into fear and we can't allow our leaders to create policy based on panic. that would be a betrayal of our best values. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. terrorists without borders. this is "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews. in washington, today terrorism struck to the north in ottawa, the capital of canada. a gunman shot and killed a soldier standing guard at the country's war memorial. he then entered the nearby parliament building and opened fire. here's what it looked and sounded like. [ gunfire ]
>> the country's prime minister, stephen harper, was in that building, near where the shots were fired. he was quickly whisked to safety. lawmaker, meanwhile, barricade themselves behind doors, piled up with chairs. the gunman was shot and killed. nbc news has confirm his name. michael zehaf-bibeau, a common algerianure is name he is believed to have taken. it came after another muslim convert ran down two, killing one in a parking lot outside montreal. last month an isis commander had called on followers to kill canadiens, americans and other westerners whether military or civilian. three girl in denver have tried to join isis where we see
americans residents joining the other side. we'll look at how this security breach on our continent will affect the u.s. mid-term elections coming on strong. michelle shepherd is a national report he for the toronto star. pete williams, of course, nbc's justice correspondent. here in the u.s. we have michael weiss, columnist and editor for the interpreter and clint van zandt. we begin with michelle in ottawa. give us a capsule of what happened today and how it fit into recent fears we've had about terrorism on this continent? >> it certainly has been a fear that we will have attacks here in canada. i think that no one thought canada would be immune to this. and we have become involved with the fight in syria and iraq and that has raised our profile. and as you mentioned in the introduction, there have been call for those who couldn't go
over to fight in the name of the islamic state to have attacks at home. and there have been fear among our community and intelligence service that's particularly vulnerable were military personnel and targets. that's what happened this week. both with today's attack, the killing of the soldier, and also on monday there was an attack on quebec where another soldier was killed, struck by a car. >> do the canadian people see this as an intimidation to discourage they will from joining the coalition against isis? >> you know, i think that's probably what the intent of the attack was. here in ottawa it has been a state of chaos and shock. i think that will be the discussion that, in the coming days. there was so much uncertainty throughout the day. much of the city was locked down and there are still large parts
of the downtown that cannot be accessed and still a lot of information and questions that we don't know yet about what happened. but definitely, that is something be good something that will be debated and discussed. >> i just wonderful when the president of the united states says senseless violence, this is very purposeful violence. this is political. you tell me what the people up there feel. this is aimed at changing canadian policy toward isis. it is not senseless. it may be horrible and ruthless but it does have a point. >> we don't know the circumstances. either both the monday's attack or today. both the shooter and the suspect in the car, they were both killed. but definitely, who they chose as targets would lead to you believe that there was definitely a pledge being sent. i agree.
>> pete, what do we know about how this threatens us and how it is put together? >> in terms of this specific incident, u.s. officials have looked into the back ground of this person, robert michael hall. also his recent convert name, michael zehaf-bibeau. he just turned 32 and he is from quebec. he was not apparently in any kind u.s. terror database. there are indications the canadian authorities were aware of him. what the extent of their surveillance of him is not clear. so there's no direct connection. to put this in u.s. terms, this would be like somebody shooting someone at the tomb of the unknowns in arlington national cemetery and then coming over and firing shots at the u.s. capitol. that is the u.s. version of wham here. we're told there is no further security at the capitol or the white house or many other buildings but they did increase security at the tomb of the
unknowns and the national cemetery. >> so it is anti-military. >> that's one of the targets. anti-government more than anything. >> and anti-memorial. that's the ritual we observe, the way we are so dedicated to the memory of people who died in service and they're creating a different -- >> i think it is too hard to read into what the motive was of this gunman. i think the other thing we should say to ourselves is, despite all the chaos, one person was killed. that's a tragedy, of course, but who knows how many victims this person had in mind? >> well, witnesses describe what happened this morning. take a look. >> on the statue and i heard a bunch of pops. i thought it was firecrackers going off. i looked across the street and there is a man with a rifle shooting out a bunch of people. so we, you know, i yelled at all my guys. there's guys shooting. so get down, get down.
>> saw a man with a scarf, long black hair, he had a jacket and a double barrel shotgun. he ran up the side and hijacked the car at gumt. didn't hurt the gentleman in the car and then took off toward the back and headed in that direction. >> just taking off my jacket. i hear this pop, bomb, pop. possibly ten shots. don't really know. i thought it was dynamite rather than anything else. suddenly the security guards come rushing down the hall ways. >> let me ask but the patterns. we have seen the attempt to bring down the world trade central buildings back in 'people in. they attacked the foundations of the building with dynamite. then of course the blind sheikh gets picked you know because they do something stupid with a rental car and he was identified and prosecuted and in prison. then eight years later they come back with airplanes. and you would not, a fundamental question. what stops a terrorist from going after their ultimate goal even when they're intercepted at one point?
they go after the monuments, they kill soldiers. what will stop the next people to do the same thing? >> well, i think it is a good point to compare to past attacks. and what the security official have feared and been warning of, it doesn't take sophisticated plots like we saw on 9/11 to really spread widespread terror. and you know, both today and monday, what looked like very, very simple attacks. it takes someone with a mission and a gun to go do something. and the ramifications of that can be huge. and i think as was just mentioned, today as devastating as it was, it could have been a lot worse. this is the heart of the capitol and the heart of canada. in a very crowded area. it is amazing there were not more casualties. >> they seem like suicide missions. they knew they wonderful get through them. you said before, if they couldn't get overseas to fight
in the battle handle over there between iraq and syria, they would have to do it here. if doing it here mental they would probably end up killed. >> there is another part of that debate, too. in monday's attacks, the suspect had had his passport taken. canada brought in a new program. if a passport could be seized for those who were suspected of wanting to go abroad and fight for the islamic group or other groups. so he apparently was on the list lou had their passports taken. and i think we've seen that in other cases as well, australia. that adds another dimension how many do you protect both abroad and at home? >> let me go to michael weiss, editor of the interpreter. we are looking at a different kind of war. we have our own police, fbi, all kinds of constabulary. tens of thousands of police
officers in new york, for example. we're up against people who are living a zealotry. i want to read you something from seven pillars of wisdom that lawrence of arabia wrote years ago. i thought it was romantic but now i know. all that dream at night in the dusty recesses wake to find it was vandal. the dreamers of the day are dangerous men for they may act their dream. with open eyes to make it possible. and i just wonder, these people that decide they'll be terrorists become terrorists. nothing stops it. between wanting to and doing it. if you're willing to die. >> absolutely. there are a lot of psychological motivations here. we can't pretend. there are plenty who see this as the great struggle of our time. you mentioned lawrence of arain. i can't this is orientalism turned on its head. they think the way to hem arab civilization or arab societies
is to join up with these barbaric terrorist groups who are fighting equally barbaric regimes. here's the problem. if you're isis, we talk a lot about foreign fighters going on syria. and then we spend thought energy and resources trying to attract their energies. if you're isis, what is more pragmatic? to send a soldier into say, belgium or germany to blow something up or rather, to meet with somebody online who is already tilting toward radicalization. somebody living in his mother's basement, let's say, who might be in london or montana or wherever. and say stay where you are. you're one of our sleepers. when the time is right, we'll connect with you others in your community or around the country. when the time is right, you'll set something off. that's the sort of lone wolf attack strategy which al qaeda prior to isis had been pursuing with great gusto. you recall a few christmases
ago. the one nick nail the underpants bomber tried to blow up a plane over detroit. he was a student in lonl. his father was a nigerian minister in government who had warned the college and the u.k. authorities that his son was tenning toward radicalization. >> fascinating. i want to bring people in. you work with the fbi all the time. they have to live with this. what do they worry about? >> this is exactly what they worry about. it undetectible for the most part. if a person will become radicalized, there is flown to tip off the government. often time someone says that behavior struck me as odd. you think about the school shootings we've been through. those young men were dreamed up these ideas on their own. and in the case of self-radicalization, it is the self-part that's the most worrisome. there are no trim wires, no way to catch them. >> a guy or a woman i guess could go out and get a weapon.
and put them to work. we'll be right back now about the threat to the u.s. this is right on our border. as i said, terrorism without borders is now real. we'll come back michelle shepherd and our friend pete williams who covers justice across the country. stick around. we'll talk about sleeper cell in the u.s. after that attack yesterday in canada, how likely is it something similar, something very much like this could happen at home? for example, right before the elections? . ♪ there's confidence... then there's trusting your vehicle maintenance to ford service confidence. our expertise, technology, and high quality parts means your peace of mind. it's no wonder last year we sold over three million tires. and during the big tire event, get up to $140 in mail-in rebates on four select tires. ♪
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i watched that and spent so much time in the capitol. you begin to fear that could be our capitol. those are horrific sights and sounds on the canadian parliament. our southern border with mexico dominates the political conversation, especially on the right. there is now a very real threat happening from the north. catch this. in december 1999, an islamic terrorist living in canada was arrested after gaining entry to theous a mission, his mission to blow up the l.a. airport on new years eve giving him the nickname, the millennium bomber. the threats aren't isolated to the north or the mideast. there is a growing threat of radicalization on this continent. over the weekend, three american teenage girl from denver were an
rehelened over in germany. officials believe they were on the way to join isis. a 19-year-old kid from chicago was arrested after tried to hop a flight from istanbul. the charges, attempting to support a terrorist organization. last month, nbc news tracked down a person from north carolina who admitted trying to join isis. but couldn't get past theicthe i -- get past the turkish border. you have to would not, if these americans are trying to fight for the isis jihad over there, is it only a matter of time before they declare jihad here at home. i want to bring in cleint, our friend. as someone who goes to bed and thinks about this. how does this strike the canada capitol, this placid picture
post card little place that i would love to be and visit. all of a sudden now has to lock down and start bringing all the big tiger teeth and doors in your face and official ways and metal detectors and everything else. it changes the quality of our democracy. and has already done it to us. >> once it happen one time, you cannot get fooled again. the government tells us, our government tells us, plus or minus 100 people, that the fbi is keeping track of. so many are those who have upon the to the middle east and tried toing who up with isis, those who have gone and come back and those who have been ejected. so we have these hanging out there. then you have these guys sitting in their parents' basement on the internet. they may as one of your guests suggest, be in contact with
someone who says, just stay in place and we will call you. as pete suggests, the other category that really bothers me are the ones that not only, they self-initiate. they make a decision. they're already radicalized based upon the internet and maybe people and friends. they make the decision when they're going to strike. like the guy today. he may just for example, have seen this other convert two days ago, run over these two soldiers and that, aha, that's my sign and he self-initiates. even though we don't have these cells in the united states, we have people capable of doing this. >> we're all in this media world. a lot of people watch nbc news all the time. and they're exposed to it. both the good people who are obeying the law and the people who have pretty frightening ambitions in life. >> much more concerning is the
fact that this isis propaganda push is something that is especially worrisome to officials. these are propaganda videos produced in english specifically to appeal to a north america audience. they're aimed directly at them when they say come on over and help us. it is much different. >> they never had that vernacular with us. your sense about the nearness of this threat. people living in the united states, below the border. >> well, i'll give what you the form he deputy director of the cia's sense of it was. it would shock me if somebody in isis didn't pick up an ak-47 and shoot in rural america. you don't need a speck spend along the lines of 9/11 or even what the so call millennium bomber was planning, to blow up los angeles international airport. all you have to do is just, you
have to traumatize and terrorize an entire country by doing something very small like this attack. it resulted in only one fatality, one too many, of course. but this is not what they would call spectacular. obviously waged on a national governmental, huge symbolic importance, the target. but anyone can do it. that's what worries me and that's what worries most counterterrorism officials and most analysts. >> so one guy with a rifle go to the war memorial and shoots a soldier. >> not even that. any farm house, a school. any kind of remote location which of course will become the subject of international attention, right? killing a bunch of people or holding them hostage. that's the kind of propaganda that a group like isis would look to engender. >> there is something about listening to the sound of that
hallway. the time floor, the sound of bullets. it grabs you as very iconic. you mention, the former cia director said if an isis member showed up at a mall in the united states tomorrow with an ak-47 and killed a number of americans, i would not be surprised. and eric holder offered this sobering warning over the summer. >> these lone wolves, people who keep me up at night as well. trying to anticipate what it is they are going to do. the experience that we had in boston is struckive. it only takes one or two people to really do something horrific. >> i want to go back to clint and then back to michael and pete. this notion that i was quoting from seven pillars of wisdom in the arab revolt, all it took was someone a rifle willing to die, to give their lives, you can
blow up trains. you can do it. get some dynamite and blow up trains. where's the risk? it seems to me if people are willing to give their lives in this zealous, religious crusade of theirs, how do you stop them as a law enforcement official? >> what changes the equation is that most of us want to live. if in fact you want to die, then that changes everything. look, chris, you and i and pete, we all lived through d.c. sniper. we had two guys, $300 rifle, a $20 box of bullets and a 15-year-old chevy caprice and that locked up the entire d.c. area for a month and a half. what if you took that two or three or four times between thanksgiving and christmas in the united states at different locations. that would be isis' dream. >> do you think because christmas time is coming, when people are packed into malls, packed into downtown areas, outlets, everywhere you can think of. even movie theaters.
they're certainly walking up and down the streets of new york. is this when they'll strike? >> every year between thanksgiving and christmas scares the hell out of me, chris. a lot of retailers make 50% of their money during that time period. if we had a terrorist group or multiple lone wolves got together and said, let's hit three or four or five shopping malls simultaneously at the start of the shopping season, what would that do to our economy? >> i know pete is thinking about it. >> that's why you've heard the government in recent days, appeal for the public to give them tips. you saw the fbi put this video on not too long ago of an unknown person in an isis recruiting video and if you know who this is, tell us. >> with a north american action sent. but if you know of anyone else, tell us. >> you saw with it the colorado girls. it doesn't appear they were
steely i'd islamic zealots. what got them stopped is their parents got suspicious and called the authorities. that's how they got stopped in germany. people seeing something and saying something turns out to be critically important. >> that's what they say on amtrak. we'll have you back. i home we don't have to have you back too soon. thank you for joining us. >> still ahead, the attacks in canada won't help calm an already rattled and american electorate as we head toward the election. the world we're living in when we step into that voting booth is a lot different than just a few days ago. up next, my tribute to the great ben bradley. your goals, our experience. your shoppers, our technology. your data, our insights.
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>> welcome back. the world around the voting booth has changed a lot in the last couple of days because of what happened to our closest neighbor, canada. a frightening scene inside the halls of parliament.
a radio reporter happened to be on the phone with his editor when the shooting began. >> i don't know. there's a bunch of gunshots. >> a guy with a shotgun? >> yeah. i saw him come in. >> where do we go? >> it's late in the game. >> okay. thank you. yeah. are you rolling on me right now? okay. i'm in a security office right now. apparently somebody has walked into the front steps.
>> the party, generally the republicans. congress controlled by republicans by a 2% margin. last month women voters preferred a democratic controlled congress. jane newton small, john sten, and david. first let's go to christin walker on the phone from the white house where a new person has jumped the fence. >> that's right. we're actually in a bit of a lock down mode at the white house. the reporters, the photographers not being allowed out on to the north lawn while the secret service investigates exactly what happened. our photographer, nbc news photographer was able to capture video of it so you can see the person over the fence and the secret service official
screaming at him and yelling at him to get back and the video is hard to see but it looks like they were able to apprehend him. we have called to the secret service to get to the bottom of exactly what happened. obviously this comes at a moment when the secret service is already in the process of trying to rebuild and repair its image in the wake of all the recent security breaches including the big one when gonzalez was able to get inside the white house. there is a new director who has been on the job for several days now. so obviously this is yet another security breach that he's going to be looking into. >> thank you so much. this is the most dangerous thing in the world but these are like little boos. you know what i mean? >> it's halloween. it's coming up. >> let's talk politics. we are talking political implications immediately. if i were scott brown i would say you know? i don't want to say this outloud
but this is going change the topic away from minimum wage and democrat issues, economic equality and so people are scared. >> already you saw kay hagan who looked like she was able to break away ahead of republican tom tillis. >> the lead is gone. >> ebola. >> she tried to switch. she did, on whether we should put up the wall or not and stop a ban on travel. >> it has been interesting to watch how democrats for years from worked their way back into a fighting position on these issues on national security. and over the last month they have lost all of that momentum. the people look at president and they done feel like he is doing a good job. notions that they are the weaker party. >> it's no longer the 3:00 in the morning question, this is a sound in the night in your house. who is going go youp stairs and
check on this? who is going downstairs to see what that footstep was all about? i'm thinking the republicans are in a better position to say i'm going to get down stairs with a rifle to see who is down there. >> prior to all of this. the economy has been gradually improving, public attitudes have been, still, a lot of unease. people believe they're on the wrong track. there has been anxiety. >> what do you make of that? look at that picture. >> let me make my point. this was going on for the last few months then you have ebola, isis, fence jumpers, canada. it feels as john said coming in that the whole world is going to hell. when that happens, the party in power, the guy in charge, the guy you want to fix it is the president and the democrats. so it makes sense that right now they would be on the defensive because a lot of these things are not fixable in the time frame that americans would want
them to be fixed even if they're not the greatest threat to them immediately. ebola is not an immediate threat to any american. people are still freaked out by it. >> this is midterm elections where democrats are finally getting the economy back on track. wages are growing. >> obama care is working. >> obama care is not an issue. and yet for some reason they are losing. i mean, it's because of these scares. it's because of the sense of nervousness. >> republicans were trying for so long in this election to get this to be about obama and they were not able to do it. they were struggling and suddenly world affairs have dropped this in their lap and for them it couldn't have come at a better time. >> let me ask you a basic political question. we faced horror. there was a tend to lurch to the left to look for more government activity. >> and rally around the president. >> more government. somebody's got to intervene here. the market is not working. but when there is a security threat, what's the lurch to the
right about? why do people get interested in tough military, screw the people, travel ban, the right wing urges? >> it's fear right? people are afraid and they look at the outside world. it's a terrifying place right now. everything from the war in israel to isis to what's going on in canada and they want someone to protect them from that. >> and the republicans have been exploiting this really well. scott brown talks about eebola, isis and the mexican border. they try to make it about obama. they haven't talked about one single republican policy as they try to nationalize the campaign but finally they have fear. >> five years ago we would not have known about a disease trapped in a mountain top in iraq or we would not have known
about bothe kidnapping of nigern girls. >> we will hear from the prescriprime minister of canada. >> we had so many soldiers over there. >> most of the country, particularly conservatives, we're over the war. there was so much fatigue with it and you started seeing a lot of republicans moving to the rand paul part of the party. we have got to be aggressive against isis and all of these things because of ebola. >> we're going to come back after the canadian prime minister talks about what a mistake governor krchristie mad the other day. everybody makes mistakes, these are following a pattern. david? >> it's disdain. he's showing disdain for those americans. 50% of people who make minimum wage are over the age of 25.
it's not just teens doing summer jobs. to say all of those people it doesn't matter to you? hopefully some of those people tell him it does matter. >> why don't republicans encourage people to make good pay so they're not on welfare. it seems there would be a differenti differential. >> material of it i think is that they are playing this argument of the free market and if you boot strap yourself you're going to be picked up. most americans identify with a higher economic bracket than they actually are in. they see themselves as doing better than they actually are and they say i'm not that guy. i'm not doing that bad. >> we're going to take a break. that is an american tendcy, which is not that bad to be optimistic. >> we are not the british labor party in this country. we are waiting for the american prime minister to make a statement about the horrific
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has taken a one point lead. baker 43, and he is coming on. down in georgia, a new wxia poll has nathan deal up over jason carter, grandson of the former president. i think jason's going for it. we'll be right back.
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i lost my sight in afghanistan, but it doesn't hold me back. i go through periods where it's hard to sleep at night, and stay awake during the day. non-24 is a circadian rhythm disorder that affects up to 70% of people who are totally blind. talk to your doctor about your symptoms and learn more by calling 844-844-2424. or visit my24info.com. welcome back to "hardball." and back to our panel of jay, john and david. let me -- let's take a look right now. we're awaiting, by the way, the address from the canadian prime minister. it's been delayed. here at home, we're two weeks out from election day.
and governor chris christie who is definitely running for president takes an elitist view for some reason on his contempt for the minimum wage debate. yesterday in the speech, to the u.s. chamber of commerce, governor christie not on the ballot this year, but will clearly running for president said he's tired, that's his phrase of hearing about the minimum wage. >> i've got to tell you the truth. i'm tired of hearing about the minimum wage, i really am. i don't think there's a mother or father sitting around a kitchen table tonight in america saying, you know, honey, if our son or daughter could just make a higher minimum wage, my god, all our dreams would be realized. is that what parents aspire to for their children? . . they aspire to a greater growing america where their children have the ability to make much more money and have much greater success than they've had. and that's not about a higher minimum wage, everybody. >> you know, i know he's talking to. the business guys. but we're all listening. and suppose you're on minimum wage and watching that. your parents or kids are on
minimum wage. it's a direct d message to a directed group of people that basically dismisses the others. >> well, there's -- there's a whole branch of the republican party that is very cognizant of this. you've got paul ryan out there. you've got rand paul talking about poverty, rick santorum talking about this. but then there is another branch of the republican party that is tone deaf on these issues, business republicans and christie has proven himself. >> i do think the republicans have come up with a bit of a strategy. not too long ago, scott walker running for re-election in wisconsin was asked about this in a board meeting or something. and he says, i don't want people making the minimum wage, i want them making two, three, four times the minimum wage. ij republicans are trying to say, hey, we don't care about people making money, we want you to be wealthy. two chickens in every pot. >> that's called loving it to death. i'm for more money. >> that's right. and so what he was saying in a much cruder fashion is, what we shouldn't be caring about the minimum wage, we should give
everybody a unicorn. >> the media in this country is -- not that it's good all the time, but it does have sort of a regular guy's point of view. because the most people watching are regular people. they get mad about the weather with the people. they're going to take a position against this. he's going to pay for this. >> he's going to be, everyone -- i'm sure he'll be out there talking about poverty soon. he'll have to be a poverty tour. >> a poverty listening tour. >> yeah, listening tour, he'll have to come up with a plan to fight poverty. because there's no way. you have to, this is a big problem for the republican party. so many conservatives that said this is wrong, not the party that -- >> not the guy, though, to go out and do a poverty tour. he's -- one of his big selling points, he's the brash guy from jersey, right? and he owns that. and he has to sort of accept this and own it. and i do think, republicans believe that the people that are going to be offended by these
comments aren't a large part of the electorate. and if some of them are there, they're not going to identify with those people. and so, you know, cut bait with those people and say we want you only to have that job for a short amount of time or whatever. and you can get a better job later. why should we -- >> 2/3 of the people on minimum wage are women and they have a big problem with women already. they've been losing women, you know, every year since 1982. and so that's not necessarily something you want to say when you're trying to appeal to women. >> not going to go away from it. >> i'd run an ad if i were a democrat. i'd run an ad. if i were a candidate, run an ad showing the people working at the fast food place. we get your coffee in the morning, or the hamburger, fries, minimum wage person. you want to they will them to their face they're not worth any more money. say to the guy working in the hotel out front. do you want to say to all kinds of people working for minimum wage? tell them to their face, you ain't worth -- that's a hell of a statement. >> the brash stuff was working
for christie once upon a time. then this george washington bridge thing happened and his ability, his temper, arrogance and all that stuff that used to be an asset became a liability. so when he talks like this, again, it's just not as charming as it used to be. so some people still relate to it, some of that jerseyness. he's lost his flow. >> used to say, none of your business, emily. that used to be cute. ever since he started stopping traffic in the morning. thank you, sir, and david, who is always right. stay with us. more on that fence jumper at the white house in a minute. kristen welker reports the jumper was tackled by officers and dogs. not tackled by dogs and is being treated for his injuries. this is "hardball," the place for politics.
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