to be charged by the u.s. attorney in connection with last year's shutdown of the george washington bridge. and that the charges could come next month, in january. well tonight nbc is reporting one of the targets is now telling friends of the expected indictment. today the legislative committee in trenton, tasked with investigating the matter has released says it first report. finding that governor chris christie's staff acted with perceived impunity and the deputy chief of staff might be guilty of witness tampering. the co-chair told reporters the u.s. attorney instructed them not to talk to some key witnesses. >> there are probably more than six, maybe even as many as eight individuals that we had wished to call before the committee to get testimony or to have special counsel privately interview, and on all of those, we were asked by the u.s. attorney's office to hold off. i can't speak today, brian, whether any or all of them may be on the receiving end of action by the u.s. attorney's office. and so, it's really hard to accurately speculate when some or none or all on the receiving end of an official indictment. we have to wait and see what happens. >> brian thompson joins us by phone. your reporting is right up to the edge here. the fact that you're talking about perhaps a half dozen or more indictments. you're talking about them, at least one of the people that's been targeted here is talking to friends about it. it could come, what? next month? >> reporter: that is the indication, chris, that it could come as early as next month. the u.s. attorney and the grand jury always have a lot of flexibility when they want to do anything. but there's no doubt this thing seems to be in its very final stages of investigation. >> what has happened -- we're going to be talking to loretta wineburg from the legislative committee. but were they constrained in who they were able to talk to? it seems like they were bowing to the needs of the u.s. attorney here? >> indeed. their counsel, a former u.s. attorney, has been in communication. they said this publicly, been in communication with the u.s. attorney about where they wanted to go. obviously the u.s. attorney, wisniewsky gave indication that this is where we want to go. and you go on to our territory, you could jeopardize the criminal investigation itself. so that's how we ended up where he could say, wisniewsky, six to eight people they'd like to talk to, they didn't talk to, and coincidentally or not, that's the same number we're getting, as an indication of people who could face legal jeopardy here and indeed one of the people is now telling friends that they do feel that they're likely to be indicted, based on what their attorney tells them. >> thank you, brian thompson. loretta wineburg is co-chair of the investigation committee. new jersey senate majority leader. let me ask you about the manner in which you've been able to proceed. it seems like you've been ham strung because the primary prosecution is coming from the u.s. attorney's office and you haven't been able to access a lot of witnesses. >> we could have gotten access if we agreed to give them immunity, which would have interfered with the u.s. attorney's investigation. so we chose not to. but having said that, a lot has come out of this interim report. we have all of the documents, all of the backup. we've got testimony. we've got e-mails. we've got lack of texts, or the fact that texts were actually deleted. a series of 12 texts that took place between regina a gia who is now the governor's chief of staff, and the governor himself while testimony was going on. there were 12 texts that went back and forth between them. and between them, those 12 texts were all deleted. we know there really was no traffic study. that's backed up by all of the documents. we know that this was not just a communications failure, but a deliberate move to make sure that the official family of ft. lee, police, mayor, et cetera, were not given any information about this four-day, terrible traffic jam, which put people in jeopardy. put safety at risk. that much we know. we know that the enabling e-mail came from richard kelly, the governor's deputy chief of staff. we know that the governor's two highest appointees at the port authority, bill baroni and david wildstein, were the ones who implemented the study, implemented the closures, and implemented the cover-up. so there's a lot we know, but we don't know who actually told bridgit kelly to go ahead with this. and that will remain to be seen when the u.s. attorney finishes his investigation. >> what did you get to in terms of the nature of the politics in that office? was there a concerted effort by that office to reward, or punish democratic mayors who did not go along with the re-election campaign of the governor? >> we also know about the officer of intergovernmental affairs, which apparently was the conduit to report on various mayors, how coopative they were, and report back to the administration, of whether or not these, particularly democratic mayors, were going to support the governor. so that link-up is also there in our interim report. and we do know that some of the people, aforementioned, are no longer working in the state. and we know the intergovernmental affairs office doesn't exist. all of those things came out of this investigation. and we know we have new leadership at the port authority. that came out of this investigation. so everything we've done thus far has uncovered quite a few rocks here. and looked under them. and the idea was to make sure that there was sunshine on this, and that it would never happen again. >> okay, well, there's big fireworks today in today's committee meeting in trenton when your republican colleagues, kevin o'tool tried to introduce his -- let's watch. >> here are some of highlights you find in greater detail in the minority statement. >> senator, we're not going to get into the minority report today. this is not a standing reference committee. there's one item on the agenda. happy to entertain discussion about the interim report. >> since what are you in the business of telling members what they can and cannot say? now we have our moment to respond after being kept in the closet for 11 months. you want to say, i can't say what i had prepared to say. this is not north korea, john. this is america. you're now telling me, one of the members who sat through every minute of every committee, i've been here. now i have my moment to say something and you're trying to gavel me down and that's inappropriate. >> we're not going to consider the minority report. >> what was wrong with hearing the minority report? >> well, because we had only received the minority report just prior to our committee meeting. so the co-chair wisniewsky allowed senator o'tool to make a statement and went on for about ten or 12 minutes. he didn't make much sense to me. but the fact remains that the minority members of the committee all voted no. the resolution only said to release the report. they all voted no, and never once, we haven't heard from one minority member of the committee about any problem they have with the report that we were releasing, and that we did release earlier today. >> thank you very much, loretta weinberg of new jersey. the committee report found there wasn't conclusive evidence to determine if christie was or was not involved in the bridge closings themselves. we don't have a lot of time. but it looks to me like they sort of gave way to the u.s. attorney there, paul fishman. and paul fishman, according to the report by brian thompson, is acting. things are going to happen here. >> yeah, it's funny. when there was a week in june when the committee announced this big list of people they wanted to call, and there were people i was talking to, sort of quietly, who were maybe under a little bit of a legal cloud. and within a very short period of time, the committee was instructed, please don't call these people. and a whole bunch of sources who reported as covering the story were talking to them, all went quiet. and all happened almost in the same window. >> governor christie has said there was never a culture of retribution. here he is denying the whole -- what i would consider what you'd expect to see here. here it is. >> the allegation that somehow this was a culture that was created, just doesn't have any basis in fact. >> it mystifies me, on every level, why this was done. >> i'm disappointed in myself that i didn't look closer, that i trusted too much. >> you don't think there's a single possibility that they thought your rough and tumble style, jersey politics style, that they thought this would please you? >> no. >> that this was for you? >> no. i don't believe it was for me. >> is this personal? >> listen, i don't believe it was for me. >> well, i think when diane sawyer went up to the high c, she was expressing what a lot of us would call skepticism. nobody believes you create a culture without the boss leading that culture. you're all serving at the pleasure of the boss. you become the operative of the boss. >> that's right. >> that's the job description. the idea they could create this check list of who is with us, the enemies, which mayors won't support his re-election, and which ones will, who gets their bridges shut down, who doesn't, that was supposed to be creative writing by the staffers who didn't get their governor right. and yet that's christie's public manner. that's the way he behaves in public. now he's denying he's a bully in private. >> somebody had to give. the thing where the end of this committee's work is ending up, somebody either directly or indirectly made bridget kelly think it was okay for david wildstein to make this lane change at the george washington bridge. it seems to have been a larger piece of a puzzle that involves the administration sort of squeezing people and exercising pressure in various municipalities over issues big and small. but operating in a certain way that created a culture where they felt immunized to be able to act like this. and i wouldn't be surprised if these indictments, when we see them, are going to involve activities that entailed both constructing and executing this traffic study, and then selling it that way to the legislature. preparing the legal cover-up for this and actually sort of deflecting the inquiries that were coming out of ft. lee and the media at the time to see what was going on here. >> i think the word bunko comes to mind. like the bunko squad. anyway, thank you. we'll see, six to eight prosecutions, that could open up a lot of mouths. a lot of people are going to start talking soon. >> thanks for coming on. coming up, the battle between congress and the cia over the release tomorrow of the torture report. democrats in congress want it out there, they want the truth out there, the raw, ugly truth of it all, how the cia tortured suspects after 9/11. but there's a warning of dire consequences if this report gets out around the world. that's coming up on "hardball," the place for politics. it's about how much life you can fit into it. ♪ the ford c-max hybrid. with an epa-estimated range of 540 miles on a tank of gas. and all the room you need to enjoy the trip. go stretch out. go further. they take us to worlds full of heroes and titans. for respawn, building the best interactive entertainment begins with the cloud. this is "titanfall," the first multi-player game built and run on microsoft azure. empowering gamers around the world to interact in ways they never thought possible. this cloud turns data into excitement. this is the microsoft cloud. no surprise, republicans have won their ninth pickup in the senate after u.s. congressman bill cassidy defeated mary landrieu in saturday's run-off in louisiana. 66-44. closer than many people expected after national democrats essentially abandoned the three-term incumbent. cassidy's wins gives republicans a 66-44 edge in the u.s. senate. we'll be right back. dad,thank you mom for said this oftprotecting my future.you. thank you for being my hero and my dad. military families are uniquely thankful for many things, the legacy of usaa auto insurance could be one of them. if you're a current or former military member or their family, get an auto insurance quote and see why 92% of our members plan to stay for life. we're for an opens you internet for all.sing. we're for creating more innovation and competition. we're for net neutrality protection. now, here's some news you may find even more surprising. we're comcast. the only isp legally bound by full net neutrality rules. >> even before i came into office, i was very clear that, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, we did some things that were wrong. we did a whole lot of things that were right. but we tortured some folks. we did some things that were contrary to our values. >> and we're back. that was president obama acknowledging the united states' role in torture tactics for intelligence purposes. tomorrow a senate intelligence committee report, denouncing the use of torture is set to be released. it's expected to accuse of cia of lying about the success and effectiveness of interrogation techniques used on detainees. over the weekend, president bush defends the cia. >> we're fortunate to have men and women who work hard at the cia, serving on our behalf. these are patriots. and whatever the report says, if it diminishes their contributions to our country, it is way off base. and i knew the directors, i knew the deputy directors. i knew a lot of the operators. these are good people, really good people. and we're lucky as a nation to have them. >> president bush's former cia director, general michael hayden also pushed back against the report. >> to say that we relentlessly over an expappnded period of ti lied to everyone about a program that wasn't doing any good, that beggars the imagination. >> secretary of state john kerry has warned that the report's release, could incite violence and endanger our embassies around the world. cliff, what are the arguments against releasing this report? or even making this report? where do you stand? >> well, there are a lot of down side risks and i think only vague upside benefits. justice department did an investigation and filed no criminal charges. you have john kerry, the secretary of state, saying this is not a good time to release the report. you have various officials, leaders of the cia, who are questioning the report, saying there are sdortions in it, saying it gives an incorrect picture. what is the benefit at this point? there was a real risk pointed out by a number of people, such as mike rogers, head of house intelligence, that it could lead to americans overseas being threatened and attacked and it could certainly stop foreign countries from cooperating with the u.s. in the future. now, against those kinds of down side risks what are the upside benefits? if there were things done after 9/11 that shouldn't have been done, then this president and other presidents can say, as this president has, they'll never be done again. if we want to have a conversation about what constitutes torture, what constitutes the kind of interrogation we're willing to have with one of the masterminds of the 9/11 attacks, then let's have that conversation. i'm not sure of the benefits of releasing this report at this point or any point. >> cliff, thank you. let's hear the other side. >> to begin with, if we hadn't engaged in torture, there would be no issue here to begin with, and worrying about what will happen overseas. we live in a democracy. sometimes it's messy, not efficient. under the rules of our democracy, our government is allowed to engage in secret activity only if there is robust oversight. we put our trust in senators and congressmen and congresswomen, to oversee what they're doing. when those people investigate after the fact and believe something's gone wrong, they have the obligation to share that with the public so that we can then decide if we want to continue to have our trust in these institutions and these practices. you know, michael hayden's out there talking about a report that we haven't seen, we don't know what's in it yet. really, how can you take the word of a target of an investigation, that the investigation itself is wrong? has come up with the wrong conclusions? that's for us to judge independently. there were millions of pages reviewed for this investigation. there's a 6,000 page report. that's not what we're getting tomorrow, if it comes out. we're getting a 400-page executive summary redacted heavily. the senate committee had the right to get this out with no redactions, but they deferred to the cia. so we will see, and at that point in time, we can judge how strong a case there is, that torture was ineffective and that the cia might have lied about it. >> maybe you don't want to say, but most people are somewhat murky about this. they don't know for sure, when you use terms like enhanced interrogation techniques, you're saying torture in a nice way. you're sort of alluding to it in a way that's careful. most people assume we engage in water boarding and things like that. what's worse about the report? i don't think we're doing anything worse. so what's the real damage in this report then? >> i think what the current director of national intelligence is warning about, what john kerry is very worried about, is that this will be grist for the mill that our enemies out there, in literally dozens of terrorist organizations will say, you see, this shows that the united states has done this, will do it, is continuing to do it, and therefore we have to show the americans that they can't do it with impunity. so there will be further attacks. the kinds of attacks we had, for example, in benghazi a few years ago. this will stir all that up. i think there's a point of that. you're right about the terminology and it's a difficult debate. because a lot of people would say, for example, that you should never water board again. this was not used routinely. it was used only on a few very important al qaeda terrorists such as sheikh mohammed to get them to reveal information that was valuable. but can you have sleep def riffation, is that torture, or is that aggressive interrogation that you need when you're in a situation where american lives are at stake, if people will not talk, if they say, get me a lawyer, you can't do this to me, i'm not going to tell you anything, as sheikh mohammed did. >> do you think it works? >> i'm not sure. i haven't been there. this report is supposed to tell us. >> do you think torture works? just in general common sense terms. >> my guess is that usually it didn't. in the book i did, we came up with a guy who was tortured and then told the egyptians about al qaeda doing chemical weapons training and got into one of bush's prewar speeches, and it turns out he was making it up all along. there are numerous cases when tortured people gave us bad information. and the report, according to the people who have read it, we haven't read it ourselves, says that it wasn't effective. and the cia overstated its effectiveness when talking to the people doing oversight. this is one reason we need to see the report. it should be a question that we should get some evidence on and debate with information, rather than just what you think. a lot of generals and other intelligence officials have said it doesn't work. john mccain doesn't believe it works. so people with some expertise make that case. this report should be -- >> i think a common sense answer is, it depends. >> chris, i think you're right. but i would also say this, and i'm going to press this point. i do not favor torture. i do think there is such a thing as coercive, aggressive interrogation methods, short of torture, that work in the hands of a professional who knows how to get somebody to understand they will not get the comfort they want unless they are cooperating. and the way it works, the interrogator knows the answers to most of the questions he's answeri asking. >> if you're encouraging to believe you're drowning, is that torture? >> you know, i think there's a reasonable argument to make that it is and we probably shouldn't do it. on the other hand -- >> why not? >> well, if you're in a situation with something like khalid sheikh mohammed and the only way to get the information to save american lives to make him think he's drowning, but he's not, i would say that's justified. a lot of people wouldn't. [ all speak at once ] >> i think it's -- >> but the issue, chris, this fallback position, it's the only way. there are a lot of experts in interrogation who say it's not the only way. the fbi interrogators took issue with cia interrogators, that was not the only -- [ all speak at once ] >> let us tell the world we tortured. >> we did already. this report will tell the world nothing about the big picture. so the world always has a reason, our enemies, to get upset and to do something. [ all speak at once ] >> chris, this report will not tell anybody anything they don't know. there's no reason to put it out. >> it would tell americans if it worked. >> and one thing to remember, we should have oversight by congress. everything does not need to be made public to our enemies abroad who are engaged in a war against us. >> the senior people in congress were going to take a look and keep it to themselves. >> not always. >> that was the original idea. >> it came out of the -- [ all speak at once ] >> but it's a good argument, okay? we're going to find out whether it's appropriate when we have a damage report. thank you for coming on, cliff may. and thank you, david, because i'm with you. but i don't know whether it's good to tell the world we're the bad guys sometimes. >> the world kind of can see what we do. >> on a lighter note, today's visit from william and kate, the prince and princess from cambridge, we're reminded of the special relationship between this country and great britain. and we'll talk about that in a minute. this is "hardball," the peninsulais for politics. power play and you break into your happy dance. if you sign up for better car replacement, we'll pay for a car that's a model year newer see car insurance in a whole new light. liberty mutual insurance. if every driver in the u.s. kept here's a qtheir car's you: tires properly inflated, how many gallons of fuel could america save each year? up to 2 billion gallons? 4 billion? 6 billion? the answer is... up to 4 billion gallons. by keeping your tires properly inflated, you can increase your car's fuel economy and reduce its co2 emissions. take the energy quiz -- round 2. energy lives here. celebrate what's new, the bigger, better menu at red lobster! with more of what you love! try our newest wood-grilled combination! maine lobster, extra jumbo shrimp, and salmon! so hurry in! and sea food differently. a wake-up call. but it's not happening out there. it's happening in here. [ sirens wailing ] inside of you. even if you're treating your crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis, an occasional flare may be a sign of damaging inflammation. learn more about the role damaging inflammation may be playing in your symptoms with the expert advice tool at crohnsandcolitis.com. and then speak with your gastroenterologist. >> here's what's haj. six people are dead after a private jet crashed into gaithersburg, maryland. three people were killed inside the home, two of them children. the other three killed were on the plane. prince william and his wife kate are in new york. they're due to attend a nets game later tonight. and another nor'easter with watches in six different states from new jersey to maine. now back to "hardball." >> welcome back to "hardball." as always, the duke and duchess of cambridge are drawing a lot of attention and curiosity on their first full day of their brief, but busy u.s. tour this week. a testament to the special relationship between the u.s. and britain. that relationship was forged 3/4 of a century ago during the dark days of world war ii, thanks in part to the leader of winston churchill. years later, president john f. kennedy was recognize his contribution to history by making an honorary citizen of the united states. >> this is the first time that the united states congress has solemnly resolved that the president of the united states shall proclaim an honorary citizenship for the citizen of a another country. john f. kennedy, president of the united states of america, under the authority contained in an act of the 88th congress, do hereby declare sir winston churchill an honorary citizen of the united states of america. >> joining me now is the author of "when lions roar" a book about two political families from the opposite sides of the atlantic, the churchills and the kennedys. thomas meyer, joins us now. it's quite an undertaking. i read the whole book. it's a big book. what i'm focused on is the two most famous figures. winston churchill and john f. kennedy. do what you did in your book quite well, which is talk about how the older man, the brit, influenced the younger american? >> well, sure, everybody knows that joe kennedy had an immense impact on his son, jfd. but churchill was the intellectual godfather of jfk from a very early age. there were people who saw jfk sick in bed at age 15 reading winston churchill's books. so he had a profound impact on his thinking, his view of the world. >> you know, my father, who is a republican and a real nixon guy back in '60 would say, and it stayed with me, he said, when you listen to kennedy, there's a touch of churchill there. >> absolutely. he invoked winston churchill's name quite a bit in the 1960 campaign. when we think of the inaugural address, it is replete with churchillian imagery, the idea of human freedom, that we should stand for freedom in the world. he took on that burden from churchill and it was jfk who carried it through his administration. >> and he would sit in the bathtub listening to records of churchill's speeches to try to get that depth. that's the part i liked. because he was trying to get his voice down. you know, that wonderful bear tone. i'm not a big believer in royal blood. i guess i'm a typical american that way. i don't believe necessarily kids are as great as their parents. fdr's kids weren't that much, not the greatest pack of kids. churchill's kids were a mixed bag. what do you make of that? do you buy the british argument that blood tells you where the family's headed, who is going to be the heroes of the future? >> i think in this story and it's a complicated story as i tell in the book, but winston churchill, when i begin the book, it looks like he's never going to become prime minister and then along comes adolf hitler and world war ii and he became prime minister in a way he didn't think it would happen. randolph, his son, everybody thought he would become prime minister, but it never happened. joe kennedy's career blew up. he opposed u.s. entry in world war ii. so he was able to pour his money, considerable fortune, all of his energies into his sons. it's something that is really interesting. and i do a lot of the compare and contrast between these two families in my book. >> yeah, it's interesting. i have real problems with joe kennedy and his anti- -- was rampant at times. but he was a good daddy. churchill wasn't such a great one, it seems. is that your view? he wasn't a great father? >> yeah, he was a man for the public. and there was a lot of demands on his time. but i think in terms of getting off the stage, and allowing his son to realize his possible potential, that never really happened. >> great to come on the show. thanks so much. you got to get this book. it's got a lot in it. thanks so much. up next, who is the biggest republican threat to hillary clinton in 2016? that's a hot question. is it jeb bush or chris christie with their establishment credentials. christie has a few problems coming along. anyway, how about rand paul or ted cruz? i don't think it would ever be cruz, but you never know. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. that could be a question of blood flow. cialis tadalafil for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment's right. you can be more confident in your ability to be ready. and the same cialis is the only daily ed tablet approved to treat ed and symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently or urgently. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, as it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess. side effects may include headache, upset stomach, delayed backache or muscle ache. to avoid long term injury, get medical help right away for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have any sudden decrease or loss in hearing or vision, or any allergic reactions like rash, hives, swelling of the lips, tongue or throat, or difficulty breathing or swallowing, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. ask your doctor about cialis for daily use and a free 30-tablet trial. welcome back to "hardball." mitt romney or chris christie, jeb bush or rand paul? who is the republican that poses the biggest threat to the likely democratic nominee, secretary hillary clinton. with a wide open field and historical dynamic that would seem to favor republicans, 2016 is gearing up to be a jump ball election. right now, most polls show hillary clinton as the favorite. it shows the former secretary of state leading all the republican contenders. against mitt romney, a six-point lead. as well as same number against jeb bush and chris christie. when he's put against ted cruz, 4 46-33. who is the republican that will give her the biggest challenge? maybe jeb bush. this weekend his brother w. says he could beat hillary. >> he knows i want him to run. if i need to reiterate it, i will. run jeb. >> you talked about his relationship with your father and how it developed, and your mother as well. and he's your brother from another mother. what does that make hillary to the bush family? >> my sister-in-law. >> interesting. >> do you think that your brother could run against your sister-in-law? >> yeah, and i think he'd beat her. >> do you? >> i do. >> she's formidable. >> very much so. no question. so's he though. >> so you'll take that bet. >> absolutely. >> we have the masters of the cloth ball here today. the experts here. i guess the question, what i found interesting which will confound some of the hillary pros, i don't see her getting above 46% against anybody, even against the clown car, ted cruz. how can you not get 50% against ted cruz? >> people have not checked in. people are not forced to vote one way or the other. if they choose to go to the poll, generally they cast a vote for president. >> i look at poll numbers and i look at the oddball thing. and she doesn't break out of the mid 40s no matter who she's running against. does that say the country is refusing to decide at this point? >> i think it says she's not running yet. she's just being the -- but she's not moving it. she's not saying why it is she would want to be president and what she would stand for. once she lays out that case, then you would expect the number to rise. [ all speak at once ] >> a cadre of people who are never going to be huge fans of hillary clinton. and that's a number for someone other than -- >> who are the enemies who will never change, no matter what happens, they'll vote against her? >> hard core republicans. hard core republicans who can't imagine voting for any democrat. and some who can still hate bill clinton. remember, there were a lot of clinton haters out there and they hated hillary clinton as well. >> i'm going to choose to say that's significant that she's under 50%. because i don't totally agree with jean. she should be at her highest point right now. when a candidate has to start laying out positions, then you don't necessarily get everybody that way. and i think what it bespeaks is the fact that the clintons are part of a long-running show here in washington, called the political system, that isn't working. that more than anything specifically about her, i think is her potential problem. she's so much a part of this world, that to use the tech terms, needs to be disrupted. it needs to be disrupted. it's a piece of machinery that's not working, obviously. she's been part of that machinery for a long time. >> is she like hubert humphrey was in the late '60s? >> i think that's not a bad analogy. that's the risk. humphrey ended up getting the nominati nomination, but he didn't win. >> president obama talked about it the other day. talked about the new car smell. and the question is, okay, yes -- >> do you buy that somewhere for ten bucks, that little spray? >> any car wash. >> so here we are on the lot, the democratic likely nominee may not have that new car smell, but look at the republican contenders, and they might have some musty old car smell as well. >> an absolutely democrat point of view. you want to put a ton of money into it. what i hear from the people with the money, they're afraid of jeb bush, maybe because they're afraid of the donor class on the other side. maybe they think like that. they say, an establishment republican, who is not scary at all, seems sound, a good governor, he's dangerous. whereas that's the policy i've found all through my life, i was working for frank moss of utah. oh, we want to run against george w. bush, we don't want to run and then reagan ends up being the scary guy. so the idea that you think the mainstream guy is the most dangerous. isn't always true. often times, someone outside the box, who is offering real change can be the -- >> the reason the donor class on the democratic side is afraid of jeb bush is that in their heart of hearts, there are a number of them who could vote for jeb bush -- [ all speak at once ] >> but the women will vote for hillary. >> women will vote for hillary, but there are a lot of donor class democrats who like the cut of jeb's jib. >> well said. we'll be right back with that last wonderful iliteration. this is "hardball," the place for politics. kid: hey dad, who was that man? dad: he's our broker. he helps looks after all our money. kid: do you pay him? dad: of course. kid: how much? dad: i don't know exactly. kid: what if you're not happy? does he have to pay you back? dad: nope. kid: why not? dad: it doesn't work that way. kid: why not? vo: are you asking enough questions about the way your wealth is managed? wealth management at charles schwab you don't need to think about the energy that makes our lives possible. because we do. we're exxonmobil and powering the world responsibly is our job. because boiling an egg... isn't as simple as just boiling an egg. life takes energy. energy lives here. >> an update now on the "rolling stone" story about the university of virginia student who says he was raped at a fraternity party. numerous inconsistencies have sufrd and late last week the magazine published an apology to his reader saying it was wrong to place the stress on the woman, identified only as jackie. yesterday the magazine revised that statement, removing that line, and adding that the mistakes in the article are on "rolling stone" and not on jackie, the source. we'll be right back. after this. after this. after this. after th. it's more than the driver. it's more than the car. for lotus f1 team, the competitive edge is the cloud. powered by microsoft dynamics, azure, and office 365, the team can gain real time insights and instantly share information around the globe. when every millisecond counts, staying competitive begins with the cloud. this is the microsoft cloud. well, president obama's first network television interview in which he shares his thoughts and feelings on the recent grand jury decisions that led the protests nationwide with b.e.t., black entertainment television. he told his story of profiling. >> most of them were somewhere between 18 and 25. >> um-hmm. >> a couple of them were from ferguson. when they described their own personal experiences of having been stopped for no reason. or having, you know, generated suspicion because they were in a community that, supposedly, they didn't belong. my mind went back to what it was like for me when i was 17, 18, 20. as i told them, not only do i hear the pain and frustration of being subjected to that kind of constant suspicion, part of the reason i got into politics was to figure out how can i bridge some of those gaps and understandings. >> i'm back with our round table. eugene, this is one thing i don't know anything about. i mean, except for hearsay. people have experienced it and i haven't. >> yep. and, you know, it's good when president obama talks about it. i think he should be, yet, more forthright about racism. just say what's on his mind and in his heart. final analysis, he's going to get slammed by somebody no matter what he says or what he doesn't say. >> he wasn't a gates case, henry lou gates, you felt support for the guy, everyone if it was visceral. >> yeah, people jumped all over him. >> but do you think there's people -- somebody was saying in the paper today that he's not being advised by people around him? or do you think it's natural prudence or what the word is, i don't know. he's careful about everything. >> he knows he's the president ot united states. and not just the president of the united states, but the first african american president of the united states. and he, i think, knows he needs to earn -- he is earning to the extent he can earn on the side of tamping things down and keeping things calm and telling everybody to let the system work its way and to work on the flaws in the system that exist. kbu i thi but i think i would disagree with you a little bit on this. i think he's pitch perfect. >> if you've been in situations where people have jumped on you because of your color and they say oh, you must be a problem in this neighborhood, that's something to bring in the battle, i think. but it's not the same as to say i'm taking a certain side every time there's an incident. >> no, and i come down en route side on this one. i think part of it is that, having gotten elected president, having lived through the experiences he had probably when he went to los angeles to os si occidental college, he's living proof of the progress that's been made. if he spends too much time wringing his hands about his own pass, then he's going to undercut the argument to those kids that they should still be hopeful. i think, all-in-all, he's doing a very good job. >> it's a question of what you emphasize. you know, there's some that show people feel worse about racial relations now than they did six years ago. that's certainly through no fault of president obamas. but i think through this point -- >> he didn't rub the stab off. >> but he's the first black president. and that changes things. it drives some people crazy. and it fills some people with hope and others with frustration. he feels he can't win no matter what he says. >> just remember, the stub in state started to succeed even before lincoln took the oath. a raci a rare bit of fasone here. that's great. yeah, you can use it for a statement credit or even get the cash. nice. i could use that extra cash for a last-minute gift... one less thing hanging over your head, right? tell me about it. (to guy.) gary, you got to go. who's gary? a mistake from last year coming back around again... too much egg nog! yes! laaaaa... at discover we treat you like you'd treat you. now redeem your cashback for any amount, any time. get it at discover.com. when electricity is generated here's awith natural gasu: instead of today's most used source, how much are co2 emissions reduced? up to 30%? 45%? 60%? the answer is... up to 60% less. and that's a big reason why the u.s. is a world leader in reducing co2 emissions. take the energy quiz -- round 2. energy lives here. let me finish tonight with thomas myers new book, kwt when lions roar." one of my memories of the 1960 campaign was my republican dad saying that he heard a touch of churchill in kennedy's salespeoples. what made it memorable was that dad, like everyone, admired churchill and said i'm voting for richard nixon. comparing j.f.k. to a democrat, was high praise, indeed. as myers makes clear in his new book, kennedy admired churchill from a very young age. he was seen reading the world crisis. there would be other signs of kennedy's devotion like his love of quoting churchill on the prime minister's son killed. "the war which found the measure of so many never got to the bottom of him. he went to his fate cool, poise, resolute, matter of fact, debonair." jack kennedy remained absorbed in churchill's writings. mark dalton, kennedy's campaign manager recalled a weekend in hinesport. did you ever read anything like that in your life? a weex tok to the day after husband was killed, he believed was a key to the man he knew and loved. from the time he was a sickly little boy, she told of him spending his life reading and looking up to winston church hill, the little boy in bed so much of the time, all the time he was reading history. history is what made jack, she said. my father had it right about kennedy. he had a touch of churchill and that made all the difference. and that's "hardball" tonight. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes, starts right now. >> tonight, on "all in." protests against police brutality continue. >> i think this would go a long way to waerds restoring public confidence which, right now, is shot. >> then, new fallout from rolling stone's report on gang rape and uva. plus, a long-awaited report on c.i.a. torture drops tomorrow. >> these are patriots. and whatever the report says, if it diminishes contributions to our country, it is way

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