Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20210112

Morning joe starts right now. Good morning and welcome to morning joe. It is tuesday, january 12th. Along with joe, willie and me, we have former u. S. Senator, now nbc news and msnbc political analy analyst, claire mechanic cast skill. Former assistant director of the Fbi Counterintelligence Division frank joins us this morning. His new book is the fbi way. Inside the bureaus code of excellence. So weve got frank here. Hey, frank, you know i went to law school. A country lawyer. Are we starting this way . I dont understand these strange words you jumble together. I would like to read a couple of federal criminal statutes because i think its a good place to start this show. Because i think with all of the ground noise thats going on, all the questions about who voted what, where, i think were missing the bigger picture. And i want federal authorities to know that the people of the United States of america are going to pressure them every day to hold these traitors, seditionists to the full extent of the law. I understand a lot of people out there call themselves evangelicals that no longer believe in the word of god that now worship false idols. Thats fine. Thats between you and jesus, okay . Thats between you and jesus. But when you storm the capitol, thats between the federal government and you. And we are the people. We are the people. You tried to take over our house. You trashed our house. You beat up our Police Officers. You tried to kill our speaker. You tried to kill our Vice President. You are going to be held accountable. And then maybe when youre in jail for a long time, maybe somebody can slip you a bible and you can start reading the gospels again. And maybe even read some of the Old Testament about what happens to nations when they worship false idols. So with that as a back drop good morning, everyone. Section 2384. She dishes conspiracy. If two or more persons in any state or territory, or in anyplace subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the government of the United States, or to leafy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined not more than 5,000 and imprisoned not more than six years. There are others that were actually updated. I get it. That is a 1948. This says not more than twenty years, or both. Of course incident was updated in 1994. It updated it, frank, to 20 years. And so, froank, you look at the language. Lets put it up one more time. You look at the language, frank, and you tell me how these people who were breaking into the capitol, who are now whimmering and whining as they are being taken off airplanes, they dont understand they have committed treason against the United States of america, they are involved in she dishes conspiracy by force, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States. But, frank, thats the thing. This wasnt just any law. This separated us from every other country in the world. John adams did it first when he voluntarily walked away from the presidency after he lost. He didnt seize power. It shocked countries across the world that this grand new Constitutional Republic would have a peaceful transfer of power. And so there it was written in the United States constitution, to guarantee the peaceful transfer of power. This was the day for the constitution set that our representatives, our elected representatives were to count the electoral votes as required by the constitution of the United States. And those people on those on that screen, im sorry, im a simple country lawyer but even i can figure out that is a conspiracy to commit sedition against the United States of america. Please tell me where im wrong. And please tell me if i am not wrong, why the hell these people shouldnt be charged by federal prosecutors to the fullest extent of the law and be sent to prison for 20 years . Joe, theres a lot to unpack there. But im going to take the easiest nobrainer section of the question first. These are seditionists. You dont need to have a law degree to understand that they have violated the sedition laws of the United States. Now, im not necessarily talking about the massive crowd that wandered in behind the organizers and the most violent and didnt even realize where they were and took pictures and wondered allowed how this happened. Im talking about the people who traveled with the intention to do it, conspired with others, and enacted violence against not only people, officers, and our legislators but intended to disrupt our government processes. There is no question that ultimately the charge of sedition applies to them. Heres whats happening, joe. There is a race against the clock now with the fbi. They have a pending inauguration to secure. Theyve got to build cases like you talked about, identifying organizers, taking an enterprise approach to the investigation. So what were seeing is rest now on complaint, grand jury and indictments for much, much heavier charges against america. One of those charges for at least a handful of organizers will be sedition. But i want to go back earlier to something you said. Its something im passionate about. And you mentioned evangelical christians. You mentioned people who think they are patriots and are doing the right thing for america. One of the ways you deradicalize a population, sadly we learned this from the International Terrorism side of things, you continue to expose people to the truth and give them other options. The problem is these people have lost sight of their code, their core values. There is misplaced loyalty. They are not loyal to a country anymore. They are loyal to a person. I wrote this book that launches today because the fbi has got it right about how it preserves its core values inside and the nations core values. I distilled it down to the 7 cs. Guess what the first is . Code. Codes of conduct come from keeping your eyes on your core values. We have americans who have lost sight of the core values of america. The son c in my book is conserve answery. Every one of us is responsible for preserving the core values of our group, company, community, and country. And we have lost it. The most disturbing thing of all, joe, that has been developing over the course of the last 48 hours, we may have had Law Enforcement officers who lost their code, lost their core values, dont understand who to be loyal to. We are hearing reports of 15 Capitol Police officers suspended. We are hearing reports that City Police Departments across the country are opening internal affairs cases for officers who lost their way. Sadly, im here to tell you, that is factoring into the security preparations for the inauguration. Why . Because while we have counter surveillance looking at prem terse, now we have to have counter surveillance looking at cops during the inauguration of a new president. Well, and of course we read and roll our eyes when we read about problems that germany is having with neonazis infiltrating their police force, their security forces. Were having the same problems in the United States of america right now. Its a fascist president who is inspiring people to, again, go against their code, mika. In yeah. The code, the bible, the constitution, which of course hypocrite kael they hold up both. But they are worshipping an idol. And you look at their actions. They shall be judged by their actions. They shall be judged by their fruits. As far as being part of this sedition, if somebody put on their facebook page, lets go up to the capitol and stop this. Lets go up to the capitol and be part of this revolt, guess what, thats sedition. That is sedition. And those people need to go to jail for 20 years, if they came up and broke into the capitol. Rejection of sedition, rejection of treasonous acts, of coup attacks separates us from other countries around the world. Willie, republicans in congress who arent speaking out as vehemently and as passionately as joe is right now who cannot recognize the accountability, how can they call themselves patriots, servants to this country and not seditionists themselves . They shouldnt call themselves patriots if they cant condemn what we saw on wednesday and what we know may be coming on the inauguration next week. We know from what were reporting, seeing on the internet, talking to members of congress and National Security people that what we saw last wednesday may be the undercard or not main event for whats being planned around the inauguration, which is why you are seeing this stepped up security. Claire mccaskill, your republicans in the senate and the house cant stand up and say once and for all it may be too late, but say once and for all that joe biden won this election. President trump got 74 million votes. But he came up short. It was fair and square. Its time to move on and support the new president. You dont have to like what happened but you have to come to grips with reality. Why . Why cant republicans stand up and say that to their voters . The republicans on capitol hill have bought into the lies from day one. They either ignored them or they looked the other way. Or worst of all, they embraced them. And the big lie that donald trump started committing, the crime against america that donald trump began really began months ago when he started telling people that believed in him that if he didnt win, the election was a fraud. And he continues to embrace the big lie. And the majority of them embraced the big lie. Thats where we are. If we want unity, and i think joe biden desperately wants it. I think all of us want unity. We want to stitch this back together. It has to begin with republicans acknowledging that there was no massive fraud. That Donald Trumps lawyers had all the evidence. And the evidence was there. It was edited conspiracies, edited videotape. It was people trying to make a buck. It was anything but massive fraud. Until republicans can do that. Until they can reject the big lie, they cant even open their mouths about unity. Shut up about unity. Until you can state the obvious, that there was a big lie. By the way, Lindsey Graham did it on the floor that night. He said enough is enough. There were not 82,000 people underage that voted in georgia. There was not fraud in georgia. Its enough. Its over. He at least said its over, and there was no fraud proved. And, mika, republicans arent being asked to condemn a president s tweets, to condemn something that happened on able news. They are being asked to stand up in this moment in our countrys history and help prevent a terrorist attack on the United States next week. Read the reporting. Talk to anyone in washington. Thats what is in the works here. Republicans being asked to stand up and tell the truth. Many of them have had trouble doing that the last several months around this election, and stop the terrorist attack on america. Well now to something that hasnt happened in trumps entire presidency. Kevin mccarthy reportedly stood up to him. During a 30minute phone call yesterday with mccarthy, President Trump falsely blamed antifa people for storming the capitol. That is a lie they tried to spread, to no avail. Another source told axios, mccarthy would have none of it telling the president , its not antifa, its maga. I know. I was there. The white house official described the call as tense with trump ranting about Election Fraud and an exasperated mccarthy cutting in to say stop it. Its over. The election is over. Stop it. Its over. The election is over. Its not hard, republicans. Stop it. Its over. The election is over. And if you tell americans this, mika, an amazing thing may happen. We may actually be able to prevent further murders of Capitol Hill Police officers. We may be able to prevent further abuse against Law Enforcement officers, the killing of five people in the capital, insurrection against the United States of america. Riots against the United States of america. Security of the free press. If they will tell the truth they know is the truth that every federal judge with trump, maybe those are the words they use. Stop it. Its over. The election is over. During a Conference Call with House Republicans yesterday, mccarthy told members that trump bears some responsibility for the riot. Mccarthy was one of the over 100 House Republicans who voted to challenge bidens election win. In his new found pushback against the president may have a lot to do with Campaign Donations. A growing wave of big businesses say they will suspend or review their Campaign Donations in the wake of last weeks riot at the capitol. Many say they would stop donating to those who rejected the certification. The growing list of those corporations includes dow, marriott, blue cross, american express, airbnb, best buy, mastercard, comcast, the Parent Company of nbc universal. So far 33 companies have either temporarily halted all Political Action committee donations, donations to lawmakers who voted against certifying Electoral College votes, or will take the unprecedented events of last week into account when considering future political donations. Other companies are reviewing their procedures but will give money through their Political Action committees. Jake sherman, of course, the ra else for 2022 begins now. And Kevin Mccarthy understands he cant do that if he has over 100 members that have the political mark of cain on them that arent going to be touched. And what corporations in the United States of america can support a house member that voted for insurrection against the United States of america . At the end of the day, thats what its all going to boil down to. So did mccarthy have his road to damascus experience because these corporations started to pull the plug on republican donations . Well, a few things to keep in mind. Number one, its not like you said, joe, its not these people who came to the capitol that are funding donald trump and Kevin Mccarthy and the senate republicans. Its big corporations that give big checks to the nrcc, the Campaign Committees and super pacs. Youre right. He has a big problem on his hands. The larger problem for mccarthy, i understand what he said on the private call. I get that. Mccarthy on a call yesterday with House Republicans didnt say that. Hes not taking responsibility for or hes not publicly blaming donald trump. Hes not saying there is going to be any repercussions for his actions. Hes not doing the things to say publicly he understands what donald trump did here. Trust me, i was in the building. There was nobody in the building who is sane, a freethinking, naturally intelligent human being that cannot look at the president and say, you called for people to be strong, you called for people to come up to the capitol. They came up to my place of work, Kevin Mccarthys place of work, and they stormed the building. So people, normal republicans in the House Republican conference, not people who follow qanon, not these lunatics who believe these conspiracy theories, but freethinking people want to hear something from mccarthy. And mccarthy needs to have some sort of reaction here that goes beyond maybe we should censure him. Or its not antifa. People want to see that from kevin. Auto imhearing that all over. People want to hear some reaction from him. So, jake, where does impeachment stand . Especially in light of what these companies are doing and considering, the nofly list story which well get to in just a moment. Could that impact Impeachment Votes . Where does impeachment stand, first of all . So we have top of punch bowl a. M. This morning up to 20 republicans are going to or are expected to vote for impeachment between 10 and 20. Thats a tiny sliver of the 200 member House Republican conference. But its massive compared to the zero republicans that voted for impeachment back in 2019. I think, listen, people are trying to in the capitol find an artful way to break from trump. Frankly, and i dont see this often, but people dont have the backbone. They need to find the backbone or people will consider them to be a joke. I think impeachment is going to die it will pass the house, die in the senate most likely. And theyre going to move to the next congress. But i do think theres just going to be continued ways to try and prevent donald trump from getting in the white house again. Claire, joe biden said yesterday he would like to bifurcate the impeachment process. Meaning he wants to begin his agenda on january 20th but will respect if democrats in the senate want to move forward with the trial of impeachment even after the president has left office. Theres some legal question how that would work exactly. What are you hearing from your old friends around congress about how this may play out . Democrats already have the votes to impeach. We will move quickly. Then it moves to the senate. What happens from there . Well, i think whats going to happen, there is a little notice provision that was put in the law. When we had the ricin scare on capitol hill, they passed a resolution that allowed the majority and minority leader to call the senate back from recess without having to have unanimous consent of all 100 members. So what that means is Chuck Schumer is going to be in a position, once the house impeaches and they do it quickly, chuck is in the position where he can say to mitch mcconnell, we dont have to wait. All you have to do is sign your name on this piece of paper and were back in session and we can begin work on an impeachment trial. That will put a lot of pressure on mitch mcconnell. There are a lot of members that are ready to vote for conviction in the senate, republican senators beyond mitt romney. Bifurcation is simple. They could do hearings for confirmations in the morning and conduct the trial in the afternoon. But they have the ability to get started early. All they have to have is the cooperation of one guy, mitch mcconnell. So, frank, here we are now a week, almost a week from the time of the capitol insurrection, the capitol siege, the capitol riots. What can you tell us looking at Law Enforcement . What are you piecing together . What went wrong . So ive been calling this not an intelligence failure but a failure to act on available intelligence. That makes it a security failure. Nbc broke the news a couple of days ago that the fbi actually provided its intelligence concerns regarding violence to the Capitol Police, to the washington metro police, similarly nypd, intel unit, did the same thing. Not an intense failure but not acting on available intelligence. That raises the question of why. And now were looking at suspensions of Capitol Police officers. Were hearing about National Guard not being deployed or deployed but delayed deployment. And weve got to look at the role of executive leadership in the police department, but farther up who was pulling the strings and saying were going to have a limited footprint. We dont like the optics of this. Was this a strategy . This is where were headed moving forward. On the manhunt side, the fbi is racing the clock right now. All 56 field offices, monumental task. Joe, i am hearing they are pulling their hair out with regard to the vast numbers of threats that exist on social media. Imagine its your job in the new york city field a office but the never going to do it and people saying i am headed to d. C. Youve got to make the difference. They dont have the tools to do it, like International Terrorism. The whole idea of Prevention Needs to be examined by the new congress. What do i mean by that . We still dont have a domestic terrorism law. We still dont treat this like International Terrorism. Change the religion of those people that stormed the capitol, you have jihadists. Electronic surveillance, agents in their groups and organizations pause we have designated them as potentially violent. We have nothing like that going on. With he need to think about how we prevent this moving forward because the threat is not going away simply because donald Trump Leaves Office well, memo to joe biden, the first bill he should Push Congress to pass and the first bill he should sign would be the defining of domestic terrorism and aggressively going after domestic terrorism in this post age of trump. Frank, finally, do you have confidence your new book is the fbi way. Do you have confidence that people inside the fbi are of one accord, that they are moving in one direction, they are not split like in the 2016 election with a lot of people hating hillary clinton, a lot of people hating donald trump, and you having competition between the new york office, d. C. Office and all the other offices. Is the fbi way in 2021 hunting down these seditionists, dragging them to jail and making sure justice is served against each and every one of them . The fbi is on the job like its never been before since 9 11. Now, heres the deal. I wrote the book pause i know the fbi operates at the highest level of excellence, when the stakes matter the most. I know how they do it. I have distilled it down for your viewers in seven simple cs i call the fbi way. Heres the disturbing answer to your questions. The penetration of Law Enforcement by the trump ideology, we have had a president who each campaign has held huge cops for trump rallies around the country. They are well attended. There are cops wearing qanon badges on their uniforms. Can i guarantee that hasnt penetrated federal agencies . I cannot. There has been a radicalization process in this country and Law Enforcement is not immune to radicalization. And i fear as we move forward were going to hear more and more stories and more and more investigations of current and former Law Enforcement and military that have kept their eyes off democracy and put them onto a single individual. It was a perfect storm. The blm protests calls for a defunding of police. A feeling theyre isolated and they are about to get even axed in some steugs. And now you have an isolated angry population. I cant believe we are talking about countersnipers that have to keep their eyes on cops as well as on protesters. Good god. Are with here . It appears we are. The new book is the fib way. Inside the pures code of excellence. Former assistant director of the fbis Counter Intelligence, frank figliuzzi. And jake sherman, punch bowl news hey, jake, whats punch bowls lead today . What are readers getting in their inbox . This 20 people will vote for impeachment. With he talk about mccarthy and the problems he faces and the deep divide in the conference like liz cheney, who are speaking up against the president , and Kevin Mccarthy who is toeing the line. And the split on the House Republican Conference Call yesterday between lauren bow better, a qanon believer, and a mainstream republican. Mace was decrying the fact that the party is being led by qanon fanatics, something you can sympathize with a little bit. But this divide is as big as its ever big. With President Trump facing a second possible impeachment trial, we will be joined by two democratic lawmakers who also served as impeachment managers during his firsttrial. Congressman hakim jeff sis and adam schiff will be our guest this morning. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. Morning jo. Well be right back. Out of my passion. I mean, who doesnt love obsessing over Network Security . All our techs are pros. They know exactly which parking lots have the strongest signal. I just dont have the bandwidth for more business. Seriously, i dont have the bandwidth. Glitchy video calls with regional offices . Yeah, thats my thing. With at t business, you do the things you love. Our people and network will help do the things you dont. Lets take care of business. At t. The moxie showerhead speaker. 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So bounce forward, with comcast business. In a season of chaos, the crimson tide are the conference. Constance excellence. Bludgeons the buckeyes. And saban steps back. Alabama won its sixth National Title in 12 years, blowing out a good ohio state team, 5224. The Heisman Trophy winner, Devonta Smith had three touchdowns, 215 yards receiving all in the first half. They didnt need him to do anything in the second half. Mac jones, the quarterback. Najee harris ran in for a couple of touchdowns. It was never even close. Nick saban said he thinks this is the ultimate team. Mac jones said i think were the best team ever to play. You can make a case for that offense certainly. Again, your tide rolls on to another title. You know, i agree looking at this team last night. Certainly the best offense i have ever seen at the university of alabama. The best offensive coordinator i have ever seen. Kiffin. Well, we never put him second to anybody. Best quarterback this century easily. He is just cut out to play at new England Patriots under belichick. Best wide receiver not only to alabama but in College Football ever most likely. My favorite running back at alabama najee harris. And you have to say, willie, the greatest football coach certainly of our time and hard pressed to not say of all time what they have accomplished 10, 11, 12 years. He has won seven national championships. Yeah. The great bear bryant of course for the ever by a major College Football coach. Even objectively hes the best College Coach of all time. Alabama is the national champ. I would love to get your input on this. We understand these are kids that are throwing a ball away. What we were told in high school and college, it is about character building. This has been a tough season for all of these teams. They have stayed in a bubble away from their families. Smith showed such great humility. I saw it there again last night. A lot of the alabama kids could have been multimillionaires. A lot of them decided to stay for this one final year to win the national championship. It shows real character. Translator highest civilian honor has been turned down by new England Patriots coach Bill Belichick. He was offered that honor by President Trump but now declined it. In a statement he said this, recently i was offered the honor to receive the president ial medal of freedom which i was flatter by and out of respect for what the honor represents and admiration for prior recipients. I know i also represent my family and the new england operate kwrots team. One of the most rewarding things in my professional year took place in 2002, when through the great leadership within our team, conversations about social justice, equality and human rights moved to the forefront and became actions. Continuing those efforts will remaining true to the people, team, and country i love, outweigh the benefits of any individual award. A white house official tells nbc news the white house has been made aware of belichicks decision. Certainly for anybody, especially a football coach. This is an honor that a lot wouldnt pass up. But i guess it shows just how remarkable the events of the last week have been. Yeah. When we saw this on the schedule this week, a lot of people wondered, my gosh, after what happened wednesday, is Bill Belichick going to step forward and accept a medal from President Trump. He came out yesterday and put out that statement. It may seem like a small thing to some people. A football coach declines a medal. But when Bill Belichick does this, when Arnold Schwarzenegger makes the speech the other day, they are speaking to audiences who have Great Respect for them, who may tune in to them who wont listen to a politician or member of the media. It matters what leaders like this do and say. It was good to see Bill Belichick step up and do the right thing. Willie, im so glad you brought up Arnold Schwarzenegger. Youre exactly right. Those are the salespeople that are going to at least be able to slightly penetrate a group that has been part of this cult. It is not going to be shuck schumer or any democratic politician, talking heads on cable news shows. It will be people like Arnold Schwarzenegger that a lot of americans have grown up with. When he takes out the sword, a lot of people might think it is over the top. He makes a great point with it. And belichick and schwarzenegger, youre right, those are two voices that could break through and actually move some minds. Yeah. And if they stop one or two people from doing what they are talking about to go next week, not just in washington but state capitals across the country, it will be worth the stand they have taken the last couple of days. For sure. Up next a 10point guide to the prosecution of donald trump. Were back in a moment. 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President elect joe biden speaking when he nominated Merrick Garland for attorney general. But what will happen if the Justice Department does decide to decide to prosecute President Trump. Editoratlarge at newsweek tom rogers. Hes out with a new piece, 10point guide to the prosecution of donald trump. And professor in law at Georgetown University and former Trial Attorney with the United States department of justice. Paul butler, msnbc legal anal t analyst. I need to begin with you. We have heard at the end of the past were couple presidencies, people on the other side talking about wanting to prosecute. You had some democrats urging the prosecution of george w. Bush for war crimes. In the iraq war. Republicans of course urging the same for barack obama. Now we get to the end of the trump presidency, and of course, my god, there is a laundry list of things that donald trump could be prosecuted for. But the federal level and the state level. My concern has always been, we go down this road. Then we are are criminalizing politics and people start understanding that if i lose this election i could end up in jail. I understand that donald trump is an exception to all exceptions. But do we not have to keep that in mind, be cognizant of that fact, if we jail a president , even if he deserves to be in jail, that we begin down a dangerous road . We certainly have to have that concern, joe. Merrick garlands most difficult decision would be to whether to prosecute donald trump and other members of his administration. On the other hand, we dont want this to be the equivalent of lock him up, lock her up. On the other hand, people should be held accountable. And no person is above the law, including the president. As you indicated, donald trump alleged criminality is on a different order, a different scale than even allegations made against previous president s. Yeah. And we saw donald trump trying the get joe biden arrested and joe bidens son, family members arrested. We have the possibility of the Biden Administration looking at criminal referrals for Jared Kushner and criminal referrals for don jr. From the Republican Senate intel committee. That is strong. At the same time, you remember as well as i do, gerald ford pardoning Richard Nixon. He knew it would likely cost him the presidency. It did. But of course the Kennedy Center gave him a profile in courage award for having the courage to make that tough decision. This would be an even tougher decision. Remember abe lincolns word with malice towards none. We have to look at the prosecution of donald trump and think about the ma anything nancy that trump has caused on our overall politics and that we do about it. There were a lot of devastating things that happened last week. There was nothing in my mind more devastating in terms of a statement about our politics. After the riots, after all the legislators had to flee, the majority of legislators came back to vote in support of the big lie. And what that really says is they believe their constituents still believe in trump. As you have said many times, this is a cultive personality. Given the fact that is a cultive personality, we have to go after him as a personal not the head of a political movement. If bidens Justice Department prosecutes him it will in sraeurable looking at it as political revenge. We need the elevate the prosecution of him as a person with state and local prosecutors taking the lead on what looked like a huge number of tax evasion, money laundering, illegal corporate payments, bank fraud. Theres a lot there. If he is nothing more than a wide collar criminal on that basis, i think we have some way of detaching much more of that republican constituency, which still seems to believe in this guy and not enough of them, as we will see from impeachment, are even willing to vote even now against him, how to separate his the constituencies who believed in him as a person. So i believe the elevation of those prosecutions, not by the Justice Department, by local and state prosecutors becomes imperative. Tom, im looking at your 10point guide. One is to remove donald trump from the political playing field. What does that mean exactly and how do you go about doing it . Well, i think that one of the things that we know about trump is he says things out loud he shouldnt necessarily say but are extremely revealing. Back in the spring when i was talking about how they were going to take this whole Electoral College overturn vote to congress, he was actually saying this is all going to end up in congress. One thing he said a number of months ago was imagine if i lose. I might have to leave the country. I think if he is indicted here for the criminal acts im talking about, they need to be fairness, i think there is a chance he would flee the country. Go to a country that we have no extradition treaty with a friendly president like pralz. And i think this whole notion of going after him as the head of a personality cult can do an awful lot not only to change this perception of people still believing in him and therefore him being able to impose litmus tests on how congressmen act when it comes to policy and political issues and turn him into some level of a political irrelevant which i think is absolutely doable if we go hard and fast going after him on these other criminal activities. So claire mccaskill, you can jump in on the next question. What about the family members and lawyers around him. Shouldnt there be a plan to hold them accountable as well so further criminal actions and incitement of riots or whatever can be stopped in their tracks . Well, there is enough evidence for disbarment for the clown car of republicans. Technically in removing him from the political playing field. A lot of people said if hes impeached he cant run again. Thats a separate vote. They would have to convict him and remove him from office. Then a second vote, which is a simple majority that it would take to bar him from seeking future office. But let me ask paul this, would it make more sense in terms of trump wanting to be a martyr, to focus on his crimes that were financial that have to do with him both gristing off the presidency and the fraud that were all pretty certain he committed as part of his business dealings as part of the presidency. Does that isolate his behavior as a crook but not make him a political martyr in terms of the public at large . It might have that impact, claire. Donald trumps most egregious acts are precisely the ones he committed in office as president. So i think he should be investigated and prosecuted for inciting the insurrection of the capitol and trying to get the georgia officials to steal the election for him. And for obstructing justice in the countless investigations of his administration. The advantage of a state prosecution is that trump couldnt pardon himself. That wouldnt be true even if he is prosecuted by the Southern District of new york. At this point, a prosecution for bank or Insurance Fraud would not sufficiently capture trumps criminal exposure or his just deserves. Thank you. The new piece is online for newsweek. Former dhs secretary Michael Chertoff on the security failure at the capitol last week. And why he says to, quote, buckle up, over the next few weeks and months. Morning joe is coming right back. 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Because right matters. And the truth matters. Otherwise, we are lost. Congressman adam schiff reminding republicans last year exactly what the nation was up against in donald trump. What a beautiful shot of washington, d. C. Look at the fog rising over the potomac. Just absolutely beautiful. So, willie, before we start this hour, you know, weve gone in trouble. We certainly did before 9 11 because of a lack of imagination. And im just wondering, you look at the news that weve read today, that we are hearing about today. Capitol hill cops right now that are suspended because theyre afraid that they were working with the rioters who were trying to overthrow the United States government, commit sedition, stop the constitutional action to help the peaceful transfer of power. The concerns at the National Guard, we may have some of the same concerns. We have former members of the army who are helping to lead these riots. Im thinking back. And frank talked about the fbi, his concern that there may be cultists inside the fbi, people sympathetic to sedition inside the fbi. I think we have to look to new members of congress that im not talking about anybody specifically, but who have pushed the these conspiracy theories. I dont remember come member it was. I will say this generally. I heard one member talking about how she was going to carry her gun on capitol hill whether people liked it or not. The correct answer to that is no, no, youre not. Thats against the law. And when i was a member, we would just move freely around the security checks. We didnt go through screening. We didnt have to pass through the mags, we didnt have to be patted down. I just wonder if its not a new time where were goi require al screened like everybody else to make sure theyre not carrying weapons inside the capitol hill chamber. Because if they believe in wild conspiracy theories and are part of an Online Community thats calling for the sass admission of nancy pelosi and other members of congress and make pence, then they are they are a security risk, and they have to be watched more closely. So i think we have to make all members of congress be screened wherever they go inside the capitol. Its an amazing thing to even be talking about, about you youre absolutely right, joe. I had a conversation last night with a House Democrat who said, my god, i stopped in my tracks and i realized yesterday there are members of congress, many of them in this new freshman class, who shouldnt be anywhere near nancy pelosi, shouldnt be anywhere near joe biden or Kamala Harris at the inauguration. A member of congress this House Democrat said they shouldnt be near them. Their suggestion, as you say in ads that they are going to carry weapons with them around the capitol. Think about that. A member of the house of a new colleague coming in saying, i dont think we should be around this person, and i certainly dont think this person should be around the leadership of our country. They are too dangerous. You have people who have gone along for the ride in the republican party. You have people like ted cruz and josh hawley, who have been the faces of the senate in this. Then you have people who deeply, deeply believe these conspiracies, who were elected on these conspiracies, qanon followers, conspiracy theorists who sit among the 535 members of the United States congress. According to at least one member, and i know there are more based on what he told me, present a Security Threat to other members and to the leadership of this country. Astonishing thing to conjure this morning. So lets bring in msnbc contributor Mike Barnicle and washington, d. C. Post jean robinson. Were smart enough that voted t certify the election are just lying to the american people. Ted cruz is a liar. He knows he is lying to the people of texas. He knows what he was trying to do is get to the front of the class for the 2024 republican nomination. He is responsible for the deaths of at least five people in she diction acts of the United States of america. I know ted cruz and josh hawley, they know theyre liars. They know they are lying to themselves and their constituents. But, as willie said, there is a growing concerned there are a few house members who are so steeped in conspiracy theories they believe nancy pelosi is part of some International Cult of cannibalistic pedophiles and puts Nancy Pelosis life at risk when joe biden and Kamala Harris is on the hill, could possibly put their lives at risk. Only thing im saying, im curious if you agree with me. Shouldnt we put the Capitol Hill Police on notice . Shouldnt they not have a failure of imagination again and understand that the enemy may be within because they are still calling for sedition against the United States of america . I think absolutely. Absolutely were going to have theres going to have to be more security on capitol hill obviously. But also, youre right to focus on some of these new members who believe the whacko conspiracy theories. Yes, they are a threat. In some ways the bigger threat is the bulk of republicans on capitol hill who go along with this, who dont call it out, who dont isolate the whackos. Who go on with the big lies that there were irregularities in the election that there are, who talk vaguely about allegations of voter fraud without mentioning that all the the allegations have all been disproven. Thats what really deeply concerns me. Because there are cynical republican politicians in congress and Public Office around the country who go along with a lie that Donald Trump Tells because they believe their constituents want to hear them go along with that lie. And it is corrosive. It is damaging, as we saw last week, it can be tragic. And it wont go away. It wont go away with donald trump. This is a long hard battle for truth we are going to have to fight. And this is not going to be an easy period even as his influence diminishes the problem is still there. So what was the president doing while the heart of our democracy was being attacked by the most loyal to him . He was watching tv. The Washington Post reports trump was too busy watching the events unfold in realtime to bother with the pleas from lawmakers who were under attack. Their lives were in imminent danger. The post spoke to 15 people with knowledge of trumps actions during those six hours of mob rule and found him to be a man who didnt karas they begged him to speak out. More than 30 minutes after the riots started, aides finally started to issue a tweet which was please support our capitol please and Law Enforcement. They are trial on the side of our country. Stay peaceful. However, he reportedly didnt even want to write stay peaceful as he was enjoying his supporters fighting so hard for him. Its all about himself and how he will actually encourage people to commit treason against this country. And also ill just a little side note sit back while people are hunting for mike pence to hang him. People are searching out nancy pelosi to assassinate her, put a bullet in her head as one of the people said. And basically decapitate the top of americas Constitutional Government other than donald trump. I need to understand mike pence, joe. He was put in a safe room. His life was in dangerous of trumps rioters. And he demured at the thought of the 25th his own president , his boss allowed people to close in on the capitol and try and kill him. Yeah. Whats wrong with this man . We will learn much more. Thats how a cult works. Theres so Much Negative thats going on. Obviously there are a lot of things to be distracted by. But i want to point out something that Arnold Schwarzenegger pointed out in that seven or eight minute video. The defiance shown by members of both parties after these riots saying we are going to continue the peoples work. We are going to complete our constitutional duty. And we are not going to let this mob get in the way between what the constitution demands that we do and what this mob is trying to stop us from doing. Mark it downment a lot of things have happened the past week. But lets mark that down as something to salute. A lot of lawmakers. And lets bring in right now the chairman of the House Democratic caucus. Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of new york. Congressman, i have a lot of questions to ask you. Let me just start with something that willie and i have been talking about this morning. Willie talked about speaking to a Democratic House member people outside the chamber but also inside the chamber. And if you look at the conspiracy theories that some of the new members believe support, encourage, promote, and certainly would it not be reckless for the Capitol Hill Police not to start screening members to make sure they are not carrying weapons into the chamber or other places when they are around nancy pelosi or when joe biden delivers any address to Congress Good morning, joe. Thanks for having me on. We have to take a close look at every one of the enables and those providing aid and comfort to the sedition, whether they are members of congress or not. This was an attack on the congress, the country, and the institution encouraged by donald trump. And the flames have been fanne few members who are incredibly reckless in the senate. He wanted to assassinate nancy pelosi, hunt down members of congress. The building was overrun. Monuments were desecrated. Police officers were beaten. Urine and feces were left behind. If you have members of congress who are supporting the underlying premise of the big lie that the election was stolen from donald trump, of course theres reason to be concerned they could be a danger on other leaders and certainly the leadership of our house. Here we are six days out from this rampage, the First Time Congress has been rampaged since the british did it in 1812. I want to ask you what happened with the Capitol Hill Police . He was around them for six, seven years. I have gone back to the capitol, also had the greatest respect for the Capitol Hill Police. Love the guys. And the women. They were they always treated us with respect. But at the same time as you know, seemed to do their job. So what happened on that day . You have the National Guard, the pentagon trying to blame the Capitol Hill Police for not wanting reinforcements. You have the retiring police chief blaming the senate for not providing more support. What can you tell us six days later why the Capitol Hill Police were so woefully and adequate when history called upon them to be at their best . There is an extensive remove under way to ascertain what happened, how it happened. Give me the big picture. Just from six days later, whats your gut . What the hell happened . Well, i think the Capitol Police force was underresourced and under prepared. There was a massive leadership failure to anticipate that the mob was going to turn on the capitol. We will have to examine why. The Capitol Hill Police chief is gone. Thats the right thing. The sergeant at arms and the house gone. The sergeant at arms and the senate gone. I indicated to determine whether there were officers within the ranks of the Capitol Hill Police force sympathetic or derelict in their duty. That will be comp mensive. If they are complicit, they will be held responsible. The massive intelligence failure. The police force and the Law Enforcement entities charge with securing the capitol understand the serious nature of the threats being posed and the risks particularly when you have the president fanning the flames of insurrection and sedition. That can never happen again. And were involved in conversations making sure we hold the president accountable for high crimes and misdemeanors. But we will return because mob rule is not going to prevail. The rule of law will prevail. There is one piece of evidence that is consistent throughout all the tapes we have watched of the recurring events we see that occurred on capitol hill a week ago. And it is this. That the crowd the terrorists, the criminals all held a passport that allowed them to enter the capitol. And it was their skin color. What are your thoughts on that . America is a great country. We still have a long way to go. One thing is clear. We saw it manifested the other day. That in fact, has always been the case whenever there is a significant event. We are on a march towards a more perfect union, but we are not there yet. And there are many people in the communities that i believe and many people within the congress who are clearly of the view the events would have unfolded and in a very different way. You think . Perhaps part of the failure to anticipate the violent insurrection and the attack related to deference that was given because of what the crowd looked like. Exactly. Congressman, its willie geist. Let me ask you about your response to congress. That is to impeach the president of the United States. A vote may come as early as tomorrow. Is there any doubt in your mind that you have the votes to impeach again President Trump . My view that the votes exist and the right thing to do is to proceed because donald trump is a clear and present danger, every second, every minute, every hour that he remains in office. Twitter has put him in the penalty box. He still has access to the nuclear codes. He still has the capacity to fan the flames of insurrection by encouraging supporters to stop the steal anchored in the big apply that he still hasnt walked away from. But we also are going to have to make sure that we address the people like ted cruz and josh hawley and Kevin Mccarthy, who also support the big lie and continue to be irresponsible in their behavior. But well start with the clear and present danger that is donald trump. And i believe that the votes exist, do the right thing and march towards his immediately removal. Congressman, what would that look like to address ted cruz and josh hawley and the minority leader Kevin Mccarthy . Well, thats a question that i think is being closely looked at once we get beyond the moment of accountability and stopping the president in his tracks because of the immediate threat that he presents. There are scouts who have been in conversations with us about the fourteenth amendment, section 3. It explicitly prevents people from Holding Office who engaged in insurrection and who have provided aid and comfort to those who have engaged in insurrection. Thats the plain language of the fourteenth amendment. And i think were going to have to take a look at it and its implications as we move forward. All right. Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, thank you so much. And for a long time certain circles would explain away die hard support for donald trump a as a symptom of economic anxiety among working class americans. But among the people who descended on washington last week included business owners, gop political donors, offduty police, and members of the military. Our next guest reacted to that fact with a twitter thread, including, quote, elite white conservatives with their degrees and status and polished very near have always been more dangerous than poor white people because they had power and received so much deference from the media. Joining us now Pulitzer Prize winning reporter covering racial inouts Nicole Hannah jones. Great to have you with us this morning. We were just talking about a couple members of congress. My god, what scrappy stories. I mean, they went i dont know if they graduated from oh, wait, they did graduate from high school between josh hawley and ked cruz, you have a stanford degree, yale law degree, princeton degree, harvard law degree. It reminds me of what ann apple bomb write in twilight of democracy. There are lazy stereotypes attached to Trump Supporters, and it is off trump and his own people who are attaching that when in fact, donald trump has been fueled by the ceos from Massive Hedge Fund organizations, multinational corporations and has been supported in newspapers and online and in congress by people with the best degrees in america. Absolutely. It has been a soothing narrative for us to believe that were only disaffected people, only those who have some economic anxiety, only those who are too ignorant to know better would support somebody like trump. We needed to believe that in a sense that intelligent people, powerful people would know better. But trump does not get to be trump by simply getting the support of poor and disaffected white people. They dont have the power to make a trump. They dont have the power to donate to the campaign, certainly to turn an entire election. When you look at the polling numbers, republicans consistently supporting trump, there arent enough poor white people for him to pull that high in the republican party. But this has always been the case. I mentioned in the tweet thread, the White Citizens Councils. What they did, those were the most economically advantaged, most powerful citizens in the south. And they kind of pulled the strings behind the scenes. They worked up lower class white americans. They have stoked that racial divide in order to get their larger agenda. They tried to manage the violence. I think what we saw on wednesday is what also happened in the south during jim crow. Sometimes the violence would go too far and then it would turn the tide. It would make enough americans sit up and say, okay, this is enough. Its gone too far. But i think we really need to do some serious soul searching why we needed to believe this myth that these were just white people who didnt know better when really trump is radicalizing but also we understood for those at the peak of power, this was about deregulation, about tax cuts for the wealthy. This is about using the veneer of disaffected white americans to push a larger agenda that was going to be to the benefit of them. And the reason that that has worked is that the racial divide has always been since the american revolution, when the british exploited the racial divide against the colonists, the sharpest tool in the arsenal. We have almost a primal reaction to the stoking of the racial divide and it never benefits low income white americans. It only benefits the elite. And we saw what happened with that this past week. Lets go to Gene Robinson. Gene . Nicole, that story you just told is a familiar one. Sit true between the White Citizens Councils and the klan back in the days of jim crow. They were the josh hawleys and ted cruzes of their day. Heres the situation, though. We have there are millions of americans, almost all white, almost all republicans who somehow need to be deprogrammed. Its as if they are members of a cult, the trumpist cult and they have to be deprogrammed. Do you have any idea how we start that process . Much less complete it. Im a journalist. I dont know how we can stop people. I know we can look to history, though. What ultimately breaks that power structure in the south is enforce. Right . There has to be consequences. And then once you get those consequences, i think people have to take a second look at their actions. And they have to be much more afraid to do the types of violence that we saw last week. The violence that we have seen building with what happened in michigan, the violence being threatened now. What has long been the case in this country is we have wanted to quickly move on to reconciliation when it comes to this sort of divide. We have always been afraid if you actually punish those White Nationalist elements in our society, it will only make things worse. In fact, what history shows is not reacting, not forcing accountability only emboldens the people in those movements. There has to be some accountability, enforcement of the laws. And then after that i think is when you can start trying to build reconciliation. And let me read this really quickly from twilight of democracy. I found it in the United States. Trump supporters do not live in communities ravaged by opioids. They do not spend much of their time in midwestern diners. They do not in fact, match any of the lazy stereotypes used to describe trump voters at all. On the contrary, they have been educated at the best universities, often speak foreign languages. They live in london, washington, warsaw, madrid. They travel abroad. Just like sebastians friends in the 1930s. They are, nikole, not what the they were painted after donald trump won. Absolutely. We saw this immediately at the exit polling. They had a Median Income of 70,000. That is certainly not low income. That is certainly above the average worker in this country. That they were well educated. They were middle to upper class. Yet that narrative stuck. Who benefited most from the narrative . It was the elite Trump Supporters who were the base of the party. Did they benefit low income white americans . It does not. But what we know is that that racism, nationalism was created as a tool of economic exploitation, created to exploit a black labor force but a white labor force where they vote against their own economic interests because it means they are still above the lowest person on the totem pole which would be a muslim, latinos and black americans. Just to put it bluntly the people pulling the strings have not gone the scrutiny. Everyone was shocked by who showed up last week. But for some of us its not been shocking. Its been clear. Story to or interrupting. I thought we had come to a break. Youre very right. The very people most disadvantaged by the tax cuts were working class americans. They got screwed by the deregulation, all the things helping the richest people in the world. A lot of those working class americans pay more in taxes after the trump tax cuts than amazon. A lot of the working class americans who got screwed by his tax cuts, screwed by deregulation, screwed by everything he did to help the richest, wealthiest americans of course they go down to maralago and quoted to all his billionaire friends there, i just made you a lot richer tonight. You should love me. Sit working class americans who continue to get the short end of the stick. Still ahead on morning joe, two democratic lawmakers test positive for coronavirus after last weeks capitol riot. One of those lawmakers has harsh words for her republican colleagues who refused to wear a mask while in lockdown. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. Ching morn. Well be right back. In every zi . Add an employee. Or ten. Then easily and automatically pay your team and file payroll taxes. That means. World domination or just the west side. Run payroll in less than five minutes with intuit quickbooks. Birds flyin high, you know how i feel. Breeze drifting on by you know how i feel. Its a new dawn. If youve been taking copd sitting down, its time to make a stand. Start a new day with trelegy. No oncedaily copd medicine has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. With three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy helps people breathe easier and improves lung function. It also helps prevent future flareups. 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Hey look, i found the tent get xfinity home with no Term Contract required. Click or call today. Two democratic lawmakers test two democratic lawmakers test welcome back to morning joe. Two members of congress have tested positive for coronavirus after sheltering in place during last weeks capitol attack. Democratic congresswoman from new jersey, bonucci watsoncoleman, a cancer survivor, tested positive yesterday. She said she believes she contracted the virus while isolating with fellow lawmakers. Another democratic congressman also tested positive for covid19. And sharply rebuked her republican colleagues who she said cruelly and selfishly refused to wear masks. She he writes this, i am calling for serious fines to be immediately leveed on every member who refuses to wear a mask in the capitol. Additionally, any member who refuses to wear a mask should be immediately removed from the floor by the sergeant at arms. She continued, this is not a joke. Our lives and livelihoods are at risk and anyone who refuses to wear a mask should be fully held accountable for endangering our lives because of their selfish it idiocy. President elect joe biden says he was appalled by the video, called their actions irresponsible. Joining us now dean of the Brown University school of Public Health dr. Ashish jha. Good to see you as always. First, your impression of what you see in the video and two congresswomen have tested positive for coronavirus. They blame their republican colleagues. Good morning, willie. Thanks for having me on. I dont really know what to say about that video. I look at it and im stunned by it in some ways. There is a selfishness there. People know when you wear a mask, yes, youre protecting yourself but also protecting people around you. And the fact that you choose not to do that for your colleagues is baffling to me, mind boggling to me. And unfortunately i think we will see more cases of members of congress and their staff testing positive in the days ahead. And its one of the consequences of that horrible day last week. And some of those republicans proudly rejecting the masks as a stand. Against what, i dont know. In a crowded room. Lets talk about the rollouts of the vaccines. The country has been consumed by the attack on the capitol, insurrection at the capitol. Where are we in terms of the rollout . Has it gone better . We know some of the early problems in getting the product out and shots into arms. Whats the current state of play here . Yeah. Its starting to get better. Were starting to see some movement. Basically because there had been no federal planning before the vaccine started rolling out, states have been scrambling. And states are starting to make progress. We are far from where we need to be. President elect biden said a million doses a day. I think we need to do more than that if we can. Were nowhere near that yet. I do think we will get there. Boy, we lost a good month or six weeks because we didnt do the planning that was needed. Given the time we have lost in disexpensing the vaccine, do you think it would be a wise decision to say first come, first served for the vaccine . I think one thing that slowed us down, we have made it too complicated. A lot of state Health Leaders and the complexity of who gets it, when they get it, really difficult. What i have proposed, what many of us are now saying is lets simplify this. Maybe a small tweak on what you just laid out. Lets do it for everybody over 65 or over 55, say first come first served. If youre an older american, we know you are most at risk. Lets get them vaccinated. Keep it really simple. I think that would make a big difference. Dr. Jha, just curious, as i look at the death toll on our screen, 377,000 people, what is the forecast for continued deaths and hospitalizations in light of how this vaccine is being rolled out. Yeah, mika, its not very good. The next four, six weeks, maybe longer, are going to be pretty horrendous. We are losing 3,000 plus americans a day now. There is one other ominous thing on the horizon, which is this sraeur kwrapt from the uk that is now i think starting to really take hold in the United States. Thats going to cause more infections, more hospitalizations, and unfortunately more deaths. So there is a fierce urgency here to get these vaccines out. And for people to continue to wear masks, not turn mask wearing into a political symbol. My goodness. We dont turn drinking and driving into a political thing. It is just the right thing to do. We have to maintain social distancing. We have to get through this. The next six weeks or so will be pretty tough unless we can really ramp up getting vaccines into peoples arms. Dr. Ashish jha, thank you so much, as always. Coming up, former secretary of Homeland Security, Michael Chertoff, and the lingering threat ahead of the inauguration. And at state capitols around the country. Morning joe is coming right back. Morning joe is coming ri back stay restless with the icon that does the same. The rx crafted by lexus. Get 0. 9 financing on the 2021 rx 350. Experience amazing at your lexus dealer. You power through chronic migraine 15 or more headache days a month,. Each lasting 4 hours or more. Botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. So, if you havent tried botox® for your chronic migraine,. Check with your doctor if botox® is right for you, and if samples are available. Effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection. Causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing,. 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Nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts, for allday, allnight protection. Can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn . Federal Law Enforcement authorities are deploying 15,000 National Guard troops to the nations capitol for the inauguration. This as the fbi warns of possible Armed Conflicts across the u. S. In the coming days, while 16 potentially armed pro trump groups registered to stage protests in d. C. Defense Department Officials are planning for worst Case Scenarios including snipers targeting inauguration, dignitaries, suicide type aircraft, entering washingtons restricted airspace. And even remote powered drones attacking the crowd. The officials said they were particularly worried about multiple active shooter situations flaring up simultaneously. In addition, the fbi issued a bulletin warning of armed protests planned at all 50 state capitols and u. S. Capitol the u. S. Capitol beginning this weekend. Joining us now, former secretary of Homeland Security for the bush administration, Michael Chertoff. He led security efforts for president barack obamasen anything raeugz back in 2009. Thank you very much for coming and joining us this morning. Can you please tell us how serious these threats are and what is your advice for americans who would like to be in washington for the inauguration . Well, i think we have to take this threat seriously. Whether or not the people who make them can back them up. We have to presume the worst, and thats how you prepare. The mayor said people should not come to washington to participate, they should participate virtually. That is good advice not only from the standpoint of security but for the covid virus. So i would urge most people to stay home, watch it on television or other kind of media and not to come to washington. Mr. Secretary, a week after the insurrection against the United States government, what are your thoughts . I know you have had some time to think through it. What went wrong . What should we be worried about . And what lessons should we take forward into the next administration . Well, i think unfortunately the Capitol Police, who had the responsibility for security of the Capitol Grounds did not prepare or anticipate this kind of an attack. The barricades were woefully in adequate if you compare those to the barricades around the white house. They didnt have enough personnel and apparently they didnt seek to bring the National Guard in until late in the game. They didnt have a planning capability where they brought together all of the Law Enforcement agencies and security agencies to actually put together a game plan. So this was really a failure of planning and anticipation that tragically resulted in loss of life and tremendous amount of damage. The listen is youre going to prepare for the worst cacase scenar scenario. Hopefully it never happens. It is better to be overprepared than underprepared. Mr. Secretary, willie geist. Good to have you this morning. We are talking rightly about the United States capitol on inauguration day. There are protests, riots, a, ta. We dont know what planned on all 50 United States capitals. Some have already gone to high alert. How do you protect and plan for something so widespread on a single day . Thats exactly what the planning is designed to do. So i know, for example, in washington, i was concerned not just about an assault on the capitol. But as i think you said a little bit earlier, active shooters, pipe bombs. We saw a couple of those last week. That means you have to have enough sources to deal with all of those issues. Different forces have different capabilities. One thing that would be very important this time around is having 15,000 National Guard on the street, capable of responding and blocking anybody who attempts to create disruption. Mr. Secretary, the Washington Post Gene Robinson is with us and has a question for you now. Gene . Secretary chertoff, were talking about inauguration day, just a week and a day away now. But will there be a heightened threat of these kinds of will we have to be in a period of heightened security at state capitols as well . One thing i said previously publically is i do believe we have entered a period of time where domestic terrorism is more of a threat than global jihadists as i have seen in europe. But we have seen more deaths committed by domestic terrorists than we have of jihadists. I think this is going to continue for a while. It may come to a crisis point where finally these groups step back, kind of like what happened with Oklahoma City in the mid90s. But i think the fbi and state and local Law Enforcement need to be prepared for this coming forward for a while. It is important i think that social media has now decided it will be more vigorous in policing excitement. Secretary, september 11th, january 6th, two shocking, epic criminal acts committed against the United States of america. What do you think the impact lingers more so, september 11th or what happened with january 6th . What changes us more . Well, i thought of september 11th when i watched what happened on january 6th. I was at the department of justice leading the response to september 11th. I think september 11th woke us up to the fact that we are not immune from overseas threats even by networks. That in a sense was a sobering moment for american exceptionalism. I have to say this is comparable, if not more so, because these are americans that are doing this. I have always been proud to talk about democracy. I chaired the freeman house. A lot of people around the world will look at the u. S. And say, why are you in a position to lecture us . I think it will require us to step back, look at what has caused this and then work actively to begin to create unity to the constitution, which i know what the incoming president wants to do. The most important thing i think is this. We have entered a period of time of fake reality where people propagate lies, not least the president of the United States donald trump. And ultimately a lot of individuals have difficulty distinguishing between whats true and whats false. And that creates a real threat to democracy. So the media needs to begin to work to make sure that we stand for the truth and not simply repeating both sides of the story even if one side is completely bogus. Former secretary of Homeland Security, michael chertott. Thank you for being on this morning. Three sources confirmed that House Democrats were briefed on security concerns, including specific threats to the capitol following the attack last week. One remember recalls it was chilling and horrific. The briefing was conducted by the acting u. S. Capitol police chief and oh security officials, including those directly involved with the january 20th inauguration planning. The officials wanted to increase the number of National Guard troop securing it. They answered questions regarding the security of member travel. Democratic members were also reminded by the House Administration committee that they can use government money to protect themselves, which is included in the members congressional handbook. The purchase of a bulletproof vest is a reimbursable expense, the guidance reads. Still ahead, the leading member of the impeachment of donald trump. Representative adam schiff joins us. Plus, the financial blowback against members of congress who tried to challenge bidens clear electoral victory. Morning joe is coming right back. Ever wonder what retinol dermatologists use to fight wrinkles . Its neutrogena®. Rapid wrinkle repair® visibly smooths fine lines in 1 week. Deep wrinkles in 4. So you can kiss wrinkles goodbye neutrogena®. 2020s done a new era has begun so keep pushing forward. Because this is twenty twenty won make a different future start different at godaddy. Com are you managing. Using fingersticks . With the new freestyle libre 2 system, a continuous glucose monitor, you can check your glucose with a painless, onesecond scan. And now with optional alarms, you can choose to be notified if you go too high or too low. And for those who qualify, the freestyle libre 2 system is now covered by medicare. Ask your doctor for a prescription. You can do it without fingersticks. Learn more at freestyle libre 2 dot u. S. The sleep number 360 smart bed. Prices of the season on can it help with snoring . Ive never heard snoring. Exactly. No problem. And done. And now during the lowest prices of the season, the queen sleep number 360 c2 smart bed is only 899. Only for a limited time. Good morning and welcome to morning joe. It is tuesday, january 12th. We have former u. S. Senate, now an nbc news and msnbc news analyst. Jake sherman is an msnbc political contributor. And former assistant director of the fbis Counter Intelligence division. His new book is the fbi way. So we got frank here, so thats good. Frank, you know, i went to law school. Country lawyer. I really dont understand these strange words that you all jumble together. But a couple of federal criminal statutes because i think its a good place to start this show because i think with all of the ground noise thats going on, all of the questions about who voted what, where, i think were missing the bigger picture, and i want federal authorities to know that the people of the United States of america are going to pressure them every day to hold these traitors, to hold them to the full extent of the law. I understand there are a lot of people out there that call themselves evangelicals that no longer believe in the word of god, that havent read the new testament, havent read the gospel. Thats fine. Thats between you and jesus. But when you storm the capitol, thats between the federal government and you. And we are the people. We are the people. You tried to take over our house. You trashed our house. You beat up our Police Officers. You tried to kill our speaker. You tried to kill our Vice President. You are going to be held accountable. And then maybe when you are in jail for a long time maybe somebody can slip you a bible and you can start reading the gospels again and maybe even read the Old Testament about what happens to nations when they worship false idols. So that is a backdrop. Good morning, everyone. Section 2384, seditious conspiracy. And stop me if this doesnt apply. Keep the picture. There you go. If two or more persons in my state or territory are in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States conspire to overthrow, put down or to destroy by force a government of the United States or to levy war against them or to oppose by force the authority thereof or to force, to prevent, hinder or delay the execution of any law of the United States or by force to seize, take or possess any property of the United States, contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined not more than 5,000 and imprisoned not more than six years. There are others that actually were updated. I gather thats in 1948. This one says not more than three years or both. Of course it was updated in 1994 and updated, frank, to 20 years. And so, frank, you look at the language. Lets put it up one more time. You look at the language, frank, and you tell me how these people who were breaking into the capitol who are now whimpering and whining when theyre being taken off of airplanes. They dont understand that they have committed treason against the United States of america, that they are involved in a seditious conspiracy by force, hinder, delay the execution of any law of the United States. But, frank, thats the thing. This wasnt just any law. This was actually one of the cornerstones of the United States constitution. This was the part of the constitution that separated us from every other country it fir when he voluntarily walked away from the presidency after he lost. He didnt seize power. It shocked countries across the world that this grand new Constitutional Republic would have a peaceful transfer of power. And so there it was written to the United States constitution, guaranteed at peaceful transfer of power, and this was the day the constitution set that our elected representatives were to count the electoral votes as required by the constitution of the United States. And those people and on the screen, im sorry, im a simple country lawyer but even i can figure out that is a conspiracy to commit seditious against the United States of america. Please tell me if im wrong. Please tell me if im not wrong why the hell these people shouldnt be charged by federal prosecutors to the fullest extent of the law and be sent to prison for 20 years. Joe, there is a rot to unpack there, but im going to take the easiest no brainer section of the question first. These are seditiousists, and you dont need to have a law degree to understand they have violated the sedition laws of the United States. Im not necessarily talking about the massive crowd that wandered in behind the organizers and the most violent and didnt realize where they were and wondered outloud how they did it. Im talking about traveled with the intention to do it, conspired with others and enacted violence against not only people and other legislatures but intended to disrupt or processes. There is no question that ultimately the charge of sedition applies to them. There is a race against the clock right now with the fbi. They have a pending inauguration to secure. They have to build cases like you talked about, identifying organizers, taking an enterprising approach to the investigation. Were seeing an arrest now on complaint. Then we will see grand juries sitting and indictments for much, must have heavier charges against america and one of those for a handful of organizers will be sedition. I want to go back earlier to something you said because its something im passionate about. You mentioned people who think theyre patriots right now and theyre doing the right thing for america. One of the ways you deradicalize a population is that you continually expose people to the truth and you give them other options. The problem is these people have lost site of their code, their core values. There is misplaced loyalty. They are not loyal to a country anymore. They are loyal to a person. I wrote this book that launches today because the fbi has got it right about how it preserves its core values inside and the nations core values. I distilled it down to the seven cs. Guess what the first c is in the book . Code. Codes of conduct come from keeping your eyes on your core values. We have americans who have lost sight of the core values of america. The second c in my book is conservancy. The concept that collectively every single one of us is responsible for preserving the core values of our group, company, community and country, and we have lost it. The most disturbing thing of all, joe, thats been developing over the course of the last 48 hours is that we may have had Law Enforcement officers that lost their code, lost their core values, dont understand who to be loyal to and were hearing 15 Capitol Police officers suspended. We are hearing reports that City Police Departments across the country are opening internal affairs cases for officers that have lost their way. And sadly, im here to tell you thats factors into the security preparations for the inauguration. Why . Because while we always have counter surveillance looking at perimeters now we have to have counter surveillance looking at cops during the inauguration of a new president. Coming up, the congressman that led the last impeachment effort against President Trump, house intel chairman adam schiff joins the conversation straight ahead on morning joe. For some of us, our daily journey is a short one when you drive less, you pay less with pay per mile insurance from allstate youve never been in better hands allstate click or call for a quote today hey frank, our workers comp insurance is expiring, should we just renew it . Yeah, sure. Hey there, Small Business owner. 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Plus, for a limited time, ask how to get a 500 prepaid card when you upgrade. Switch today. Well, now there is something that hadnt happened in trumps entire presidency. House minority leader ken mccarthy reportedly stood up to him. Axios is reporting during a 30 hin yut phone call yesterday with mccarthy, President Trump falsely blamed antifa people were storming the capitol last week. Thats a lie they tried to send around to no avoail. Mccarthy would have none of it, telling the president , quote, it is not antifa. Its maga. I know. I was there. The white house official described the call as tense and aggressive at times with trump ranting about Election Fraud and an exasperated mccarthy cutting in to say, stop it. Its over. The election is over. Stop it. Its over. The election is over. Its not hard, republicans. Stop it. Its over. The election is over. And if you tell americans this, an amazing thing may happen. We may actually be able to prevent further murders of Capitol Hill Police officers. We may be able to prevent further abuse against Law Enforcement officers, the killing of five people in the the United States of america, riots against the United States of america. Security of the free press. If they tell the truth that they know is the truth, that every federal court with trump judges said was the truth, then maybe those are the words they used. Stop it. Its over. The election is over. During a Conference Call with House Republicans yesterday, mccarthy told members ta trump bears some responsibility for the riot. But mccarthy was one of the over 100 House Republicans who voted to challenge bidens election win. And his newfound pushback against the president may have a lot to do with Campaign Donations. A growing wave of big businesses say they will suspend or review their Campaign Donations in the wake of last weeks riots at the capitol. Many are saying they would stop donating to republicans who objected to the election certification. The growing list of those corporation includes dow, marriott, blue cross, american express, airbnb, best buy, mastercard as well as comcast, the Parent Company of nbc universal. So far 33 companies have temporary halted all pac donations, donations to lawmakers who certified against Electoral College votes or take the unprecedented events into last week into account when considering future political donations. Other Companies Said they are reviewing their procedures for political donations, but they will continue to give money or 2022 in the olitical action house begins now, and Kevin Mccarthy understands he cant do that if hes got 100 members that have the political mark of cain on them, that arent going to be touched. And what corporations in the United States of america can support a house member that voted for insurrection against the United States of america . At the end of the day, thats what its all going to boil down to. So did mccarthy have his road to damascus experience because these corporations started to pull the plug on republican donations . Well, a few things to keep in mind. Number one, like you said, joe, it is not these people who came to the capitol who are funding donald trump and Kevin Mccarthy and big republicans. You are absolutely right he has a big problem on his hands. But the larger problem for mccarthy is that i understand what he said on the private call. I get that. But mccarthy on a call yesterday with House Republicans didnt say that. Hes not taking responsibility for or hes not publically blaming donald trump. Hes not saying there is going to be any repercussions for his actions. Hes not doing the things that says he understands what donald trump did here. Trust me. I was in the building. I know who was there. But there is nobody that was in that building who is sane and is a free thinking natural, you know, naturally intelligent human being that cannot look at the president and say, you called for people to be strong. You called for people to come up to the capitol. They came up to my place of work, Kevin Mccarthys place of work and they stormed the building. So normal republicans, not people who follow qanon, not these lunatics who believe these conspiracy theories, but real free thinking people want to hear something from mccarthy. And mccarthy needs to have some sort of reaction here that goes beyond maybe we should censure him or its not antifa. People want to see that from kevin. Im hearing that all over. People want to hear some reaction from him. Coming up just shy of one year ago during the first impeachment trial of donald trump, adam schiff told republicans this. Can you have the least bit of confidence that donald trump will protect our National Interest ahead of his own personal interest . You know you cant, which makes cant. Ngerous to this coun you know you cant count on him. None of us can. None of us can. Adam schiff is standing by now. Morning joe is back in a moment. Will pick up by q3. Yeah. Uh. Doug . [ding] never settle with power e trade. It has easytouse tools and some of the lowest prices. Dont get mad. Get e trade and start trading today. We use 11. Eleven. Why do an expense report from your phone when you can do it from a machine that jams . I just emailed my wifes Social Security number to the entire company instead of hr, so. Please come back. How hard is your Business Software working for you . With paycom, employees enter and manage their own hr data in one easytouse software. Visit paycom. Com for a free demo. Hon . First off, we love each other. To customizes yourcan gocar insurancetual. Com so you only pay for what you need . Really . I didnt aah ok. Im on vibrate. Aaah only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Mitch mcconnell has demonstrated when it comes to jamming Supreme Court justice through the congress, he can move with greater lackwity when he wants to. If he chooses not to, when supporting the baseless challenge object to moving forward, then it is on them what this president may do between now and inauguration day, but i dont want that on my conscious. Joining us now, democratic congressman adam schiff of california. He was a manager of the 2020 impeachment of donald trump and is again advocating for his impeachment and removal from office. Congressman schiff was on the floor of the house when the mob tried to gain access last week. In light of what happened, what is the significance of this Impeachment Vote . Well, first of all, i dont hear anyone saying what donald trump did was not impeachable. But somehow this conduct is compatible. I also dont hear many people saying its safe to leave him there. This is the remedy that congress has. It is not ideal. The best thing for the country would be for him to resign or for the Vice President to find a backbone and invoke the 25th amendment. But neither of those things seem likely, so we will do what we have to do to try to protect the country, and the significance is the founders understood there could be oxygensies at any time during a presidency, including the last two weeks and the mechanism they provided is nimble enough to be provided in this emergency. Congressman, we talked to your college a few minutes ago on this show, and he said hes confident the votes are there at this point to impeach President Trump perhaps as early as tomorrow. Do you agree with him . I do. I dont think this is any question about that. The only question at this point is how many republicans will support the impeachment and how many will continue to make excuses and equivocate and as they did a year ago come up with the rationalizations for why they wont do their duty. Yeah. It is beyond rich to hear some republicans now say it is a time for unity and healing and not for impeachment. What do you view as the possibility here . Because one of the objectives we heave heard from democrats is to prevent donald trump from serving as president , from serving in any federal position. Do you see that as likely . A lot of people said its probably not going to clear the senate with a conviction because you need a twothirds majority, and then it would go to a majority vote on whether or not the president could serve again. How important is it to you that donald trump not serve again in this country . Well, its very important. But my priority right now is taking whatever action we can to remove the current threat, the clear and present threat we face every day hes in office. And so i think thats where our attention has to be focussed. But if you look to the future and ask just as we did a year ago in some of the clips you were playing from the last trial, can we be confident of history not repeating itself with donald trump . Can we be confident that four years from now he wont be back mounting another insurrection about the results of another election . And the long and the short of it is of course we cannot be confident of that because this mans lack of character is not going to change. His basic immorality is not going to change. So, yes, that does concern me. But my top priority is doing whatever we can do in the house and we have to hope that the senate will do its job to protect the country from the threat that exists today. So, congressman, in protecting against the threats that exist today, there is obviously concern about safety inside the capitol. I want to ask you what you have learned so far over the past week about what happened with the Capitol Hill Police. A lot of fingers being pointed. A lot of people saying the retired Capitol Hill Police chief said he didnt get the support from senate leadership. Nypd even saying they warned the Capitol Police. Money for us in congress as well. Most of us are mystified by why the Capitol Police were so out numbered, why this wasnt anticipated. It didnt require extensive intelligence to see the potential for danger here given that the president was doing this rally. Were mystified by it. Were still trying to resolve the situation with the National Guard and why they werent brought in and why the capitol wasnt better prepared. You know, i have to say, you know, it is distressing in so many ways because we see Capitol Police officers who were not doing their duty, who have been suspended because of that, but we see others, like that footage you just showed of that Police Officer trapped in that door fighting for his life and fighting for our lives. And those of us that have had security details because of the threats we have faced have gotten to know these Capitol Police officers and how superb they are. They feel like they have let us down and it is heartbreaking. But we dont have, i think, any kind of clarity at this point, joe. Were trying to figure it out. Speaking of clarity yesterday, i talked about the torts task that our torts professors would give us at the beginning of torts one. The but for test when you are talking about negligence. But for x, why. If there was a car accident e planing to our viewers, you remove one person from the scene. By removing them from the scene, the acts that wouldnt have happened, obviously that points a finger towards where the negligence lies in that car accident. And this insurrection, im wondering on the but for test, who fits in that. We know donald trump does. But for donald trump, those crowds wouldnt have been there, guilty of provoking people to commit insurrection against the u. S. Government. But who else fits in there . Does Kevin Mccarthy fit in there . Is he responsible . Is ted cruz responsible . Is josh hawley responsible. Who are at the end of the day responsible in a meaningful way for the insurrection against the United States . I think there is a lot of responsibility, joe, as you point out that goes beyond the president. People that have been propagating the big lie that hes been trying to sell the country. I have nothing but contempt for Kevin Mccarthy that carried the president s water for so many years. He and Mick Mulvaney are in the same place, which is claiming somehow theyre newly discovering donald trump is a different than they thought. No. Hes exactly the same person we knew he was every day of his tenure. And Kevin Mccarthy is worried about keeping his job right now. Kevin mccarthy is worried about money drying up right now. Otherwise, he would be pushing the antifa law. There are people with serious soul searching to do. Not that i expect that will happen. But it is hard to look at our colleagues the same way because Kevin Mccarthy and 140 of his colleagues after the failed insurrection were right back on the floor pushing the same big lies. And its just contemptible. Congressman adam schiff, thank you, as always. We appreciate it. You know, i just want to read something from my friend talking about the christian insurrection. I talked about it at the beginning of this show, that too many people who call themselves christians, too many people call them evangelicals, they have turned from the word of god. They have turned from actually worshipping god, worshipping jesus and now theyre worshipping an idol. Thats not what im saying. You can actually read the bible. You can look at those pictures. You can compare them to those red words that you used to read in the gospels. You compare them and you can hear them bragging about how theyre christians and you can see that they are just like we read in jeremiah, just like we read in the Old Testament. They are worshipping idols or more specifically one idol. David french writes this, im going to be honest, i cant shake the sadness. I cant shake the anger. We have to be clear about what happened in washington, d. C. On january the 6th. A violent christian insurrectioneninsurrection en invaded and occupied the capitol. So many of the protesters told us they were christians as loudly and as clearly as they could. The reporter in the green compiled considerable evidence of the presence in her excellent report. I saw much of it with my own eyes. There was a giant wooden cross outside the capitol. I watched a man carry a christian flag into an evacuated leg lislative chamber. I could go on and on. He had other people present at the riot that saw this. This is again whether you are a christian or not, you can read the gospels of jesus christ and his life and you can match his words with what we saw on tv and what we have been seeing from donald trump for the last four years and you understand that the e vn gangel cal leaders that have been leading their flocks to follow this idol, this political idol are taking their flock dangerously off course. And, yes, that flock bears responsibility just as much. God gave them a mind. God gave them a bible they can read. They just refuse to do it over the past four years. Im also trying to put together. Kevin mccarthy i guess through this new reporting blames he was begging the president to stop and its over. But what was his vote on that day . What was his vote . Well, to lie to that person and to lie to all the people you are seeing in these pictures. He didnt take a vote. To talk about how the election was stolen when he knows it is a lie. So is it over . That every court that every court ruled against Donald Trumps outrageous claims. Every single court, those that had trump appointed judges on there, the Supreme Court, amy coney barrett, you name it, they all rejected this because its all a lie and kevin knows it is a lie and now of course kevin is telling the president its a lie and to just stop it because hes not getting money anymore. Two of President Trumps favorite banks are pulling away from him because of the deadly capitol hill riot. A person with knowledge of the matter says Deutsche Bank has decided to refrain from further business with trump and his company. According to reporting, trump owns the frankfurtbased lender more than 3 milli 3 million. Lots of luck with that, fella. They are pressing for trump to step down and closing two personal accounts which hold about 5. 3 million. According to reports, a spokesperson said we believe the appropriate action would be the president of the United States, which is in the best interests of our nation and the american people. So what other banks are going to step up . Who would want trumps dirty money. Well, most banks havent wanted to loan him money for years now because hes a horrible businessman and he doesnt repay his loans. Theyre pulling away. We have seen these corporations we talked about earlier saying they will withdraw and halt for good any donation to a congressman or woman or political candidate who voted for the insurrection the other day. So there is great corporate pressure pushing downward, not just on the president but members of congress as well. Im curious about kushner money as well. Up next, the catch phrase greed is good made its mark in the 80s. The real life implications of that and how theyre still being felt today. Author Kurt Anderson joins us straight ahead on morning joe. Man whats my safelite story . I spend a lot of time in my truck. Its my livelihood. Rock music man so im not taking any chances when something happens to it. So when my windshield cracked. My friend recommended safelite autoglass. They came right to me, with Expert Service where i needed it. Rock music man thats service i can trust. No matter what im hauling. Right, girl . Singers safelite repair, safelite replace. In a year of changes. Dont take chances on your taxes. Be 100 certain with Jackson Hewitt. Well get your taxes done right, guaranteed. Well get your taxes done right, guaranteed. 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Classic line from the film wall street depicting the dangers posed by americas decent into corporate greed. We will be looking at how we got to where we are economically as a nation. Kurt andersons latest book evil agageniuses. Kurt joins us again with morning joe Economic Analysis steve rat inner. Also writer for the Los Angeles Times opinion section. Thank you for being with us. I thought Kurt Anderson i would provide you with the consummate knee yo neoliberal that you once were but have been converted to the new left, old left. Were not sure yet, kurt. But we got ratner for you here, so it is going to be a good discussion. So i love and i cant recommend this book enough for people of all political persuasions. I love you walking us through decade by decade by decade americas economy and also the attempts by people on the economic right, sort of a libertarian right to move from a group of cranks to the political middle. For the most part in the post war era, most economic liberals were considered cranks. What happened . Well, a lot of things happened. One of the things that happened is that the opportunity came, really, in the late 60s and early 70s because of this super liberalism. I wont call it extreme. But the new deal kept going. And in the late 50s we got the epa and environmental regulations. We got ralph nader. And the right and ceos of the Larger Companies got freaked out and said, we got to get together and mobilize and politicize and create, you know, certainly keep ourselves from being washed away. But then lets create a counter establishment. Of course he became the avatar godfather of that. He got famous in the 60s. Five yeasimply, all that times matters is prit all that matters is profits. Not racial equity, not environmental justice, not anything else that you liberal ceos may be thinking of. That was really a call to arms. At the end of 1970 at the moment of great flux. It went from there. A year later louis powell just before Richard Nixon named him to the Supreme Court had he had gotten riled and frightened and hysterical. He was a low key establishment democrat lawyer. He wrote this memo commissioned by the u. S. Chamber of commerce to do so laying out a plan for heres how we influence the media. Heres how we influence academia. Heres how we have to make ceos become political fighters for free market capitalism. And then charles koch came along very influenced by the powell memo. The business round table was formed. Instead of the u. S. Chamber of commerce that had every widget companies of america, they got together and created this more powerful than ever washington political entity that would that would lobby against unions and so forth. That was in the early 70s. That was almost a decade before Ronald Reagan was elected. Who knew . I was unaware as a kid of what was going whe picture of richar nixon there. And nixon really was the opposite of what were accusing donald trump of being over the past four years. Trump played the populist but he showered riches on the richest 0. 00 1 . As you point out in your book, nixon was a progressive leader economically. Whether you talk about the epa. Whether you might have talked about the safety, he expanded Social Security, expanded entitlement program, so he was everything economic conservatives hated. I still remember sitting in the backseat of my dads Station Wagon hearing my dad in the early 1970s, a big nixon fan going, what the hell is nixon doing . Not watergate. Not yet. The price controls were the concern, yes. No. Was a straight ahead conservative. But, yeah, and he couldnt have been angrier and in general the squishy liberalism of the nixon administration. Look, i certainly agree with the thesis i saw yesterday and i read up on this. There is no question we have a huge problem with kmk equality and people being left behind and so on. There is more question of what caused it. First of all, it is a global problem. It is occurring all over the world. It may surprise everybody to know that sweden has more billionaires per capita than the United States. Norway has more billionaires per capita than the United States. Iceland. I could go on. And so it is very much in part a function of Global Economic forces that have led to the knowledge economy rewarded people who worked at the top end of the spectrum and hurt people at the bottom. I covered the Carter Administration and i agreed with everything joe said about nixon. Carter was really the first president who talked about reducing the role of government, actually did some deregulation because the waging price controls and the whole economy wasnt functioning when carter came in, which was really part of how he got elected. And then reagan came from there. Where kurt and i may entirely agree over whether this is really caused entirely by big businesses and lobbying the business round table or whether there were other forces at work. I think we were trying to find other solutions to our problems. Remember, reagan was not just elected by big business, he was elected by the american people. Trump was elected by he was elected by those famous blue collar White Working Class people that we talk about all the time all in search of another solution to the problems. So i think big business certainly is accountable for some of this, i just dont think theyre accountable for all of it, kurt, and love to hear your thoughts about that. As was said earlier on the program, theres a lot to unpack there. One thing to unpack, the nordic countries and the rest of the rich world in general yes, of course technology, globalization are global issues and all countries face those. The problem is, instead of facing them as any as the rest of the rich world did, from canada to the nordics and beyond in terms of creating and having robust safety nets and ways to actually take care of the 80 of americans who didnt make out, the United States didnt. So yes, all countries face those problems. And us compared to all of those countries is a stark comparison from universal health care to all the rest of the ways in which we lack any kind of social safety system. And, yes, inequality slightly economic inequality slightly went up in European Countries as opposed to doubling in the United States. Yes, we all face the same problems. We dealt with them terribly, thanks to the evil geniuses of the right, and the rest of the world dealt with them okay and in varying degrees. So theres that. Yes, the Carter Administration and in the 70s the new democrats of whom i was a fan, the gary carters of the world, or gary harts of the world were moving to the center and to the right on economics. But only on economics. But on economics to the point where certainly by the 80s and certainly by the 90s there was no difference economically between the democrats and the republicans. The differences were on cultural issues and social issues and the rest. So no, its not all the work of i dont i really try in this book not to call it a conspiracy but it was a concerted orchestrated coordinated effort by this confederacy of the rich and the libertari libertarian zealots of big business and they did it. By the way, no problem as well as being a fan of gary hart, being a fan of gary carter, hell of a catcher for the new york mets. Lets get virginia heffernen into the conversation. Thanks, mika. I love hearing gordon geckos speech again, we always leave out he says for lack of a better word. He means Something Like smart. Thats why i have a question for you, kurt. We just heard that some of trumps banks, including Deutsche Bank, theyre after pinterest and elaine chao, but finally theyve decided that donald trump might not be a great bet. So greed is not exactly being intelligent there, this is not exactly genius work on behalf of Deutsche Bank in finally making a decision that the the chronically bankrupt donald trump, i wouldnt be able to get a loan, the rest of us are stopped in our tracks by capitalism. Because if we default on a loan we cant get another loan, our credit score falls but for some reason the bank dt expect them to be good, right, but we might expect them to be smart. Why do they keep from the 80s, your period to now, keep plowing money into this loser . Thats my question, about capitalism and donald trump. Well, that is a question. I mean, there was a theres a lot of answers to that. I mean in the case of Deutsche Bank there are particular questions and answers about why they did and have until yesterday done this. By way, speaking of the german history analogies which now even peggy nunan is permitting us to make, it is interesting, i feel like with that in particular i thought, oh, maybe we unlike in 1932 when german big business and its banks were saying oh, we can deal with this hitler guy, its not going to be a problem and then what happened happened, maybe by weve reached the point where big business and banks understand that, no, this guy is going to bring it all down. Why i mean, it is amazing in retrospect, certainly, that so many banks and steve could answer this probably much better than i, lent so much money to donald trump over the years. They stopped all by but Deutsche Bank and this little Signature Bank a while ago. So, i mean, one of the, i think, lessons of that is that for all of the oh the market is everything, the market knows all. The collective market makes brilliant decisions. Well, not really in the case of this bankrupt who was bankrupt by the way in 1990 and 91 who they kept lending money to, its a great point. Steve, ill let you answer the question about why banks continue to lend donald trump money but also lets look ahead to eight days from now when president elect biden steps into his job, walks into the oval office, inheriting his economy, he said covid aid just passed last week is a down payment on whats to come, what do you expect to see from him on the economic front . Sure. First on the banks, i think kurt actually answered the question when he said most of the banks stopped lending to trump after he went bankrupt so many times and they lost all their money. I do that bank kept lending to him. There may be some nefarious explanation for it. We dont know that yet but we do know that Deutsche Bank is the weakest of the big banks. You have to try to stay in business and do stuff other people arent going to do. Thats the benign explanation why they were frankly so stupid to continue to do business with trump. In terms of what i expect, let me frame it in terms of kurts response to what i said before, i agree with him completely that we have not done a good job in our social safety net at protecting people at the bottom. And i think that will be a big part of what you see in the biden agenda. But lets also remember that the European Countries as well as as they did at protecting people at the bottom, they did not do as well as we did at creating overall growth. Our growth rates over any period of time you want to measure them are in excess of all virtually all the European Countries. France had Something Like 9 Unemployment Rate before covid happened because of various economic policies that i dont think were completely well thought. So you have to be careful how you do this and not throw the baby out with the bath water. That said i think what were going to see from joe biden are going to be a combination of shortterm measures and longer term measures. We certainly need to do things in the shorter term to address covid related issues. People are unemployed. Small businesses were going out of business, things like that. And then longer term, we have to start to restructure this economy. Youre going to see an infrastructure package coming soon and youre going to see a tax package, the point kurt made, which i completely agree with, that the tax system in this country is obscene, and Donald Trumps tax bill made it even more obscene. Hopefully with a democratic senate, Democratic House and joe biden were going to get some Economic Justice from our tax code. So kurt, as you should know by now you could write the Great American novel, that supplants the great gats by as a Great American novel and still i would think that nothing would come close to what you and graden did with spy magazine but i bring up spy magazine because its very interesting. Willy and i had this running gag about donald trump around 2010, 2011, we would always say, ladies and gentlemen, americas Abraham Lincoln and wed all have a big laugh and he was sort of the butt of all the jokes. You wrote in your book, like spy magazine, you made fun of donald trump. You made fun of these like excessive, gross capitalist whatever. And it ended up the joke was on america. Yeah, no, thats true and just to be fair, to my colleagues at the time, not only made fun of him and called him short fingered bulgarian donald trump, but exposed him, reported on him, analyzed his financial shenaniga shenanigans at the time. Its not just in my view that we have done a bad job at looking out for the bottom with our social safety net. Sure we have. But the whole the astonishing point to me is that we have done a bad job at having a fair economy for the bottom 80 . Right . Thats the problem. And that takes big change to get back to where we wereen the pea in american history. You look at the fact that 40, 50 families made more money during this pandemic than, my god, tens of millions of americans, more than that likely, and it just shows, its starting to sound like were a south american country. So kurt andersens morning joe residency will continue to. Steve rattner and virginia heffernan, thank you both as well. That does it for us this morning. Stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. Hi there, im Stephanie Ruhle live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. It is tuesday, january 12th. And this morning, the anger on capitol hill is not going away. Instead, it seems to be growing as we get further away from last weeks insurrection. House democrats rejecting calls to ignore the president s role in inciting the mob, and pushing ahead with attempts to remove him from office, either through the 25th amendment or through impeachment. A single article of impeachment introduced monday and set for a vote tomorrow accuses President Trump of inciting vionc