at any time. all on the most reliable wireless network. which means you can save money without compromising on coverage. get more flexible data, the most reliable network, and more savings. plus, get $300 off when you buy a new samsung galaxy s20 ultra. that's simple. easy. awesome. go to xfinitymobile.com today. when we came on the air, this time last week, it was not at all clear that congress would pass a massive stimulus to keep the american economy afloat. and then they did. the $2 trillion includes $250 million to small businesses and for many it is a down payment on the massive infusions of cash that will be needed this summer. congressman bobby scott joins us now. thank you for being with us. this is one of those situations where businesses, we learned this with the government shutdown, the average american doesn't have that much money extra sitting around for contingency, it would be terrific if they had six months or nine months, like the personal finance books tell you, but that's not the reality of life. it's not the reality for small businesses, either. they don't have contingency funding for months and months of closure and staff payroll. so tell me where you think we are with this bill, versus where you think we're going to need to be and how we're going to get there. >> well, we've got a lot already, we've been giving assistance to state and local governments, small businesses, big businesses, airports, housing, as chair of the ed quayle cation and labor committee, i'm deleted to see that we did something for k-12 and colleges. colleges are suffering. colleges sent everybody home. no revenue coming in. they are trying to keep up their faculty and everything else. the main benefit of the legislation is the money we send directly to families, $3400 for a family of four, and a significant increase in unemployment compensation. one of the things that was pointed out, that some might actually make more on unemployment compensation with of the a week than working but federal minimum wage, which hasn't gone up in a decade, we need to increase the minimum wage. but there is unfortunately a lack of urgency that's going on, and i think some of your guests have pointed out how difficult of a situation we're in, there is an old addage, if you don't change directions you're going to end up where you're headed, a week ago we had 200 and then 200 and then ten days from now 20,000 and ten days from that 200,000 and by the end of next month, we will be in the millions, and we have to change directions, and we have to take it seriously. when everything, we are trying to put a happy face on stuff, people don't take it seriously. >> yes. >> liberty university, brought the students back. they're not taking it seriously. >> that's a major issue. one of the things you're contending with and a lot of people want to contend with is because we're putting so much money into solving this necessary, this problem that we need to solve, there are a lot of people saying why don't we change where the car is headed with respect to wage, with respect to paid leave, with respect to insurance company, insurance coverage for health care, there are a lot of people saying this might be the moment to make directional change in the way prosperity is dealt with in america because this is laying bare the degree to which people hang on to their prosperity by a thread. >> there is a lot that we can do long range but we're in a crisis now. several things we need to do. we need to establish osha regulations to fight for people who are exposed to infectious disease. there has been an osha regulation floating around, potential regulation, floating around for a decade, it's ready go, all we have to do is promulgate it and this administration will move on it. you've got health care workers without an enforceable osha regulation. you've got first responders, we have tsa agents, people exposed to infectious disease, that need protection. we need to expand the family and medical leave. by the time the bill left the house, by the time we enacted the bill, the family part of family leave was eliminated. and we provided free vaccines, and free testing, but we need to make sure that people get free treatment. these, if you get the disease, and end up in the hospital, you're talking about these ventilators, people are going to be surprised as how big those bills are going to be. for those that get hit with that, the average family is going to be bankrupt, unless we provide significant support for that. as chair of the education on labor committee and i'm interested in making sure we support our education, trying to teach children, to not come into school, that is obviously a challenge, particularly for a special ed student, the student loans was a problem, that was a problem before this occurred, it is even more of a problem now, as people are losing their paychecks. >> congressman, thanks for joining us. congressman bobby scott. joining me is austan goolsbee, an economist and professor of economics at the university of chicago and an economic adviser to president obama and you and i, when we talk, we typically talk about the economy, and we will do that today. but i have to say, you're a guy who worked in the white house. and i think there are a lot of americans who are just stunned, day after day, by the fact that this is a white house in crisis. you worked at a white house in crisis when we had the economic crisis, and the fact that people like yamish and the rest of us have to constantly fact check and prove and disprove what's being said, to the congressman's point, when you paint a happy face on things, a lot of people don't take it seriously. this thing is moving across the country. including to where you are in chicago. >> 100%. we're having a real outbreak. and there's a fear that chicago, new orleans, detroit, a number of other large cities, are going to be experiencing exactly what new york city is experiencing now, and you'll remember, when we talked in the financial crisis, paul volker, may he rest in peace, his advice always was, when a crisis comes the only asset you have is your credibility and every day, we've got the president getting up saying falsehoods sometimes and others outrageous insinuations and accusations. in the press conference, how are he would not making more of the fact that he basically accused medical workers of stealing masks and other protective equipment and selling it. and he was saying that should be investigated. i mean it was outrageous and insane. >> but to -- >> we need to stop that. >> he didn't, he didn't provide any guidance, any evidence, he just sort of said, you should look into this, you should look into it, this idea that someone is doing it, i've got information but i'm not going to give it to you, he has the authority, if someone is stealing masks and reselling them, the federal government, bill barr said if anyone is gouging or taking advantage, we will come for it. that is the kind of nonsensical stuff that misdirects people when in fact he should be giving proper guidance what happens next. >> yes, 100%. and not just people's health, that thousands of people will die, it also matters for the economy. because unless we get a handle on the spread of this virus, the economy cannot come back. all of the stimulus in the world will not work, if we cannot get a handle on the spread of this virus. and we have to have, look, we need the president to succeed here. we can't, this is beyond just a political game. we need the president to step up and grow into the job. and start telling us factual information, that is practical, that people can use, not encouraging people to do things that are going to spread the disease more. and not making up things so that, now some people are going to start suspecting their medical providers of stealing medical equipment. i mean it's crazy. >> let's talk about the $2 trillion stimulus bill. some of the highlights of it. $1200, which will go to most adult, $500 per child, and unemployment insurance expanded, $600 a week, so sort of max out or double what people get on unemployment for four months, $100 billion for hospitals. $150 billion for state and local governments. $350 billion for small businesses. $500 billion for corporations. as we learned from the last time around, would he got some conditions on these things about it not going to buy back, stock buybacks and executive compensation. do you think this looks right for what we were able to achieve? >> mostly, look, i especially like the stuff that is going to go to individuals and to small businesses, if they can get it out the door to, to prefent what we hope is a short term problem to moves into a long term sol cency issue. with 500 billion in big business, i got a little bit of qualities, there is 200 and plus billion of additional corporate tax cuts. we gave, for example, it's a substantial tax incentives for restaurants and retailers to expand their physical facilities. okay. is that really what we should be doing right now? should he would not have directed large amounts of the money to the expanding the test capacity and the production of tests that we can make hundreds of millions of tests, instead of hundreds of thousands of tests? i think we are going to have a chance to come back and look at this, but as i used to say about the rescues during the financial crisis, if you're running into a burning hotel, and you're throwing kids out the windows down into the pools to save their lives, that's not the moment to judge it like it's an olympic diving contest. look, there are certain quibbles that you can have with unemployment insurance, using that as a vehicle, we're trying to get the money out as rapidly as possible. in a way that people can keep food on the table. and not go bankrupt. and so i think on that front, the first order is good. >> the president floated something and i want to just ask you about this, last year in the tax changes, people stopped being able to deduct certain food and entertainment expenses, usually you could deduct 50% of your food and entertainment expenses. the president talked about undoing that, making it allowed to be deductible again so companies i guess once we open up again, will encourage their employees to eat at restaurants. sounds interesting. and it sounds like it would benefit some of his own businesses and the president's sort of corporate friends but does that actually make sense for small mom and pop restaurants, that have been put off business, the idea that you create a deduction out of people who can for business purposes use their food and facilities for entertainment and eating? >> i don't, look, help to the restaurant sector, could benefit. and we hope that the 300-plus billion of small business assistance and forgivable loans that we put in the bill, hopefully a lot of that will go to restaurants. totally fail to see, this is kind of what i'm saying of the big corporate tax cuts, i just don't see that that trickle down is what is in the cards right now. >> right. >> if you say, think of the, we want to give tax cuts to people like donald trump before he was president, so that they will go out to eat at restaurants more frequently? >> i then this to me is really approaching bonkers. and the fact that each time the president's asked, well, what should we do, how should we design a system, to keep the economy from going into free-fall, the first place he goes are to his businesses. so he was calling for casinos to get a bailout. i mean really? casinos? at a time like this? casinos would need a bailout? it doesn't make sense to me. and i wish that, and i think there are people in the white house who are thinking harder about it, and we're getting into the, what i call the trump policy protocol, which is let's not spend more time analyzing donald trump's policy ideas than he spent coming up with them. and we're already at the end of this sentence past that. >> you're right. he also wants cruise companies to get a piece of the bailout. there are no cruise companies headquartered in america, they are headquartered in panama, bermuda, their ships are flagged in those places and liberia, but he thinks we should reflag them to get a piece of the action as well. thank you. the pandemic play book. i will hear from a former department of justice official who pushed for pandemic exercises and was over ruled by the trump's white house. want to brain better? unlike ordinary memory supplements neuriva has clinically proven ingredients that fuel 5 indicators of brain 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"politico" is reporting that the administration opted not to use a pandemic playbook created by the national security council, after the ebola outbreak. it's a manual that lays out a step by step plan to ensure proper government response during the next pricrisis. joining me is former fbi director and katrina mulligan former director of response at the justice department and that play book sat on my shelf at the department of justice and in 2018 i joined a group of civil service experts in emergency preparedness to push for a national level exercise on pandemic response and we were overruled by the white house. why, katrina? why would they over rule you? pandemic preparedness is not the kind of thing that the donald trump fake news, lame stream media is trying to target him on so why wouldn't you be able to go ahead with that? >> one of the reasons is the outgoing obama administration as has been reported previously had a senior level pandemic exercise as part of the transition process. and because some people in the white house felt we already did that, we already have explored the pandemic response, we don't have to do anything more. and now, it's interesting to hear the president saying, you know, nobody could have conceived of this, nobody could have thought this was going to happen, because in fact, the outgoing administration handed him an actual play book of exactly this type of thing happening and exactly what to do to respond to it effectively. he just hasn't used that play book. >> and frank, i mean, look, when you look at intelligence failures in the past, it is a combination of a failure of imagination, and a failure to look at the intelligence that's actually there. again, today, we saw an example of donald trump saying for the first time, i heard this number 2.2 million people would have been killed if i didn't take action, that is an absolute lie. we know it is a prove ally. we know dr. birx, who has been advising him has this information, a study published in "the new york times" in the middle of march. this is the same situation. he had intelligence that told him this was going to be a concern, frank. i had guests on my show in january and i have no intelligence, telling me this was going to be a concern. he chose to avoid this. >> those of us who served in the intelligence community knew that this day would eventually come. the day when the president's disdain for and ignorance of intelligence reporting would actually be at our own peril. personally, ali, i thought that might be in the form of ignoring an imminent terrorist attack or imminent cyber attack but it turns out it is worth than that, because we know in early january, he was getting reporting that there was a big problem coming out of china and it had actionable intelligence that needed to be acted on. he has chosen to ignore. it and par for the course. he has chosen to ignore intelligence community reporting that the saudi crown prince was involved in the murder of a journalist from the "washington post" and chosen to ignore that vladimir putin was involved in the presidential campaign in 2016, he is ignoring intelligence that north korea continues to develop a nuclear program and now it is impacting all of us, and he had a pandemic play book on the shelf, it is pandemic for dummies, he refused to pull that off the shelf and we're all suffering from it. >> katrina, it wasn't that long ago, it was highly contagious, and i would say, we executed quite well around ebola, there was a way of, there were protocols around ebola patients and how to deal with things. was the playbook, we use that term in this industry, but it really was directions. >> absolutely. it was directions. it was lessons learned. it was best practices. i mean the basically laid out almost exactly what you would have expected in terms of the order, the sequencing and the importance of certain decisions that have had to be made, during this pandemic. and you know, one of the things that the tabletop exercise that did take place found was that we are not prepared for a pandemic response, the federal government needed to build more muscle memory, it needed to work out kinks, that were well and clearly identified, which is why i along with several other of my colleagues in the preparedness and response community pushed for a national level exercise on pandemics and we were unfortunately overruled by the white house. >> frank, is there any lesson learned now, because, i definitely don't want a play book for the next bad thing that happens come can out of the way we handled this. >> yes, first, lesson number one, pay attention to your intelligence agencies, and experts, when they're telling you something bad is coming your way. number two, let's build our national stockpile up for the next one, but let's also understand that in the midst of all of this intelligence reporting, the president sent almost eight tons of medical supplies to china, to help them. again, ignoring the fact that our national stockpile would be depleted. we've got to get that up to speed. >> and for most of these things, we can. thanks to both of you, katrina mulligan and frank figliuzzi, frank, you're familiar with seeing him on air but you can catch him in a smithsonian channel docu-series. as the coronavirus continues to put more people out of work, the millions people will need to make ends meet and pay the bills and "the wall street journal" a number of banks and firms are starting to toughen the approval standards for loans and small businesses and people may find it harder to get credit just when they most need it. joining me is jim nestle, the ceo of the credit union association and the former director of the office of management and budget under president bush and a former iowa congressman. jim, let's talk about this for a second. this is a harder time than 2008-2009 was with respect to getting loans because a whole lot of people work in the gig economy, in the part-time economy as freelancers and the same thing happened. loan standards got higher. so when people most need money, they might be facing an environment in which they can least get it. >> yes, and it's interesting, because what we've done, we've done a survey of credit unions across the country, over 5,000 credit unions working as cooperative financial institutions, and you know, checking accounts, and the savings accounts, and auto loans, home mortgages and they do these kind of small dollar loans as well and 93% of our credit unions are making adjustments and modifications to their loan products and to their already established loans with credit union members. we've got 100 million credit union members across the country. they are already working out, making modifications, and we have a number of those same credit unions that are already creatively looking at new ways to extend credit during this tough time, when you just had 3.3 million americans file for jobless benefits. so we kind of think of ourselves as the financial first responders during challenges like this. >> mrsa broaderon joins the conversation as well a professor at law sool and two banks of banking and inequality. and the goal is not to come through this crisis more unequal from a financial perspective and economic perspective than going into it and i think fair to say we went into this crisis in america more unequal than we've ever been before. >> absolutely. and usually when there's a crisis like this, it hits the people at the bottom who are the most vulnerable the hardest. there is an old adage, when wall street gets a cold, harlem gets pneumonia. a lot of people who are salaried and vacation homes and the income and the wealth to self quarantine will do so. this is a lot of people. this is 40 to 50% of the population who needs their wage for food and shelter. and these are the people who are going to be hit the worst and the hardest. and small businesses are, their employees are a lot of time, and those businesses will be hit, and i think any time you have a recession, a depression, people recover differently. i mean you still have 80% of the population, that hasn't recovered from the last recession. and this is going to hit them even harder than the last one. >> yes, one of the things we -- >> can i -- >> go ahead. >> i was going to say just before the coronavirus struck, eight out of ten americans were living pay check to paycheck. he had a paycheck. they had a job. now, they're not quite so sure they've got a job and there is a lot of that uncertainty that is permeating the entire economy, clearly. >> and look, mersa, one. things that the certain governors are saying, and the federal government has said, a more controversial on evictions and mortgage procedures and penalties for people who do that but there is a lot of big banks who took a lot of money from taxpayers last time around and much more profitable than they were, have we learned a lesson from 2008-2009, that the trick is to figure out how to keep all of those people going that jim was just talking about and how to keep the people who are just under the line going so they don't fall further and we don't have a yet bigger problem with long term unemployment and long term homelessness and long term working poor. >> no, actually, i don't think we have a way of, we don't have the tools, and the structure to actually do bottom-up support. what we have is federal reserve monetary policy, and even fiscal stimulus. a lot of that is premised on banks being an intermediary, and having the credit come down. and you know, credit unions sometimes do that. small banks can do that. but the bigger banks, a lot of times, those funds, and the stimulus, stays up in their balance sheet. and doesn't ever trickle down. right? we know that trickle down economics doesn't work. but i don't think trickle down monetary policy works. and those are the buttons that we keep pushing. and it's not to say ha we should help those markets and they are essential because you don't want them to lock up but even talking about stimulus checks, $1200 how do you get that money to someone who is unbanked and doesn't have a bank account, how do you get them an actual physical check, six to eight weeks and go it a check casher and pay 10% of the check to use it. so i don't think we have a structure that even understands. >> >> we actually. >> i promise i am going to spend the next week, i'm on at 3:00 every day and explain to people on the edge, who are not banked and didn't file a tax return in 20 2018 and 2019 whose banking information may not be up to date and the address may not be up to date with the government and how to get the check and if you do it right you could get it in three weeks but jim, you pointed out three weeks plus the two weeks we've already been through, is too long for many americans. they're. we'll continue the discussion. that does it for me tonight. coverage picks up tomorrow morning with "morning joe," first look. and join me every day, 3:00 p.m. eastern, monday through friday, on msnbc. have yourself a safe evening. be stronger... with nicorette coated ice mint. layered with flavor. it's the first and only coated nicotine lozenge. for an amazing taste... ...that outlasts your craving. nicorette ice mint. and ask your doctor about biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in certain adults. it's not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to and stay undetectable. that's when the amount of virus is so low it cannot be measured by a lab test. research shows people who take h-i-v treatment every day and get to and stay undetectable can no longer transmit h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide 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advertising. paige, this is carol. i just saw something on tv about you being gone since thursday night. i hope you're all right. oh, my god. oh, my god. >> paige, if you get this, please, please call somebody. everybody's worried about you. everybody's looking for you. please let us know you're okay. >> page hopkins was a woman with a premonition. >> she said she knew something bad was going to happen. a couple days later she was missing. >> we found out she had this second life. >> quite obviously it's dangerous. >> she had been playing a risky game. >> that opened up the door to a multitude of people we needed to start looking at.

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