Analyst john judge sefls. The past few days the New York Times says the president is losing controlling of his narrative. As of this week, the statement about his health was not actually from trumps doctor, but had been dictated by mr. Trump himself. That the president has split with the leaders of his legal team and hired the same new lawyer he denied recruiting. And that mr. Trump himself had financed the 130,000 payment intended to buy the silence of the actress known as Stormy Daniels. The Washington Post reports that when Rudy Giuliani went on National Television wednesday night and said the president had funneled money to Michael Cohen for the cost of the porn stars nondisclosure agreement, quote neither white House Counsel don mcgann, nor emmet flood, the white house attorney recently hired to handle the russia investigation, knew that trump had reimbursed cohen before giuliani revealed it. According to a source familiar with their thinking. Adding that the communications and media staff run by press secretary Sarah Huckabee sanders did not book giulianis appearance on hannitys show on fox. And were not involved in helping him strategize his talking points. Trump surrounded by faith leaders at yesterdays national day of prayer event, ignored questions and left sanders to face the press. Can you explain why the president when he spoke, answered questions to reporters a few weeks ago about the 130,000 payment from Michael Cohen to Stormy Daniels, why the president was not truthful with the American People and with the people in the room . As mayor giuliani stated and ill refer you back to his comments, this was information that the president didnt know at the time. But eventually learned. When did you specifically know that the president repaid mr. Cohen for the 130,000 . You personally . The first awareness i had was during an interview last night. All right. I think its fair to ask at this point, Donny Deutsch if youre working for a Major Company and you are hired to represent it, your company is. And theyve given you Bad Information, one time. Two times, three times, and youve put yourself out there and youve had to sort of recant or dance around it. At what point do you leave the company . At what point do you realize your brand or the company itself, is being hurt and you cant help it . Well, we have a list of about 30 people that you put up last week on the show that have left. What would you do . If this was a big car company. Were you lying about the car . Well obviously you part ways. You cant, if you dont have any choice. Look. Weve talked about Donald Trumps lack of management style. The giuliani thing is interesting. We forget, excuse me, how during the campaign, giuliani was unhinged. I mean if you showed clips of him during the campaign, there was a reason he didnt get hired for all the jobs that he wanted to. I spoke with Michael Cohen yesterday and his remark about giuliani doesnt always know what hes talking about. He said look theres two people that know exactly what happened. Myself and the preds and youll be hearing my side of the story and he was obviously very frustrated with what had come out yesterday. But giuliani, the one other management stupid, stupid thing that trump does, i was a america occ curial guy like trump as a ceo. The last thing i was going to do was double and triple down. Probably the way giuliani got there in the first place. One day he was probably pissed, my lawyer is not tough, get giuliani on the phone, hell do it. Thats the thought that goes into it. Now were starting to see the residue and the Collateral Damage to that. One of the side bars to this story is the arrival on the scene of emmet flood. Emmet flood is a highly respected defense attorney in washington, d. C. He has a resume that unmatched by anyone else who has been representing the president in this case. So hes in there now, hes got to have a tremendous fear of the freelancing that is going on within the white house between the president and Rudy Giuliani. And Jonathan Turley, let me ask you i was once told by one of the best defense lawyers in this country that his principal obligation to his client, any client. Was to take the clients story and make it just a little bit better in an open courtroom. What has happened in your view, legally, to Rudy Giulianis attempt to make the president s story whatever he tried to make it the other night on tv what legal peril does that put the president in, that he wasnt in prior to Rudy Giulianis appearance . Well i believe that giuliani did serious harm to this case. I also find it astonishing, if its true, that flood was not told about this in advance. I have to say ive severed clients for less. You know, your client either has to listen to your advice and has to coordinate these types of statements. Or you dont have a client. You just have a relationship. So theres a, a very troubling aspect to this. What giuliani did was exceptionally unwise, what he said really didnt materially advance the president s case. Changing something from a gift to a loan does not get you out of Campaign Finance violations. In fact it trips a bunch of other wires. And i think part of the problem looking at giuliani in this interview. Weve all been there, many of us have been lead counsels in highprofile cases. When he first went on fox, i thought wow, you are way too comfortable. Maybe it was the forum but this sort of informal back and forth where youre trying to change a narrative, is very very dangerous. And the problem for the president is, facts are not endlessly flexible. You cant just continually change those facts, unless you are just making your pitch to the public and not trying to maintain a legal position. Well, ill just tell you that during the transition, donald trump told both joe and me that giuliani was a little out of it. Was kind of losing it. And would fall asleep its what he told us. And i dont know if it played into why he didnt become secretary of state. We certainly openly lobbied on the air for that not to happen. Because we also thought there was Something Different with him. This is not Rudy Giuliani gone rogue. This is Rudy Giuliani with the president s blessing. Otherwise it would have ended after the hannity appearance, now hes been out again and again, including talking late last night to nbc news. Giuliani told nbc he made the admission after being told about documents that showed proof of the payment to Michael Cohen from the president. Giuliani, a former u. S. Attorney, accused Law Enforcement of the office that he once led of playing dirty. Saying i wanted to get out in front of the special counsel in the Southern District of new york. Because at some point they would realize this information and leak it. Giuliani said i dont think the president realized he paid cohen back for that specific thing until we made him aware of the paperwork. According to giuliani, the president responded oh my goodness. I guess thats what it was for. Thats a quote from Rudy Giuliani to nbc news. He also spoke about serving as trumps lawyer, saying youre not going to see daylight between the president and me, were going to work hard to have a consistent strategy. As for that strategy, while giuliani insisted the revelation of the secret payments was to prove that trump and Michael Cohen did not violate Campaign Finance laws, he ended up managing to tie the revelation directly back to the 2016 campaign. Imagine if that came out on october 15th, 2016, in the middle of the last debate with Hillary Clinton. To make it go away, they, they made this cohen didnt even ask. Cohen made it go away. He did his job. Gosh its beyond Jonathan Turley, the Campaign Finance is one question. As you say that has not gone away. Contrary to what giuliani and the president believe they did on hannity and on fox friends yesterday. What about that piece, isnt that an admission that it was a Campaign Contribution to make it go away . Thats why this is so painful to watch. Lawyers should have no daylight between himself and his client. But youre supposed to have the client walk closer to you, youre not supposed to just simply be taking the clients rhetorical flourishes. All of these comments seem directed at the public at a time when you need to direct them at the prosecutors. All of these threats, saying youre going to have the mother of all trial type of threats, are not going to have any impact on the prosecutors, their Blood Pressure is not going to raise at all. Theres a story out that mueller tock a box of subpoenas from the alexandria courthouse. Im going to go out on a line and say, thats not a good thing. It indicates that the rhetoric and the threats and chestpounding, it might play well with the president. Its not going to have any impact on the prosecutors except to push them further along the road on a confrontational approach what i dont understand is the end game here what happenes if you succeed in this and he hits you with a subpoena . At the end of that road is an appearance in a grand jury without counsel. Is there anything more frightening than that idea of the president going into a grand jury, without counsel . This is legal d. U. I. How despicable giuliani is, comparing the fbi to nazi stormtroopers. To that point, thank you, donny. Joe has a new piece in the Washington Post that questions why Rudy Giuliani would contaminate himself so terribly. Its entitled Rudy Giuliani goes from americas mayor, to trumps chump. And he writes in part this why americas mayor would now allow himself to become trumps chump is beyond me. With many west wing insiders openly questioning whether the are 45th president will even finish his term, such shortsightedness makes no sense, even when viewed in the most cynical of lights. Giuliani has said that in september of 2001, during new yorks darkest hour, he drew strength from Winston Churchills example. And yet, poor rudy couldnt even stay true to his former colleagues for a month. Once trump came calling. We can all thank god that churchill and not giuliani was on guard when adolf hitlers actual stormtroopers sought to destroy england an lay waste to the rest of western civilization. Because unlike giuliani, Winston Churchill never blinked. This guy, susan del pursio, has gone beyond blimpging, hes totally bought in. And to everybodys question, but Jonathan Turley, whats the end game here . The end game is not good for anybody who can see clearly. And whats so interesting is that at the beginning of this piece, joe outlines what a great job Rudy Giuliani did turning around the city. Thats the administration i was part of. Thats the Rudy Giuliani i know. Thats the Rudy Giuliani i miss. I mean even when you look at that hes gone. He used to give a state of the city, lay out something, lay out what his vision, deliver it without notes. He was fantastic. This interview we saw the other night was disjointed. He went into fisa warrants he should be doing his job. Which is to prep the president. Not be his pr guy, but be his lawyer. And seeing him take this tack. Now i think knowing rudy, he has reason for it. I just dont see how it turned out to his best interests. I cant imagine what that would be. As we talked about yesterday, the people he is calling stormtroopers is the same fbi he relied on in the days after 9 11, he walked through the streets with a mask on his face, the Southern District of new york that issued the subpoena, is where he worked himself. He was the u. S. Attorney in the Southern District. These are people he knowed, has respected and worked with. He was able to sell himself out in this way so quickly. Rudy said it would be wrapped up in two or three weeks, he may be wrapping it up just about now. That comment flies in the face you quoted it yesterday, what Michael Cohens reaction was to the fbi coming in. He said he was surprised, but they were professional and courteous, not stormtroopers. I want to pause again, Rudy Giuliani, who by the way i know you loved him back then, i thought he exploited 9 11. A lot of people thought he did well, respect. He went on National Television and compared the fbi, the guys that risk their lives every day to nazi stormtroopers. Just lets pause for that a second. What a despicable, despicable pathetic man. Im sorry. Danny cevallos. Back to the legal questions, giuliani when he talked to nbc news last night said trump made 12 payments, beginning in january of 2017, in installments of 35,000 each to Michael Cohen and that was the money used to pay off giuliani says, unbeknownst to the president , to pay off Stormy Daniels. What do those payments look like to you . Is that a normal relationship between a client and his attorney . Does that look like a retainer to you . What is that . I can see giulianis strategy. What hes trying to do is break up these payments so they dont appear so connected to 130,000 payment. After all, if trump reimbursed him dollar for dollar in one payment, that would show a real connection through circumstantial evidence. But instead, what i think giuliani is trying to do is show that instead, trump paid a certain amount every month to create this sort of pool of retainer funds in order to pay settlements as cohen sees fit. The problem with that approach is that at least under the rules of ethics it might create some issues. Attorneys have to keep their accounts very, very separate. Its one of the number one reasons why attorneys get in trouble is creating any gray area between their Client Trust Account, and their operating account. So even if this was reimbursement for a loan made by the attorney, which by the way, under new york ethics rules, attorneys arent supposed to advance the costs of the settlement. They could advance deposition costs and filing fees. But paying a settlement and then getting reimbursed, is probably running afoul at least in spirit of the rules. And then you have the challenge of this payment coming in, where did cohen put this money . Did it go right into his operating account . Did it go into his Client Trust Account . Did he submit hourly invoices . And then bill that against the Client Trust Account . This money creates a paper trail and characterizing it as a loan as Jonathan Turley says, trips a lot of wires. So, too, does it, if you characterize it as a retainer. That trips a lot of professional responsibility wires. That requires accounting and that have questions that need to be answered. The other point that giuliani has made over the last couple of days is attorneys do things like this. They dont want to burden famous and wealthy people who have busy lives. They do things like paying off porn stars without telling their clients. Does that strike you as a convincing argument . Something thats common among attorneys. Ive been on the plaintiff side and the defense side in negotiating stllts, whether its a Gigantic Company or a Small Business the client must be aware of what youre doing on the clients behalf. There is no general fund that a Large Corporation just gives a single attorney to settle cases at will. First, thats terrible policy for a company. If they create an atmosphere where a potential plaintiff knows that hey, all i have to do is submit a claim and ill probably get a check for 130,000, one of the things i want to make very, very clear. Even if youre dealing with a Gigantic Corporation or a gigantic government entity, what they see as nuisance value is not 130,000. Can you try a case for 130,000. Nuisance value even to the Largest Companies on earth is sometimes 1,000. 2,000. Its not 130,000. And believe me, 130,000 may not be a lot of their overall worth. But it creates a paper trail and the bosses want to know about it. Theres much more of a paper trail go ahead, mike. So danny, 130,000. Now mikan colin indicates he got the 130,000 as part of a Home Equity Loan. Thats where he drew the money from. So the multiple payments from donald trump to Michael Cohen, where does the danger, the peril of bank fraud exist here . I have several concerns about this. Any kind of home any kind of loan that Michael Cohen applied for, he wo