it? this is donald trump's doing. what we are seeing is what he wanted people to see. when a desperate people in the other side of the border to see, wanted americans to see and democrats to see so they would build his wall. but is this a step too far? donald trump said he can shoot someone on fifth avenue and get away with it. is separating kids from their parents what he had in mind? is this proof of what he can get away with? or is it beyond even what his people will swallow? good evening, i'm chris plaj mas in washington. president trump and his administration came under intense criticism for the so-called zero tolerance immigration policy. resulting in forced family separations. much of the mounting public outcry was sparkeded by images like these. of small children looking on as u.s. border patrol officers detained their parents. then there are the newly released recordings sobbing children at a detention facility. nbc news has not obtained the audio from a civil rights attorney who he said he received it from client. let's listen. nbc has not been able to independently authenticate that recording. the administration would continue to prosecute all criminals. >> dhs is no longer ignoring the law. we're enforcing the laws as they exist on the books. as long as illegal entry replains kranl offense, dhs will not look the other way. >> despite the mounting pressure, the president is also pushed back against criticism. >> immigration is the fault and all of the problems that we're having because we cannot get them to sign legislation. we cannot get them even to the negotiating table. i say it's very strongly the democrats' fault. the united states will not be a migrant camp and it will not be a refugee holding facility. it won't be. >> seeking to deflect the president laid blame at the feet of democrats. those comments contradict statements by his own attorney general. and cleave hief of staff who he champion this policy. >> i have put in place a zero tolerance policy for illegal entry on our southwest border. if you're smuggling a child, then we will prosecute you. and that child may be separated from you as required by law. >> a big name of the game is deterence. if it's a family separation stands as a tough deterrent? >> could be a tough deterrent. a much faster turn around on asylum seekers. >> even though they say that is cruel and heartless. >> i think cruel and heartless, i wouldn't put it quite that way. the children will be taken care. they're put into foster care or whatever. but the pig boibig point is th t elected to come to the united states. there is a technique that no one hopes will be used extensively or very long. >> zero tolerance which the administration rolled out back in may is the brain child of senior policy adviser steefphen miller. rolling out the policy was a simple decision by the administration. "washington post" is also reporting to the president saying political advantage in all of this. according to the white house officials, the president's calculated he will gain political leverage and congressional negotiations by continuing to enforce a policy he claims to hate. joining me right now is nbc news white house correspondent kristen welker, peter baker from "the new york times," jennifer ruben from "the washington post" and jacob subrov is outside of one of the largest immigration processing centers in mcallen, texas. i want to start with kristen. kristen, it seems like they said in the cowboys movies, this president is speaking with a forked tongue. one is this is our policy of zero tolerance. we believe in it. we have to separate. we have to put the parents on trial. the other statement coming out from the secretary of homeland security was, oh, yeah. by the way, if you want to change this, go ahead. we would like you to do that. we want to change the policy. we believe it. that makes no sense to a person listening. >> i think that's why this is such a growing crisis for this administration. you heard those two different messages on display in the briefing that was given by dhs secretary neilsen and then sarah sanders who really stressed the president hates this policy. wants to see it changed. is bothered by it. secretary neilsen really dug in on the fact that this is a crisis created by past administrations. is it a policy that this president is responsible for or not? i tried to press neilsen on that point and said the bottom line is this started when the attorney general announced that zero tolerance policy. if the president hates it, why doesn't he pick up the phone and change it? she, of course, punted. she put the blame on congress. it's becoming very difficult for them to explain this and to be on the same page. >> it looks to me, you know, covering politics all these years and looking at her, she did a very good job today of defending what can't be defending. basically, they want to change the policy but they're proud of it. is she in detention? is she on the line for her job? >> i think this is a critical test for her. we know that she was essentially picked by chief of staff john kelly, ultimately president trump got onboard with this. but there have been some tensio tensions behind the scenes, some differences of approach. the president said descent feel as though she is securing the border enough. i think this is a critical test. that briefing whats a critical test for her. will she be able to keep this up? that's a big question. he undoubtedly was watching that briefing today. she faced a lot of tough questions, chris. >> last question to you. this is the one i want your answer. you're on television. you broadcast. you get the message across. i try to do the same thing. the president is very good at creating reality tv. he creates a world through television. this is a television show that nobody wants to watch. no american wants to watch kids and hear them crying. kids crying when they cry at church is fine. but these kids are crying because of policy, because their parents have been taken away from them. that's why they're crying. how can the president defend what he knows is a lousy reality show? >> i think he's struggling to do it, chris. you saw that when he surprised us and came out on the north lawn on friday. and we peppered him with questions about this. the humanity of it. he got very upset. and he pointed the finger at democrats. that's his tactic right now. to point the finger at democrats. it's a tough argument to make though because, of course, there is his own zero poll rance policy. i do think that we have seen president trump dig in whether it comes to having a fight. he rarely backs away from a tough fight, chris. we're watching that unfold right now even though as you rightfully point oiut, these images is not what the president or the first lady wants to be watching. i think the question is will he add any point back away from this fight? just tonight, ted cruz is introducing emergency legislation. so the pressure is mounting on this president to do something. he knows he does have the power to do it. the question is will he? >> kristen, great watching you there. i love the back and forth. i think you hit them right on the rhead with the policy. a policy they claim they invented but they claim the democrats for not getting rid of it. this is crazy talk. let me go to jacob at the reality that exists down there, not just the tv show. jacob, tell us what you see down there, what we should know. >> well, let me just also sing kristen's praises. she asked the question we still don't have an answer to. where are the toddlers? where are the girls? we've been given access to two 100 facilities run by health and human services where the separated child migrants are being held. i've been in one of them. nbc's got in another. we haven't seen any girls or toddlers. what we do know and what i would like to know, what the president would react if he got to see what i saw in that facility is that 1100 young kids have been separated from their family right here in the rio grande valley border patrol sector and in this building right here, the mcallen processing center, there were 1200 people last night. whether you walk in there and there is talk of cages or not, what do you want to call them? there are cages. they look like dog kennels. they're not just adults or families together. they're young children sitting in there and increasing number of young children sitting in those cages because they were separated from their parents. and more are being separated every single day. it makes you sick to look at. i would like to know what the president would think if he was actu actually inside there? the secretary of home land security has been down here and inside the detention centers. i'd like to know shz hae behas here since the separation policy was put in place? has she taulked to the border patrol agencies? the four social workers in there last night having to deal with increasing number of children separated from parents because of the very policy. it's not a democratic policy. it's a policy put into place by donald trump. >> who put together the policy of separating boys from girls and younger kids. that is sophie's choice kind of thing. did trump call that in from the bench? who put that policy in? letting you see the older boys. who told them not to let you see the girls and younger boys? who did that? >> the shelters are controlled by the department of health and human services. the facilities are run by professional, competent childcare professionals, licensed professionals, doctors in those facilities. licensed caregivers in those facilities. by all accounts, health and hum human services is doing a good job of taking care of the children wlachlt is dumped on their plate by this administration, the children coming out of this building is more kids than ever before. so there are 11,000 children currently in the care of health and human services. today they said only about 1,000 of those have been separated from their parents. if you extrapolate the rate at which the kids are coming out of this facility and going into that one, it will be 20,000 by august. why don't they want to show us yet where the girls are and where the toddlers are? what the toddlers' care look like? people are concerned about the young children. and they want to know that they're okay. >> let's talk about the heat down there. they put the kids in tents. by the way, side question wlach. what do the pr people tell you about letting you see the boys and not the other children wlach? what is the execution for that? >> that's a good question. i truly believe they want to get us in the places. they have not done it yet. they tell us we'll get you in as soon as we open up one of the places for a tour. there is only a couple of them and bouncing around the country from one of threes to the other. this tenlt city, i believe, will be next on the list for us. we're going to try to get into that tenlt city, tent camp is the way to call it where the overflow crowds are being held right now. but, look, if i was them, i'd make it a priority. the american people want to know. people are contacting me on social media every day. where are the girls? where are the toddlers? it is something i'm hearing over and over. if i was them and standing behind that desk or going around the country on the site surveys tlashgs is t , that would be the first thing i do. >> they now know everything thanked thanks to your reporting. they're splating kids for pr reasons. let me go to peter. what do you make of the front page impact here? i get the sense this is one time where trump has cut down his coalition to a smaller number. they may be against illegal immigration. but not this cutting edge stuff. >> yeah. it is striking over the weekend you saw critical mass begin to build of criticism that wasn't just from the left but also from the right. obviously laura bush, the former first lady, some senators like susan collins and lindsey graham and also "the new york post" editorial page. i think that was why you saw so many administration officials starting with the president himself out there today trying to push back, trying to defend themselves. they're on the defensive on immigration which is a position they're not used to being. and they're trying to get back on the offense. >> do you think they're going to be able to pull back on this policy that they put into effect without law? they went their direction. will they change and give it up now that the heat is on? >> that's an interesting question. any other administration probably would have done that by today just, you know, the national political course of things. that tape you played is obviously very powerful. the pictures that have come out of the region are very powerful. normal political reaction would be to make the pictures and audio go away. but that's not the way this president generally reacts. he doesn't like it to be pushed. he's using this, obviously, to push congress to get legislation he thinks is necessary to defend the border. but if it looks like a cynical ploy, that's one more piece of criticism from people even in his own party. >> thank you, peter. let me go to jennifer. god's children. i open with that. they are god's children. every religion believes that. kids are kids we get from god. they come to us. we're responsible for looking out for them. they don't decide what country to live in. and we have to look out for them when they're here. yet this is trump's country. he keeps winning the pr wars. will he win this one? >> i don't think so. i think speaking of religions, you have really every religious group out there, catholic bishops, reformed jews, methodists. >> even franklin graham. >> yeah, a big trump supporter condemning this and condemning sessions for trying to quote scripture in defense of this. i think peter and the others are exactly right. the pictures and the sound are going to naw at american's hearts. ted cruz doesn't make compromise o on policy issues, went down to the border. he had film taken of him sitting with kids and talking to parents. now he's scared and introducing emergency legislation. you had ben sass who likes to write a tlot of facebook posts saying this policy is wicked. will he join a policy initiative? i think you'll see some movement in congress and trump will will try to take credit for it. at this point, no one cares who gets credit for it. the republicans look awful. >> i think mothers especially. >> yes. absolutely. >> i just looked. you don't have to be a genius to see the women like laura bush and milana trump are making noise about this. this is for real. >> thank you. great reporting. great in the action fighting to get the truth in that press room. jacob, you do this better than anybody, that on scene reporting, the best there s peter baker, i love the front page of "the new york times" because of you. coming up, we'll get the politics of the president's policy of separating kids from their parents doing it sneakily as we is he had tonight. trump and the republicans are on the hook for a policy roundly criticized as immoral separating boys from girls and older from younger so it looks good? he's doing it. plus, long time trump associate roger stone now remembers -- isn't this cute -- remembers have a meeting with a russian pushing dird on hillary clin. he called p himself henry greenberg. like a baseball player. told the house intelligence committee he had zero contacts with russians but now he remembers the meeting. remember what i told you years ago about rolling disclosure? you remember it at the appropriate time. this is set up by another trump pal. michael caputo is going to join us. and the "hardball" roundtable over what is lahappening in mexico. and someone says trump lies "all the time." and the party will pay the price. finally, let me finish with trump watch. there is "hardball," where the action is. with hotels.com to give venture cardholders 10 miles on every dollar they spend at thousands of hotels. all you have to do is pay with this... at hotels.com/venture. 10 miles per dollar? that is incredible. brrrrr. i have the chills. because you're so excited? because ice is cold. and because of all those miles. obviously. what's in your wallet? 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"the washington post" points out, state legislative elections in washington this year will be conducted using the map challenger said was overwhelmingly favoring republicans. the maryland congressional district will remain the same including the district that challenger said was drawn to elect a democrat. we'll be right back. birth name hannah. not a dresses her dog in human baby clothes kind of freak. nah. hannah has a cat. hannah's a freak about fresh baked every four hours bread. look at her utilizing a bread colored perfect gage thingy. so, it's just right! yep, hannah's a freak. the kind of freak that makes the world a better place to eat. freaky fresh. freaky fast. jimmy john's. freak yeah. which is why i use armor tall ultra shine wash wipes.y. they effectively remove dirt, dust and grime with no water. that car is in tip top shape! we are both in tip top shape! armor all, it's easy to look good. and i heard that my cousin's so, wife's sister's husband was a lawyer, so i called him. but he never called me back! if your cousin's wife's sister's husband isn't a lawyer, call legalzoom and we'll connect you with an attorney. legalzoom. where life meets legal. welcome back to "hardball." president trump is lashing out at critics. once again, he is falsely blaming democrats saying they could end the policy. >> we can do this very quickly if the democrats come to the table. everybody wants to do it. we want to do it more than they do. if they come to the table instead of playing politics, we can do it quickly. >> attempts to deflect blame on to democrats, the president is facing increasing pressure to end the policy, even those within the own republican party. in a statement today, nebraska senator ben sass wrote, family separation is wicked. it is harmful to kids. and absolutely should not be the default u.s. policy. americans are better than that. that is from a republican in nebraska. late today, ted cruz announced he introduce emergency legislation to keep families together after they cross the border. they report that even as pressure increases on trump to change the policy, sources say trump views the issue as leverage and will try to get funding for a border wall for a rollback of the policy. secretary neilsen rejected that notion and joined the president pointing the finger at congress. >> it is clearly within their power to change the laws. they should do so. the children are not being used as a pawn. we're trying to protect the children which is why i'm asking congress to act. >> for more, i'm joined by democratic senator tammy baldwin. senator, a couple things. it seems like the difference between the two parties and there is a difference is they want to treat people that come across the border as criminals. they want to put them on trial, separate from the kids and treat them like they stole a car or something. like regular criminals. not as people seeking a better life. i think democrats have a more nuanced view of people coming into this country for a better life, especially those trying to escape hell on earth. >> exactly. think about the fact that many, many of them are the murder capital of the world is one of the places where people are fleeing to come to our -- >> exactly. guatemala. >> yes. you know, when small children risk losing their lives, unheard of violence, you can understand why people take this dangerous trek. but that doesn't mean they should be met with this despicable policy. >> parents that cross the border without authorization bringing children, what should we do? >> keep them together. >> and don't put them on trial? >> wait, if they're coming here for asylum or refugee status, there is a hearing that will take place for them to be able to present evidence that they ought to be asylum people and come into the country. >> and children can stay with them in that situation? >> absolutely they should. i mean it's just in humane that they don't. i agree with those who say that the children are being used as pawns. pawns for a wall, pawns for whatever the president is seeking. this is not the first time. think about that was happening with the dreamers. >> is that what you hear? he thinks he can get the wallabee using this kids as kidnappees, holding on? we'll keep the kids here until you agree to put a wall up? >> you know, certainly he's behaved like that before. in the dream act context. even if you think about using children as pawns, think about the chip legislation that was held up long for children's health. >> yes. >> but in a larger budget debate. he was fighting for his wall. there is something that the president and the president alone needs to change. he can do it tonight if he's listening. >> meanwhile, homeland security secretary neilsen said this today. >> there has been much outcry, consternation and misinformation from many in the press and congress and advocacy groups over the last few weeks that we at dhs are intentionally doing things that are unhumanitarian, cruel, immoral and disgraceful. we are doing none of those things. we are enforcing the laws passed by congress. it is important to note that these minors are very well taken care of. don't believe the press. they are very well taken care of. >> i'm joined by texas democratic congressman. he joined two facilities in brownsville, texas. i don't think it is the press versus the president. they want the daddy, their pappy. congressman? >> well, that's right, chris. we had an opportunity today to see the youngest victims of donald trump's brutal policy of separating young kids from their families. we saw what was called an infant room and one of the infants is 8 months old. he had been separated from his family for over a month. and there was another girl that was about a year old and she had been separated from her parents also. these kids, their parents are nowhere to be found. if you watched her today, she looked like a zombie denying reality on behalf of the president. there is a brutal policy and it has to stop. >> she said two different things which clashed into each other. one was this is policy. she wants you to change the policy. it doesn't make logical sense whatever your motions are in this thing. >> the president has the absolute ability to stop separating families. he is basically engage flg state sponsored child abuse to use that as leverage to vote for a boerd wall. he is treating the kids and behaving like this is a real estate deal where you put pressure on the other person by raising rents or negotiating over square footage or something. he's doing that with the lives of kids. >> let me ask you about something. >> they're letting the press see the older boys but not the younger boys or any of the young women, the girls. are you able to ask the -- as a member of congress, can ask you to see how they're treating the young boys and how they're treating the girls? you are able to get through what they don't let the press see? >> we did. at one of the facilities, we did see young girls. but to be honest, the answer was still not very clear as to where all the girls are. now that said, there are many contractors. this facility was run by southwest keys. there are many contractors that do this and many facilities. so it's also possible that many of the girls were not at these two facilities. >> sounds unlikely. thank you so much, senator tammy baldwin. thank you. texas congressman, thank you sir. >> roger stone, you know him. previously denied, of course, having met with russians during the 2016 presidential campaign. now he and another trump adviser michael caputo say they were in contact with the russian promising dirt on hillary. they all meet with these guys that have dirt. michael caputo joins me after the break. we may be one of the world's most familiar companies, but we make more than our name suggests. we're an organic tea company. a premium juice company. a coconut water company. we've got drinks for long days. for birthdays. for turning over new leaves. and we make them for every moment in every corner of the country. we are the coca-cola company, and we're proud to offer so much more. okay, so... my mom washes the dishes... ...before she puts them in the dishwasher. and if they come out gross... ...she washes them again. so what does the dishwasher do? 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stone said, he wants big money for the information. waste of time. caputo replied, the russian way. anything at all interesting? and stone said, no. neither disclosed that testimony. he said he had no contact with russians. >> i spent my time in front of the committee detailing the fact i had no contact with russians. i never heard of anyone in the trump campaign talking with russians. but i never was asked questions about my time in russia that i never seen spoke to anybody in russia. i never heard the word russia and we did not use russian dressing. >> they both said they forgot about the meetings until the text messages. they also say they were set up. greenberg said he worked as an informant to the fbi. the post says there is no evidence that greenberg was working with the fbi in his interactions with stone. i'm joined by michael caputo, the former trump campaign adviser. of michael, if you were on a jury and someone said they forgot in the midst of this russian thing we've been talking about every night for the last couple years and didn't remember hearing from a guy who called himself henry greenberg, the name of an american baseball player with heavy russian 5: accent, you forgot you got the call and forgot you called roger stone after he had this meeting and forgot all three incidents and forgot them all under testimony and only when the memory was picked by something that in terms of texts that you remembered. do you think you'd believe such a claim? >> if i heard what you just said, i would say you're correct. there is two plinz minutes of m in 2016. i recalled it in preparation for the meeting with the senate intelligence committee on may 1st and the mueller meeting on may 2nd. >> that's two years later. two years later. >> two years later, right. and mueller asked me the same question precisely that was asked of me at the house. in fact, the mueller investigator seemed to be reading it from my testimony, from my house testimony. he said the exact same question did any russian ever offer you any information about hillary clinton? i revealed immediately, yes, a man named henry greenberg came to me and offered me negative information about hillary clinton and yada yada and he was extremely disappointed that i answereded it with full disclosure which i have not done in front of the house permanent select committee on intelligence in july of 2017. we then got into back and forth on this issue which made me believe very clearly that the mueller team knew exactly what went on in that meeting. after i left, i started an investigation which is up now at democratdossier.org and proved that henry greenberg is not his name. he has four names. he worked as an fbi informant for 17 years. >> so tell me exactly the moment when it clicked on you that you had contact with this so-called self identified henry greenberg, the russian? whether did it click on you, oh, yeah? whether d when did that happen? >> when i was preparing for the senate and the -- >> two years later? >> the mueller investigation? >> probably mid -- second week or early third week of april whether when i was preparing. >> in the midst of the talk of the russian influence, it did not jog your memory this memory, did not come to the surface of your mind even in preparing for sworn testimony of the house intelligence committee? it didn't occur to you that is something that happened? >> no, it didn't at all. first of all, it wasn't the only approach. >> do you think roger stone forgot all those three incidents you had shared with him, the telling him about it, reaction from him, both you guys forgot it all. >> indeed. in fact, roger didn't know until i reminded him whether i figured it out before my move to the mueller team on may 2 nnd. roger had the same inability to remember. for me, it was total of two plinz minutes of my life. we were not reminded by the texts. the texts were presented to me after i disclosed the meeting. so that is categorically incorrect. those texts are texts from roger's telephone. how they got ahold of roger's texts, i don't know. >> whether yn you heard about t offer for $2 million you were going to get dirt on hillary clinton, it made sense. hillary is the favorite. why did you decide or roger decide it wasn't worth the money even if it would turn the election around if there was real dirt there like money coming from russia to hillary or something like that? i imagine that's what they were selling. something to do with finance. what else could they be selling? >> according to "the washington post," this henry greenberg, he's got four different names, none are the birth name, he told "the washington post" he was offering information from ukrainian friend who was employed by the clinton foundation and fired and angry and had damming information. that's what he told "the washington post." i never heard this in the conversation. >> i would find that alluring as well. do you think you broke the law? >> first of all, chris, i didn't hear any of this at all. i didn't hear anything about money being -- $2 million. if you read the text thaended the whole thing with me and roger, it is about big money. i didn't know about $2. i didn't know about ukraine. as far as i know, nobody knew about ukraine until henry greenberg talked to "the washington post" last week. >> were you aware at the time that taking something from a value from another country would be illegal? did you sense even then -- do you sense even now it would be illegal to take dirt which has campaign value from another country? >> well, first of all, henry greenberg is an individual not a nation. if he was representing any nation, he was representing the federal bureau of investigations because he worked for 17 years as an fbi informant. but in addition, at the same time, it doesn't matter if it is a french-ka fladian that called me, a german that called me. at the time, late may, nobody's antenna was up about russia. i wouldn't have even crossed mind. fit was coming from a government, i would report it to the general counsel immediately. but it wasn't a government. it was a crack pot as far as roger figured out. we figured out later after i got really interested in the questioning that proved that the mueller investigation knew more about it than me, when i proved -- it's up at democratdossier.org, he's been an fbi informant for 17 years. >> you said that. >> when was working on a lunch break when he met with roger, we'll have to find out. >> he was no longer an agent for the fbi. how many -- >> how do we know that? we don't flow that. -- we don't know that. he filed an affidavit with ins court in california that he swore under oath that he was an fbi informant for 17 years. chris, he's an illegal alien. only in this country on an fbi informant visa. why is he still here? >> you have your own credibility problems here. i wouldn't be shooting air rows at anyone else because whether you forget you had a russian connection for two years, that's astounldi astoun astounding to people. >> with an fbi informant. >> why didn't you bring it to the country's attention two years ago? shouldn't the country know you were dealing with the russians? >> we weren't dealing with the russians. we were dealing with a guy from henry greenberg from russia. >> you were trying to get to roger. >> nobody got -- listen, chris. here's the situation. >> you got him on the phone with roger. >> listen. i know you're fixed on whether or not roger and i were honest to the house permanent select committee on intelligence. i know that's where msnbc is fixed right now. >> the house intelligence committee is as well. >> there was no illegal exposure. we have no criminal exposure. we fulfilled our commitment and responsibility. that's a fact. but what i want to know is why you don't care if an fbi informant who was a violent russian criminal was sent into a white color investigation by james comey? that's the question we need answered. >> you know why? this whole thing you're coming out with at this convenient time two years later, the whole thing you're doing smacks of john teen and the nixon cover-up. >> why is it -- >> it is way late. >> why is any of this convenient to me? >> because you're going to make the case that you were used. >> why is this convenient to me? >> i let you make the statement twice. you said you were set up. because it's part of a setup scenario. >> i think it is a glance. >> you said scenario twice. i know what you're doing. >> can you -- we have a delay here pare here apparently. i know i'm getting interrupted. what you would like me to answer now? >> you already told me you remember all this two years late. thank you michael caputo. good luck with your setup story. >> i hope you -- >> you heard that. so convenient. two years later they remember and they establish this and they put this together. and the defense is they forgot. henry greenberg seld i have dirt on hill rich. he had had a conversation. he seld it was toofaid it was t. >> in caputo's defense, it seems like they did forget. the reason for that is he told the house intelligence kmlt committee he didn't remember. more importantly, they corrected the record tlachlt is significant. that said, this seems like it should have been a pretty memorable interaction. anyone that would come to you -- >> two years later they bring along this little kite spring. oh, yeah, by the way, it was all a setup. they didn't even remember it for two years. now they remember it. it was a setup. how did this clever memory -- not only came back to them, but they -- the defense of it came back to them. >> probably because of the spy gate story. people on the right have been pushing really lard for this notion. there is a web of informants and the fbi was engage flg waing in that were orwellian. >> the fact they're coming forward and michael caputo is nice to come on the show to tell me it is part of a positive pr campaign. betsy, thank you. up next, "hardball" roundtable weighs in on the fight at the border. and a warning from a member of congress. he says everyone in the party says that president trump lies all the time. and that republicans will pay the price for refusing to do something about it. well, you know, joe walsh said other things over the years. you're watching "hardball." it's pretty amazing out there. the world is full of more possibilities than ever before. and american express has your back every step of the way- whether it's the comfort of knowing help is just a call away with global assist. or getting financing to fund your business. no one has your back like american express. so where ever you go. we're right there with you. the powerful backing of american express. don't do business without it. don't live life without it. jimmy's gotten used to his whole yup, he's gone noseblind. odors. he thinks it smells fine, but his mom smells this... luckily for all your hard-to-wash fabrics... ...there's febreze fabric refresher. febreze doesn't just mask, it eliminates odors you've... ...gone noseblind to. and try febreze unstopables for fabric. with up to twice the fresh scent power, you'll want to try it... ...again and again and maybe just one more time. indulge in irresistible freshness. febreze unstopables. breathe happy. ito take care of anyct messy situations.. and put irritation in its place. and if i can get comfortable keeping this tookus safe and protected... you can get comfortable doing the same with yours. preparation h. get comfortable with it. welcome back. amid the growing uproar over the separation of children from their parents at the border, the department of home land security secretary neilsen today continued to say that will is no such policy. let's watch her. >> it's not a policy. our policy at dhs is to do what we're sworn to do which is to enforce the law. >> well, let's bring in the "hardball" roundtable for that one. chris wilson is a republican pollster and jose muno is a democratic strategist. jose, you're up. so what do you think of this thing? these kids are apparently hiding the girls. they're hiding the young boys. they're showing the older boys. but it sounds awful. the crying on the tapes are brutal. >> this is horrible. we're talking about 2,000 children, some of them girls who have been separated from their family. literally, at the expense of president trump trying to get the obsession -- >> you see that picture of the kid in the red shirt. >> horrible. >> that picture grabs you. >> i know. the president can literally pick up the phone, call dhs, call jeff sessions and the department of justice and say stop the separations. we don't need to use 2,000 children as literally negotiation clips hips. >> ted cruz is the most liberal voice i've heard. ted cruz wants to change this policy. >> he introduced legislation tonight to fix this. i think it is -- has a real opportunity for bipartisan support and it could have it fixed within a week. hopefully we can see people come together. >> does that tell thought politics are not working in the president's favor that ted cruz is to the right of him? >> i think this is a matter of something just needs to be fixed. >> you make my point. >> i think that this is a policy that's both political and cultural. remember that president trump built his campaign on immigrants and -- rapists. >> and today he called them thieves. there's this idea -- >> don't they look like rapists or thieves. >> people surrounding the president, including stephen miller and steve bannon from the outside thought they could put this policy in place and people would go one step further and say mexicans are rapists and criminals and we should separate the families. >> chris, do you think steve miller is having a good day at the white house? look at these kids. senator john mccain tweeted and called the policy of separating children an affront to the decency of the american people and controversy on the values our nation was founded. that's -- he's in bad shape too. let's talk about this -- about what happened with joe walsh. the members of the house where he served for a while all believed the president lies all the time. hell of a statement, any way. they all believe he's a liar. incredible statement. >> i covered capitol hill. there are a lot of -- when you talk to republicans off the record, a lot of you give you this link, we know he messes with the truth. we understand this is a lie. we can't say it out loud because we're scared of our district. >> i'm a little uncomfortable with us making joe walsh the final arbiter of who's telling the truth and who doesn't. there's a reason he's no longer in congress. joe walsh doesn't have any idea what donald trump says or who he is -- >> you don't think the back room chatter -- >> i'm not talking about that. us using joe walsh -- >> i doubt he has many friends. >> i think he does for the most part. if he shows up and comes to congress and talks to them as he has recently, that is something that still means something. it's important to them. >> my reporting tells me that republicans are very wary of this president. they don't trust him. there's this idea that he could force them into pushing for a policy they don't like. he doesn't have any relationship with the president that makes them feel like they can trust them. >> i get a sense that it's coming to a very divided state. i don't think there's an easy ad adjudication of all this stuff. i don't think it's going to be simple. jose? i think we'll have a fight that goes on. it won't be settled by a simple vote of impeachment. i think the president with this issue has found the sensitive, human piece of it that i think is going to change some sides but most of its ideological warfare. >> i agree 100%. with the whole russia investigation it is going to go well until the midterms. we're going to continue to talk about this day after day. the president of the united states currently, president of the united states of america, we have to really just think about that for a second, lies on a daily basis, every single day. >> he gets to pardon on a daily basis. >> it's unbelievable. >> here's rudy giuliani today just throwing out the idea, he'll pardon when the time comes. this is how the country will stay divide it. you've got a smattering of pardons out there. the country will just be more divided. >> the president has signaled through the parties he's already done that he's open to pardoning on political reasons. i'll say this, we always talk on this show about democrats getting their message, how will they get it together? kids being separated from their families could be the thing that gets democrats to actually say, this is what we're going to unite on. >> more than parkland. >> in some ways. >> they don't have to fight the nra on this one. we'll be right back after this. or psoriatic arthritis, little things can be a big deal. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not an injection or a cream. it's a pill that treats differently. for psoriasis, 75% clearer skin is achievable with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. and for psoriatic arthritis, otezla is proven to reduce joint swelling, tenderness, and pain. and the otezla prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. tell your doctor if these occur. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts, or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. other side effects include upper respiratory tract infection and headache. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you're pregnant or planning to be. ♪ otezla. show more of you. billions of problems. morning breath? 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