before starting epclusa, your doctor will historic russia scandal to make the two-year inquiry seem like test if you have had hepatitis b, which may flare up and could cause serious liver problems the work of a deep state. during and after treatment. and more dire perhaps tonight, a hot report out that the pentagon tell your doctor if you have had hepatitis b other liver or kidney problems, hiv has worked on a plan to deploy as many as 120,000 u.s. troops or other medical conditions... for military action in iran, a ...and all medicines you take, including herbal supplements. plan being pushed by neocon john taking amiodarone with epclusa may cause a serious slowing of your heart rate. common side effects include headache and tiredness bolton. ask your doctor today, if epclusa is your kind of cure. first up nbc news is reporting the president's oldest son, donald junior, has struck a deal with the senate intelligence committee to provide testimony behind closed doors this june, next month. questions will be limited welcome back to "hardball." between five and six topics and will last between two and four the trump administration request hours. for information and testimony it comes after his repeated continues unabated, some house cancellations on the committee earned him a subpoena from the democrats are reported to look republican chairman, senator to force them to do their richard burr of north carolina, last month. attorney general william barr appears to be heeding the request, a second look at president's call for an impeachment. members are discussing other investigation of the investigation itself, the options for moving the process along as they believe trump's mueller investigation. "the new york times" reports strategy is to run out the clock barr has asked john durham to review how the fbi's probe of on congress and adds some the trump campaign got started in the summer of 2016. members believe beginning impeachment proceedings could be as the story notes, it's a move a smarter political option than president trump has long called waiting for the november for but could anger law enforcement officials who insist election. i'm joined by kate hill of california who serves on the scrutiny of the trump campaign house oversight committee, and was lawful. the purpose of the review national political reporter. according to "the washington we haven't had you on for a post" is to ensure the while. i have to ask you a secret collection activities related to the trump campaign were lawful question. i want to know the secret. and appropriate. when you talk in the caucus or i'm joined by joyce vance, a some of the members get former federal prosecutor, and together, aren't you a little michael schmidt, correspondent for "the new york times." bit appalled at the michael, let's start with donald junior. administration saying f-u every what kind of deal has he struck? is he really going to be able to time you ask for documents, hide behind conditions that every time it's a stonewall? won't protect him from being asked certain questions? >> personally i'm appalled by this administration every single day and i think most of us are >> as you were saying it just but, yeah, it's pretty horrific broke a few minutes ago. that you can just say no and the obviously there was a completely amount of recourse we have is huge dynamic, political dynamic, fairly limited. to this entire thing. the president's son was really it's been very frustrating for many of us. going after burr, the republican for me personally it's something chairman of the committee, i've struggled with. putting a lot of pressure on i've been talking with the him. people i care most about, what there was a lot of chatter from does this mean for me personally republicans. the question i have is how much in the long run? how am i going to be able to did that impact the negotiations stand up for what i believe in about the interview? how much was that about pushing and talk to future generations about what we did in this very burr sort of off the plate, because there was more backlash moment. everything is on the table still than i think anyone could have and we're weighing our options. imagined about the fact they had i don't think it's good enough served a subpoena. for us to say that we have to play the safe political route it was a fairly aggressive move for a bipartisan investigation. and so i'm personally not going to let that happen, and i don't >> do you think the trump people know how far it's going to go. choreographed a lot of that i just know i can't live with republican -- i mean, you're myself if that's the case. getting a foot out of the >> do you believe, political call, do you believe that a bucket. you say pushed him back from the plate like in the old days. serious investigation through an i know what you're talking about impeachment process where you have the house judiciary here. was that a coordinated effort by the trump people to push burr committee, perhaps even hold back from being serious about nighttime hearings like with nixon, and go through all the getting an interview with the evidence on playing ball with the russians, all the evidence guy? >> well, as you could see, right about obstruction, as serious after the news broke about this subpoena several days ago there inquiry would hurt the were statements coming out from democrats? do you believe that? folks close to don junior that >> there's been a lot of debate about that. >> where are you? were very, very sharply >> personally, i don't think it criticizing burr. i don't know how much this would hurt the democrats. i think the people who think actually bothered burr. we're out to get trump already burr is in his last term as a believe that and the people who senator. he says he's not going to run. don't, don't. you're not going to change a he's a senior senator. whole lot of minds in that regard. i think the people we're talking obviously the chairman of one of about are ones that are either the more prestigious committees. i'm not sure how much that open to it or maybe skeptical. really bothered him. you even saw in recent days maybe they don't care. chuck grassley raising questions personally i think this is a about why they were doing this. matter of integrity, what we're going to stand for and what we so you have this -- look, believe is our role within the everything is a negotiation. framework of the constitution. it did seem like a coordinated effort to really push on burr here. i don't think we're there yet but are getting closer every day. >> jonathan, you're not a what it showed me was how unified the republicans are on democrat or a republican, here we go. can the congress of the united states, the house of capitol hill around the president. representatives, play its role? i continue to be -- i continue now the way it was, mueller's job was to investigate. to see that as this emerging the house of representatives thing since the report under the constitution's job is to prosecute and the job of the especially that the republicans senate is to judge. are really in lock step together the house has been holding back behind trump. on its job which is to prosecute. politically they think that's there are no real cracks in the smart. pelosi think it's smart not to wall. >> i want to know about donald prosecute. i don't know. we heard somebody who doesn't think that's the case. junior. >> i have no earthly idea how he went to a meeting in june, the politics will shake out, but there's a lot of anxiety now in met with the russian, went out looking for dirt. he was sort of out there trying the democratic ka cucaucus abou to get dirt for the russians to going forward with the impeachment certainly among leadership. we're seeing a little bit of a change as trump stonewalls every play ball with him to get the dirt. what didn't mueller get from the single thing. i think we are seeing pelosi guy that is still to be gotten acknowledge this last week when by good questions under she used the word the president pressure? is self-impeaching. >> well, there's no indication from the report that mueller >> is it aggressive or weak? spoke with him. >> you're the expert at this, so why is it that didn't happen chris. i don't know. and how could mueller have pelosi thought it was getting completed the investigation without interviewing him? ahead of public opinion to there are no statements or impeach and i think you see a footnotes that are attributed to change in her tone. >> congresswoman, you're in the things he said in an actual heart of this, in the belly of interview. the beast here. here is the question. if trump has nothing to hide, the entire thing is littered the president, on dealing with about people who worked inside the russians, playing ball with the white house or in trump's the russians, why did he spend orbit but nothing about don two years obstructing the investigation? he doesn't want the truth out. junior. so why is it they don't have what truth is he hiding? and that, to me, is the question anything in there? still out there. what prevented him from going in what's he been hiding? to see mueller and how did >> honestly, i don't even think the question is still out there. mueller feel so confident in the end to end the investigation most of us know exactly what the answer is to that and it's without actually talking to him? pretty well laid out in the report. >> and that's my question to the issue is most americans are joyce, as a prosecutor, wouldn't not going to read a 450-page you want to find out who was the report. point man in dealing with the we need to get that information out there. russians, as he so often seemed and that's incredibly hard to do and it's going to be incredibly to be? >> absolutely. hard to do if we aren't able to i think this is one of the big get those witnesses in front of loose ends from the mueller report. us. i really respect my colleagues it's not clear was don junior questioned and he took the fifth who have been here much longer than i have. i really respect the speaker's amendment? leadership on this and the there are some footnotes where chairman of the various there's redaction following the committees. so i think we are going to appearance of his name. exhaust all options available to us before we move down the road don junior by all appearances of impeachment. was not truthful, lied, when he i just don't think it's off the testified on capitol hill. at a minimum you would expect table. frankly i'm coming from one of accountability for that. these swing districts, the ones where theoretically it's more if bob mueller thought he risky to possibly impeach but i couldn't deliver that accountability, that will make don't believe we can use that this appearance on the senate side even more important. forever as cover. >> last question to you, john. >> let's talk about how he could testify against his father, if why did donald junior buckle and he told his father about the agree to testify? russian meeting at strutrump to >> they were going to send a the cover story that was about letter yesterday saying no to adoptions of russian kids, open-ended hearing -- open-ended right? he was working hand in glove with his dad in what looked to testimony. there were conversations today and the ultimate agreement was a be a cover-up. >> all of that. there's this point in the more restricted appearance, two mueller report mueller talks to four hours. about problems he had in i don't know if you could say acquiring evidence. one side or the other. he says some people took the >> do you know how weird that fifth amendment, some people sounds? four hours is enough. lied, some people were two sinisn't. unavailable. one has to wonder where in that i hope they haven't constrained sort of layout with problems the questioning to not getting to the heart of things. >> i'm getting conflicting acquiring evidence don junior fits because, as you point out, he would have been one of the reports. >> i want to hear all about best sources for knowledge about trump tower and what he was the president's activities, his doing. thank you, katie hill. state of mind and his intent. i love the nuances of >> i always wonder what they everybody's thinking. would say if they were wanting a lot of different opinions and to squeal like michael cohen stripes to it. thank you so much for always eventually did. trump today, the president said coming on. jonathan swan, thank you, sir. he didn't ask barr to open the up next, two nights from now i'm inquiry of the fbi's russia going to northeastern probe, but there he goes doing pennsylvania to find out what just what the president wants, investigating the investigators. trump, well, what he did to convince people to vote for him here goes. in 2016. why did democrats go over to vote for a republican who is not even a republican. he's something different. trump. you're watching "hardball." [ inaudible question ] -♪ just like any other family >> i didn't ask him to do it. i didn't know it but i think it's a great thing he did it. i saw it last night and they want to look at how the whole hoax got started. it was the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the people of this country. and you know what? i am so proud of our attorney general that he is looking into it. i think it's great. i did not know about it, no. >> even if trump didn't discuss it with the attorney general, he wouldn't have needed to since he's been calling for the inquiry on many occasions. ♪ the house, kids, they're living the dream ♪ i want to bring in a member of ♪ and here comes the wacky new maid ♪ the house intelligence committee. congressman, it's an embarrassment to have an -maid? uh, i'm not the... attorney general who looks like -♪ is she an alien, is she a spy? ♪ a guy who will do anything to ♪ she's always here, someone tell us why ♪ defend the president and has become his hitman. he's out to destroy the -♪ why, oh, why -♪ she's not the maid we wanted ♪ government, the fbi everything -because i'm not the maid! in order to cover the tracks of -♪ but she's the maid we got the president. what do you make of this guy and -again, i'm not the maid. i protect your home and auto. how can you stop barr from doing what he's out to do now, destroy -hey, campbells. who's your new maid? the fbi? >> yeah, well, what's woman 1: this... interesting is barr is a very woman 2: ...this... man 1: ...this is my body of proof. unassuming guy in his demeanor man 2: proof of less joint pain... but really he's been a fixer for woman 3: ...and clearer skin. the pruz and a protector and now man 3: proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis... woman 4: ...with humira. woman 5: humira targets and blocks he's actually going after a specific source of inflammation people. that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. i think the reason they're opening this investigation they it's proven to help relieve pain, want to chill anybody else from stop further irreversible joint damage, looking into anything the and clear skin in many adults. president does and, in fact, i saw earlier today, i don't know humira is the number one prescribed biologic when the motions were filed or the briefs were filed, but the for psoriatic arthritis. president's lawyers are making (avo): humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections, the argument that congress can't including tuberculosis, even investigate the president. i think this is part of that. and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, >> what do you make of the fact as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, that the attorney general of the serious allergic reactions, united states refers to the fbi which is under his supervision, and new or worsening heart failure. tell your doctor if you've been to areas and chain of command as a spying where certain fungal infections are common and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, operation, it was spying on the trump campaign? are prone to infections, he likes that word. or have flu-like symptoms or sores. it's trump's word. it's now his word. don't start humira if you have an infection. >> that is absolutely woman 6: ask your rheumatologist about humira. remarkable. and if you think about it, it would be the most derelict of things if the fbi had good woman 7: go to mypsaproof.com to see proof in action. information that a presidential candidate or his campaign or her campaign was working with a foreign government and did absolutely nothing to investigate it. in some ways that would be an even bigger scandal if we found out they had solid information about that and didn't lift a finger to protect the country. so this wasn't a case of spying. this was an investigation. >> i'm thinking about all the prosecutions that mueller was able to take, all the indictments against all those russian figures, all involved in undermining our election or trying to in 2016. and then for the president to keep saying it was a hoax, how does he get away with that rhetoric? how come the democrats can't fight that in the public square? look at what was discovered here, the russians involved in this inteague and he still gets away with saying it was all a hoax. >> for years now since 2015 this president has built a campaign in part around his persona and his persona is that he never admits he's wrong, he tries to construct an alternative reality. that the people who want to support him can buy into. that's consistent with that. he's giving people something they can hang their hat on and still believe in him as a candidate and as a president. >> well, president trump has launched a public offensive against christopher wray just like he did with comey. trump is angry wray defended the fbi by refusing to describe woman 7: go to mypsaproof.com - when you're volunteering, "it's not my job."r that's because right where you live, lawful surveillance by the fbi there's a need for your time as spying. and skills and effort and talent. he won't use the word. he said that's not a word i please consider volunteering would use. now trump is refusing to say he and feeling that feeling that you helped someone today. still has confidence in the fbi director. >> do you have confidence in christopher wray -- >> well, i didn't understand his answer because i thought the attorney general answered it perfectly, so i certainly didn't understand that answer. i thought it was a ridiculous for most people the only day they get to speak politically is answer, thank you. on election day. >> this follows the public that's the day their voice is attack on wray when he quoted heard loud and clear because baseless accusations that he was their vote says what they want, protecting people to tried to what they value and who they overthrow him. trust. his allies are following his lead. here he goes. >> so far i don't see them doing a darned thing to clean up the we'll be up in northeastern upper echelon of the fbi. pennsylvania because that area that's his job, the former spoke with a clear voice in the highest ranking employees committed real crimes and yet no 2016 election. after voting for obama, a signs that wray seems to care defensemen kra the in 2008 and one bit to bring them to skis. 2012 it switched in 2016 giving a big majority vote to >> reagan lived in california republican donald trump. and like other people i was but worked in washington. stunned with pennsylvania swung for trump that night. pollsters and experts around very clever. here at least say the huge vote this president has gone beyond that. he acts like the federal government isn't his, the fbi in philadelphia and the suburban all the bureaucracy are vote would carry for hillary clinton and then the vote came something else. in from places like wilkes-barre he's mr. citizen who happens to with a far different message. be living in the white house. he takes no responsibility for the people didn't like being taken for granted, that they the legislative branch. >> he's the victim in every story he tells. thought the democratic party had gotten a bit elite, that they were having a big celebration he's always the object of a conspiracy, the fbi is out to get him. >> the coup. but didn't invite everybody, >> i think the congressman's point is so important. that the elite thought they were better than the people in places had the fbi not investigated like wilkes-barre. we'll find ut what did get prum that there were people involved elected president. in the trump campaign who had ties to russia, had those investigations not taken place, we would be looking at criticism what could decide who wins in 2020. we're calling the show for dereliction of its appropriately "the deciders" fundamental duty. because the people you'll be >> michael, my favorite reporter hearing from will be just that. on earth, where is this story and that's "hardball" for now. going? i think we're going to get thanks for being with us. michael -- we're going to get "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. donald junior to testify. on the house side they're going tonight on "all in," -- to continue to stonewall. i don't think they're going to send anybody up there. >> has the president or anyone at the white house ever asked or they're going to find a way to suggested that you open an make them into a laughing -- i investigation of anyone, yes or no, please, sir? think even nancy pelosi is scared of looking completely >> the president or anybody stupid and impe tent now. else? >> the justice department now i think trump is winning against investigating the origins of the his own government, executive russia investigation. >> take a look at the oranges, and legislative branch and the courts. he's winning across the board. the oranges of the investigation. >> as trump's own lawyer argues. >> he always wants a foil, and mueller is gone. so the democrats are probably the next best bet for him and he >> i am so proud of our attorney general that he is looking into it. thinks that in an election where >> tonight the president embracing authoritarian tactics. it's about growing his base and the republicans helping him do it. trying to rally the republicans to his point, a stand nof may not be the worst thing. part of the strategy is to call the democrats' bluff. they think the democrats are conducting an impeachment proceeding but not in name. and they want them to go out and say we're trying to impeach the pred because the republicans think that's bad politics for the democrats. they think they need to force them in that direction in order to sus them out. rudy giuliani said they're going to slither around until they find something here. trump has taken a lot of moves to block and protect himself and it is sort of in a standoff. politically it's a good thing for him. on fox news they can talk about this sort of continued democratic witch-hunt of the president and how this has continued to go on though mueller investigated for two years and the president seems comfortable with that narrative. >> he'll have dunham in connecticut, inspect oo oor cru. they're learning new things. the game they play about that. >> the only thing i would say about the appointing of a u.s. attorney to sort of overlook this and review this is there is a big cloud over the fbi. that's been created by the republicans. a lot of questions whether anything went wrong in the election. the fbi director wray has said there's no indication they did anything illegal. there's an argument to be made the fbi may benefit from a prosecutor, someone who is nonpartisan saying, hey, we looked at this as well and we didn't see a problem here. that would be one of the arguments from barr's side about why they did this. >> i think we'll get that information a day after the election. thank you. thank you so much. and michael schmidt, so great to have you. war games, john bolton, the ultimate neocon, reportedly ordered the pentagon to draw up a plan to strike iran with 120,000 troops to pre-position them like desert shield and then go in. has the president outsourced his foreign policy to the neocon hawk who seems intent on starting a war in iran. more on the breaking news tonight donald trump jr. strikes a deal for another round of testimony with some conditions. i can't wait to hear what those are, following a standoff over a subpoena the republican chairman richard burr said he had no choice but to issue. i like burr. he's trying at least. much more ahead. stick with us. bleech! aww! awww! ♪ it's the easiest because it's the cheesiest. kraft for the win win. welcome to fowler, indiana. one of the windiest places in america. and home to three bp wind farms. in the off-chance the wind ever stops blowing here... the lights can keep on shining. thanks to our natural gas. a smart partner to renewable energy. it's always ready when needed. or... not. at bp, we see possibilities everywhere. to help the world keep advancing. welcome back to "hardball." tonight the drumbeat of war is growing louder from the white house. "the new york times" reports the trump administration led by neocon john bolton is reviewing plans that could include a troop surge in the middle east. the acting defense secretary patrick shanahan presented a plan to top national security officials last week that would call for sending as many as 120,000 troops to the middle east should iran accelerate work on nuclear weapons. accelerate work on nuclear weapons. it's not shanahan who is driving the force behind those plans. he's seen only as a yes man like william barr for donald trump. the revisions were ordered by president trump's national security war hawk john bolton. today president trump dismissed the report that his administration is moving closer to an actual war front. >> i think it's fake news, okay. now would i do that? absolutely. but we have not planned for that. hopefully we're not going to have to plan for that. and if we did that, we'd send a hell of a lot more troops than that. but i think -- where was that story, in "the new york times"? well, "the new york times" is fake news. >> well, there could be some good reason for that response from the president. "the new york times" notes it's unclear if he's been briefed on the details of the plan. chief white house correspondent for "the new york times" and former state department senior adviser, thank you. is it possible the president of the united states has so outsourced his policy to a neocon hawk he doesn't know what the hell is going on? >> it's possible that they have discussed war plans without him at this point. they're not bringing them to him for actual approval. >> this sounds like desert shield. this sounds like stage one to go to war like we did with the gulf war. >> it's so interesting because he, of course, was so grudging about even keeping 3,000 troops in syria to keep things stable or even a few thousand more in afghanistan. it goes against his grain what he said as a candidate, to get out of middle east quagmires. there is a real dichotomy between the president and his national security adviser. >> it's one thing to put the guy in the job, his one big ask. everybody knows this. he puts a total hawk in there. he couldn't get something going down there in venezuela because his little coup attempt didn't work. and now he's over there gyning up something. i would be reading the newspapers that say they're putting 120,000 troops, i'd better start reacting to that. that's how you start a war. >> everybody in the middle east is aware john bolton was the architect of the iraq war. 120,000 troops as well, around, so that number is a triggering number for people in the middle east. john bolton has been very careful about using rhetoric of al qaeda and the extension and willingness to pursue al qaeda because that's ostensibly the foundation for the 2001 intervention in afghanistan, the 2002 intervention in iraq, and so he's use that go same language to pursue potentially iran on the same fronts. >> this is anti-shiite. >> and the evidence is not there that al qaeda is in iran right now, but he's using the previous history and iran's asymmetric attacks on u.s. forces in perhaps syria and elsewhere. add on top of that the layer that not just netanyahu and the israel connection with donald trump but you have the saudi connection as well. donald trump has outsourced foreign policy not just to john bolton but to israel and saudi interests in the middle east. he does not have his own philosophy and theory of the case. >> neocons are like little pez dispensers. a little war comes up. go to iraq, go to war in syria, go to war everywhere, lebanon -- maybe lebanon not. clearly iran is the number one goal. what does trump want, the politics of the hawks of this country without really going to war? does he want all the benefits of a war without one? >> i think he wants to be tough with iran, he wants to look like he's tough. that's just part of how he got there. this is what he promised. >> he also said i'm against long, stupid wars. >> i think he wants that type of win that he's looking for with north korea. i want to get the deal that nobody else got. the idea that he's going to be able to come in and solve this crisis. >> could he get a war he didn't want, he just wanted to play with? >> i don't think he wants a war specifically. i think he thinks the wars of the last ten years were not useful. he said it. iran will be a tougher target. >> the working class people we're going to talk to thursday night, regular people in pennsylvania, didn't vote for a war hawk. anyway, tonight in an echo of the iraq war, a senator from arkansas saying a war with iran would be easy. >> could we win a war with iran? >> yes. >> that didn't take you a second. >> two strikes. the first strike and the last strike. >> one strike to the last strike. senator jean shaheen, senator, here we go again with the same crowd, the ones that brought us to war with iraq are now pushing for war with iran. john bolton. >> well, i don't think a war with iran is in the united states interests, and we've certainly had inconsistent messaging when it comes to iran. the president pulled out of the jcpoa in a way that now a year later we're seeing iran start to talk about enriching uranium and acquiring a nuclear weapon. he's pulling out our troops in syria and iraq and a small number were keeping northeast syria stable, keeping northeast influence when iran and russia were coming into syria, and he's alienated the european allies in a way that means that they are less likely to help us get iran back to the table to address a nuclear weapon. >> senator, you know the history and everybody at this table knows the history. iran is a real country. you may not like the leadership but it's real, it wasn't created by winston churchill, a real country with a real military force developed over the years by the shah with western help, israeli help. it has a real military reality. why would we want to go to a fighting war with a country like iran? it's not a paper tiger. it's real. >> it is. >> why would we want to do this? >> iran is a bad actor. they are supporting terrorist groups across the middle east. they have a real military, as you point out, and it's really not in our interests, and we've sent a carrier strike group to the middle east. we've sent b-52 bombers. we're talking about additional troops going in, in a way that could lead to inadvertent contact and conflict. that's not in america's interests. >> what do you mean of your colleagues who seemed to learn no lesson from the war? 104,000 of our people dead, many maimed. a war that took away the buffer between us and iran, iran and the israelis. it served no purpose in helping israel. it certainly didn't work out that way. it wasn't the road to jerusalem through baghdad or anything like that. the neocon line didn't work out. so why is this guy cotton, is he nuts? why does he want to go to nor war? >> i think that's not clear, as you point out. we should have learned something from this history that we need to be increasing our diplomatic stance rather than increasing our military stance. it's one thing to be clear that we're going to be strong, but we also need to work with our allies in europe and to try and get iran back to the table. >> we thank you, peter baker. now you're a hack. elizabeth getting very aggressive. it seems to be working now. she has an avalanche into policy pros like nobody else and a signal for aguegressiveaggressig after fox news. wait until you hear this from her coming up. 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[laughter] (vo) go national. go like a pro. see what i did there? welcome back to "hardball." massachusetts senator elizabeth warren was one of the first to announce her intention to run last year. since then she kept setting the pace when it comes to policy proposals, more than a dozen plans ranging from free public college to military housing. roughly five months since she launched her campaign she crisscrossed the country hosting more than 70 town halls pitching her various plans. here she goes. >> and you don't come to iowa without having some ideas about exactly how to make that change. so i got a plan. part one, attack corruption head-on. i've got a proposal for a 2% wealth tax. yeah. doctors and nurses don't hear african-american women's medical issues the same way that they hear the same things from white women. i've got a plan. >> i have a plan. pretty good line over the weekend. she took her message to kermit, west virginia, deep inside trump country, to talk to the people there about her plan to combat opiate addiction. one place she will be avoiding is fox news. in a series of tweets this morning elizabeth warren declined its invitation for a town hall. nobody turns down television, calling it a hate for profit racket that gives a megaphoneco designed to turn us against each other, risking life and death consequences. that covers all the bases. a small uptick in her standing leaving her in the top five with kamala harris, in fourth and fifth place. third and fourth actually. for more information washington bureau chief for "usa today" and author of "barbara bush: the matriarch." first question, you're a political tout. you don't take sides but i know you study the moves. what is the smart thing that elizabeth warren is doing right now? i think she's doing something very smart. what do you think it is? >> she's got a plan, as you may have heard, and you need a plan, although it's not sufficient. it's necessary not sufficient. she's going on a particular theory of the case which is generate the maximum enthusiasm among the democratic base, which is what she's doing with the attack on fox news as opposed to the other strategy to win back f their voters who voted for trump but voted for obama before that. >> your sense of what she's doing because i think it's smart. what do you think? >> i think it's brilliant. susan is right. if you think about what happened in 2016, there might have been 7% or 8% of obama voters who flipped and moved over to trump, but at the same time there were about 9% of the traditional democratic voters who turned out for obama that actually just didn't turn up at all, that just didn't vote. i think elizabeth warren is making the calculus that it matters the base is enthusiastic, to get more democrats out to vote is the way to win, and you don't do that by hanging out with fox news. the other thing she's doing that i think is brilliant, she continues to lead the pack and to push everyone else on values and on ideas. she is very much staying true to who she is. she's saying i'm not going to help anyone -- i'm not going to aid and abet anyone profiting off bigotry and hate and racism. i'm not going to be someone who helps corporations just get richer while they do the rest of us dirty. she's staying true to her values, and she's forcing everybody else in the field to actually have to make a judgment call and to check their gut on those values, too. i think it is great. i think that she is moving in the direction that is right for her and for her campaign. and certainly democrats are excited about it. >> that's your point of view and i agree with everything you said from your point of view. i want to add a different perspective on it which is she seems to want to win both the primaries -- the primary, as we call it now. that's a new way of saying it, for everything, and win the general. for example, she isn't going some mad dog i'm going to suicidally win the general. she will not say she's a socialist. she makes a point she's not one. she's carving out the center -- not center, that left position that will allow her to move over to the center left. and without killing her on the right -- on the center right. i think that's calculatincalcul. she wants to win. she doesn't think she'll be somebody's second choice. she's not going to be on anybody's ticket. she's going to be a winner or she's not going to be a winner. it's on the nose for her. >> she's more likely to be the presidential nominee or nothing than the running mate. i do think there is some risk to the strategy she's taken with the fox news town halls. those town halls -- what fox news did with bernie sanders got him the biggest audience of the season, 2.5 million viewers. fox viewers include a lot of people who might be open to an appeal from a democratic candidate. >> she doesn't want those voters right now. >> she doesn't want them right now. she was fund-raising on her stance against fox this afternoon. it just seems to me that you run some risk of turning off those voters and making it harder and harder to get them back when you want them. >> kamala harris, who i think is a great candidate, too, what she's doing is more nuanced. she made a point of separating herself from bernie, medicaid for all medicare fraud at the exclusion of private health insurance plans. she said i'm not going to get rid of health insurance plans, i will get rid of bureaucracy. she's basically supporting -- i don't want to put words in her mouth -- a public option. that's basically what she says. i want to have a national government run one and i'm not going to exclude health care plans by the private sector. what do you think of her strategy right now, kamala? >> i would say that i don't think anyone is winning when they are responding to other people's ideas and other people's plans and trying to critique them. i think elizabeth's calculus and what others should be doing more of is to say i have a plan, here are my ideas and then to challenge everybody else to coalesce around those or not. i think that just responding and reacting isn't really helpful and useful. i also just want to add one point, too, while we're on the elizabeth warren conversation, is that this idea that somehow being a progressive is anti-capitalist is wrong. i think the folks in the race who are moving forward progressive ideas are saying these are basic american values. the dignity of work matters. you should be able to take care of your family and work a reasonable amount of hours and not be taken advantage of by corporations. this is not like far left crazy talk. >> capitalism. >> it's america. it's just american values. >> it's mixed capitalism. we've it some mix of socialism and capitalism. thank you. great having you both on. a quick reminder, don't miss "hardball's" special live event, "the deciders." i love the name because it's true. we don't decide here. we're heading to pennsylvania to hear the attitudes of people there. that's thursday night at 7:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. up next, by the way, breaking news. donald trump jr. striking a deal. i'd love to know the fine print, to deliver -- isn't it delicate testimony, limited testimony before the senate intelligence committee. what won't he talk about? 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"the times" previously reported burr told colleagues twice donald trump jr. agreed to sit for voluntary interviews only to later back out adding burr told colleagues evasions had left the committee no choice but to issue a subpoena. but at the white house this morning the president called the subpoena unfair. >> why is it unfair, sir, for don junior to be subpoenaed if he's pulled out of testifying twice? >> it's really a tough situation because my son spent, i guess, over 20 hours testifying about something that mueller said was 100% okay. and now they want him to testify again. i don't know why. i have no idea why. it seems very unfair to me. >> senator lindsey graham initially said don junior shoul don junior's reporters he would tell him, show up and plead theg you'd have to be an idiot as a lawyer to put your client back in that circus, a complete idiot. the agreement for don junior to testify, an intraparty clash in the subpoenaing his son. they stonewall the house of representatives at every turn. a new report out today suggests some democrats are getting impatient and looking for stronger tools to combat the white house. that's coming up. put them in jail up on the hill? fine them? how do they enforce it? these are hot questions. these are hot questions. and stay done through every season. behr semi-transparent stain. find it exclusively at the home depot. at sam adams, we brew with lime, plus lemon, orange zest, summer wheat, and grains of paradise, for a new lighter and brighter summer ale. sorry, lime wedge. we've got this. sam adams summer ale. sorry, lime wedge. we've got this. pnc bank has technology to help a pnc business line of credit, because sometimes inner peace requires a little external soundproofing. or pnc total auto. a place online to easily find and finance the right car for you. and your passengers. or pnc home insight, to search for a new house within your budget. hopefully with a grass yard. pnc - make today the day. you might or joints.hing for your heart... but do you take something for your brain. with an ingredient originally discovered in jellyfish, prevagen has been shown in clinical trials to improve short-term memory. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. hey, who are you? oh, hey jeff, i'm a car thief... what?! i'm here to steal your car because, well, that's my job. what? what?? what?! 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