David ignatius, sam stein, matt miller and heidi prisbelli. Good to have you all with us this morning. And mika, that was quite a list of all the things that are coming at the president. I know he had to be shocked yesterday with the vote, the United States senate condemning the president over the khashoggi murder as it pertained, of course, to yemen. So now that problem is manifesting itself in policy. Very real policy matters and, of course, as the wall street journal editorializing this morning, it only gets worse with democrats taking over the house in a month. Its all shocking and theres a lot going on. I was off yesterday for a family matter, as you mentioned, but i wanted to address a term that i used on this show on wednesday that was vulgar. I knew it right away and i tweeted that it was a terrible choice of words and that i was sorry. But please allow me to say this facetoface. The term is crass and offensive and i apologize to everyone, especially the Lgbtq Community and to my colleagues for using it. It was a mistake. My father would have found it so unbecoming and disrespectful and he would have told me. I will work hard to be better. But i just wanted to say on camera, looking the viewers straight in the eye, i am really, really sorry. So now to the news. Nbc news confirms that donald trump was the third person in the room in an august 2015 meeting when his lawyer, Michael Cohen and National Enquirer publisher david pecker discussed ways the tabloid could help counter stories about trump and women. The meeting was first reported by the wall street journals as part of a nonprosecution agreement disclosed wednesday by federal prosecutors. The inquirers Parent Company, American Media in incorporated committed that two months into the campaign, pecker offered to help deal with negative stories about the president ial candidates relationships with women by assisting the campaign in identifying such stories so they could be purchased and their publication avoided. A year later in august of 2016 after trump had been nominated, and ami made a 150,000 payment in cooperation, consultation and concert with and at the request and suggestion of oner or more me members or agents of a 2016 president ial campaign. And yesterday, trump denied knowledge of wrongdoing related to the inquirer. I dont think and i have to go check. I dont think they even paid any money to that tabloid, okay . I dont think we made a payment to that tabloid. I dont think, a, we made a payment. And then you have the other situation and he lawyer look, trump didnt violate Campaign Finance laws and neither did the president. It didnt say that. Willie, aaron burr, as we all know, desperately wanted to be in the room where it happened. Donald trump in this case wanted to be as far away from the room where it happened, but unfortunately, he was there. Every day. We learn more information to show just how involved he was in this conspiracy, which i think prosecutors believe ultimately led to a felony. And that is a Campaign Finance law felony. Yeah. Well, if you look at the pieces of this puzzle, what we got this week were a couple of big ones with Michael Cohen. The second piece was American Media incorporated, the Parent Company of nationnational enqu with the 150,000 payment to Karen Mcdougall, the playboy model. They have admitted to as much. The third piece youre waiting for is the trump campaign. Now, matt miller, we have donald trump in the room with those two entities, michael co. En and American Media plotting and planning and discussing how to pay off women and how to suppress these stories so that he can be elected president of the United States. The trick has been to to connect these payments directly to the trump campaign. Do you think were any closer to that this morning . I think we absolutely are. Its important not that he was in the room just at the beginning of this conspiracy, but also what he said in that room. He looked the at david pecker and said what can you do . How can you help my campaign . We know he made an illegal contribution. The approximated says he doesnt think he ever reimbursed ami and he didnt. But that isnt the issue. The issue, the president helped hatch in this conspiracy from the beginning and now the two other people in this room are both cooperating witnesses for the government. So you have both of the people in the middle of this conspiracy from the beginning who are now telling the government everything that happened and everything the president said. So President Trump responded to his former lawyers sentencing yesterday rejecting Michael Cohens claim that it was his duty to cover up, quote, dirty deeds. The president claimed that prosecutors have a plot to get him by charging cohen with Campaign Finance violations. Nobody, except for me, would be looked at like this. Nobody. What about congress where they have a slush fund and millions and millions of dollars is paid out each year . They have a slush fund. They dont talk about Campaign Finance. Have they listed that on the their Campaign Finance sheets . No. Number two, if it was, its not even a violation. Number three, its a civil matter. I never directed him to do anything wrong. Thats why you pay them a lot of money, etcetera, etcetera. He is a lawyer. He represents a client. What he did was all unrelated to me, except for the two Campaign Finance judges. They put that on to embarrass me. They put those charges on to embarrass me. Theyre not criminal charge. What happened is either cohen or the prosecutors, in order to embarrass me, said listen, im making this deal for reduced time. He made a deal to embarrass me. In order to embarrass me, they cut his term down. Well cut you a deal, thats all it is. The word of the day, embarrass. David ignatius, weve all been shocked by this when it was come to his own legal defense, sitting there making these arguments. You would be hard pressed to find many members of congress who have been arounder for many years who would say this is personal. Ask those who are charged and went to jail during the abramoff matters. Can you think of anything more relevant to Campaign Finance laws and his intentional skirting of them . He said it, he had the sense of a retreating army getting shot at from many directions and trying to fend off the fire that he is his defense collapses inward. What i find interesting about this latest set of charges is that it sets up the broader argument about russia and russian help in the election by saying from late 2015, President Trump was somebody who to protect his election chances, was willing to work with people, work with this media county that was prepared to buy out negative stories, do anything to keep his campaign on track. Then we move into 2016 and we begin to have clear evidence of contact with russians who were offering to help the the campaign in different ways and keep raising that to trump associates. So i think theres a continuity in this narrative. Actually, i can theres more continuity and trumps defenses sound to me more and more fragile, none of that bombast that we were hearing a couple of weeks or months ago. Yeah. President trump spoke several times about the plea deal his former National Security adviser Michael Flynn took from the Mueller Investigation. First we heard from the president on twitter. He tweeted, they gave general flynn a great deal because they were embarrassed by the way he was treated. Here is impaired, the word of the day. The fbi said he didnt lie and they overrode the fbi. They want to scare everyone into making up stories that are not true by catching them in the smallest misstatements. Sad. Wait, im confused. Im confused. Wait, hes now saying that general flynn didnt lie . I mean, he said he didnt lie, he did, im so confused. He followed up on that tweet later in the day twice. The fbi said he didnt lie. I saw your tweet on that. But mueller said he did lie. So they took a man who is a general and a respected person and a nice man and i dont even know what he said abo about me because they scared him enough he didnt make up the story. But i have a feeling hes a tougher kind of a guy than cohen. But they took a general that they said didnt lie and they confinsed him he did lie and he made some kind of a deal. Now theyre recommending no time. You know why . Because they are embarrassed that they got caught. The fbi said Michael Flynn, a great person, they said he didnt lie. Mueller said, well, maybe he did and now theyre all having a big dispute. So i think its a great thing that the judge is looking into that situation. Thats an honor for a lot of terrific people. Hes freshing. Hes done it with manafort and now hes doing it with flynn. Like an old guy alone on a bridge fishing with, hoping he gets a bite, that maybe flynn, maybe manafort will listen to him and cross the prosecution and get pardoned. Its very obvious what hes doing. On fox news, Chris Wallace picked apart the president s defense and what judge appear Andrew Nepolitano had to say. Michael flynn, the president said mueller says he lies, flynn says he didnt lie. What he neglects to mention is that the president fired him three weeks after he became the National Security adviser. Why did he fire him . For lying. So the president fired the man for lying and he is now defending against lying. He says who was Michael Cohen . Michael cohen was the chief counsel for donald trump. He was the guy that he had to go see if you wanted to get something done with donald trump. He was his if fixer. And ive covered a lot of cases where somebody flips and the prosecution says, look, im sure that you will consider this guy who flipped an unsavory character. But remember, we didnt bring him into this case. It was donald trump who brought him into this case. It was donald trump who chose him to be his lawyer and his representative. And, you know, i kind of am surprised when the president says, look, i didnt tell him to do anything wrong. He was doing all these things. The last time i checked, a lawyer does what you asked him to do. Hes not supposed to break the law, but he does what he asked him to do. Its not like they go rogue on you. A very, very telling statement came out of the judges mouth yesterday, the judge finding that the president ordered and paid for Michael Cohen to commit a crime. Donald trump has said that was not a Campaign Violation because it wasnt involving the campaign. It was a damage control payment. Unfortunately, the president wasnt in the courtroom and the people who were were, the federal prosecutors who had a statement for david pecker, the guy that owns the National Enquirer, said it was for the campaign. The prosecutor said it was for the campaign. Michael cohen said it was for the campaign. The president wasnt there. Maybe he should have had lawyers there. So if you make an honest mistake in failing the to report something or if you take 100,000 and youre only supposed to take 2,500, you can correct that by returning the money, paying a fine and correcting the report. If you do this as part of a scheme to hide it, then its not a civil wrong, then its a crime. Thats what the judge found yesterday. Boom. Willie geist, a lot of good information right there from fox news. First of all, judge nepolitano lays it out clearly and perfectly. If you make a clerical error, thats fine. Youll pay a fine, everybody does it. But if theres a conspiracy to hide a Campaign Contribution as david pecker and his town and the judge and the prosecution said yesterday there was, thats when it becomes a felony. And what about Chris Wallace . My gosh, i know his dad, mike wallsace, would be proud of him. Hes tough as hell and, again, nails it on two points. It was donald trump who, when he fired general flynn, he fired him because he said he was lying to the fbi. He had to fire him because he was lying. And to add Something Else to the conversation, susan, that gets lost in this, donald trump was on tape with Michael Cohen. We got a tape this summer. This was in september of 2016 discussing a plan to play off Karen Mcdougall. And co. En talks about setting up a Shell Company to do that. Trump is heard on the tape saying pay with cash. Trumps only defense was it was a doctored tape and what kind of a lawyer tapes his client. Hes on tape talking about it with Michael Cohen. Hes on tape and hes been on tape for other things that actually, that access Hollywood Tape that did not hurt him among his base. What he has to be concerned about now is that those clips that you showed were were on fox. When you start seeing that network trying to give a straight response, he has to be concerned because not only that, other republican government officials are looking at that, other u. S. Senators. Thats where he has to worry about the cracks and thats what it is starting to lend itself to. So i think thats another reason why the president is out of town for two weeks to be away from from all this. So matt miller, what is likely to happy next with the Stormy Daniels Karen Mcdougall stories. Who makes the next move . I think the Southern District of new york will. If you look at what is coming next, its hard to see how the Trump Organization gets out of this without pleading guilty to a crime or being indicted. Theres an executive at that organization who approved the reimbursement of michael co. En had which is a fraudulent scheme. It was an illegal corporate contribution. We dont know who that executive was, but i think you can assume it was one of the children, whoever that is, eric or don jr jr. , has the criminal liability. You have the president under investigation, his foundation under investigation, his transition, his super pac, his white house investigation. You see a witness who the government flips in one investigation, provides incriminating investigation about another track. You saw mike flynn who was cooperating in as many as three different investigations. Rick gates has cooperated with with the Southern District of new york prosecutors. The president , the problem he has is he has to win all of these. He has to have all of these investigations not find any incriminating evidence. When you have exposure on so many fronts, it leaves that increasingly unlikely as an outcome for him. It really does. When you look at had his legal team or the lack of a legal team, it would take a Strong Law Firm of 500 lawyers in private practice to do the legal cleanup work and defense work on the 30, 40 years of possible fraud that donald trump has committed in his organizations over the past four decades and he remains legally unarmed. One of his lawyers who former lawyers who he seemed to trust the most over the past several decades was just on abc. Michael co. Hen who was sentence earlier this week decided in the week by going on Good Morning America. Here is a clip. Cease saying very clearly that he never directed you to do anything wrong. Is that true . I dont think theres anybody that believes that. First of all, nothing at the Trump Organization was ever done unless it was run through mr. Trump. He directed me, as i said in my allocution, and i said as well in the plea. He directed me to make the payments. He directed me to become involved in these matters. Included the one with mcdougall which was really between him and david pecker and david peckers lawyers. He was trying to hide what you were doing, correct . Correct. And he knew it was wrong . Of course. And he was doing that to help his election . You have to remember at what point in time that this matter came about, two weeks or so before the election, post the billy bush comments. So yes, he was very concerned about how this would affect the election. And for everybody watching, that is what is so key. This is happening post access Hollywood Tape. Donald trump knew at that point that the possibility of his victory was fading. If Something Else came out at the very end, he knew that his chances, any outside chances of getting elected were finished. That is why sam stein, the cover up, the hush money, the and now you have david pecker with ami saying yes, we did it to help him win the election. We did it to help his campaign. That is just devastating and it would be devastating for any republican or any democrat to hide that significant of a payment from the federal Election Commission and more importantly, the american voters. Yeah. I mean, lost in a lot of this is note that these affairs didnt happen in 2016. These affairs alleged affairs, sorry. Happened many, many years ago. The reason they were surfaced in 2016 was because of the electoral context in which they were being considered. So the idea that this was not campaign related just doesnt pass the smell test. It was clearly a campaign related payment by trump. But i am struck by how far weve gone down the rabbit hold here and i dont think this helps trump at all. If you recall, his first instinct was to deny that any payment ever took place. Then he told people to ask Michael Cohenen abo about it. Now his stance is a payment may have taken place but it was done without my understanding of the legal context of it. Then we have him talking about how no one is ever prosecuted for Campaign Finance law. Trump pardoned someone for Campaign Finance law. He knows Campaign Finance laws are, in fact, enforced by the federal government. But one of the problems he has is hes told so many different lies about this situation that its incredibly impossible to believe right now. One last thing to your point about the legal team hes surrounding himself with who seem incapable to handle the task at hand, we were talking with Rudy Giuliani about the cohen result, the plea. And he was talking about the crime. His point to us about why this was insignificant was the following, quote, nobody got killed. Nobody got robbed. End quote. I find that remarkable to dismiss any crime because no one got killed or robbed. There are crimes other than murder and robbery. Yeah, there are. And the republican lawmakers who pass these laws cannot now suggest, as orrin hatch has suggested, that you can just brush laws aside that, quote, anybody can be arrested for anything these days. That is just an embarrassment and i hope my former Republican Party moves past that. Heidi, i had a great torts law professor at the university of Florida Law School that would always say to me and say to the rest of the class, just have a basic straight face test. Before you try something out in front of a jury, try it in front of the mirror first before you go to court. And if you cant keep a straight face while youre making that argument, go to plan b. Donald trumps arguments regarding this payoff and suggesting its not a conspiracy and suggesting that it wasnt related to the campaign, thats just not going to pass anybodys straight face test. Its not going to pass any judges or prosecutors or juries straight face test. I wonder if the republicans will think it suffices. And i think, joe, the timing of the discussion youve been having here about this being clearly related to the election, last night we learned even someone more damning about why this would be seen as a legal and political blend, and that is it goes back to august 2015 when you had trump in the room with cohen and pecker about, hey, i could have a woman problem and thats what we learned yesterday which completely flies n face of what giuliani told us at the time when the access Hollywood Tape came out that the payments were were made simply to protect his marriage and his wife. No, here we have evidence that this was concocted at the very outset of the campaign as a conspiracy to try and cover up any problem from any woman who would raise her voice during the campaign. In materials of the hill, we still have the usual players like orrin hatch, grassley saying cohen is a liar, you cant trust him. And thats inspite of the fact that like weve said on this show, you have documentary evidence. Even if you think cohen is a liar, you have that tape, you have the receipts. That is why i think you are seeing many, many more senators like rob portman, like shelly moore, saying we are going to wait for this Mueller Report to come out before putting ourselves on the record and then, of course, the most important one showing a shift on over the weekend was senator rubio. Who essentially said no one is above the law which said a bit of a shudder, i think, through the white house. And youre probably going to see very few snoerts like him going on the record vehemently defending this president as moremore and more of these shoes drop. And well talk to one of the wall street journal reporters who broke the story that the president s inaugural committee is being investigated by the feds. And we will be talking to Dave Ignatius about a stunning vote that happened in the United States senate yesterday regarding yemen and the United States position towards yemen and what it means for donald trump and what it may mean for the people in that wartorn land who are facing the most horrific of conditions in an ongoing battle. The greatest wish of all. Is one that brings us together. The lincoln wish list event is here. Sign and drive off in a new lincoln with 0 down, 0 due at signing, and a complimentary first months payment. Only at your lincoln dealer. So shark invented duo clean. While deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. To me, hes,s phil mickelson, well, dad. And fearlessly devours piles. So when his joint pain from Psoriatic Arthritis got really bad, it scared me. And what could that pain mean . Joint pain could mean joint damage. 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Three gop senators did not vote. However, outgoing house spoeake paul ryan blocked any votes on the house on the resolution for the rest of the year. A spokesperson for the speaker says it is, quote, based on a factually faulty premise and blocking the resolution isnt as critical as some are making it out to be. Well, so there is yet another black stain on paul ryans legacy here. He uses a farm bill as a vehicle to to to provide aid and comfort to those who murdered a Washington Post column it. And i suppose its only fitting that given the number of ways hes disappointed so many people that had so much faith in him going in as speaker that he chooses to go out there this way. David, its stunning that mbs would be given cover in a farm bill from the house of representatives in normal circumstances. I guess these are no normal circumstances. But lets talk about the United States senate. How significant is it that you have republicans in the senate that are demanding an end to the war in yemen and you have democrats who are going to be taking over the house in a month . Joe, this amounts to a vote of no confidence in mohammad bin salman by the u. S. Senate. Its not going to have Practical Impact. The yemen vote needs to be met by action by the house and paul ryan has prevented that. But the senate couldnt speak more clearly to saudi arabia, to the crown prince, that we dont trust or believe you and that you must take steps to end this nightmare of war in yemenen. The one ray of hope that people should take is that in the negotiations that are going on to try to stabilize and end the war in yemen, in sweden under the leadership of a british negotiator, theres been some progress in the last day. Theres a ceasefire in the key port of hodeda through which all the supplies needed to keep people in this country alive have to travel. And i think thats a result of even saudi arabia understanding that this war has to end, that support for it in the United States, the expectation of u. S. Weapons to support it, thats basically ending. The uae came to that position a couple of weeks ago. So i think in terms of saving lives, we need to focus on the process in sweden and hope the saudis get the message. I know that saudis are going to tell mohammad bin salman you have to end the war in yemen. You have to end the crazy feud with qatar, the neighboring cup, and youve got to start releasing Political Prisoners from jail. Those are the only ways that the confidence thats been shattered can be are regained. I want to ask you as a columnist from the Washington Post, the death of your colleague played, also, a very big role in the vote on yemen yesterday. He know your publisher, fred ryan, has announced the post is running full page ads, of course, condemning this murder and theyre going to keep it in the front of everybodys mind over well, as fred ryan says, until justice is served. Do the saudis are they beginning to understand that this may be a breach that cannot be repaired with mbs are running that country if you now have the republicans in the senate, democrats in the house, and the Washington Post all going to be all linking arms to make sure that justice is done here. Do the saudis understand that . Do their allies in the region understand that . Two things to say, joe and mika, the first is im speaking as a Washington Post employee, 33 years. Im really proud of my paper for standing behind me colleague, my friend, Jamal Khashoggi. His murder was gruesome. And the paper has not flinched. Every day, the paper has been trying to push and push and demand accountability and were beginning to see it with the senate vote, with other actions. So i just want to give a shout out to my colleagues and especially our publisher, fred ryan. Second, i think within the the kingdom, there finally is an understanding that something is going to have to be done, that people are frightened of mohammad bin salman. If anything else, you learn this guy will do just about anything to hold all the power. So theres a National Fear factor. But despite that, from what i hear, the first rumblings of real politics, i dont think youll see a move towards change until king salman passes. And we dont know how far away that is. Mohammad bin salman retains very tight control over power. But this is a shock wave that the senate has set out and i think that shock wave is going to hit saudi arabia and it will have effect. Cant predict exactly how. I hope the first effect is to end this terrible war in yemen. So, david, the vote to take away american aid to the saudiled war in yemen was 5641. It was cosponsored by mike lee, a republican. They got seven republicans to vote for it. Does it have any real Practical Impact if the house doesnt do anything about it or is this a message from donald trump from some republicans, but 56 United States senators to say most americans couldnt say if you asked them what the National Security interest or any American Interest is on being on the ground in yemenen a and participating in a war that has created a yammin. T symbolic. Its a message to the saudis. Its a message to donald trump that the support for american involvement in this war is ending. So it basically provides a window. Theres a window until the house comes back and the house is sure to enact something similar to get this war settled. And mbs, i think, understands that. So id watch very closely diplomacy over the next six, eight weeks, because everybody now knows the american support is ending, even though it hasnt ended yet. Up next, an investigation into misuse of funds and pay to play. The latest trumprelated scandal they keep piling up. Next on morning joe. chime [narrator] meet sharks newest robot vacuum. It powerfully cleans from floors to carpets, even pet hair, with ease, and now for cleaning surfaces above the floor, it comes with a built in shark handheld. One dock, two sharks. The shark ion robot cleaning system. This didnt have anything to do with the president. The the president was focused on the transition and building out a new government and preparing to take office. The role that the president had in the inauguration was to raise his hand and take the oath. Same thing for the first lady. She wasnt engaged in this process. Thats White House Press secretary Sarah Sanders last night denying that the president or the first lady had anything to do with his inaugural committee spending. That is following a new wall street journal report about a new investigation growing out of the raid of Michael Cohens office or residence. And it says, quote, the criminal probe by the manhattan u. S. Attorneys office which is in its early stages is examining where some of the top donors gave access to the Trump Administration, policy collections or to influence the decisions. Joining us now, Rebecca Davis obrien. Great report. And an amazing number. Lets start with the top line. 107 million in donations given to the Inauguration Committee when you stack that up over past inaugurals. President trumps was 43 million. His second. His first were 53. Bushes were 40 and 42 million each. Why so much to donald trump . You know, im not sure i can answer that question. But the sheer number, and its not just what they took in,ite what was spent. So you have to start thinking about not just how much money came in, but why that came in afterward. And, you know, the donors tend to want especially at the national level, they want to get in on the ground and if theyre not, they have to make up for it. Im aware of a lot of donors who just gave right away because they were like, oh, we didnt see this coming. So its not all nefarious, but i think there is some concern about who those donors all were. They werent all necessarily the typical corporate donors as were finding out. Yeah. I think theres nothing new about money in politics and certainly donors give with the expectation of having their voices heard. What were seeing here is the volume and secondarily questions asked not just by the manhattans Attorneys Office but the special counsels office about the identity of some of those donors and what they were seeking or what they received. Theres Different Levels or grades of this kind of concern about pay to play. So the u. S. Attorneys office digs into that, what have they found exactly . Where there people who you would find unusual to be giving to the president who would want access to the new administration . My understanding is that the special counsels office has been looking in part at that already and there have been questions raised over the last year or two about the identity of some of those donors. We understand some new evidence that grew out of the Michael Cohen investigation that relates primarily not to the intake, but to the spending. Matt miller has a question for you. Matt. My question is about that Michael Cohen connection to it. You reported in the story that apparently prosecutors have a tape he made of himself in a conversation with an adviser to the first lady who worked on the inauguration saying that he was concerned about the spending. Any sense of why he taped that conversation . Its an unusual thing to do. We know hes done it in the past when hes trying to, i think, protect himself. Any sense why he taped it and what it was he was concerned about . Im not going to speculate as to why Michael Cohen may have taped that conversation, but its a reminder to us that even author Michael Cohens sentencing took place earlier this week that that investigation to him is going to continue to have reverberations as the months. Maybe years go on. That recording, it suggests that even though he didnt have a direct role in the inaugural, he was somebody so close to the Trump Administration at the time that he was considered an ear to miss wallcot who is the woman who spoke to him about her concerns about the inaugural spending. Hi, rebecca. According to your reporting, it says these payments came primarily from the middle Eastern Countries or at least the focus is on qatar, saudi arabia and the uae. Can you tell us more about that . Also unexplained at this hour is based on my own reporting why during the campaign the president opened up a number of Shell Companies in saudi arabia. So there seems to be a lot going on as pertains in the least. I think the reporting youre referring to is from the New York Times which came out with a story yesterday about the investigations into the inaugural fund. They were focussing more on the identity of donors to fund and to the super pac that was dedicated to Donald Trumps election. Thats been going on for a while and, obviously, the wall street journal and a number of other organizations have been doing a fair amount of great reporting on donors and concerns about those donors and what they were seeking. So as you point out, its not unusual for an inaugural committee to get some influence. Is there anything unusual about this beyond that number . Well, i think its a lot of those folks were giving in and entities were giving in amount of a Million Dollars or more which is sort of striking and some of them, they were these established supporters of the president and they played a role, some of them, in the inaugural and transition period. So that certainly is striking and i guess, you know, what else is, you know, prosecutors will figure out what else interesting is in there. If media has a job too here. Theyre looking at it as we speak. Rebecca davis obrien, good to see you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Coming up next on morning joe, mike allen joins us with a look at what axios is calling the most sequential relationship in american politics. Plus, a scoop on the chief of staff contender the president met with just last night. Morning joe is coming right back. Voicecommand navigation with waze wifi Wireless Charging 104 cubic feet of cargo room and seating for 8. Now thats a sleigh. Ford expedition. Built for the holidays. 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House speaker designate nancy pelosi sharing some of her private conversations with President Trump. Joining us now is the cofounder of axios, mike allen. Mike after you say happy friday, this morning axios is look at trump versus pelosi and the showdown that will affect the next two years. You have a former House Democratic adviser saying that speaker pelosis sole job in 2019 will be to serve trump to the 2020 nominee on a platter. Mika, shes ready for it. Think about it. This showdown, both sides are loathed by the other. Both sides have an iron grip on their parties and both of themselves think of themselves as master deal makers. One of the president s supporters said to me he already seems to be trying to treat her as the next Hillary Clinton, as his foil. But mika, how about this for asymmetric warfare. Nancy pelosi starting january 3rd when everything changes will control the targets of investigation against him. She can stop any bill. She ultimately is going to control impeachment. I think she, i think she showed in the oval office the other day that shes quite ready to push back in realtime, which has been a problem, i think, for a lot of members of congress on how to react to him. We can see that hes not used to it, that reporting he went into his dining room afterwards and threw papers around. The president is not used to being talked back to, especially by a powerful woman. When he tried to explain to her about what her position was, she pushed right back at him and as we talked to people around her on the hill they said were going to see a lot more of this. Shes ready to play these cards. She knows she has a high hand going in. And he by showing that she could get his goat as my mother would say, put himself in a weaker spot. So real quick, mike, the president says a lot of people want the chief of staff job. So who is in line for it . Mika, your friend governor christie was at the white house last night. The president were told thinking very seriously about former governor Chris Christie of new jersey. Hes politically savvy. Hes tough. Hes a lawyer. He was an early supporter of the president. Of course a former federal prosecutor, his skills with investigations just may come in handy. Of course a big drawback, as you know, cross ways with the kushners, never a good place to be when you go into this white house. Mike allen, what day is it . Its happy friday and happy weekend, mika. Okay. Well try. Thank you very much mike allen. Coming up former u. S. Attorney for the Southern District of new york Daniel Goldman puts into perspective the avalanche of bad legal news we saw for the president this week. And from the Senate Judiciary and Foreign Relations committees democrat chris coons who says a former President Trump could be indicted. Morning joe is back in a moment. The United States Postal Service makes more holiday deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. 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Tell your doctor if you have liver or kidney problems. Common side effects include increased blood pressure, common cold or flu symptoms,. Sinus irritation, dry mouth, urinary tract infection, bladder inflammation,. Back or joint pain, constipation, dizziness, and headache. Need some help managing your oab symptoms along the way . Ask your doctor if myrbetriq is right for you, and visit myrbetriq. Com to learn more. I dont think and i have to go check, i dont think they paid any money to that tabloid. I love how he has to check. Its like he has a ledger somewhere for his illegal payments. I dont see anything about a hush payment. Oh, wait a minute. Basically trump is saying when he told Michael Cohen to pay Stormy Daniels and Karen Mcdougal he thought it was all legal. But back in april he also said this. Right. First it was i never had sex with those women then it was i never paid those women. Now its assumed it was legal to pay those women. Next week hell say he didnt know they were women. Welcome back to morning joe. Its friday, december 14th, 2018, along with joe, willie and me we have republican strategist and msnbc political analyst susan. Columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post, david ignatius. Politics senator, sam stein. And joining the conversation you list engineer prize winning editorial writer for the Washington Post and msnbc news, jonathan. And a fellow at the Brennan Center for justice and an msnbc legal analyst Daniel Goldman. Good to have you. Willie, late night comics were poking fun and poking holes in the president s arguments on these payments that have become the center of obviously prosecutors focus. Also last night Kellyanne Conway went on chris cuomo show and they had a long discussion where she says very little but denies everything and calls him christopher a lot. Its become a bit of a regular occurrence there. After Kellyanne Conway got off the show, her arguments were undercut and blasted by somebody on twitter who says this, given that trump has repeatedly lied about the daniels and mcdougal payments and given that he lies about virtually everything tomorrow the point that his own former personal attorney described him as a blanking liar, why should we take his word over that of federal prosecutors and, of course, we gave that away. It was actually Kellyanne Conways husband, George Conway, who actually i dont know if you can say that youre undercutting your wifes arguments if there is, and i mean this with all due respect, literally nobody that was buying what she was selling last night, the arguments on chris cuomo show. The reason why late night comics can make jokes about the president s explanations is because they are laughable. His defense makes no sense. It changes from one day to the next. I go back to what sam stein is reporting this morning from the daily beast, when you have your big public attorney, your lead defense, Rudy Giuliani going out and saying of the alleged Campaign Violation quote nobody got killed, nobody got hurt, thats your defense that nobody got killed . Its incredible. Now nbc news confirms that donald trump was the third person in the room in an august 2015 meeting when his lawyer Michael Cohen and National Enquirer publisher david pecker discussed ways how the tabloid to counter negative reports. As part of a nonprosecution agreement disclosed wednesday by federal prosecutors, the enquirers Parent Company admitted that two months into the campaign quote, pecker offered to help deal with negative stories about that president ial candidates relationship with women by, among other things, assisting the campaign in identifying such stories so they could be purchased and their publication avoid. A year later in august of 2016 after trump had been nominated ami made a 150,000 payment quote in cooperation, consultation and concert with and at the request and suggestion of one or more members or agents of a candidates 2016 president ial campaign. Yesterday President Trump denied knowledge of wrongdoing related to the National Enquirer. I dont think and i have to go check, i dont think they even paid any money to that tabloid. I dont think we made a payment to the tabloid. I dont think a, we made payment. Then you have the other situation and every lawyer look, trump didnt violate Campaign Finance and neither did the president. Dan goldman youre watching this week unfold with Michael Cohen, American Media and now what were learning yesterday of donald trump participating, which by the way as we were discussing at the break we already knew because we heard it on a tape over the summer participating in the coordination of how these payments should be made. Youre sitting there as a prosecutor thinking what . I would be salivating at a Closing Argument to respond to these shifting defenses. They are laughable. They dont make sense. They misstate the law. It doesnt matter whether the campaign made the payment or not. Thats not the law. And, you know, trumps shifting defense dooms him anyway, but the latest defense that Michael Cohen just made this up, and that, you know, because a lot of people, willie, as you know make up crimes that they committed in order to plead guilty to them and become convicted felons. That happens all the time. So none of this stuff makes any sense, but from an evidence perspective and a prosecutors perspective the ami and nonprosecution agreement and then the revelation that trump was the third man in the room is the nail in the coffin a criminal case. Because you now have Michael Cohen pointing the finger directly at trump. You have david pecker and ami pointing the finger at trump. Im certain there are documents that support both of those witness statements and then add to it the recording that you just referenced where trump clearly knows what Michael Cohen is talking about on that recording in connection to the ami payments. This is a slam dunk case. So, but daniel, what can the Southern District do with a slam dunk case if hes president. Perhaps he thinks because hes president hell never be held accountable for breaking the law this way. Thats clearly what he thinks. Its clearly what Rudy Giuliani thinks because they are just trying to set this up for potential impeachment proceedings. Is it true . Well, yeah. Right now the department of Justice Policy like it or not is that a sitting president cannot be indicted. In order to indict the president you would have to go up the chain in the department of justice and reverse the policy. This is Donald Trumps department of justice, the office of Legal Counsel is the office that wrote that 20 page opinion that seemed to twist themselves in a pretzel to authorize the appointment of Matthew Whitaker as ag. A lot of legal scholars really question the basis for that opinion. So its hard to imagine that that office which is the office that has to reverse this policy would do so, so i think what we may end up seeing is two reports. One report from the Southern District of new york about President Trumps Campaign Finance crimes, and one report from Robert Muellers office and then it goes to congress. The way the system is supposed to work, it goes to congress, if a president commits a crime the congress impeaches and the president gets charged. I think thats where we may ultimately be headed. Thats the process. Be very interesting to see. Didnt exactly happen that way with bill clinton. He was impeached but acquitted despite committing perjury. Let me ask you, daniel, how closely are mueller and the Southern District of new york working together and do you see any inherent tensions between those two entities . Well, i think what were seeing this week and some of the revelations now about the inauguration investigation where rick gates is helping the Southern District and we know that Michael Cohen has been meeting with Robert Mueller, i think theres a lot more collaboration than we realize. I think, by the way, we know 1 or 2 of all the information and evidence that the Southern District and Robert Mueller have right now so its hard to imagine what more is coming. But theres a lot. Yes, in the Michael Cohen case we did see some tension in that Robert Muellers office wrote a quite favorable letter supporting Michael Cohens cooperation with them saying that he has been fully forthright and truthful and provided a lot of useful information. The Southern District said Michael Cohen would not cooperate with them on some of their investigations, and as a result of that he only got a modest sentence reduction from what he otherwise would get. So the two offices do things a little bit differently in terms of cooperating witnesses. It ends up getting into little inside baseball. To the extent theres tension thats where it may lie but they clearly had have seemed to work it out and they are collaborating i think more than we realize. Good morning america just finished airing a clip of Michael Cohen. Lets play that and see what the president s former fixer had to say. Hes saying very clearly he never directed to you do anything wrong. Is that true . I dont think theres anybody that believes that. First of all nothing at the Trump Organization was done unless it was run through mr. Trump. He directed me, as i said, and i said as well in the plea, he directed me to make the payments, he directed me to become involved in these matters, including the one with mcdougal which was really between him and david pecker and then. David peckers counsel. I just reviewed the documents in order to protect him. I gave loyalty to someone who truthfully does not deserve loyalty. He was trying to hide what you were doing, correct correct. He knew it was wrong . Of course. He was doing that to help his election . You have to remember at what point in time that this matter came about, two weeks or so before the election, post the billy bush comments. Yes, he was very concerned about how this would affect the election. Michael cohen told Good Morning America he gave a great deal of information to the special Counsel Office as into add more of a chill to the president. Doesnt it seem fascinating, this guy just got convicted and hes going and doing media rounds now and its almost like he wants to cause as much damage to his former boss as possible. Well, i mean who could blame him . This is a guy who went on television during the campaign saying that he would take a bullet for donald trump. That he was so loyal, that he felt like he was basically part of the family. And then when everything got messed up, when he got into trouble and was looking for a life preserver to be thrown to him by the president he felt burn. Understandably he felt burned, he felt disloyalty to someone he showed absolute loyalty to. After his offices were raided, he comes around, he cooperates with federal authorities. Hes now facing hes been sentenced to three years in prison. What does he have to lose by getting out there, talking to the press, telling his side of the story and making sure that, you know, rhetorically speaking he can push the knife into trump as much as he feels trump pushed the knife into him when he got into trouble. Boy, you look at those pictures and regardless of your feelings about Michael Cohen, regardless about your feelings about donald trump, you look at those children and you look at Michael Cohens wife, its so sad and its such a tragedy for them and for that entire family. You cant even begin to imagine what they are going through but thats one of the reasons that Michael Cohen decided to just take the deal, take the years and move forward. He wanted to get this behind him and behind his family. So sad. So, willie geist, lets go back for a moment and remember when we were in cleveland, what an incredible town, cleaver, by the way. But we were in cleveland for the convention and who were the three people that were speaking the most for donald trump at the time . Paul manafort, had him on the show. He was the president s campaign manager. He was the guy that donald trump told me personally, i got to get him on board because hell get me the delegates so i can win the nomination. I think he told us in california and colorado too. He did tell us that. Pats m thats paul manafort. General flynn who had one of the prominent roles at the convention especially when he famously said lock her up. Then you had Donald Trumps fixer Michael Cohen also going and speaking with donald trump and flynn and manafort extolling the virtues of donald trump. How extraordinary that just a couple of years later three people who were the president s face convention, at the convention are either in jail or going to jail. I would add to that list not going to jail but david pecker was a great protector of donald trump at the time as we learned now from these documents and by its own admission American Media was there to protect donald trump. It was a way for donald trump to plant stories about the campaign bted cruz, for example, when he felt threatened by somebody or media personality, for example, they might put a story in the National Enquirer. We have one more line from the interview of Michael Cohen which should be very chilling. Michael cohen saying of donald trump quote i will not be the villain of his story. In other words, i was blindly loyal forever as he said to george stephanopoulos. I said the right things. Im not doing it any more. As you point out i turned over everything i know from 30 years to the special counsels office. Sure did. David ignatius, think back to that 2016 campaign. Think back to the convention. Now look at all the people who are in jail, indicted, who pled guilty. There are no parallels. Certainly didnt see this until nixon was run out of office. Everybody going to jail. And it seems that the legal grip is tightening even more around this president. Can he survive . Theres such a sense of hubris, arrogance in that snapshot of trump at the convention, seemingly on top of the world. Were beginning to get a theory of the case, i think, listening to all the discussions this morning about a president who was willing to do anything to suppress bad news about himself thats a lot of what these Michael Cohen National Enquirer stories are about and who was willing to do anything to get Bad Information about his rival, Hillary Clinton, which is the russia side of this investigation. And i wonder if the two sides arent going to come together in as i say a unified theory of the case of what he was trying to do from that convention when he was on top of the world through all the subsequent months. So sam stein, amid all of this, and specifically in the hush money payment story, the president is, i think its safe to say talking out of both sides of his mouth saying that Michael Cohen was a small level, low level player, pr guy but he was also a lawyer who paid a lot of money in the same interview on fox news. But amid all of this hes got to figure out who is going to be his chief of staff and i just wonder who would come in there, because i would figure they would need a team of attorneys to prepare for whatever happens in the future at this point. No. Its a thankless job, made more complicated, obviously, by the impending Mueller Investigation and also what seems likely to be an onslaught of investigations into everything from his campaign conduct to his tax returns from a democratic run house. He has to find someone to take over that role. Were talking to people in his orbit, former aides, current aides about the type of person who might take that job and we were struck by what they described as sort of two competing interests. One is that trump understanding fully well at this junk youre the he basically needs someone who will manage his vision and let him be essentially the chief of staff and execute that vision for him. Trump is also sort of tied to the glitzy highprofile art. He wants to bring in a big name because he thinks it will give him good headlines. Thats the type of alpha personality he would slash. The john kelly experiment didnt work out as planned because those are two competing personalities. Trump has a big decision on his hands and a Government Shutdown thats likely to happen in the next coming week. I was surprised to see yesterday, hell be taking a 16 day vacation in maralago over the christmas break starting next week. I dont understand im not a politician, joe might be able to answer this. I dont understand how it works that as the government will shutdown, hes going to be maralago, likely playing golf as people are furloughed all the while he said he would be proudly owning the shutdown. Seems politically risky. The walls seem to be closing in. This does seem to be a particularly perilous legal point and political point for the president. Some of the finest cliches used on the set of morning joe. Yeah. I could keep going. Sam, you use your cliches and throw them at us all as effectively as a cy young pitcher throws curve balls. I know your professors at dartmouth are very proud of you. They are holding their head in shame, yes. No, not at all. Quick question for jonathan and also for Daniel Goldman, and sort of a two part question. One, and daniel ill ask you. Right now based on everything that you know, obviously projecting forward, can the president survive legally . Can he avoid serious ramifications and then ill go to jonathan and say knowing everything you know right now can the president survive politically to be driven from office during his first term. I think legally we already now know that the president has committed a felony in order to obtain the office of the presidency. He will likely not be charged with that and in part hes not going to be charged because even if he could be, forget about the doj policy, Michael Cohen decided not to fully cooperate with the Southern District of new york. So hes not a witness available to them right now. And, joe, when you were talking a little bit about Michael Cohen, certainly you have to feel very bad for his family. But what hes saying doesnt add up. If he really wanted to get this over with and get back to his family he would have fully cooperated, agreed to be a witness, agree to postpone his sentencing so he could get an even more reduced sentence. And for some unknown reason to us, hes not doing that. And i do not buy daniel, that jumped out to me a couple of days ago when i saw that. I did not understand. Maybe you can help us understand since you worked in the Southern District of new york, why would somebody in his position choose to go to jail for three years instead of signing a document and fully committing . You know as we say on this show all the time, quoting napoleon, if youre going to take vienna, take vienna. Cooperation is all or nothing in the Southern District of new york. When you decide to cooperate you have to admit to all of your crimes, not just to the ones that the prosecutors know about but any others you may have committed that they dont know about. And you have to admit and explain and provide information about the crime that other people committed. So the only logical explanation i can read from this is that Michael Cohen either doesnt want to admit to additional crimes he may have committed because hes concerned that will actually increase his sentence so much that his cooperation could not reduce it to less than three years, or hes trying to protect someone else thats close to him. Hes been very open and eager to cooperate with the special counsel where hes cooperating against donald trump where he clearly is trying to get on the right side of history against. But not cooperating with the Southern District and that investigation relates more to his core and the crimes that ultimately drove his three year sentence. Had nothing to do with donald trump. They were tax fraud and bank fraud. The only thing, and its pure speculation, he must be protecting somebody thats very close to him that he loves and that he does not want to, like you said, goes to his core not so much donald trump. Maybe thats why he decided ill go to jail for three years and not bring Something Else into it. Jonathan, can he survive politically . Will donald trump, again, were speculating here but based on everything we know at the end of the year 2018 is he going to survive the next two years politically . Look, if we were talking about a normal presidency, joe, i would say no he would not survive. But as weve seen joins june 2015 donald trump defies conventional political wisdom. What i would say is right now i do not think he would survive politically. One democrats are taking back the gavel on january 3rd. Nancy pelosi as youve been talking about during the show will become speaker. She will control investigations. You have a democratic majority that will be itching to provide oversight. But then the other thing that you have out there and i think as mr. Goldman has pointed out many times, special counsel Robert Mueller knows a whole lot more than we know right now. We only know single digit percentage of what Robert Mueller knows. When Robert Mueller puts out his report, issues more indictments, more cooperation agreements, that will give, i think, the basis and maybe even the political cover to democrats to make a move on the president politically to impeach him. Again, if we were in normal political times with a normal presidency, i think a normal President Donald Trump would be impeached and hauled before the senate to face a trial and right now those things are not in the offing also because republicans even to this day are Still Standing behind the president and making excuses for the legal trouble that he is in right now. Unbelievable. All right. Jonathan, thank you so much. Its great seeing you. Come back soon. Daniel, thank you as well. Come back soon. We appreciate your legal analysis. Coming up next on morning joe well hear more from Michael Cohen who is speaking out on his first interview after getting jail time for covering up the president s quote dirty deeds. Plus well talk to senator Christopher Coons after the senates resolution condemning the Saudi Crown Prince and ratcheting up pressure on the president to do more about the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. You pleaded guilty to lying to congress. Yes. So why should we believe you now . Because the special counsel stated emphatically that the information that i gave to them was credible and helpful. Theres a substantial amount of information that they possess that corroborates the fact that i am telling the truth. I just got my cashback match, is this for real . Yep. We match all the cash back new cardmembers earn at the end of their first year, automatically. Whoo i got my money hard to contain yourself, isnt it . 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Show me decorating shows. This is staying connected with xfinity to make moving. Simple. Easy. Awesome. Stay connected while you move with the best wifi experience and twohour appointment windows. Click, call or visit a store today. Joining us now member of the judiciary and Foreign Relations Committee Democratic senator chris coons of delaware. Senator, i would like to start with a story we havent got to yet but seems to really be high on the list of priorities here. A 7yearold girl taken into Border Patrol custody last week for crossing into the United States illegally with her father has died. U. S. Customs and Border Protection said yesterday that the girl from guatemala died of dehydration and shock after she was taken into custody on the evening of december 6th near lordsburg, new mexico. The girl was part of a group of 163 people who approached u. S. Agents and turned themselves in. According to records eight hours after being in custody the girl began having seizures and she was airlifted to an el Paso Hospital where she died. Now according to a statement from officials, the girl quote reportedly had not eaten or consumed water for several days. A dhs spokesperson tells nbc news quote on behalf of the department of Homeland Security our sincerest condolences go out to the family of the child. Border patrol agents took every possible step to save the childs life. Under the most trying of circumstances as fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters we empathize with the loss of any child. Senator the agency said its investigating the incident to ensure appropriate policies were followed, but isnt the Bigger Picture extremely concerning, especially given that we were dealing with separation of children from their families at the border and how these people are being treated when they are on american soil . Mika, absolutely. This calls on all of us to bring a moral lens to this story, to look at how were treating families, families with children, families who are coming to this country out of desperation. My predecessor, joe biden, when he was Vice President led an effort to invest in trying to stabilize and improve the quality of life, the rule of law in countries like guatemala and honduras and el salvador so tens of thousands of parents wouldnt feel compelled by violence in those countries to risk the thousands of miles of travel often across desert to try and make it to our southern border. Thats a policy that was supported in a bipartisan way here in congress but this administration has cut the funding for those programs significantly over the last two years. I think we should do everything we can to help make sure families dont feel compelled to make that risky trip, but once they do, Border Patrol needs to do everything they can to avoid this kind of senseless and needless loss of life, particularly for children who present at our border in really terrible condition. Senator, you talked about having a moral lens on this issue. And we will, obviously, im sure you will be investigating as will the senate exactly what happened with this young 7yearold girl. Such a tragic story. There are also so many tragedies unfolding in yemen every day. In a war thats been sponsored in large part by the United States, trying to do the bidding of mbs. Yesterday an extraordinary vote that was taken in the United States senate actually saw the Republican Senate rebuking the president and saying that there should be an end to this war in yemen, an end to the funding of the slaughter of yemen. What are the prospects when the new congress is sworn in, in january, early january, that this bill passes the senate again and then with a democratic house, its not trying to cover up for mbs, that this actually becomes law of the land . I think the chances are fairly strong, joe, because number of senators both republican and democrat who have had grave concerns about the conduct of the war in yemen for a long time but hadnt spoken out about it, hadnt voted against it and who now have as a result of the brutal abduction, torture and murder of Jamal Khashoggi an american resident journalist thats what changed the view of so many in the senate with whom i voted and spoken about this issue, was both that particular incident and the ways in which President Trump failed to step up and teach about americas values. You know, were not just a country of interests. Were not just another great power. Were a country that is great because of our values. The utter failure to stand up for a journalist has galvanized bipartisan action in the senate and the point you make, joe, is an important one. Although this was a significant vote yesterday in the senate, theres no chance that the republican controlled house will take it up and pass it before the end of this session. Early next year i think we should consider this issue again and take stronger action with teeth in way that our house colleagues and the Democratic Party can then put on the president s desk to force him to act on this issue. Senator coons, this is willie geist. How are you now weighing the american relationship with saudi arabia in light of what happened with Jamal Khashoggi, in light of the intelligence youve been briefed on. Obviously saudi arabia is a long time ally. We still do need oil from them in some regard. We dont want a failed state in the middle east. But its a country that just doesnt share a lot of our values and was willing to not only overlook but participate in the murder of a Washington Post columnist, a country that wants credit for letting women drive, for example, just only recently. How do you weigh the cost and the benefits of that relationship . This is the sort of thing, willie, i think the Foreign Relations committee of the senate should look at in detail. For a long time we had a close, Strategic Partnership with the saudi kingdom. They are buagainst iran and the adventures. But their actions against qatar, lebanon and for a long time in which the saudi kingdom has supported and exported a Fairly Extreme version of islam has to make us reconsider the depth of this relationship. How many more incidents like this, tragedy in the saudi consulate in istanbul will we get dragged into if we dont begin to draw some different lines in terms of our priorities for the u. S. Saudi relationship. So i think we should have a complete reexamination. What we havent heard yet from secretary pompeo is a real openness to a reconsideration of our relationship with the saudis. Senator coons, this is david ignatius, just to ask a skeptical question. Ive heard from some middle east veterans that the question, is the senate in this rebuke of the saudis in effect putting itself in regime change business and do you worry about that . That weve had some bad experiences with trying to engineer who should run these countries in the middle east . I do share that concern, david. A number of my colleagues have come out and fairly boldly said what should happen to the crown prince . Who should be the next leader of saudi arabia . And i think were on stronger, better footing if we put forward our values and our priorities and make it clear what the limits are to our partnership with the saudis. Thats what the vote yesterday was really about, was saying that the conduct of the war in yemen, the humanitarian consequences of the war in yemen after step too far for us. Weve already seen some positive movement in the peace talks between the houthis and the saudi government and the delivery of humanitarian relief. Thats an encouraging first sign. I dont think we should be specifically saying whether the crown prince can or cant lead saudi arabia, but instead putting our values, priorities forward and then making it clear we wont be supporting further adventures and further actions in particular actions to try to do the sort of extreme thing like kidnapping and murdering a critic of the saudi royal family. Senator, i certainly understand its unbecoming for the United States in 2018 or 2019 to be telling other countries who must run their countries, but at the same time even beyond yemen, how do we ever build a constructive relationship with a crown prince who baited, lured and then tortured, killed and sawed his body parts inside of their consulate, how do we ever have a relationship with a leader that did that a Washington Post columnist, to a virginia resident, to the father of American Children . Joe, thats exactly why this has been such a galvanizing incident. You concisely summarized the most chilling parts of this particular incident and i think we need to send a clear message that that style of leadership is not going to lead to an enduring American Partnership with the saudi kingdom and to be clear about our priorities. When our president hears the relevant intelligence, is briefed on the Supreme Court consequences and on all those chilling details and says, i dont know, im not sure who to believe, im not sure what to do, they are a great partner, they buy a lot of weapons from us. That suggests our relationship with the saudi kingdom is rooted only in arm sales and access to energy. That degrades the United States. That makes us not only not great again but that goes at the very core of what has made us great which is being clear about our values priorities. So refusing to stand up for the Freedom Press and defend an american resident journalist weakens our country and having a partnership even following this incident with no accountability for it profoundly weakens our country. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you chris coons. Greatly appreciated. Thats what you talked about looking at a policy through a moral lens. All those republicans and democrats yesterday with their vote in the senate that did just that. David, quite a balancing act, isnt it . I know that you were Close Friends with dr. Brzezinski who certainly in the 21st century was very suspicious of the United States dictating regime change to other countries. That said, were in a very difficult position here. Its hard for us to do business with mbs. So what are the smartest minds in washington other than you, of course, in Foreign Policy, what are they telling you about how we walk this fine line . What does the future look like for our relationship with saudi arabia . So, ive been hearing a lot of talk in the last few days, joe, about precisely this issue and i think the simple answer is pretty much what senator coons was saying there at the end in his answer to your question. The United States needs to be clear about its values and expectations. It is not our job to pick the crown prince let alone the king of saudi arabia or any other country. Thats not appropriate. It would be resented, if theres one way you want to guarantee that mbs will be in power long term just let saudis watch us try to muscle the choice of who is going to rule them. I do think that we can say clearly, a condition of american support for your country, whoever runs it, is that it accepts certain basic norms, that it holds people accountable. And the death of one of our journalists, in the case of us at the post, our friend and colleague, and end a war thats creating a humanitarian nightmare in yemen. That it end this feud with qatar which is ripping the gulf apart. I think we can also say that we expect our friends, our allies, to release Political Prisoners from jails. There are dozens maybe hundreds of saudis including the number of women who are being held. So i think we can say all those things clearly, but leave to the saudis the question of how to run their country which is appropriate. All right. Up next prosecutors continue to build evidence of the president s alleged involvement in paying off the client of our next guest to keep her story of an alleged affair under wraps. Well talk to the lawyer of former playboy model Karen Mcdougal next. To most, hes phil mickelson, pro golfer. To me, hes, well, dad. So when his joint pain from Psoriatic Arthritis got really bad, it scared me. And what could that pain mean . Joint pain could mean joint damage. Enbrel helps relieve joint pain, helps stop irreversible joint damage and helps skin get clearer. Enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. Serious sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, nervous system and Blood Disorders and allergic reactions have occurred. 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This morning weve been talking about the reporting from the wall street journal and msnbc news that donald trump was the third person in the room in an august 2015 meeting when his lawyer Michael Cohen and nsa enquirer publisher david pecker discussed ways the tabloid could help counter negative stories about trump and women. One of those women at the center was Karen Mcdougal. Joining us now her former lawyer. I wonder looking back if the Justice Department thinks donald trump is an unindicted coconspirator in the case but they cant indict a sitting president. What is the process for accountability . Is there one . Well, first of all, thank you for having me back on your program. Let me start by saying what a difference nine months makes. Yeah. When we sues ami nine months ago arguing this was an illegal catch and kill contract. The defense was basically to lie. Ami, you dealt with the National Enquirer, but you know. Ami said, no, this was a modeling contract and the president denied everything and now we know that for sure that thats not the case. We heard the president on tape with Michael Cohen, talking about david pecker potentially hit by a bus. We have ami admitting this was a direct coordination with the pvt. Of the United States. So to your question, really, the issue is that the defense has morphed. And Rudy Guiliani is now teasing out the new defense which is that, the edwards defense, essentially what was done here was not illegal in the first place. There is a terrific article in the Washington Post today that basically explains how the walls are closing in and thats just not a credible defence anymore. So as to the statute of limitations and accountability, you know, on the political side, theres the question that, you know, your guests have been talking about today, which is, is there the political will to do something about this . And on the legal size, the question is, well, you know, is the president going to be elected to a new term . Because if not, certainly, there is not a statute of limitations problem. If he is elected to a new term, is it the case that this type of behavior that was not an act committed while in office but rather to obtain the office. Right. Does that fall within the doj policies . There is a lot of moving parts here. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next nine months. Hey, peter, its willie geist. Thanks for coming on again. Its good to see you. Was there any question in your mind or Karen Mcdougals mind to underline this one more time, that she had an affair with the United States. The argument his legal team have made, yes, maybe we paid these off to protect the family, to make the bogus allegations go away, any doubt there was an affair in. No im not going to speak for karen. I said this all along. I will speak for myself. But there is no doubt in my mind. I dont think there is any doubt in the minds of any fair minded person who has followed the process. When we first brought this lawsuit and i went on the morning shows, i said, this is not about publicity. I remember gayle king kind of laughing at that. My response was, you will see karen once. She will talk to anderson cooper. She will in her words tell her story and you know thats what you will see. And the American Public saw that. I dont really think that anyone who watched karen and who has watched the president throughout this process really believes the denials of the relationship that they had. Peter, susan del percio here. When you look at the facts as theyve come out on this case, it seems that everything happened as a matter of course. I mean, when you go back and review everything from the beginning, does this seem like something they could have done before, donald trump could have done before . Im not saying it involves campaigns finance violation, but perhaps this is a part of the pattern that donald trump has been in . Well, from our perspective, we said this from day one, we knew what we saw and what we saw was very troubling collusion between karens own lawyer at the time and American Media. When we brought this lawsuit, it was because of terrific reporting by the media that we were learning ability the type of things that were happening. And as far as your question about a pattern, you know as this media reported things, you saw patterns in many different ways. You skaw patterns involving Michael Cohen, you saw patterns with Keith Davidson and the National Enquirer and donald trump. So i think, the way i would answer that is, i would say i think this is just the beginning. Everyone has a role to play in this type of process. You know, for us, we settled the case with the National Enquirer in april and then we sat back and it took restraint, but like the rest of the American Public, we kind of stepped aside. We waited for the process to unfold and i think that many new things are going to come out with regard to put it broadly election law violations that go beyond the type of things that people are discussing today. Sam stein has a question. Sam. Yeah, peter. Thats sort of what i wanted to get at wha was this question. And to be very specific. When Karen Mcdougal was in discussions with ami about the acquisition of her story in the fall of 2016, did either they or a representative of the Trump Organization or drurps campaign, ever exoowe Donald Trumps campaign, ever make it explicit they were entering into it because the election was near . Is there anything in written writing or was anything expressed orally over the phone, for instance, that was explicitly tying the acquisition to the campaign . So, ill say two things ability that. The first one is that as we said from the beginning, the interaction that karen was having were through her lawyer and with ami. And so she was learning things throughout this process just like the American Public was learning things. So there was really no hiding of the ball on our part in terms of what she knew and when she knew it with regard to Michael Cohen, the president , et cetera. The second thing is im certainly not going to comment on anything thats not public. You know, our representation of karen ended when we settled with ami in april and even if i still represented karen, i certainly would be very cautious about referring to information, having anything to do with that representation. But what i can tell you is that i represent other clients and i have been involved inologist matters involving this orbit and this really is just the beginning of this part of the story. The kind of pivot on the part of trump world to the suggestion that this is just like traffic ticket. These are minor infractions. Im happy to go on record right now and say that if i were sitting where they would, where they are, i wouldnt want to be making a claim like that. Because, you know, its clearly not the case. Peter stris, thank you for being on the show the morning. Coming up, could Jared Kushner be aproving himself of being his fatherinlaws new chief of staff . Well have that reporting ahead. Plus, much more on the legal troubles swirling around the president as he continues to change his story about the hush money payments. Well hear more from Michael Cohen, who is breaking his silence after getting sentenced to prison, saying trump knew about the payments and knew they were wrong. Morning joe is coming right back. This isnt just any moving day. This is moving day with the best inhome wifi experience and millions of wifi hotspots to help you stay connected. And this is moving day with Reliable Service appointments in a twohour window so youre up and running in no time. Show me decorating shows. This is staying connected with xfinity to make moving. Simple. Easy. Awesome. Stay connected while you move with the best wifi experience and twohour appointment windows. Click, call or visit a store today. Too loosely quote hamilton, he was in the room where it happened. Uhoh. The latest reporting on the hush money payment put President Trump squarely in the middle of a conspiracy to commit Campaign Finance fraud. This morning, we are learning the Trump Inaugural Committee is now also under investigation. Add that to his campaign, his transition, his business, his foundation and his white house. And if thats not enough the Republicanled Senate yesterday voted to rebuke the president s Foreign Policy goal of maintaining a Good Relationship with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman, the man the cia assesses to be responsible for the murder of journalist jamming a khashoggi. Welcome to morning joe. Its friday, december 14th. Along with joe, willie and me, we have republican strategist and political analyst susan del percio. Columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post david ignacious. Editor for the daily beast, am stein. An msnbc justice analyst matt miller. And nbc News Reporter heidi pryzbilla. Good to have you with us this morning. That was quite a list of all the things coming at the president. I know he had to be shocked yesterday with a vote in the United States senate actually condemning the president over the da the khashoggi murder, that problem is now manifesting itself in policy. Very real policy matters and, of course, the wall street journal editorializes this morning, it only gets worse with democrats taking over the house in a month. Its all shocking. There is a lot going on. I want to get to something first. I was off yesterday for a family matter as you mentioned, but i wanted to address a term on wednesday that was vulgar. I few it right away. I tweeted it was a terrible choice of words and i was sorry. But please allow me to say this facetoface. The term is crass and offensive and i apologize to everyone, especially to Lgbtq Community and my colleagues for using it. It was a mistake. My father would have found it so unbecoming and disrespectful and he would have told me. I will work hard to be better. But i just wanted to say on camera, looking to people straight in the eye, i am really, really sorry. So now to the news, nbc news confirms that donald trump was the third person in the room in an august 2015 meeting when his lawyer, Michael Cohen and National Enquirer publisher david pecker discussed ways they can counter negative stories about trump and women. The meeting was first reported by the wall street journal as a part of a nonprosecution agreement disclosed wednesday by federal prosecutors the enquirers Parent Company, American Media, incorporated, admitted that two months into the campaign, pecker offered to help deal withing intive stories about president ial candidates, relationships with women, by among other things assisting the campaign and identifying such stories so they could be purchased and their publication avoided. A year later, in august of 2016, after trump had been nominated and ami made a 150,000 payment in cooperation, consultation and concert with and at the request and suggestion of one or more members of our agents of a candidates 2016 president ial campaign. And yesterday, trump denied knowledge of wrongdoing related to the enquirer. I dont think and i have to go check, i dont think they even paid any money to that tabloid. I dont think we made a payment to that tabloid. I was asking the question, i dont think, a, we made a payment. Then have you the other situation and every lawyer, look, trump didnt violate Campaign Finance laws and neither did the president. He didnt say that. Willie, that shows. Aaron burr as we all know desperately wanted to be in the room where it happened the room where it happened. Well, donald trump in this case wanted to be as far away from the room where it happened. But unfortunately, he was there, every day or we learned more information too show just how involved he was in this conspiracy which i think prosecutors believe ultimately led to a felony. That is a Campaign Finance law felony. Well, if you look at the pieces of this puzzle, what we got were a couple ones, Michael Cohen, going to prison three years in part with these payments the second piece was American Media incorporated the Parent Company of National Enquirer with a 150,000 payment to Karen Mcdougal the playboy modem. The third piece theyre waiting for is the trump campaign. Now, matt miller, we have trump, according to nbc is reporting, in the room with Michael Cohen and American Media plotting and planning and discussion how to pay off women and suppress these stories so he can be elected president of the United States. The trick has been to connect these payments directly to the trump campaign. Do you think we are any closer to that this morning . I think we absolutely r. Its important, not just that he was in the room in the beginning in august of 2015, also what he said in that room. As the wall street journal reported. He looked to david pecker and said what is it you can do . How can you help my campaign . We know he made an ill lysle contribution to purchase this story later on. The president said he doesnt think he ever reimbursed ami. He didnt. The issue is ami caused this illegal corporate money to be spent. So i think the problem for the president is not just that he was there in the middle of it. That he, you know, helped hatch this conspiracy from the beginning. Now two other people in this room are cooperating witnesses for the government. So you have both of the people who are in the middle of this conspiracy from the beginning now telling the government everything that happened and everything that the president said. So President Trump responded to his former lawyers sentencing yesterday, guys, rejecting Michael Cohens claim it was his duty to cover up, quote, dirty deeds. The president claimed that prosecutors have a plot to get him by charging cohen with Campaign Finance violations. Nobody, except me, would be looked at like this. Nobody. What about congress, where they have a slush fund and millions and millions is paid out each year. Millions. They dont talk about Campaign Finance anything. Have you ever heard of Campaign Finance lists . Have they listed that . No. Its not even under Campaign Finance. Number work if it was, its not a violation. Number three, its a civil matter. I never directled him to do anything wrong. Whatever he did, he did on his own. Hes a lawyer. A lawyer who represents a client is supposed to do the right thing. Thats just pay them a lot of money, et cetera, et cetera. He is a lawyer. He represents a client. I never directed him to do anything incorrect or wrong. What he did was all unrelated to me except for the two Campaign Finance charges that are not criminal and shouldnt have been on there. They put that on to embarrass me. They put those two charges on to embarrass me. Theyre not criminal charges. What happened is either cohen or the prosecutors in order to embarrass me said, listen, im making this deal for reduced time and everything else, do me a favor, put these two charges in there. He made a deal to embarrass me. In order to embarrass me, they cut his term down. Now, how many would would say, listen, if you embarrass the president of the United States, well give you a deal, your fatherinlaw, your wife, well cut you a deem. Thats all it is. Of course the sesame street word of the day, embarrass. The president is using it every second or third word. David ignacious, you know, weve all been shocked by this president s ineptness when it has come to his own legal defense, sitting there, making those arguments. You would be hard pressed to find that many members of congress have been around for the past 20, 30 years, would say this is personal. Ask those who were charged and went to jail during the abramoff matters. You can, of course, ask bob mcdonald. He did things perfectly legal in the state of virginia and still had the feds come after him and throw him in jail. What the president is alleged to have done is a felony that impacted the outcome of a president ial election. Can you think of anything more relevant, david in the Campaign Finance laws. Ened his intention am skirting of and his intentional skirting of them. He sound like he had the sense of a retreating army getting shot at from many direction and trying to fend off the fire, but he is his defense collapses inward. What i find interesting about this latest set of charges, that it sets up with broader argument about russia and russian help in the election by saying from late 2015, President Trump was somebody whoop to protect his election chances was willing to work with people, willing to work with this Media Company prepared to buy out negative stories. Do anything to keep his campaign on track. Then you move into 2016, we begin to have very clear evidence of contacts with russians who were offered to help the campaign in different ways and keep raising that to trump associates. So we think there is a continuity in this narrative. Now you were talking about russia before. Now you are talking about Campaign Finance violations. Actually, i think there is more continuity and trumps defenses sound to me more and more fragile. You know, it was none of the bomb pasts we were seeing a couple weeks or month os ago. Still ahead, President Trump compares his plea deal with Michael Flynn, saying the security adviser was tougher in the way he cooperated with prosecutors. Well explain where the president went wrong. First, heres bill dweerns a check on the forecast. Can you believe its another rainy forecast. On a friday, lasting through the weekend, if there is destruction or damages it will be today from flooding or severe storms. We have two storms on the map. We want to point out our friends on the west coast, its not going to be the structure. It will be rainfree. So lets get into the potential for the damaging weather. We already have seen a lot of rain in north florida. Its already raining in raleigh, soon, in d. C. , towards your evening drive. We have isolated supercells. It looks like it could last until midnight or 2 h. P. M. Tampa all the way flew daytona beach. Then we have about 29 people under flash flood watches. These guys have been so as of late. Saturday were watching the rain in the midatlantic. Sunday a stubborn storm still sitting here. Middle of the country, you look great. Rock plaza will be crowded, even in the rain. Well be right back. You are watching morning joe. Silver bells we saved hundreds on our Car Insurance when we switched to geico. This is how it made me feel. It was like that feeling when youre mowing the lawn on a sunny day. And without even trying, you end up with one last strip thats exactly the width of your mower. When youre done, it looks so good you post a picture on social media. And it gets 127 likes. Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on Car Insurance. So shark invented duo clean. While deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. The United States Postal Service and fearlessly devours piles. 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Yesterday, President Trump also spoke several times about the plea deal his former National Security adviser Michael Flynn took from the Mueller Investigation. First, we heard from the president on twitter. And he posted, quote, they gave general flynn a great deal because they were embarrassed by the way he was treated. Heres the embarrassed word again, mika. Unbelievable. It is embarrassing. The fbi said he didnt lie and they overrode the fbi. They want to scare everyone into making stories that arent true by catching them in the smallest misstatements. Sad. Im confused. He, wait, hes now saying its okay that general flynn didnt lie . He said he didnt lie. Im so confused. He followed up on that tweet later in the day twice. Its a terrible system we have. Its going on right now with general flynn. The fbi said he didnt lie. I saw your tweet on that. Mueller said he did lie. So they took a man who is a general and a respected person and a nice man and i dont even know what he said about me. Maybe they scared him enough hell make up a story but i have a feeling maybe he didnt. Hes a tougher kind of a guy than cohen. But they took a general that they said didnt lie and they convinced him he did lie and he made some kind of a deal and now theyre recommending no time. You know why . Because theyre embarrassed they got caught. Well, the fbi said Michael Flynn, a great person, they said he didnt lie, mueller said, well, maybe he did. Now theyre all having a big dispute. I think its a great thing a judge is looking into that situation. Its an honor for a lot of trick people. Hes terrific people. Hes actually fishing, he did it with manafort now with flynn, a guy alone on a bridge, fishing, hoping he gets a bite that maybe flynn, maybe manafort will listen to him and cross the prosecution and get pardoned. Its very obvious what hes dock. On fox news, Chris Wallace picked award the president s defense, here he s. Some of what judge Andrew Napolitano had to say. Michael flynn, the president says, you know, mueller says he lies. Flynn said he didnt lie. What he neglects to mention is the president fires him three weeks after he became the National Security adviser . For lying. So the president fired the man for lying who he is defending against lying. He says Michael Cohen, you know, he was a minor functioner, who was Michael Cohen . Michael cohen was the chief counsel for donald trump. He was the guy that you had to go see if you wanted to get something done with donald trump. He was his fixer. And you know, ive covered a lot of these cases where somebody flips and the prosecution says, look, i can sure you will consider this guy that flipped is an unsavory character. Remember, we didnt bring him into this case. It was donald trump who chose him to be his lawyer and his representative and, you know, i kind of am a little surprised when the president says, look, i didnt tell him to do anything wrong. He was doing all these things. The last thing i checked the lawyer does what you ask him to do. He doesnt break the law. He doesnt do things you ask him to do. Its not like they go rogue on you. A very, very telling statement came out of the judges mouth yesterday. A judge finding the president ordered and paid for Michael Cohen to pay for a crime. Michael cohen said it wasnt a Campaign Violation. Its a damage control payment. Unfortunately the president wasnt in the courtroom. And the people who were the federal prosecutors who have a statement from david pecker, the guy that owns the National Enquirer said it was for the campaign. The prosecutor said it was for the campaign. Michael cohen said it was for the campaign. The president wasnt there. Maybe he should have had lawyers there. So if you make an honest mistake in failing to report something or you take 100,000 and you are only supposed to take 2500, you can correct that by returning the money, paying a fine and correcting the report. If you do this as a part of a scheme to hide it, then its not a civil wrong. Its a crime. Thats what the judge found yesterday. Wow. Boom. Willie geist. A lot of good if fgs riginforma right there from fog news. First, judge napolitano lays it out clearly, perfectly, if you make a clerical error, thats fine. Will you pay a fine. Everybody does it. But if there is a conspiracy to hide a Campaign Contribution as david pecker, his attorney the judge says there was, thats when it becomes a felony. What about Chris Wallace . I know his dad mike wallace would be proud of him. Hes tough as and nails it on two points. It was donald trump when he fired general flynn, he fired him because he said he was lying to the fbi. He had to fire him. Because he was lying. To add Something Else to the conversation that gets lost in this. Donald trump was on tape with Michael Cohen. We got a tape in september, 2016, discussing a plan to pay off the playboy model Karen Mcdougal. Cohen talks about setting up a shell. Trump is heard saying pay with cash. Trumps defense, it was a drd tape. He didnt contest the contest of what he said. Everything we are talking about is true. Hes on tape talking about it with Michael Cohen. Hes on tape and hes also been on tape for other things that actually as we know, that access Hollywood Tape. That did not hurt him among his base. What he has to be westerned about now, those clips were on f fox. And when you see that network trying to give a straight response, he has to be concerned. Not only that, other republican government officials are looking at that, another contractor other u. S. Senators. Thats where he has to worry about the cracks. Thats where its starting to lend itself to. So i think thats another reason why the president is hopping in and out of town for two weeks to be away from all this. Coming up on morning joe the Republican Senate sends a message about the saudi day crown prince and the civil war in yemen. But is the president listening . Thats next on morning joe. [leaf blower] you should be mad at leaf blowers. [beep] you should be mad your neighbor always wants to hang out. And you should be mad your smart fridge is unnecessarily complicated. But youre not mad, because you have e trade which isnt complicated. Their tools make trading quicker and simpler. So you can take on the markets with confidence. Dont get mad. Get e trade and start trading today. So shark invented duo clean. While deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. From capital one. Nd i switched to the spark cash card and fearlessly devours piles. I earn unlimited 2 cash back on everything i buy. And last year, i earned 36,000 in cash back. Which i used to offer Health Insurance to my employees. Whats in your wallet . The United States Postal Service makes more holiday deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. With one notable exception. The senate yesterday unanimously passed a voice vote, a nonbinding resolution holding stalled dicrown Prince Mohammed bin salman responsible for the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Modems before that occurred the senate voted to use the war powers act of 1973 and end all u. S. Military assistance for the saudi arabianled war in yemen. A war that has resulted in a massive amount of civilian deaths, includes tens of thousands of children, according to u. N. And put millions at risk of famine from those are u. S. Bombs in large part. Several republicans joined all 49 democrats in voting in favor of that measure with three gop senators not voting. However, outgoing House Speaker paul ryan blocked any votes in the house on the resolution for the rest of the year. A spokesperson for if speaker says it is quote based on a factually faulty premise and blocking the resolution isnt as critical as some are making it out to be. Well, so, there is yet another black stain on paul ryans legacy. Here he uses a farm bill as a vehicle to provide aid and comfort to those two murdered a Washington Post columnist. And i suppose its only fitting that given the number of ways hes disappointed so many people that had so much faith in him going in as speaker that he chooses to go out this way. David ignacious, its stunning that mbs would be given cover in a farm bill from the house of representatives in normal circumstances. I guess these are no normal circumstances. Lets talk about the United States senate. How significant is it that you have republicans demanding a end of the war in yemen and democrats taking over the house in a month . Joe, this amounts to a vote of no confidence in Mohammed Bin Salman by the u. S. Senate. It will not have Practical Impact. The yemen vote needs to be matched by action in the house. As you said, paul ryan prevented that. But the senate couldnt speak more clearly that to saudi arabia, to the crown prince that we dont trust or believe you and you must take steps to end the nightmare of war in yemen. The one ray of hope people should take is that the negotiations that are going on to try to stabilize and end the war in yemen in sweden, under the leadership of a british negotiator, there has been some progress in the last day. There is a ceasefire in a key port through which all the supplies needed to keep people alive have traveled. I think thats the result of even saudi arabia understanding that this war has to end, that support for it in the United States, expectation of the u. S. Weapons to support it is basically ending. Uae came to that a couple weeks ago. So i think in terms of saving lives, we need to focus on the process in sweden and hope the saudis get the message. I know that saudis are going to tell Mohammed Bin Salman, you got to end the war in yemen. You got to end the crazy kind of interfeud with qatar, a neighboring country and you got to start releasing prisoners from jail. That itself only ways the confidence shattered can be regained. Coming up on morning joe, much more on a sequenceconseque week that included his former lawyer sentenced to prison and another ally putting him in the middle of those illegal hush money payments. Morning joe is back after this. I will tell you that the gentleman that is sitting now in the oval office 1,600 pennsylvania avenue is not the donald trump that i remember from trump tower. Hes a very different individual. Whats the happened to him . I think the pressure of the job is much more than what he thought it was going to be. Its not like the Trump Organization, where he would bark out orders and people would blindly follow what he wanted done. Theres a system here. He doesnt understand the system and its sad because the country has never been more divisive. More there from Michael Cohen speaking out in his first interview since he was sentenced this week to jail time. Welcome back to morning joe. Susan del percio is still with us. Joining the conversation we have, else tore of commentary magazine, contributing editor of the week, Weekly Standard and columnist at the New York Post john fodoris and cofounder and editor of the beat d. C. , tiffany cross, good to have you here. We dont have beach ham here, how do you pronounce your name in meachham speak . They were saying it was pronounced podhoris. Andrew jackson pronounced it morehores. My apologies. You always write great columns. Thank you. With great insight. But this week you were talking about other republicans dont seem to get they lost the mount terms. Explain. Well, they didnt just lose the midterms. The midterms are a harbinger of disaster in 2020 in a way no midterm ever has been for this, the simple reason that democrats got, it is estimated around 62 million votes in the midterms. Hillary clinton got 65. 8 million votes in 2016. So if you think about this, they got 95 or Something Like that of the 2016 president ial vote. Wow. Now, most midterms have turnout thats about 40 less than the president ial year. All democrats need to do is get 5 more to match Hillary Clintons overall aggregate total and if you think that the turnout in 2020 is going to be larger than that, were talking 70, 75 million votes. That is the ball game. Thats it. Its over. Thats over. And, of course, democrats romped in pennsylvania, michigan and wisconsin and those three states add up to 36 electoral votes i believe, subtract 36 from 306 or 46, excuse me, electoral votes. Subtract 46, which was trump os total. You get under 270 and trump loses. You know, bill podhoretz, it reminds us of what we heard before Donald Trumps election, which was there is a blue wall in the Electoral College and no republicans is going to get past that blue wall, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What john said and what we knew history to be at least since barack obama also election, really does show that Donald Trumps victory was an anomaly. It was an anomaly because he did, though hes used it, i would say for badesque. He had extraordinary political skills that were ahead of tear time. Nobody knew what was happening in real time. Also, Hillary Clinton for as great as she was in digging into policy would be the first to tell you, hey, politics wasnt her deal. So, im just oneering whether what john is talking about it really is the world we will see over the next 20, 30 years. A democratic domination of american politics. I think i would sound like carl rove if i said this is, now, democrats will dominate american politics for the rest of their lives. I dont want to go that far, joe. First, you are right. I think about donald trump and the anomaly of winning the election. A lot of it was he spoke to issues, democrats, particularly Hillary Clinton didnt recognize the amount of frustration and angst out there among the good democratic base. She was new in the campaign. We know in those key states, bernie spoke to those issues, bernie sanders, so did donald trump he won the election. I want to emphasize what john says about the extent of this win for democrats, there are two sides to this. Republicans dont recognizer that sort of in denial how badly they lost for a long time. I still think to a certain extent, democrats dont realize how big they won. They say we lost beto orourke, stacy abrams. I said, jesus, you won by 40 house seats. You won seven governorships, seven state legislative houses. And 375 seats, democratic seats now in different state houses around the country. I call that a blue wave. Tiffany, we were reminded how far up the denial extends to the oval office this week, he was sitting with nancy pelosi and chuck chumer going on harping about how we won the senate, not mentioning the 40 seats and the 400 across state and local races. What lessons should democrats take away in their big goal is to remove donald trump from office in 2020. I actually disagree. I do think obviously democrats made huge gains. I do think you raise a good point, bill, peter pan e peopop emotionally checked to the stacy adrams campaign and beto campaign. I understand why they feel a little disheartened at this time. I know there is this narrative that republicans are losing traction. Not really. It dropped 53 . Its not a huge gain. There is still an overwhelming amount of people that remain loyal. I would caution democrats in thinking they have the win at their back and can float into 2020. I do think the Oval Office Meeting gave donald trump a preview of what the next two years of his administration will look like, particularly when nancy pelosi won and said dont question my leadership. I think that gives a really good indication of whats to come. So, as you look at then what was done, though, state by state, district by district, what was done right by democrats . That you can exsfrap late to a president . Exstrap late to a president extrapolate to a president. Too often it means appealing to white swing voters. Electable means to appealing to people of color and younger people and people who are not happy with what theyre seeing at the new york level. So i hope that democrats will do that. I think the new chair of the triple seed the campaign arm of the house democrats, she has run a very Robust Campaign of hiring diverse staff. Tom perez came out and talked about as if they had a gathering of donors, theyre getting filled early. Iona presley made a good point. Shes the first black woman to represent boston. She challenged democrats. She says, do you want to employ transformative change . So i think as you have these diverse voices, i think the democrats are going to have to reckon with the generational shift thats happening and also the policy shift thats happening. Nancy pelosi did a great job of making concessions, secured her speakership. I think the younger voice versus done a great job of maintaining and digging their heels in, saying this is what we care about. The rest have taken notice. So john podhoritz. Which does not belong . I will give you four names. You tell me which one does not long with the others. James. A baker iii, rahm emanuel, you may know where im going here, lets see, who else . Leon pennetta. Jared kushner. Which one does not belong as chief of staff . Well, i mean the one virtue that Jared Kushner has if trump were to appoint him as chief of staff is that its not clear that trump couldnt necessarily stop speaking to him. So at least you know, he would have a working social relationship with his chief of staff, which evidently trump intermittently has not had with current chief of staff john kelly. Look, Jared Kushner made middle east peace and, you know, established a wonderfully close relationship with a psychopathic murderer in saudi arabia. So, hes perfect for this job. I mean, hes done so much for us already. No . Thats quite a resume. You know he sold a building, he bought a building for 1. 8 billion. He had to sell for 900 million. So hes also a great deal maker. So he relates very well with his fatherinlaw who had one point was 9 billion in debt. Susan del percio, lets talk for a minute about the other person thats name is being tossed around right now. That is Chris Christie. It really shows us how far down the line donald trump has gone in two he would like as his chief of staffs. Now, we know chris, mika and i, we always have. But donald trump has been spent years trashing chris, spent years saying that anybody that would listen, you know, he was guilty, you know he shut down the traffic on the bridge. You know the guy should go to jail. And, you know, remember, he was running around talking about Jared Kushner after the los Vegas Shooting and pointing at jared going bad blood, bad blood. Also criticizing jared so here we have donald trump now down to two people for chief of staffs, that hes been bitterly critical of to anybody who would listen for years. Yet, only one of them, joe, will be able get a security clearance so there is that. True. As we know, Jared Kushner hasnt been able to have a full security clearance. I think one thing is they are concerned about two things, keeping some form of operation in the white house, but more importantly, these investigations that are going on and the potential of a sleuth of subpoenas coming out of the house committee. So with the democrats coming in control some i think they are trying to look for a way to get out of this. But at the end of the day, we all know that donald trump is going to be nothing more than his own chief of staff and whoever they put in there will last about you know a season of the apprentice about 13, 14 weeks. Of course, bill krauss, there is a doubt as to whether Chris Christie will put himself in that position. Trump talked to him before. He said no way. And was actually thinking not until after he got beaten in the midterms. But i will say this with Chris Christie and im dead serious, if you are in the position that donald trump is in, having a former u. S. Attorney by your side while he is going through what he is going to be going through for the next six months to a year, not a bad idea. No, look, i like Chris Christie, i think he would be excellent in that position, frankly. But donald trump wouldnt listen to him, number one. Number two, dont forget, Chris Christie put Jared Kushners father in jail. He will not get the job i would say if Jared Kushner has any say at all. Lets accept the reason this is going on so long, nobody wants the dam job. Who would after you saw that meeting in the oval office. Who would walk in there . Who would want to be Donald Trumps chief of staff . Of course, donald trump is having lunch today with david bossy. His strength is he was dan burtops chief of staff in the impeachment hearings for bill clinton. If donald trump is thinking to deal with somebody by his side impeachment, were all in trouble. James baker famously said that the chief of staff is still staff meaning that its a high and noble mighty position, but basically youre working for somebody and your job is basically to be the administrative head of the executive office of the president. Im not sure that Chris Christie is that guy. He is not staff. He is a principle, and what you need is somebody, i think hes going to end up picking somebody weve never heard of, a junior, you know, secondary deputy at the white house who knows how to push paper around. Which is actually the only thing he needs. We had heard newts name thrown around earlier this week. Any chance of that . That would be a great choice. No, are you kidding . What does this process tell you about the job and who may or may not want to go into that office, particularly with all the legal problems surrounding the white house, youre walking into that buzz saw as well. I think the discussion about the chief of staff is a very inside the beltway discussion. I think you can name kanye west chief of staff, it doesnt matter. Youre right. Hes going to do what he wants to do. Its somewhat insignificant. Its almost like the Vice President. Its not that insignificant. Im not sure this person is going to be able to align him or get him in order with anything. Im not sure it matters, to be honesty. He can easily be his own chief of staff. I agree. Bill press, tiffany cross, jon podhoretz. The title of a new oped by john conway, well be right back. The United States Postal Service makes more holiday deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. With one notable exception. Life isnt a straight line. Things happen. And sometimes you can find yourself heading in a new direction. But at fidelity, we help you prepare for the unexpected with Retirement Planning and advice for what you need today and tomorrow. Because when youre with fidelity, a partner who makes sure every step is clear, theres nothing to stop you from moving forward. Discover. 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In a new oped for the Washington Post, George Conway, the former chair, trevor p potter and former acting solicitor general argue the case against President Trump would be far stronger than the case against john edwards was, entitled trumps claim that he didnt violate Campaign Finance law is weak and dangerous and they write in part this, the Campaign Finance violations here are among the most important ever in the history of this nation. Given the razor thin win by trump and the timing of the crimes, they very may well have swung a president ial election. Begin with the edwards case, the judge ruled that a payment to a candidates extramarital Sexual Partner is a Campaign Contribution if one of the reasons the payment is made is to influence the election. The grievous min mization further corrode our commitment to our age old ideal of being a government of laws and not of men. The bad arguments being floated in trumps defense are emblematic of a deterioration of respect for the rule of law in this country. The three of us have deep political differences, but we are united in the view that our country comes first and our Political Parties come second. Chief among the values of our country is its commitment to the rule of law. No one, whether a senator or a president , should pretend america is something less. And susan del percio, watching the president lie and equivocate around what is incontrovertible about him being in the room, there are tapes, there is the ami executive pecker saying that he was in the room and Michael Cohen is going to prison. How do we have anybody in the president s administration, let alone Kellyanne Conway going on tv trying to say that is not true. Heres the reason i give George Conway a lot of credit and his coauthors on this oped is because the Trump Administration is trying to poopoo the finance violation as if its nothing. This is something that affected our elections. We went after russia for trying to affect the outcome of our elections. This is serious. This goes back to one our pillars of our nation, and thats a free democracy. So i think that while theres a lot of other things in the orbit, we shouldnt lose that fact, and to hear other People Associated with donald trump to minimize that or say theres nothing to look at here or be happy that no one has been killed. Its awful. That really is a slap to all americans. Mika to take up the point in the oped about the razor thin margin, if people had known about Stormy Daniels or Karen Mcdougal, they may or may not have voted for him, the numbers again in michigan, President Trump won by 10,700 votes, in pennsylvania, 46,700, it adds up to about 79,000 across those three states. I dont know if it would have changed the outcome. Do you think some people may have heard the stories and said i dont want that guy to be president. Well never know. I know youll be following this on sunday today. What else do you have in store . We have a big one. Our interview on sunday is a show that you watch, and thats saying something, because you dont watch a lot of shows. Jerry seinfeld is my sunday sit down. He has a run of shows at the Beacon Theater in new york city. We sat down at the beacon, talked for an hour about comedy, about stand up, about his show, how it almost didnt happen. Nbc didnt want it to happen, who took up for him. A treat and a thrill to sit down with one of the all time greats, jerry signfield and you can see it this seinfeld and you can see it this weekend on sunday. Susan del percio final thoughts. I need to figure out what to watch on netflix. I need a break from all of this. I hear you. Its challenging. Its an important time for all of us to keep our Heads Together as we cover this really shocking news and all the developments. That does it for us this morning. Have a great weekend, everybody. Stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. Thank you so much, mika. Good morning, everybody. We have a lot to hit today, starting with an open mic. President trumps former attorney and fixer speaking out just days after being sentenced to three years in jail. He directed me to make the payments. He directed me to become involved in these matters. I gave
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