netherlands including the owners of a flower shop. >> i was laughing and always together. hard work and now they're gone. >> among the victims a large contingent of scientists heading to aids conference in australia. the u.n. security council holds the emergency meeting. putin is calling if are ceasefire in eastern ukraine. let's bring in aviation expert jay rollins and joined by former u.s. ambassador to ukraine william taylor. we've learned the investigators from the united states will be heading to the area. any concerns? >> well, there's a security concern, first of all. they're going it need help from the local con lairs to make sure that the investigators are safe. there's talk that some of the wreckage has been tampered with. black boxes have disappeared. all of those things are important to the investigators in order to be able to put together a story of what happened. >> the crash site is a six square mile area. it must be an extraordinary challenge. >> absolutely. keep in mind all the bodies -- it's very tragic. >> almost 300. >> it's outrageous. and now these people have to be brought together, arrangements have to be made to get them back to their families. it's a tragic, sad situation. >> ambassador, as we have mentioned, all sides in the ukraine dispute are blaming each other. a conversation between a russian-backed separatist greek and not certified by nbc news showing them they screwed up and mistaken by shut down -- what he says essentially is what do you have there? the separatist tells him we shot down a plane. they don't know what kind of plane it is yet. it's clear if these recordings are real, and confirmed to be real, that there is direct communication between russian officials and these separatists. so my question, ambassador, is if this is proven there is this communication and the separatists carried it out, what happens? what is the impact of this? >> the impact is very large. this will finally get the attention it deserves from the europeans. the europeans have preferenced not to deal with this conflict very seriously. they have looked the other way. they have put on small sanctions. the united states has put on small sanctions but two days ago put on large sanctions. this is what is required to deter the russians from further aggression into ukraine. it's an international conflict. i think it will get the attention it deserves. >> now, ambassador, let's just play the sound. let's say the russians did indeed give these separatists these surface to air missiles. they're pretty advanced. this is not a sam 7 you put on the shoulder and shoot at something in the sky. there are radars. it's sophisticated. what does it say about -- in other words, do you think the russians care if they get more sanctions. they're pretty, you know, indebted now to these separatists and this issue. >> i think the russians care if they put on more sanctions. they reacted furiously to the sanctions that president obama announced two days ago on wednesday. so i think the threat of europeans following on those americans sanctions is a real threat that does bother them a lot. it will affect their economy directly. the stock market fell, the ruble fell. it will have a greater effect on that. the other thing i point out is the missile systems could come from one of two places. could have comes from russian stocks or russian military forces. it could have given them to the separatists. but also the separatists could have had stolen them from the ukraini ukrainians. in either case, it's the russians supporting the separatists who are responsible. >> and, jay, you know, there are reports now that maybe the black boxes have been taken to russia and some other evidence has been tampered with. here is my question. the black box, really, what information can it give? they had nothing to do up there in the plane to what happened. we were just commenting there's little of the crew probably had as far as advanced warning? >> at first glance that's true, you have to consider the investigators are going in there to put together a complete package. they need to be able to go to the surviving families and say this is what happened. the next thing there could be accusations that maybe the crew was in on it. you need a complete package of what happened. that is a big part of it. because the black boxes, particularly the voice recorder, will indicate whether the crew saw anything, how long, perhaps, they had to react. but seriously, the point remains that they're not going to get a lot from the black box. i think they already know that the separatists are involved in this. >> jay, thank you very much for being with us. ambassador, thank you so much for being with us as well. ambassador william taylor. as we pointed out earlier, we learned fbi and nstb will be going to ukraine to assist in the investigation. they won't go to the scene. they'll be in country. tom costello joins me now. where do investigators begin dealing with this? >> jose, good morning to you. investigators have their hands full. as you suggested, they're probably, at this point, if they get to ukraine at all, they're only going to kiev. the crash scene is inside rebel-controlled territory. the chances that in tntsb will hands on is not a likelihood. they've been saying they have serious concerns about the safety of their crew -- of their people who might go there. go ahead, jose. what were you going to say? >> i was going to say, is time critical. if so, what specifically do they need to get to quickly rather than later? >> you know, i think you and jay made an important point here. that is that the black boxes will not play a huge role in the investigation. they know what brought down the plane. it was a missile. of the question is who fired the missi missile. they are pretty confident in what kind of missile. it was. we have video of the buk missile. it's a soviet era missile. in the arsenal of the soviet union, russia, and the ukraine. it's a huge missile on a tractor type of vehicle that is literally -- this is one of the kinds of vehicles you see toed through red square. there's one report out there that there is video showing one of the vehicles already high tailing ining out of the area toward russia. it's unconfirmed by nbc news. that would be another piece of the clue as to what possibly might have brought the plane down and who might be responsible for it. >> and, tom, you know, just thinking out of my 30-years i covered wars. you see sometimes guys with sam 7, sam 6, the surface to air missiles you put on the shoulder and you shoot with a sight. this is far different. you need some equipment, you need radar, you need communications, this is not one-man band thing. >> that's absolutely right. keep in mind, this probably, this particular launcher would not have been integrated into a sophisticated military radar system that would have the ability to differentiate between a commercial aircraft and a military aircraft. unlike, for example, if this had been a russian vehicle. if it was in the possession of a russian military. a greater chance, then, they would have the ability to differentiate between what type of plane or more precisely, to be able to say, you know, that's the track that we usually see commercial aircraft taking over territory unlikely to be any sort of a military cargo plane. so that is yet another component to who might be responsible for this, and did they simply push the button to launch thinking they were going to hit a military transport plane without the ability to differentuate and identify it was a commercial aircraft instead. >> tom costello, thanks so much. up next two countries at odds. we'll have a live report from moscow. first, we're learning more about the stories of the passengers on board flight 17. we just got word that one of the passengers was a student athlete at indiana university. 25-year-old was earn her doctorate in chemistry and competed on the women's rowing team. the university president issued a statement sending his deepest sympathies to her family. a cousin of one of the plane's captains said the pilot sent his wife a message just before leaving simply "i'll be home soon." the father of two had been flying for malaysia airlines for 25 years. this passenger, a flower shop owner in the netherlands, posted a photograph of the boeing 777 in an attempt the joke he alluded to the other malaysia air flight 370 writing "should it disappear, which is what it looks like." this is almost unbelievable. an australian woman lost her brother on the other flight lost her stepdaughter. the family said it ripped her guts out again. they were late and missed the flight. they were supposed to be on that plane. >> i'm shaking. i don't know what to do. i'm feeling physically sick. come together airpoing to the a taxi was crying. i feel like i've been given a second chance. i'll be able to see my family again. the cadillac summer collection is here. ♪ ♪ during the cadillac summer's best event, lease this 2014 ats for around $299 a month and make this the summer of style. ♪ [guyi know what you're excited. you're thinking beneful. 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>> well, thank you for calling, jose. obviously, this is a sad day for all of us here on the campus. we just found out, really, late last night early this morning that she was on the plane. as you mentioned, she was a graduate student, a very smart, young woman who was a terrific athlete for us. she's really truly going to be missed on our campus. thank you for being with us. i wanted a quick brush stroke of one of those people that lost their lives. i thank you for being with us. >> i appreciate that. u.s. intelligence -- thank you. u.s. intelligence and surveillance are working to find out who is responsible for firing that surface to air missile that brought down malaysian airlines 17. signs point to pro-russian separatist. russian's president is calling for a ceasefire in eastern ukraine asking the rebels and the government in kiev to start engaging in talks. putin is blaming for ukraine for the accident. i want to note this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land. if the military actions had not been renewed in southeast ukraine and certainly the state over whose territory this occurred, bears responsibility for this awful tragedy. i want to bring in our reporter from moscow. good morning, jim. >> hi, jose. it's only going to -- i'm sorry, go ahead. >> i'm sorry. i was going to say how soon can the united states confirm who is really responsible for this? >> well, again, i wish i could tell you it will only be a matter of days. anything to get us out of the current swirl of story, counter story, rumor and counter rumor. you ahave one rebel leader sayig the black boxes haven't been found but those who say they're in moscow under lock and key. you have one saying that they don't have a weapon that will blow the plane out the sky at 33,000 feet and you another rebel leader who boasts on twitter that they come deered the missile launcher. it's highly unlikely the u.s. will get any clarity until the black boxes are opened and analyzed. not so much to determine who did it but more when, where, getting into the nitty-gritty. we know what it was as tom costello rightly said. perhaps with the boxes, we can figure out when it happened, where exactly it happened in relationship to the border, et. cetera. that could lend clarity. what happens if the rebels have already given the flight and data recorders to putin as has been rumored? one analyst described it said piling a disaster on to an already huge tragedy. >> jim from moscow. thank you for being with us. let's bring in congressman gregory meeks. a member of the foreign affairs committee. thank you for being with us. indian you' i understand you've been briefed on the situation. what can you tell us? >> that the president has been talking to other european leaders, et. cetera, i think we'll hear the results when he addresses the nation at 11:30. trying to find out who was responsible. the process is in place international community coming together so it's done in a manner that is not just the united states. for the credibility on everyone's side so we can get to the bottom line as to who is responsible for bringing down the plane. >> and congressman, when we find out, not if, but when we find out. what do you think our reaction should be? >> i think that when we find out, as a unified community, all the europeans, because i agree with what the ambassador said, there should be more engaged than ever. if it's the russians, there's got to be greater sanctions and others put on pressure and president of russia and make sure that they, then, are calls individuals back up and stop supporting the individual causing the kind of violence and the war that is taking place there. >> if it is -- >> it's interesting. sorry, go ahead, sir. >> if it is not them. what has to happen ultimately the government of ukraine has to be in control of own territory. one of the things that is clear, where the plane went down and where the debris is, it's not in territory that is currently being in control of the ukrai ukrainian government. >> no better to talk about this than you. you've been to ukraine as part of the congressional degracious. what do you think can happen? ukraine is fighting for a war of independence of people that are coming over from the border to threaten that. what can be done? >> again, i think that is not a simple situation. there's nothing that is going to go militarily if anybody of thinking of that. what has to be done and what has happened previously is a lot of our european countries, because of their economic ties to russia, putin has been able to make sure that sanctions hasn't been as strong as they should be. what can be done, because it's a regional situation russia has been a major player. the european nations have to come along with the united states as president obama came down with stricter sanctions the other day. they should be multilateral sanctions against russia and making them to conform to the international standards and coming in and in coalition with us so that the ukrainians can control their own scenario and their own country. >> yeah. in the past, i think europeans have looked at sanctions on russia as essentially being sanctions against themselves. they depend on so much natural gas and et. cetera from russia. if it's cut back it'll affabili affect them. what a pleasure to see you. thank you for being with us, congressman gregory meeks. we're waiting for conformation where four of the passengers on the plane were from. the majority live in the the netherlands. no conformation any americans were on board the flight. the front page of the times of london. blown out of the sky. the sun "putin's miskl" nrc went with this stark photograph. and the prime minister of vail ya -- australia expressed his outrage. >> as things sound it looks less like an accident than a crime. as things stand, this looks less like an accident than a crime. and if so, the perpetrators must be brought to justice. after the break we'll get the latest on the day's other big stories. israel's ground invasion of gaza. we'll be keeping an eye of everything that is going on regarding this doomed airliner. we'll be back. time for the your business year of the week. jennifer is the founder of wil. based clean bee. she partners with brands moms already love to build awareness and celebrity. a win-win situation for everyone. for more watch your business sunday mornings at 7:30 on msnbc. if i can impart one lesson to a new business owner, it would be one thing i've learned is my philosophy is real simple american express open forum is an on-line community, that helps our members connect and share ideas to make smart business decisions. if you mess up, fess up. be your partners best partner. we built it for our members, but it's open for everyone. there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. in the nation, the safest feature in your car is you. add vanishing deductible from nationwide insurance and get $100 off for every year of safe driving. which for you, shouldn't be a problem. just another way we put members first, because we don't have shareholders. join the nation. nationwide is on your side. once there was a girl who never even in her laundry room... with downy unstopables, she matched her one-of-a-kind style with one-of-a-kind scents. downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters. wash in the wow. i'm living the life of dreams. i'm living the life of dreams, with good people all around me. i'm living the life of dreams. no! i'm living the life of dreams. i'm feeling hopefully. feeling quite hopefully, it's right up here, turn right, turn right. with good people all around me. right, right, right, right, right! with good people all around me. ok look you guys, she's up here somewhere. with good people all around me. there she is! cara! come here girl! i'm feeling hopefully. and the light shines bright all through the night. oh i don't know it. and the light shines bright all through the night. yes, you do. and the light shines bright all through the night. 42. and the light shines bright all through the night. good job. and the light shines bright all through the night. and the light shines bright all through the night. and our dreams are making us nice stories. and my loves are well sleeping just right. and i know know know know now... ...that we're, living the life of dreams... dreams... there's no monsters down here, [music fades out] dreams...dreams...dreams... it's just mr. elephant. come on, let's get to bed. turning now to the crisis in the middle east, and where israel's ground invasion of gaza is expected to grow. this morning israeli prime minister is ordering his military to prepare for a, quote, significant expansion of the ground offensive already underway in gaza. the israeli army released this footage showing rows of ground troops and tanks crossing into gaza overnight. multiple ga