Trumps second trip in as much of a week to an electoral battleground state. Also, nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of ka e kasie d. C. Sunday nights, kasie hunt. Shell update us on Congress Progress over another aid bill. Also, Jeffrey Goldberg is here with his analysis and new piece for the atlantic, that the conspiracy theorists are winning. Thats frightening. First, President Trump yesterday criticized dr. Anthony faucis remarks that he made to a senate committee. That reopening the economy too soon would cost lives and set back the economic recovery. Heres what dr. Fauci said on tuesday, followed by the president yesterday. There is a real risk that you will trigger an outbreak that you may not be able to control, which, in fact, paradoxically, will set you back. Not only leading to some suffering and death that could be avoided, but could even set you back on the road to trying to get economic recovery. It would almost turn the clock back rather than Going Forward. Dr. Fauci yesterday was a little cautious on reopening the economy too soon. Do you share his concerns . About reopening what . Reopening the economy too soon in some states. Look, he wants to play all sides of the equation. I think were going to have a tremendous fourth quarter. I think well have a transitional third quarter. I think well have a phenomenal next year. Well have a country thats going to absolutely have one of its best years. Next year, with all the stimulus and all of the fact that it is a pent up demand like i havent seen. When you say dr. Fauci is playing both sides, are you suggesting the i was surprised by his answer, actually. You know, its just to me, it is not an acceptable answer, especially when it comes to schools. The only thing that would be acceptable, as i said, is professors, teachers, et cetera, over a certain age. They ought to take it easy for another four weeks, five weeks, who knows . Whatever it may be. When it comes to schools, dr. Fauci said different regions would take different approaches. As far as making students and parents feel safe about returning to school, dr. Fauci said the likelihood of having treatment or a vaccine in time for the fall is, quote, a bridge too far. I think one of the issues here, joe, is that people understand fauci, especially when he breaks down the science of this. Its pretty basic. Whats funny is donald trump nmz s sitting there with his arms crossed, all defensive and upset. Donald trump it is. Donald trumps attacks of other people as John Heilemann accurately has said shows hes either confessing or projecting. Right. Heres a man who has been bouncing back and forth from saying that theres nothing to worry about, this is all going to go away, its just one person coming in from china. It is only 11 people coming in. It is only 15 people. Itll be down to zero. It is all going away in april. Hes been saying this for months. People are scared. One day, hell go, you know, 2 Million People could die, so were going to shut down. He bounces back and forth, back and forth, and back and forth. Theres no consistency, which is why donald trump only has 36 of americans who believe anything he says about this pandemic. By the way, those 36 of americans, i ask friends and loved ones to keep Household Appliances like blenders out of their reach. We dont want them to lose my fingers, any hands. Keep blenders and other sharp devices away from them. Basic household tools. These people could probably put out an eye with a screwdriver. So if they believe anything donald trump is saying about this pandemic, please, please, dont let them play with blenders. The second thing is, willie, is that dr. Fauci is actually following white house advice. He is following Donald Trumps white house guidelines, and hes staying consistent with Donald Trumps white house guidelines. So far from playing both sides. One of the stupidest things donald trump said, at least in the last day. Far from playing both sides, hes only playing one side. Were going to follow science. Were going to follow medicine. Were not going to be freaking out like donald trump if a new poll comes out that shows him getting destroyed by joe biden. Dr. Fauci is following medical and science advice that will keep americans safe. Donald trump, on the other hand, is darting back and forth, a freerange politician who has lost his mind because hes losing poll after poll after poll. To sit there and say fauci is playing both sides is just, again, about as stupid of an analysis as donald trump could give. That, my friend, is saying a lot. You know, governors, mayors, school superintendents, the American People will have to decide who they believe. Do you believe dr. Anthony fauci, a life in Infectious Disease study, or the hunches of President Trump . Because the alternative, donald trump said to dr. Faucis, quote, unacceptable answer, is his hunches. He said, well, if youre older, call it four, five weeks, who knows, he said. Schools, we have to send kids back to school. Yes, there are Rare Diseases that take place in a few kids, but you also could get hurt walking to school. You could get hurt in a car accident going to school. Donald trump is speaking with the authority of someone who has actually studied this when, in truth, hes going on his hunches and his wishes, joe, that this, again, will go away. And come september, kids will all be back in school. Boy, do we hope thats true. I know everyone on the panel and everyone watching the show hope their kids go back to school, but they want them to do it safely. What dr. Fauci said the other day is, we have to be humble enough to say we dont know exactly where this disease is headed next. No, he wasnt going to make grand pronouncements about sending all our kids back to school. Right. Donald trumps hunches that he talks about, his hunch was it was only one person coming in from china and it was going to go away. Right. Were going to be fine. February 22nd. February 26th, his hunch was, it is only 11 people coming in. It is going to go away. His hunch talking to africanamerican leaders in the white house in february, hey, this is going away in april when things get warm. Itll go away in april. Itll go away magically. That was his hunch. Then you get to march, what are his hunches . He starts having hunches. April, starts having hunches. His hunches are about hydroxychloroquine. Says it repeatedly, im not a doctor. What do i know . Its just my hunch. I have a good you know what, he said. What . Then the government, his government, has to warn, dont just take this stuff. Bad for your heart. Right. Then he, as a hunch, says, dr. Birx, check this out. I have a hunch. Im a pretty smart guy. I have a good you know what. How about injecting disinfectants into bodies to clean out the lungs. This takes on the lungs, so it could take on the lungs. He has that hunch, too. Not a doctor, he says, but he has a hunch. He has a hunch it wont come back in the fall and winter. That hunch, very bad. What a dangerous, dangerous hunch to have, when science suggests just the other way. We hope it doesnt come back. We hope it goes away magically. We hope leprechauns and fairies float across the land, donald trump fairies float across the land with magic pixie dust, making everybody healthy. Hopefully helping our backswings and adding muscle tone to those who desire it. Maybe, maybe he has a hunch that people with bad hair styles, maybe male pattern baldness will be removed. No. Theres no scientific attachment to these hunches. Whats the impact of it . The impact of it is that the 36 that actually still believe him are in danger. Theyre endangering themselves, endangering loved ones. Conservatives are going, what are you guys doing . It is not conservative to not wear a mask. It is not conservative to not socially distance. Its not conservative to go to restaurant and clump together, wearing american flags, thinking youre making America Great again by making americans sick, by making loved ones sick. Its crazy. Willie, you talked about, you know, these governors or dr. Fauci. Who are people going to trust . Theyve already decided. They dont trust donald trump. 36 trust donald trump. 61 or 62 dont. You look at the governors, the michigan governor, governor whitmer, shes in the 70s. Wisconsin governors ratings are sky high. Mike dewine in ohio, Approval Ratings are sky high. Pennsylvanias democratic governor, Approval Ratings are sky high. Donald trumps are really bad right now, just like governor kemps, who listened to donald trump. Dr. Fauci, by the way, overwhelming majority of americans believe him and not donald trump and stooged in the media who blindly follow donald trump and are against dr. Fauci. This is a tko. Americans believe dr. Fauci and dont believe donald trump. Look at the numbers. Dr. Fauci has tried to stay out of a public fight with donald trump because he wants to be focused on whats happening in terms of Public Health. I guess it was a matter of time though until his science crossed the hunches of donald trump, and the president lashed out at dr. Fauci yesterday. You mention wisconsin. The Wisconsin Supreme Court struck out the governors stay at home orders yesterday, marking the first time a state order had been knocked down by a court of last report. The 43 ruling immediately lif s s all restrictions on businesses and gatherings imposed by the administrations order. Schools, however, will remain closed until the fall. That decision comes after the governor had begun lifting some restrictions because the spread of the virus has slowed across the state. To put any limits in place, the legislature will have to deal with the unpredictable of this outbreak by working together. The administration is set to submit a new plan today, though republicans have yet to offer one of their own. Last month, the wisconsin state Supreme Court overturned the governors order to postpone the states primary election, citing the public risk to coronavirus. At least three dozen wisconsin voters and poll workers tested positive for covid19 after the inperson election back on april 7th. Jonathan lemire, so we can take the wisconsin story as part of the larger theme, which is, you have republicans, the president of the United States, Supreme Court now in the state of wisconsin, helping to nudge america back open for business again. You have doctors, like dr. Anthony fauci, testifying before the senate about the dangers of doing just that. Thats the real tension right now, willie, were seeing within the white house and the broader administration. What happened with the president s comments yesterday, sort of boiled to the surface private frustrations he and his inner circle have had now for some weeks, according to our reporting, about dr. Fauci. The president has long opinibee leery of the immediate media atd headlines fauci has garnered. One of the fastest ways to get on the wrong side of the president is to get more Media Attention than that. Ask steve bannon about that. Even Jared Kushner at times. This case, it is dr. Fauci. More than that, they feel, fairly or not, dr. Fauci sometimes moderates his answers depending on the venue. He is sometimes a little more sticks to what the president wants to say when hes giving an interview with conservative media, and then less so with other networks. Now, i think dr. Faucis defenders, and there are many, is saying hes not playing politics. He is sticking to the guidelines. Thats what we heard in his Senate Testimony the other day. That clearly ra lly affected th president. You could see it yesterday. He was angry the night before or after faucis testimony, suggesting it was undercutting his arguments, some of his push to get americans back to work. He is trying to lead by example today. He is going to pennsylvania, a key battleground state. Hell be touring a mask factory there, paying tribute to the workers there. It is his second trip after one to arizona last week. You know, sort of saying, look, the white house is getting back to normal. So should owyou. Though, we, of course, have covid infections in the west wing itself. Jeffrey goldberg, we sit and listen to the president attacking fauci. A couple of his stooges in the media blindly attack fauci. You wonder where 36 of americans get their information to support donald trump. A lot of it in this pandemic, i mean, even more, 45 approve of his job as president. He sa how could they do that when hes been so wrong about the worst crisis since world war ii . A crisis thats killed over 80,000 people, that he never saw coming, that he told us not to worry about, that he was illprepared for. Said it was a hoax. Said the media was whipping it up as a hoax to get him. And then you get friends sending you, like i have, conspiracy theories about tony fauci, saying that he spread aids. Actually, more people died of aids because of his work on aids. Hes lined up to make tens of millions of dollars because he has stock in pharmaceutical companies. That he is just whipping up this pandemic and scaring people to make money. Guess what . Educated friends of mine, they believe this. They ask me to fact check this. You dont even know where to start. These conspiracy theories, that donald trump and donald Trump Supporters are spewing, people believe them. It is twisting and disporting i debate during this pandemic, especially about tony fauci. Not only tony fauci, but bill gates, about anyone who is trying to bring science. Even science that has and especially science that has big implications for our politics or economy. Thats the problem for donald trump related to fauci is. Fauci is saying, look, if you open up now, youll wind up closing later. Donald trump opportunity want to hear that, and never has wanted to hear that, obviously. The thing about conspiracy theories, theyre seductive, right . People who need coherence in their lives, people who dont cant hand it will complexity of modern life, they find the edges and the discord and the contradictions too much to bear, they seek out conspiracy theories because they explain everything. You know, they also seek them out because it externalizes the problem. In other words, im having a bad life, not because i did something wrong, but because large forces, anonymous forces, wealthy forces outside of me are messing with me and messing with my tribe. Remember, another piece of this is tribal. Donald trump is the chief of a tribe. Anyone who subverts or undermines with facts or data the tribal chief, that person has to be dealt with. So were in a a lot of weaknesses of human cognition, of human inability to process information are coming into play all at once. What we never had before ill end here what weve never had before is a president who abets that kind of thinking. We have had, to date, in the modern era, president s who say, actually, this is whats going on, and i am going to turn the podium over to the experts from the cdc, fda, fema, defense department, whatever, to explain why the world is ocomplicated. We dont have that anymore. Yeah, it shouldnt have to be news when a republican stands up for facts and science and scientists. Liz cheney did tweet support for dr. Fauci. Dr. Fauci is one of the finest Public Servants we have ever had. He is not a partisan. His only interest is saving lives. We need his expertise and his judgment to defeat the virus. All americans should be thanking him. Every day. And we do. Good for her. Good for her. His only interest is saving lives, and thats the part where our analysis may turn into critique here. When we see the president going on and on and on, trying to debunk fauci, veer off in five different directions, it seems to me, at the very least, that hes not focused on the one thing that could move us forward more quickly, which is testing. You know, overall support for a vaccine. It seems like theres all these entities. Whats left in the white house and the pandemic office. Working on multiple levels, some of them not necessarily productive. Nothing is going to get people back to work safely unless we can test. Thats where Congress Might step in. Kasie hunt, i know theyre working on a number of levels, speaking of republicans and democrats, to try and get mass testing out there, as well, and also to try to figure out how to help people through this economic crisis. Whats the latest . Reporter theres still a lot of questions, mika, about what happens next. I think what you heard from the fed chair, jerome powell, at the top of the show underscores an urgency to have them do Something Else big that a lot of Senate Republicans dont seem to be feeling right now. Theyre pretty split on whether this is something they need to rush out the door. I think the message from people who are looking at the underlying fundamentals of the economy are trying to send them very urgently is, no, actually, your job is not done yet. We still need more out the door, otherwise, this could potentially be way worse from an Economic Perspective than it needs to be. Youre right, congress is also working on testing, but that has turned into something of a partisan football. In some ways, i think it is stunning to people, but thats been one of the things that, in the final rounds of previous negotiations, has been a Sticking Point for people. Just to go back to the fauci point that you just showed, that tweet from liz cheney, dont forget, liz cheney, obviously, her family served in government for a long, long time. Dr. Fauci has served five president s. Three republicans, two democrats. You dont build trust like that with people in different parties if you are not what liz chi knee und cheney underscored there, which is he is not a partisan actor here. Her father faced Health Challenges when he was Vice President of the United States. Somebody that, you know, they built personal relationships with him. T