To stop. No matter what you do, they just keep on coming after you, hungry and ready to tear you apart. You can never just sit back and relax, because after these zombies, the ones right in front of you, there are thousands more right behind them and a thousand more behind them, and theyll all want a piece of you. Maybe you have a plan for the zombie apocalypse. The cdc certainly does. No, really, thats a real post from the federal governments zombie preparedness campaign, but what about if the government defaults on its debts . The way some are talking about it, it sure sounds like an apocalyp apocalypse. In order to admit default would be, and im quoting here, insane, catastrophic, chaos, these are the more polite words. Warren buffett likened it to a nuclear bomb. But the real zombies in this metaphor arent the countrys debts, the real zombies are the congressional republicans. See, no matter how much you think theyve been defeated, they just keep coming back. The Affordable Care act was passed and signed, and they still fought it. It was upheld by the Supreme Court, still, they attacked it. Just this month, it was officially enacted and still republicans shutdown the government over demands that president obama gut his biggest legislative achievement. Republicans lost the president ial election, despite a struggling economy, they failed to take the senate, they barely held on to the house. 1 million more voted for House Democrats than republicans. Their Approval Rating is lower than low and still falling. Only 24 of americans have positive feelings towards the Republican Party, according to a new nbc news wall street journal poll, the lowest number since polling began 25 years ago. Yet still they come, demanding obama care be defunded, that the safety net be slashed, that you become their undead dinner. Now they are massed in washington, d. C. Threatening to keep the Government Shutdown unless president obama gives them something, medicare reform maybe, changes to the tax code, i dont know. But the contempt of most of the American People wont stop them. Electoral results wont stop them. The threat of economic catastrophe wont stop them. Theyll just keep coming back, trying to rip the government apart limb from limb. Joining me now, Jared Bernstein and msnbc and cnbc contributor, currently a fellow on the center of budget policies and priorities and fellow chief economic adviser to Vice President joe biden. Lisa cook from Michigan State university and former member of the president s council of economic advisers. Elahe izadi, staff correspondent at the national journal, and rick newman, finance columnist at yahoo and author of rebounders how winners pivot from setback to success. Nice to have you all at the table. Rick, i want to start with you. That same poll i just quoted is i think a fascinating poll result. They ask whether or not americans wanted to just fire everyone in congress and replace them with new folks. 60 of americans said, yep, that sounds like a good deal. Does that mean the zombies have won, if people are at this point just disgusted with government overall, does that mean republicans, no matter what happens on debt ceiling, have won . There is a tactic if you make the entire government look terrible, it will create more momentum to shrink the government and thats what some of these young turks are after. I think its back firing, because what happens when the government shuts down is we start to realize what the government doesnt do and we say, wait a minute, we want the government to do these things. We want it to go out and patrol, you know, foodborne illness. It makes the government look good and people trying to stop the government look bad. Thats in the poll numbers, as well, when we look at who is blamed by the American People here, we have a clear sort of preponderance of people blaming republicans rather than blaming president obama. 53 of folks saying the shutdown is really the republicans fault, but in the end, is it possible that they what were fighting over here is to get back to sequester levels, to raise the debt ceiling, as though this is a thing that ought to be fought about. Yeah, i thought president obama had a very good point when he kept saying raising the debt ceiling is not a concession to me. Thats the job of the congress. You raise a good point, and i think its one that what underappreciated, both in terms of these ongoing arguments they are having and the outcome. Visavis the ongoing arguments, the democrats have made a considerable concession to republicans by accepting budget levels, these sequestration or budget cut levels that are well below where theyd like to put the caps on discretionary spending, and at the same time, the sequester is looks like were going to be stuck with it for at least 2014, if not years after that. So on this point then, one more on the politics. Elahe, i wonder about not only what the sort of undead republican battle is doing visavis the administration, but also sort of what is it spurring these republican zombies on . The Heritage Foundation seems to be trying to shift some of the structural constraints facing these members and put out a new report, excuse me, put out a statement saying, we do not support clean debt ceiling increases, but because Heritage Action is committed to giving house leadership the flexibility they need to refocus the debate on obama care, we will not vote against the reported proposal. So were not going to, basically, hold them accountable if they raise the debt ceiling. So this is heritage saying we want to fight about obama care, we dont want to fight about debt ceiling. If republicans raise the debt ceiling, were not going to sort of score you down as a conservative, but i keep thinking, well, yeah. I mean, how would you score someone down for doing their job . Well, raising the debt ceiling, a clean debt ceiling bill has never been that popular with very conservative members and organizations, but i found it interesting that heritage decided not to do a key vote on a clean debt ceiling increase to refocus on obama care. And i think that indicates where the enthusiasm is among the conservative base. They are mostly enthusiastic about obama care, and a lot of them are actually upset with Speaker Boehner for moving away from this discussion, and i think part of his reasoning for moving ahead and proposing a sixweek debt limit increase and separating that from turning the Government Back on was to give conservatives hope that obama care would be revisited. So i think that kind of indicates where the conservatives are and that they are more passionate and interested on the obama care issue. And they realize that the repercussions on not raising the debt limit, its unprecedented. We dont know what could happen, but a Government Shutdown, thats happened before, and i think republicans are feeling comfortable they wont lose the house over it, even if a majority of americans blame them for it right now. Because theres enough time . Yeah, theres enough time. You know, we might see more of the repercussions, for instance, in virginia, where they are going to have a governors race and a lot of federal workers live in virginia, so you might see some ramifications there. But more than 12 months from now when all these guys are up again, the Government Shutdown, the specter of that, all of the problems and issues might have been resolved and people might not feel as passionate or feeling that upset about it anymore. Lisa, i want to sort of pick up on this question about, you know, shutdown versus the debt ceiling fight here. And in part because, you know, one of the great frustrations of anyone who watches the oldfashioned zombie movies, zombies move slowly, you can see them coming, but over and over our protagonist will stumble or fall and then the zombie will eat you. I keep thinking, when i look at the administration, is there some stumble, some fall the administration previously in its relationship with the republicans has committed to allow the debt ceiling once again to get wrapped up, something potentially catastrophic, is there a failure how the administration handled this in the past to allow us to keep coming . I think the republicans, house republicans, certainly think there are opportunities there, that the concessions that have been made before would lead to further concessions, but i think the line in the sand that has been drawn has not been recognized, or was recognized recently. So they keep saying, well, if we dont do obama care, lets do the debt ceiling. If we dont do the debt ceiling, lets do your firstborn child. So they keep moving the goal post, and the strategy has born itself to be an emperor without clothes. So i dont think they have a deep strategy, and i think that everybodys realizing that we would wind up in Uncharted Waters and that history, we have a recent experiment. We dont have to look back to 2011, here we can look to europe. This was disastrous. Even the notion that greece would default drove the European Union into action, the eurozone into action. I think theyve really lost this one. As soon as we come back, i want you to chart those Uncharted Waters for me and explain precisely what happens. Theres a lot of misinformation about the debt ceiling and what happens if we dont raise it. Stay right there. Up next, the new crop of truthers who are haunting the Obama Administration pure zombie denialism may be the most frightening part of this whole thing. [ male announcer ] this is claira. To prove to you that aleve is the better choice for her, shes agreed to give it up. Thats today . [ male announcer ] well be with her all day to see how it goes. [ claira ] after the deliveries, i was okay. Now the ciabatta is done and the pain is starting again. More pills . Seriously . Seriously. [ groans ] all these stops to take more pills can be a pain. Can i get my aleve back . For my pain, i want my aleve. [ male announcer ] look for the easyopen red arthritis cap. Gives you a longlasting fresh breath feeling. So you have the courage to jump in. Go in for the hug. Or make sparks fly. For a fresh breath feeling that lasts up to 5x longer, get scope outlast. The end. Lovely read susan. But isnt it time to turn the page on your cup of joe . Gevalia, or a cup of johan, is like losing yourself in a great book. May i read something . Yes, please. Of course. A rich, never bitter taste cup after cup. Net weight 340 grams. [ sighs ] [ chuckles ] [ announcer ] always rich, never bitter. Gevalia. So i should probably get the last roll. Yeah but i practiced my bassoon. [ mom ] and i listened. [ brother ] i can do this. [ imitates robot ] everyone deserves ooey, gooey, pillsbury cinnamon rolls. Make the weekend pop. Everyone deserves ooey, gooey, pillsbury cinnamon rolls. Right now, House Democrats are on the floor trying one more time to end the Government Shutdown by introducing the senate bill to fund the government, and one by one, they are being rejected. Lets just take a look at this for a moment. Weve been saying that republicans are the zombies, but in this case weve got democrats coming up and saying we want to end this. Lets take a look. Gentleman from virginia. I yield for the purpose of a unanimous consent request for the gentleman from texas, mr. Doggett. Mr. Speaker, i ask unanimous consent the senate bring up the Senate Amendment hjr 59 instead of leaving for a threeday weekend, that we open the government and go to conference on a budget and end this republican Government Shutdown. As the chair previously advised, the request cannot be entertained, absent appropriate clearance. Mr. Speaker, ms. Pelosi has already cleared it. Whos not clearing it . Id like to yield for the purpose of a unanimous consent request for the gentleman from wisconsin. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, i ask unanimous consent that the house bring up the senate to open up the government and go to conference on a budget so we can end this republican Government Shutdown thats costing the u. S. Economy 160 million a day. As the chair previously advised, that request cannot be entertained absent appropriate clearance. Gentleman from virginia. Mr. Speaker, i now yield for the purpose all right. Weve been seeing there what has been going on for some time this morning and looks like it is likely to continue for some time. Were going to talk here a bit, were going to pull out from this and talk about the debt ceiling, because i do want us to keep in mind that some republicans refuse to simply acknowledge or to believe that defaulting is even a thing that could happen. Take a listen. There is no such thing as a debt ceiling in this country. I would dispel the rumor that is going around that you hear on every newscast that if we dont raise the debt ceiling, we will default on our debt. We wont. If you dont raise the debt ceiling, that means youd have a balanced budget, doesnt mean you wont pay your bills. Theres zero chance the u. S. Government is going to default on its debt. Its unfortunate people have conflated the idea that not raising the debt ceiling on october 17th would be somehow defaulting on our debt. Jared . Youre physically hurting me by playing this stuff. I know, right . Look, you could try to tell a story that if you dont raise the debt ceiling and you prevent the government from borrowing to pay debts its already incurred, that this congress has already signed off on, that they can use incoming cash flow from revenues to pay some of their debts, but the fact is, they cant even do that, because there are days when the amount that you owe your creditors, the people who are lending you money, are larger than your incoming cash flow. If that happens on a given day, thats called a default. This is not rocket science. The word default exists, the debt ceiling exists. Youre right. I thought the zombie thing was kind of a joke, but i think you may be on to something very important there. So the extent of disinformation there is, you know, we know weve lived in a factfree environment here for awhile, but its always been kind of like this fringe on the edge doing it with enough grownups in the middle to kind of keep the thing from falling apart. Youve really got to be worried about where the grownups are. I want to underline this, lisa, the poll, the same poll weve been looking at asks the question, which would be worse, Congress Failing to raise the debt ceiling or the u. S. Defaulting, or congress raising the debt ceiling and the u. S. Increasing spending. And you have 37 of respondents saying it would be worse to raise the debt ceiling than default, but 41 saying it would be worse to raise the debt ceiling and increase spending. I look at that, and to me that is an effective massive disinformation campaign. Absolutely. And when i hear these people, who are not economists and certainly not god, and economists arent perfect. Were not perfect at forecasting, but im not sure what tools they are using its accounting. Exactly, exactly. Bondholders can smell blood. We know this from 1992. We know this from the fall of the European Exchange rate mechanism. We know it from the eurozone crisis. Bondholders can smell blood. Now the question is not just your ability to pay, which is sometimes a shortterm cash flow crisis, its your willingness to pay. So when you are not willing to pay, certainly, you know, bond markets know this. So we saw this in russia, we saw it in argentina, and you may not have the ability to fund things in the future. So if you just pay these some bills and not others, so bondholders will say, well, you can pay us, but what about in the future . You may not be credit worthy in the future and there may be increasing political pressure for you to pay these other expenses, and it just becomes a default. So im not sure what information they are using, what data they are gathering. Just can i amplify something jared said . This is important to point out. We are talking about paying for things that congress has already spent the money on. This is not about borrowing so we can spend more next year. This is borrowing to pay for what weve already purchased. And anybody who thinks this isnt a big deal should simply do a partial default on their own bills. Why dont you call up your creditors and say, im going to pay American Express, but not visa, and see how easily that goes over. Thats what were talking about. To me, this is a critically important as much as i hate taking the macro and making it into your household economics, because theres a lot of things that dont work there, but theres value on the point around willingness. At least if you called American Express and visa, maybe you could work something out, but at this point its like American Express and visa are looking at your household having a fight about whether or not you will ever bother to pay them. Youll work something out, but your credit score will plummet and youll pay the price for years to come. Youll have higher Interest Rates. The principle is not that hard. I want to continue on this specifically on the question of full faith and credit. Im going to say it again, full faith and credit. They all keep saying it, but does anyone know what it means . I bet these guys do. [ ship horn blows ] no, no, no stop humans. One day were coming up with the theory of relativity, the next. Not so much. But thats okay youre covered with great ideas like optional better car replacement from Liberty Mutual insurance. Total your car and we give you the money to buy one a model year newer. Learn about it at libertymutual. Com. Liberty mutual insurance. Responsibility. Whats your policy . With my united mileageplus explorer card. Ive saved 75 in checked bag fees. [ delavane ] priority boarding is really important to us. You can just get on the plane and relax. [ julian ] having a card that doesnt charge you foreign transaction fees saves