thanks to our trio of co-hosts today. companies are opting out of republican convention. it's having an impact on the democrats as well. thanks for watching. we'll be back here next week. coming up, hardball with chris matthews. conscience of a conservative. let's play hardball. i'm chris matthews in washington. donald trump ends the week down in the polls, out matched in fund raising and coming under intense criticism for comments he's made since the shooting in orlando. speaker paul ryan told my colleague, chuck todd, republicans should vote their conscience and he called the 2016 matchup a very strange situation. still, the republican nominee to be isn't changing his tune. today he tweeted people very unhappy with crooked hillary and obama on jobs and safety. biggest trade deficit in many years. more attacks will follow orlando. last night trump stuck by his controversy called to ban muslim immigration. >> we're allowing thousands and thousands of people to come into our country from countries that are terrorists countries. what's happening is a percentage of the people coming in, i also said keep the oil. i said a lot of good things. i've been pretty good at this stuff. >> for the past five days trump has made tough insinuations about the president. >> we're led by a man that either is not tough, not smart or he's got something else in mind. people can't believe it. muslims are the ones that see what's going on. the muslims are the ones that have to report them. if they don't report them, then there has be be consequences to them. we're taking in thousands of people into our country. we have no idea where they come from. we have no idea who the hell they are. i'm getting thousands of letters and tweets that i was right about the whole situation. i've been right about a lot of things, frankly. >> trump's talk is alienated many republicans. the former governor of oklahoma told the new york times, frequently mr. trump's tone is h hysterical and there's tho reason if that. hallie jackson is covering the campaign. you're out there again. trump seems to be going back to what worked for him in the beginning to talk about the muslim ban. it's almost like going back to square one. does that mean they don't have plan for a larger effort to win 65 million votes this november after winning the 13 million in the primaries. >> i think he never left square one. he's always had this plan. the thinking is why change it now. the question is do they have plan to go after hillary clinton in a more focused way, the way a number of operatives would like them to see. they plan to make the turn to the general election but what you hear again and again is it's donald trump's show. he is the one that will decide what to do. you are seeing him get more comfortable reading from a teleprompter. the rallies, like the one here tonight, it's a different story. >> i'm thinking, trump came into this race with a good hunch. he knew the country was upset about all kinds of things, especially trade. he knew the average working family felt they were getting hurt by trade because everything is coming from china. he had a lot of good hunches. they did make sense politically. the life experience, he hasn't been having a life experience the last year. his experience is as a candidate. he's living the life experience as a politician. it's isolated. you don't grasp onto those hunches, those life experiences that give you a reason for running in first place. he came in with a lot of gas in his tank. he hasn't been able to refuel because he's surrounded by us. he's not learning things about life attitudes, about immigration, about trade, about all kinds of things. he seemed to have hunches. is he not getting any hin chs off the trail because he's in the non-real world of politics? >> he's literally in a bubble as well. >> that's exactly what i'm talking about. >> even when he comes to these rallies, he's not necessarily interacting with people the way you would during the primary season. he didn't get much of chance to do that because he got secret service protection so early. he does shake hands on the rope lines but that's a different experience from what he's living. you see him drawing on the life experiences from prior to his time in politics. it's interesting. it's a good thought experiment to have. it's a good way to think about it. >> i'm trying to think about it. >> he's in this bubble for the last year. >> if trump is not living the life of a builder, sitting in the back room, bs'ing with other builders, his experience is talking about donald trump. it's not that interesting. >> i think he's in an echo chamber. he had 13, 14 million people respond positively, but he can't get out of that echo chamber. he's sticking to it. that echo chamber, there's one organizing principle about donald trump. that's donald trump. look what happened with orlando. literally, first words out of his mouth were it's about me. i was right. look at me. everybody sending me letters. i'm great. >> i predicted terrorism. it's about me. >> i hate to be crass about this horrific tragedy, but here was a chance, an opportunity to demonstrate some degree of leadership that might go beyond his usual bullying and arrogance and say it's sad day for america and here is what i would do to prevent this. he attacked hillary and he said i'm great. >> if there's one thing, there's a wrinkle where he seems to be doing something a little inordinate. this week he seemed to break from party republican orthodox on the gun issue. he tweeted, i'll be meeting with the nra, who has endorsed me, about now allowing people on the terrorist watch list or no fly list to buy guns. at some point you have to decide p priorities. this week people will be talking about orlando and more angry about terrorism than they are about gun rights. they may be more concerned about terrorism than usual prejudices about sexuality, in fact. i think that's smart politics. trump seems to be glimmering here to know that people are more worried about terrorism than absolutism on the second amendment. do you think he's showing signs of life there or not? >> i do. keeping guns out of the hands of the terrorist is popular and probably smart for trump to talk about that. if he can kind of deal with the nra, i think that's smart politics for him to do that. when he's going into a convention, if he alienates the nra, he will be isolated and that could be dangerous. his biggest problem is he's isolated. he doesn't have any support amongst any of the republicans. if he gets out there and talks himself and has no support from any kind of an echo chamber, he has no support from the other republican leaders in the country, that's his fault. he kind of ad libs all the times. that can be tough for any kind of politician. >> an interview that will air this sunday on "meet the press," paul ryan said republicans should feel free to vote their conscience when it comes to trump. >> do you think that members in the house republican follow your conscience. >> the last thing i would do is tell anybody to do something that's contrary to their conscience. of course, i wouldn't do that. i get this. this is a very strange situation. it's a very unique nominee. i feel, as a responsibility institutionally, i should not be leading some cascm. that will knock us out of white house. >> you don't lead it. it's like a big ravine up in new england. what's he trying to do politically? >> he's on a tight rope without a net. >> i think he's a flag pole sitter. he's up there and has to sit this out. >> the highest ranking member of the republican party can't say in food faith, you should support this guy. i realize you might think he's crazy or a bigot, and i'm okay with that. i don't think you've had an occasion where leaders of the nominee's own party calls him racist and a bigot. >> john, usually when they say it's a conscience vote is like the leadership isn't going to nail you down and force you to vote with the party. that's the strange thing to say about the presidential election. what kind of a statement is that? >> in many way, people have to vote their conscience. it's going to be a complete disaster. they unify with trump or find somebody else at the convention and stick them there. the problem for the party is if they don't unify, it's going to be a blood bath for republicans all over the place. >> just to see how bad things are, george w. bush seeing himself as a king maker. he was so far declined, he had so far declined to endorse donald trump. nbc news confirmed that the former president is getting involved in several senate races. imagine being so bad off with voters that you need george w. to come in and help you. quote, in the weeks since mr. trump emerged as the party's presumptive nominee, mr. bush has headlined fund raisers for two republican senators and made plans to help three more. the former president is bothered by mr. trump's campaign message especially his remarks about muslims and immigrants. this is so strange. one of the reasons barack obama was elected president was george w. bush. the people thought the iraq war was a disaster. we were led in by bad information, purposely bad fed to the american people by dick chaney. we have w who was sort of the guy, what would you call him, the dufus of the whole thing. they said he was dragged in my chaney. this guy is being seen as a lifesaver. now, let me ask, i'll get to john who knows more about this in a minute. can you see w out on the campaign trail or is he only good in the back room with the fat cats? >> i think he's getting out in the back rooms. i'm not sure how effective he will be on the campaign trail. you look at where he went out at the end of his presidency. you look at where his ratings are now. that amount of time is truly a political eternity and how much it illustrates how much has changed since then that you have george w. bush out helping people like rob portman, helping people like kelly ayotte. his message to gop leaders is sit down and be quiet. i will do this alone. he's not moderating his message. >> you're responsible for him, aren't you? didn't you make this guy who he is today? you're not laughing. >> donald trump, yeah. >> you can write this book. you have had the deal with him in close range. we have not. we interview him. >> i take notes. >> you're always with this guy. >> i think lately he's ran out of hunch. that is trouble. he is a brilliant stand up guy in terms of synapsis. it's old stuff. thank you. go ahead, your thought. >> here is what breaks through. i think there is something that breaks through what you're calling that bubble. this chamber that he lives in. that's when it reaches a critical mass. after the judge curiel comments, when you have people like newt gingri gingrich. that is what gets through donald trump. i'm not going to talk about it anymore. there is a point that things get through to him. he has to build and build. >> yeah, to penetrate. have a nice weekend. coming up, nearly one week after the deadliest mass shooting in u.s. history, that was orlando, one year after the deadly massacre at a church in charleston, south carolina, will lawmakers on capitol hill get tough or interested in gun safety laws? democrats have forced votes but republicans are still not willing to act. with trump at record high unfav unfavorability, could 2016 be the year a third party candidate makes a mark on the presidential election. be hardball round table to tell me something i don't know. finally, the incredible documentary series o.j., made in america is shining a bright light on the simpson murder case. the film maker is here with us tonight. this is hardball, the place for politics. or small. first to go. or best for last. sweet. or not so sweet. whether 's tossed... or twirled. if it's easy prey. or plays hard to get. every last crunch, sprinkle and drip... should be as clean as it is delicious. panera. food as it should be. trusnumber one doctor recommended dulcolax constipated? e dulcolax tablets for gentle overght relief suppositories for relief in minutes e dulcoand stool softenerstle for comfortable relief of hard stools. dulcax, designed for dependable relief it looks like the path is clearing for senator marco rubio to run for re-election. today u.s. congressman david jolly of florida dropped his bid for the senate opening space for rubio to get into the race. he wasn't planning to run for re-election but after getting bounced from the white house race after losing florida back in march, he's been reconsidering his political future. we'll be right back. speclly blended for your optimal nut-rition. that's right, i just changed a word in the english dictionary, forever. planters. nutrition starts with nut. atp, we empower anyone to stop a job if setng doesn'seemight, so everyone comes home safely. because safetys never being satisfied. and always working to be better. the presumptive republican nominee says hillary clinton will abolish the second amendment. >> her plan is to disarm law-abiding americans abolishing the second amendment and leaving only the bad guys and terrorists with guns. she wants to take away americans guns and admit the very people who want to slaughter us. let them come into the country. we don't have guns. let them come in. let them have all the fun they want. >> senator bob casey of pennsylvania. is this the time we're going to get safety measure on guns, something that protects us from terrorists? >> chris, i sure open so. we're going to have an opportunity to vote or four measures. it will be two issues. a bill that will finally close all the loopholes on the background check issue. i hope that would be the subject of consensus. i hope republicans will join us in that. the second one will be rather new approach which speaks more to the orlando problem where we had the fbi engaging with this individual. they didn't have enough evidence that rose to the level that they could use for an arrest. it gives the justice department more authority than they do under law now to be able to prevent an individual's or suspected terrorist in and they believe or have a reasonable belief will use a firearm in connection with terrorism. if it meets that two-part test, you can deny them the firearm. i think that's the right thing to do. not only to prevent an orlando type circumstance but others as well. >> we all understand that. you've understood that. the question is, at one point does that right, that second amendment right help terrorists. in other words, people that most cases on the watch list, no fly list aren't even americans. why would a gun owner want to protect the rights -- it's questionable whether they are rights as somebody not here as citizen and poised as perceived as a threat to this country, why would you want to protect their rights to buy a gun? >> it makes no sense. it's as simple as can be. if you're too dangerous to get on an airplane, you should be too dangerous to have a firearm. i hope this is the week we can finally make progress on that issue as well. chris, i think ultimately, we have to take a series of votes. we should be taking a series of votes. certainly not all this coming week, but over the next weeks and months. to put people on record and show the american people we have a sense of urgency about this problem that leads to 33,000 people being killed every year and have the same sense of urgency after 9/11 where the country said we're no longer going to allow a terrorist to get on an airplane and fly plane into a building and kill thousands of americans. we did that. we haven't eliminated all terrorism but we have taken that problem off the table. we need the same sense of urgency on gun violence that's killing 33,000 americans. >> thank you so much. today marks the one-year anniversary with a gunman opened fire at a historic black church in charleston. let's watch. >> i struggle to answer why. why my loved ones and so many other people have been killed. along with so many americans i was baffled at how the shooter was able to get his hands on a gun and how we lived in a country filled with so much hatred. >> wow. president obama delivered the eulogy for the reverend, a victim of the mass shooting last june. the president broke out and sang amazing grace. here he is. ♪ amazing grace ♪ how sweet the sound ♪ that saved a wretch like me >> he hit the notes, didn't he. first of all, i have to start with joshua because i read your book every day. what is, it's a great way to start the day. it gives you a spiritual reading every day. there's so much going on. hell is all over our country right now. it's about race, sexuality, islam, radical islam. there's so much hatred flying around right now. >> there is, chris. >> your thoughts. >> we've got both policy problems but we also have heart problems in this country right now. we have become callous. we have forgotten what it's like for our hearts to break for o other people who are mourning and we have to remember what it means to empathize. if we can't wrap our minds around the pain of a mother or father who lost their son or daughter in a nightclub in orlando or a black family who is still mourning a year later after what happened in charleston, then we're never going to fix this. we have to learn how to have our hearts break again and connect with the pain of other people. that's got to be the first thing and no amount of tinkering around the edges of policy will fix this until we fix our human hearts. >> that's a good point. what a gay club, a nightclub, where a lot of people from different cultures would have a negative attitude toward a place like that existing find themselves sympathizing with the people there as americans and human beings, fellow christians in most cases. they look at them and go that's us getting hit. there's such a swirling question about what is us, what is they. it's something else. a black church gets hit and black men get shot by police. this is a very bad time in terms of trying to find the us. your thoughts, sir. >> it is bad time. it seems to continue to get worse. in south carolina and around the world as we watch the charleston massacre, most people looked at that situation and said where was god. these 12 people sat in a church, prayed with this young man and he opened fire on them and slaughtered them. they wonder where was god. to know senator picney that he was was a martyr. which for many years acted as this death star, this gravity field drawing crazies and bigots to the state house and protest and show their confederate flags. that's gone in south carolina. we have made steps here. we have many more to go. we have to figure out why people are so mad and want to take so many lives. >> we're only getting cured by fire. you know what i mean. we get hit an get a terrorist -- we're not sure what kind of hybrid motive. certainly sexuality he didn't like or didn't like other people with it. it has something to do with islam or a little bit to do. we know what happens. it's been in our past. we keep thinking only by burning do we think does it take this as the representative said to get the flag down. does it take this to have people show sympathy for gay people? you know what i mean. >> i would hope not. here is the thing, chris. as you know there's a lot of good decent people in this country. the problem is they happen to be the quietest people out there. there are a lot of folks who operate with civility and love their neighbor. those aren't the ones we see on twitter and our political debates. we need an active, aggressive civility. we need people of good will to have some moral courage and speak out against these divisive voices whether they see them online on in their community. somebody knew dylan roof before he went into mother emmanuel. they didn't confront him. we need people willing to take that moral step whether it's with a possible terrorist in florida or possible terrorist in south carolina. good people have got to start speaking out. >> we're all god's children. how about repeating that every day of our lives. thank you. >> that's right. >> thank you for the book. every morning, i greet you before you know it. >> thank you, chris. >> up next, trump's at war with his party. bernie is not conceding or endorsing hillary. could 2016 be ripe for a third party presidential campaign. we've had them before but one may well be on its way. this is hardball, the place for politics. >> i'm alex trebek. if you're age 50 to 85, i have an important message about security. write down the number on your screen, so you can call when i finish. the lock i want to talk to you about isn't the one on your door. this is a lock for your life insurance, a rate lock, can never go up at any time, for any reason. but be careful. many policies you see do not have one, but you can 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7 signs of aging. with olay, you age less, so you can be ageless. olay. ageless. real is touching a ray. amazing is moving like one. real is making new friends. amazing is getting this close. real is an animal rescue. amazing is over twenty-seven thousand of them. there is only one place where real and amazing live. seaworld. real. amazing here's what's happening. disney is adding fences and signs warning about alligators and snakes. the move follows a deadly attack on a 2-year-old. the gunman sent text messages to his wife. she repeatedly tried to call him on his telephone. the black box was pulled from sea yesterday. back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." many republicans have made no secret of their quest for someone, anyone different to vote for. is that someone libertarian candidate gary johnson. there is is in a hypothetical matchup. johnson is getting 9% of support from the public. 9%. here are the two numbers that really matter. 15 and 50. johnson needs to get 15% of public support to participate in fall debates and 50 is the number of state ballots where he will have to appear. the libertarian party has a built in advantage. he told usa today that i understand that any third name because of the disconnect or the polarization of clinton and trump, any third name would be registering. anybody is not on the ballot in all 50 states. he's a former two term republican governor of new mexico. he pulled in more than one million votes or.99% of the popular vote in 2012. this year he enlisted help of form former massachusetts governor, bill well. a great group to talk about this. what is the significance of gary johnson in this election to ultimate outcome in the electoral college. >> he's another choice on the ballot in all 50 states. he has an advantage. there's going to be people looking for a third option regardless of who that person is. i don't think for a lot of these republicans for whom donald trump is not an option that gary johnson is necessarily one who they will look to favorably. he has never the temperament nor does he have the consistency with the republican party on which they see donald trump as diverging on. >> he says he's not going to use weed for seven weeks. i think this is an odd thing for an presidential candidate. not that i'm an enemy for that drug. i'm going to quit weed now. it seems like a minimal thing to say. he's going to be the commander in chief and he promises not to be high. i think it was strange. >> i went to his presidential announcement when he ran in 2011. he did it at 4:20 on 4/20 because that's the call sign for marijuana possession for police officers across the nation. it's been a really central part. >> what do you mean a call sign? >> if you get called up on a 420, that means you're arresting someone for possession of marijuana. >> he's into the culture. >> it's a central part of his base. the libertarians believe there should not be drug regulation and we should be all adults about it. this makes him so appealing to young voters. millenials who don't love clinton or donald trump might vote for gary johnson because of this. >> he might be out doing old bernie sanders. >> you would expect the libertarians to draw from the republicans but some of gary johnson's positions, he's very open on gay marriage. he's opposed to deporting immigrants. the fact of the matter is -- >> the main off ramp. this is for republicans. they don't want to vote for trump because they don't think he's even enough. >> all that matters is can he swing state. one or two states might be enough. does he get five percentage points in new mexico where he's from. >> that's the way to look at all this stuff. it all comes down which states. i always respected and still respect, that electoral result gave it through the supreme court to bush. >> the people on the center left or left, who voted for ra wilph nader. >> look at states where gary johnson could have appealed. >> name them. >> new mexico, colorado where marijuana is a big deal. those are real possibilities. that said, you look at the poll, 9%, that's not going to do it. >> what are his chances of getting up six more points. >> i don't think he's got a chance because there's still the other people entering this race. there are other people -- >> who's the fourth party candidate? >> jill stein. >> there's also a never trump movement that's trying to get on the ballot to save a space that will ride in. i'm not telling you who it is because i don't know. >> you could have lost the republican fight and still run in the general. the round table is sticking with us. up next, these three will tell us something i don't know. you're watching hardball, the place for politics. with quicksilver from capital one. you're earning unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase, everywhere. like on that new laptop. quicksilver keeps things simple, gary. and smart, like you! and i like that. i guess i am pretty smart. don't let that go to your head, 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[bur] it happened august fourteenth,2008, and we covered it.talk to farmers. we know a thing or twoecause we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ we're back this friday night with the hardball round table. ken, tell me something i don't know. >> koch brothers. >> oh, god. it's friday night. >> they're not going to support him. however -- >> this is good for trump. >> my sources tell me that a top koch operative met with trump. donald trump's campaign manager who used to work in the koch brothers network, this week in trump tower to have a conversation about issues. it's another example that shows that donald trump, if he could just sort of give these republicans or these conservatives something. >> all they want is lower taxes and regulations on oil. it's all self-interest. >> i don't know about that. >> what are the grander ideals of koch brothers? >> criminal reform. they have funded drug efforts. >> they're good guys? >> i'm not saying they're good guys or bad guys. they're interests don't go to all bottom lines. donald trump is going out to nevada. we can see this weekend. >> go ahead. >> mine has to do with the charleston anniversary. i spent two months in charleston writing our cover story on it. i want to say the two survivors, as todd was saying earlier, they want to do something good with that are lives after this. >> they were praying in the church at the time? >> they were. paulie says she believes she will save dylan roof's soul. felicia who lost her son an aunt, she is attending a white church, did i believe stbible s church. she wants to do the opposite that the shooter intended. they are doing amazing things a year later. >> the congressional prayer caucus has lot its profit. the nonprofit organization that runs out of capitol building with taxpayer dollars lost randy forbes, the congressman from virginia, we'll need somebody else to run the congressional prayer caucus. >> you say that sarcastically. >> i don't. >> yes, you do. >> not in the least. >> i have mixed views on all that stuff. coming up, it's an american saga about sports, celebrity, race and violence and crime. the film maker behind the incredible documentary series, o.j., made in america. this is hardball, the place for politics. ♪ in new york state, we believe torrow starts today. all across the state, the economy is growing, with creative new business incentives, the lowest taxes in decades, and new infrastructure for a new generation attracting the talent and companies of tomorrow. like in rochester, and in buffalo,s botox. let us help grow your company's tomorrow - today - at business.ny.gov man, it's like pure power at your finger tips. like the power to earn allstate reward points, every time i drive. ...want my number? and cash back for driving safe. and the power to automatically find your car... i see you car! and i got the power to know who's coming and when if i break down. ...you must be gerry.o know hey...coming in means getting more from your car inrance with the all-powerful drivewise app. it's good to be in, good hands. donald trump can finally start getting ready for the republican convention. that's because lebron james and the cleveland cavaliers played their last game of the year at quicken loans arena. the cavs won forcing a game 7 in the nba finals and will head to oakland sunday. that means trump and the rnc can start getting the arena all ready for the republican convention which begins july 18th. we'll be right back. i asked my dentist ian electric toothbrush was gointo clean better than a manual. he said re...but don't get just any one. get one inspired by dentists, with a round brush head. go pro with al-b. oral-b's rounded brush head cups your teeth to break up plaque and rotates to sweep it away. and oral-b delivers a clinically proven superior clean versus sonicare diamondclean. my mouth feels super clean! oral-b. know you're getting a superior clean. i'm never going back to a manual brush. ♪ using 60,0 points from my chase ink card i boht all the fruit... veies... and herbs needed to create a pop-up pick-your-own juice bar in the middle of the city, so now everyone knows... we have some of the freshest juice in town. see what the power of points can do for your business. learn more at chase.coink o.j. went to usc in 1967. he's plucked out of black community, out of black consciouses and he's submerged in an all white university. i say this, and i don't say it fecetiously, but he is seduced by white society. >> woer back. that was from the new espn documentary series entitled o.j. it's an in-depth portrait of national hero showing how this country deals with race, celebrity and justice. as an athlete his quick rise to fame allowed him to transcends racial boundaries. it shows simpson shed his identity as a black man. the ultimate irony is depicted in the film is why he wanted little to do with the african-american community during his rise, his acquittal hinged on his racial identity. here is a clip that shows how his defense team built sympathy for him in a scene that takes place before the jury was shown the interior of his mansion. let's take a look. >> when you would walk up the grand staircase, there was a large wall with pictures of the family, pictures of friends, pictures of o.j.'s career. problem was, the overwhelming majority of pictures were of caucasian friends and colleagues of his. we had an african-american jury and we wanted to home setting w the themes that we wanted to reflect. >> we took all his white friends down, put all his black people up. pictures he'd probably never seen before. because that's what we were told the jury would identify with. we made him blacker. >> there was a norman rockwell lithograph that we took from johnny's office. and we put that picture at the very top of the stairs. >> unbelievable. episode 4 of the five-part series premieres tonight on espn. i'm joined by the director, "o.j.: made in america," ezra middleman. it reminds me of the old jimmy hoffa case, they brought joe louis to shake hands with him in front of a black jury. everybody thought we knew the life of o.j. simpson, thought we figured it out. then we got into the courtroom, we didn't know anything. i was covering it that whole year, every night for two hours. when that jury went out for a couple of hours i thought they'd come back fast. when they did i said, conviction for sure. i was blown away as so many people were. tell us about how you went into this and what you were able to do to teach us what we should have learned when it happened. >> i mean -- what's interesting about everything you're saying thus far in terms of irony of the case, it seems to have been forgotten as far as what we're really dealing with as far as who o.j. was as a man before that trial in 1994. i think we in the last 20 years especially have, as a culture, dismissed him as a monster. and i think one of the goals of this story is to just show him in all his human glory and all his celebrity. and have you be seduced by him once again to understand why people were so shocked in 1994 when we heard that he was accused of these murders. but also when you take a chance to look at everything that was out there even at the time, to realize why we shouldn't have been shock the. because all these things were right in front of us the whole time and people ignored it. whether it's his history of abuse with nicole, his friends around him, the lapd. these are things that to this day get overlooked. on the other hand, for me this was a chance to delve into the history of a city, of a police department, the a community that moved -- black community, the migration to l.a. looking for a better life, and arriving in a city where they realized conditions were not equal as they hoped they would be. so that was part of the thing that i got. that was what i was interested in. >> you know, we all know, even white people know, i think we've begun to learn how black people are treated by police in some cases noshlgs always, but some cases. here in a case what we found out in the case thanks to covering it every night, o.j. was a favorite of the l.a. police, he wasn't treated like an african-american guy, he was treated like a celebrity. hang around in the swimming pool, suck up to him, basically. somehow in the course of the trial he was made a victim of the l.a. police like other african-americans. but he wasn't treated like other african-americans at all, he was treated like a big-shot, somebody they wanted to hang around with, treat like a big guy. >> part of the whole thing is that in many ways, o.j. saw it from the get-go, from his time at usa. if you want to say he wanted to transcend his race, distance himself from his race, what have you. but what he wanted to be more than anything else from the time he was a kid was famous. he achieved that. once he gained that level of fame, he did exist in rarefied air. that meant that he got special treatment. and, you know -- i mean, that's just a fact. >> let me ask you about something that maybe you can't even get to as a filmmaker. i love the way you're doing this on so many levels like "citizen kane." let me ask you about him. you hear about people that commit a crime once in their life, horrible crime, never do it again, never would do it again. what was it, if he did do it, subjunctive there, if he did do it what drove him to do this butchering of his wife and that guy, goldman. he never did this to anybody else in his life, never did anything like it to anybody else. what happened? do we know? >> i mean, that's the million-dollar question. i don't know that i'm the person in this forum to offer an explanation. i really think if you watch the first three hours of this film -- there's three hours of the film before we get to the murders in 1994. what we're trying to do with that is to really show an evolution of a character of what happens when you go through the world and you have that many gifts. a gift for running the football. he's that charming. he's that talented. he's that beautiful. and he seduced people to the point where once you go through the world like that and you are given everything that you want, at every minute of every day, i think what you see, there's a sense of entitlement that set in, a need for control that set in, even if you want to explain -- parse the relationship of him and nicole. he met nicole when she was 18 years old, just out of high school. >> yeah, he said, "she's mine, i own her." >> more or less. i really don't want to offer any psychological evaluations beyond what we try to do in the film. >> where was arnold palmer? for years we watched him in hertz commercials, they were best buddyes. that's salesmanship -- >> o.j. was best buddies with everybody. >> where was arnold palmer in the courtroom? never showed up as a character witness, never talked to them -- >> you're asking about arnold palmer, you could ask about 100, 200 people o.j. was chummy with over the years, in the broadcast booth, on commercial sets. yeah, there are plenty of people in theory would have been there to testify for him. having said that, i think you find a lot of people like arnold palmer, they weren't exactly going to show up in the middle of the trial of the century to testify for o.j. >> i thought he was funny in "naked gun 2 1/2." "naked gun 33 1/3." i thofs there was something funny going on. you see this in retrospect, that something was bugging this guy, he wasn't quite there. thank you, congratulations. people are talking about this at "citizen kane" levels, that's something. >> thanks, chris, appreciate it. >> watch episodes 4 and 5 tonight and tomorrow on espn. 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