Chris Matthews debates hot political issues with politicians, newsmakers and Washington leaders. Comes from giuliani, who attempted to downplay the criminal aspect of collusion with the russians. Rather than deny that collusion took place, he now today argued that collusion isnt illegal. Lets watch. Ive been sitting here looking in the federal code trying to find collusion as a crime. Its not. Collusion is not a crime. I dont even know if thats a crime, colluding about russians. You start analyzing the crime. The hacking is the crime. The hacking that certainly is the original the president didnt hack. Of course not. Thats he didnt pay them for hacking. Its so much fun. An apparent shift in strategy. Giuliani now appears to be saying that collusion is not so bad after all. You saw him there chuckling about it. And also 150e78d to undermined the credibility, however, of President Trumps frequent and categorical denials that there was no collusion. Which has been a familiar refrain from this president. Lets watch him. Lets put it this way. There is absolutely no collusion. That has been proven. Look, theres been no collusion. Zero collusion. Theres no collusion. No collusion. No collusion. No collusion. Just so you understand it, theres been no collusion. Theres been no crime. There was absolutely no collusion. Everybody knows it. No collusion. No nothing. No collusion. I say it all the time. There was no collusion. So what just happened . In an attempt to clean up his remarks giuliani went on fox news to say he was merely making a lawyers argument. Lets watch this. So what i said today, that there was no collusion, and therefore and that collusion also is no crime, ive been saying that from the very beginning. So did john dowd. Its a very, very familiar lawyers argument, that the alternative, my client didnt do it, and even if he did it its not a crime. And i have said that over and over again. Collusion is not a crime. The only crime here is hacking. And it is ridiculous to think that the president hacked. Well, see if you can follow that. Giulianis argument, howevers a matter of semantics. Whatever word you use to describe it, if the president
president discussed a meeting with the russians. We checked with their lawyers, the ones we could check with, for four of the six. That meeting never, ever took place. It didnt happen. Its a figment of his imagination or hes lying. Joining me right now is democratic senator Richard Blumenthal of connecticut. Yammish alcindor is correspondent for pbs newshour. Robert Costa National political reporter for the Washington Post. And brett stevens, columnist for the Washington Post. Thank you. What just happened . They went from Didnt Collude with the russians, they didnt participate in this conspiracy to disrupt and discredit our Electoral Process, although if they did it its no problem. What happened . Is it the accumulation of that Michael Cohen story thats getting out that theyre going to be caught so, they might as well deny the guilt of the crime because they cant deny the crime . Hard to know what theyre doing because from all appearances Rudy Giuliani is implicating his client in a web of criminality. By the way, its more than just semantics. This country was attacked, as you saw from the indictment of 12 russian operatives and spies who were ordered by President Putin to do theyve been indicted for felonies, and this president has helped them do it. At least theyre now saying, well, we dont deny that we did it. And the definition of conspiracy, and ive given this instruction to a jury, so have judges, is that there are spokes on a wheel. You dont have to be at the center. All you need to do is be one of those spokes. You dont need to know all the conspiracy or agree to all of it oregon even know all of it, but you can be part of it if you just participate in some of it. Thats what Rudy Giuliani is saying donald trump did. And were talking about fundamentally an attack on america that Rudy Giuliani seems very dismissive about taking seriously. And the only interpretation, the only strategy i can see is that hes trying to strengthen the base, reassure them, and make
light of it. What he seems to be saying is yeah, we may have agreed to talk turkey, we may have agreed to talk dirt on hillary, we may have been helping them generally, but we didnt have anything to do with the hacking. What kind of defense is that . That is a very slim to none defense. That is the kind of defense that would be laughed out of a courtroom. I just want to add one more point. All this talk about a second meeting is truly damning because if you take donald trump jr. s testimony before the Judiciary Committee essentially, this contradicts him. It could lead him to be in danger of perjury. And clearly he has failed to be truthful. . Lets go back to theres two news stories here. One is the second meeting that only adds the deliberative quality of the meeting in the second place. Lets talk about whether we should meet with the russians to get some dirt, oh, lets do it. That seems more deliberative. Let me go to this other
Chris Matthews debates hot political issues with politicians, newsmakers and Washington leaders. But you dont like trump so we can agree on that. So lets move on. I dont forget but i do forgive. So lets move on. What do you think the business community, which i dont really know that well, they love the fact that theyre getting relief on what i think is important regulation on environment, things like that. They love their tax cuts. Its like they close their eyes to the sleaze. Can they close their eyes as republicans, most of them are republicans, to the idea of dealing with the enemy . With dealing with putin. Will they close their eyes to this horror of collaboration car, hoots, whatever you want to call it, with the russians screwing with the Electoral Process to discredit us. Will they forgive that as long as theyre fat and happy . One of my great disappointments as a former republican is just realizing just how transactional the politics of many other republicans really are. Particularly the business community. Look, we just had economic numbers. They attacked our democracy. And the only apparently person in Public Office is donald trump denying that its an attack that should be met strongly and fiercely. And this kind of effort to discredit the Special Prosecutor is an anticipatory effort to in effect avoid the consequences when the report comes out. I want to do like an anthem around here and i want to remind any republicans watching right now who still think their tax cuts and their deregulation justify this stuff. If barack obama had done anything like this, if hed been caught dealing with the russians, dealing to get dirt on his opponent in that case, doing this against john mccain, theyd have strung him up. If not physically, they would have done it morally. They would have said this guys the worst thing that ever happened to this country. Their standards are zilch right now. I think that politically donald trump has got anne way with a lot of things that of course i think people argue president obama wouldnt have gotten away with. But i also think some people argue that other republicans wouldnt have gotten away with. All the 16 other people he beat out to get this spot, i dont know if they would have got anne way with taking meetings with russia with all these kinds of connections so hows he get a dispensation . I mean, as a reporter ive talked to his supporters, ive done so much research, and i think there are people that kind of just justify it because they have the thing that theyre voting for. Either you can look at the 4 growth or you can look at abortion and say i can support him because of that or i can support him because i dont i really didnt like Hillary Clinton and thats what im going to do. I think when you see these republicans going out there theyre saying, oh, well, we all want Opposition Research but theyre not saying we want Opposition Research from a foreign country, which is what the which is what our laws in the United States say are not possible and that you cant do that. Robert, youre great at this. Tell me about the role between rudy and the president. He has really stirred it up. He has stirred it so much its hard to keep track of it. Hes really good at messing up your mind. You think you got him on collusion, then he turns around over the weekend and says, well, im not going to play that
defense anymore, all right collusion but its not anything illegal about it, cant find it in the code. His ability to slip and slide on this thing, do they Work Together on the phone, this tag team, or is it just rudy freelancing it out there . Every time i call mayor giuliani, i say when was the last time you spoke to President Trump . He usually says just a couple hours ago. Think about President Trump in that dining room just off the oval office with the flatscreen tv watching it all day, thinking about cable news, digesting it, tweeting, and then he has Rudy Giuliani, a generational peer, across town appearing in almost every green room in new york or down in washington. They are a pair unlike any other pair in this trump orbit, who think through things in a gut sense, in a raw political sense, and theyre waging this war without much advice from others. Its really giuliani, the president together. Pretty frightening. Thank you, senator Richard Blumenthal as always. Yam yeesh alcindor and bret stephens. The Paul Manafort trial about to
begin tomorrow a couple miles across the potomac. What could it mean for Robert MuellersInvestigation On Trump . Lots of years facing this guy manafort for hooking up with trump. Plus trump and the publisher of the New York Times give each other an earful about fake news and a private meeting. Its not so private. Is the president putting journalists lives at risk . Youve got twornd about that. Also the hardball round table tonight. Trump doubles down about his border wall. Hes willing to shut down the government he says over the wall sxap little fun tonight. Sacha baron cohen claims another victim, roy moore. Wait till you catch this. He punks him. Its amazing. He gets away with it. Finally, let me finish tonight with trump watch. This is hardball, where the action is. Ps the smart ones look to fidelity to find them. We give you research and datavisualization tools to help identify potential opportunities. So, you can do it this way. Or get everything you need to help capture Investment Ideas and make smarter Trading Decisions with fidelity for just 4. 95 per online u. S. Equity trade. Fidelity. Open an account today. Open an account today. Overwhelming Air Fresheners can send you running. So try febreze one. With no aerosols and no heavy perfumes. So you can spray and stay. Febreze one. You shouldnt be rushed into booking a hotel. With expedias addon advantage, booking a Flight Unlocks discounts on select hotels until the day you leave for your trip. Addon advantage. Only when you book with expedia. President trump took some questions after meeting with the
italian Prime Minister at the white house today. He was asked about sitting down with the president of iran to talk about easing tensions. Lets listen to that. I do believe that they will probably end up wanting to meet, and im ready to meet anytime they want to. And i dont that from strength or from weakness. I think its an appropriate thing to do. If we could work something out thats meaningful, not the waste of paper that the other deal was, i would certainly be willing to meet. Do you have preconditions for that meeting . No preconditions. No. They want to meet ill meet. Anytime. No preconditions. But remember the heat that then candidate barack obama took after saying hed meet with leaders of enemy nations with no preconditions . That was back in 2008. Well, today all were hearing from the right a now familiar deafening silence. Whatever trump does is fine with them. As long as they get their tax cuts and their regulations removed on the environment. Well be right back. To help you get the price and coverage thats right for you. Thats amazing the only thing that would make this better
is if my mom were here. What . an unexpected ending its a hightech sleep revolution. The sleep number 360 smart bed intelligently senses your movement and automatically adjusts. So you wake up ready to run the world. The new sleep number 360 smart bed, from 999. Your Digestive System has billions of bacteria but life can throw them off balance. Realign yourself with align probiotic. And try new align gummies with prebiotics and probiotics to help support digestive health. Of Donald Trumps president ial campaign, there he is, faces 18 charges stemming from his work beginning in 2006 for the former president of ukraine, a putin ally. Manafort Made Tens Of Millions of dollars through his work. But in 2014 his client Viktor Yanukovych was ousted from office in a Popular Uprising in ukraine. In order to keep up with his lavish lifestyle, however, manaforts accused of resorting to bank and tax fraud. Those activities continued during his time working on the trump campaign. The charges brought against manafort include there they are. Five counts of tax fraud, four counts of failing to report foreign bank accounts, four counts of bank fraud and five counts of conspiring to commit bank fraud. Should manafort be found guilty he could face up to ten years in prison. Manafort is also facing similar charges in Federal Court in washington, d. C. , which hell have to face later. Here to help us break it down are cynthia oxney, a former federal prosecutor and ken dilanian, nbc news National Political reporter. What are we going to learn watching this . Because manafort was at that
infamous meeting at trump tower. Will that come up . What are we going learn about trump in this trial . Sadly not very much. One of the prosecutors even said the word russia wont come Up Sxlp Ukraine will come up. Ukraine will come up. But its not clear theyre even going to talk about his work for donald trump. This is a fascinating stoirl on a lot of levels. This guys been a fixture in American Politics since the 1970s and its kind of a shakespearean tragedy because the Justice Department investigated him years ago. Took a pass, didnt pursue this case. The only reason hes wearing Green Jumpsuits today is because he went to work for donald trump. But were not going to learn i think that would be a message to people that are facing trial, youre not going to win on trumps side, cynthia, because trump is bad news. Trump is bad news. And hes hes not generous. He hasnt pardoned anybody yet connected with him. No. You know, one of the Big Questions is why Hasnt The Guy Pled and some people think hes holding out for a pardon. Theres no reason for trump to pardon him. It doesnt do anything for trump. Because thats the way pardons seem to work. Im kind of wondering if the if muellers office just didnt even offer him very much. They basically said you dont do anything for us. We have gates, we have working with trump when they were talking about russia. He didnt overhear anything . Thats kind of hard to believe. Its not im sure he did but they have it from gates. And plus whats going to happen here is hes going to get convict in a long and boring trial with the exception for about two days, hes going to get convicted and then the Sentencing Process is going to come up. And hes going to have to be do some cooperation in order to get a better sentence. So theyre still going to have a second bite at that apple. And hes Got Another Trial In September hes in his late 60s, right . Hes going to be in jail the rest of his life. Well, prisons not too good to you while youre in there. You dont live that long inside. No. And i think its a Life Sentence if hes convicted in both of these trials why doesnt he just get on the phone call trump, ask for the white house number, say can i talk to the president , im not saying another word if youll
pardon me . Hes under an indictment for witness tampering. He doesnt have his phone anymore. But he also has another trial in september. And if anything comes of the conspiracy to violate campaign finance, which i predict will come after the election, hes going to have a third, or actually a fourth indictment. Theres nothing in this guys future except going to trial and getting convicted. Whats it going to look like to the American People if trump skates, as we say, he doesnt get indicted, he cant get kicked out of office because theres too Many Republican senators, so he skates on impeachment and conviction but hes still in office. But two years from now theres a whole lineup of people going to prison because of him. Hows that going to look to the voter . To the