So we begin our show with the raging debate right now about what it means to be american at a time when the line between your politics and your patriotism has begun to blur. Particularly under this american president. Perhaps the biggest ways those lines are blurring are how the president teams e seems to attempt patriotism to mean a certain level of loyalty and love to him. According to mar. Trump, if you dont stand in a fog for him like his state of the union you are not being patriotic. They were like death, and unamerican, unamerican. Somebody says treasonous. Yeah, just, why not . You know. Can we call that treason . Why not i mean they certainly didnt seem to love our country very much. Nothing like yucking it up over treason. According to white house, few dont support his pick for secretary of state, you might not be a patriot. Look, at some point democrats have to decide whether they love this country more than they hate this president they have to put aside the safety and security and diplomacy of our country ahead of their own political gain. Weve also seen this president weaponize patriotism in other ways. Like when he stumped for a political candidate and referred up the base for players that chose to neil because they were protesting Police Brutal it. He fanned those flames and argued those players shouldnt even be in america. You have to stand proudly for the National Anthem or you shouldnt be playing, you shouldnt be there. Maybe you shouldnt be in the country. You have to stand proudly for the National Anthem. And you might remember, he then withdrew his white house invitation a Philadelphia Eagles, falsely accusing oem them of kneeling. They never had a neiler and he had a patriotism event using things like the marine band as a backdrop and humidity along to god police america. By and large the Republican Base has given mr. Trump the loyalty he seeks. And hes turned the party from dictator hater, rule of law abiders to a party that seems to shrug when the president tells them that kim jongun can be trusted. The Justice Department is a criminal deep state and our free press is the enemy of the people. Can you decide whether or not the president has changed what it means to be american or if he has his own definition. Can you not debate what it changes to be a republican. In fact, in some of the most conservative members of the party cant believe it or they dont want to believe it. Its not a good place for any party to ends up with a cultlike situation as it relates to a president that happens to be of purportedly of the same party. What were about as a nation is not being for or against one personally. Again, we are a nation of the laws and as our men of the Founding Fathers said. Our presidency has been debased by a figure who seemingly has a bottomless appetite for destruction and division and only a passing familiarity with how the constitution works. Joined by our fourth of july panel, mooibl michael steel, msnbc chair and kimberly atkins, a msnbc chair and john meacham journalist, author of a great new book. Welcome all. Happy fourth of july. Steel, this is this is a fight going on inside your party there defining patriotism. Look, this is not the first president that wrapped himself in a flag and own it but he does it in such a heavyhanded way. He does it in a heavyhanded way, but i think the way you set the argument at the beginning is how its all about. Its about him. He sets it in terms of his own presence. You are loyal to him. You are loyal to what his efforts, his words are. And that has begun to take its toll inside the party. I think you finds now a number of republicans who are really asking themselves, is this what republicanism is or going to be in the 21st century . Has it changed so much that the very things we once stood for, law and order, not with a stick, but respecting the constitution and the principles that come with that. Are we really profamily, as weve seen over the last few weeks . The struggle on that issue for a lot of republicans. So this president has really pushed the test for republicanism and conservetism for what we thought it was. There are a lot of people that its about time someone put a flag and its about time you know that there was some definition here of what it means to be an american. And thats true. I think what weve seen is the president and some of his supporters weaponize patriotism. Patriotism is something that they say if you dont agree with our views, then you are antiamerican. You are unpatriotic. Its this idea rather than sends us your tired, your poor, and we, the people. Its about me, im the most american of all the groups. So, therefore, these policies should help me and it should not help that other person. Or if i am protesting something that seems as an injustice, label it unpatriotic as with the nba the nfl protests. Despite the fact that Colin Kaepernick chose to neil rather than sit because thats what the soldiers did at other graves of soldiers. He wants it to not be disrespectful. Fallen americans. Its that parallel. So we are seeing the idea of americanism who is american enough . I cant remember in the past where ive gotten so many tweets telling me to go back from where i come from. I go im from detroit. I go back there all the time. Its a nice place. I want to play a piece from the inauguration, paint some historic contexts here, take a listen at the bedrock of our politics will be a total allegiance to the United States of america and through our loyalty to our country, we will rediscover our loyalty to each other. When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice. What did you make of that line . What do you make of it when you hear it . Do you think it rings . Is there dog whistles in there . You know, he doesnt use dog whistles. He uses bullhorns. We can retire that analogy. I think it was an attempt to make a nationalist assertion and then i think they may have heard how it sounded, so they attempted to use kind of a trojan horse for a point. They want a kind of, i think its an elks lodge 1956 kind of patriotism. Its a very sort of right after the red scare patriotism. Right after under god goes into the pledge of allegiance, were under our desks, we are afraid. We used to be afraid of the russians. Its elemental, like so much of trump, there is not a lot of nuance here. I think a lot of us spends a lot of time trying to detect nuance where there isnt any. When he said make America Great again. He meant make it like it was in 1956 again. Which if you look like me and are you a white southern boringly heterosexual man, that was a pretty good time to be alive. If you look like almost anybody else, it was not so great. Whats interesting, the two greatest influences politically were his father and roy cohen, both products. They got success in that 1950s america that you just described. No, i think thats exactly right. When you i love the way you put that, it is so 195657 approach of the world to me, its a reflection of the batty issues hes got this guy is continuously trying to prove loyalty to him as he had to prove loyalty to his father and hes always pushing back on those who told him he couldnt, just as his father told him, he couldnt build manhattan, you couldnt do this. So were caught up in this warped view of patriotism, this warped view of what america is. Which is not a reflection of whats really happening on the ground, how this country is browning. How it is becoming less white. And thats not a negative thing. Thats just a process thing. Look, the politics is tricky. I remember barack obama, he wanted to stand strong. He wasnt going to get a flag pinl. He thought why is it if you dont wear a flag pin. It means you are patriotic, sometimes it werent. He decided im not going to fight that fight and wore a flag pin for basically the rest of his presidency. Thats true. He picked that battle then in order to not be create an issue that it would be dwiefs, that would become a wedge. President trump on the other hand lives to create wedges, to be divisive. You talked about this 50s era idea of patriotism. Its that on steroids because the division that it is fueling is so strong. The 1950s, you saw things like labor unions doing things that helps people of color. That helps people collectively get ahead more. You are not seeing that now. You are saying i want mine, therefore, for me to get mine, you cant have yours. I cant wonder how much is driven with trump and this patriotism thing is just a sole reactionary aspect. I want to play Michelle Obamas famous quote of hers. At the time it was probably the first and last time she spoke her mind politically. Take a listen. For the first time in my adult lifetime, im really proud of my country and not just because barack has done well, but because i think people are hungry for change. And i have been desperate to see our country moving in that direction. John meacham when she said this, there was this human uproar, it became this thing, how could you not do that . That was from white america. Anybody who wasnt white understood exactly what she meant by that. It was not disrespectful to america, in her mind, she was giving america another compliment. Absolutely. The other thing thats going on here is there is a confusion i think between nationalism and patriotism. When contended confusion maybe. There is not a lot of nuance there maybe bonnannon understan that. This is not a conversation wed have at maralago to say the least. Patriotism is a love of vernacular. Patriotism is a love of country. It can be a sentimental attachment. Its quite ream. Nationalism is the aassociation of your nation your own tribes interest above all in the border global struggle. And thats what trump is. Hes a nationalist who speaks in patriotic terms. Hes not the first. He wont be the last. Remember the flag pins came into popular use under nixon. Nixon was the first one to wear them. Because it was a way of saying to the age ofaayre kwus aquarius, im archie bunker. Ill take mine off. People forgot in the pledge of allegiance, it was the late 50s. It was in some ways reactionary to those times. It was. And thats a very good jumpoff point from that moment where we add under god to reagans compromise in the 1980s campaign where heped the majority to become a part of the political process, because there was one way he could fight back against the establishment at that time that did not like him. We saw that play out in the 76 campaign. We have america sort of moving into this space i think where populism, nationalism, patriotism, and faith sort of align themselves and became part of the body politic in a way that was expressed by elected officials on the campaign trail via nixon and as we see by this president today in the oval office. You know one of the other things i think blurs this, probably made the president comfortable doing the nfl attack is how much sort of our public life where we sort of were, particularly in the sporting world, where they usually throw certain patriotic things at the entire audience. Everybody has to participate in this. Is it numbing people to it . I always wondered, is it not helping the cause of patriotism in some ways, in the ways that we shove it into things like sporting events and recreation and ways that feel, that cause problem problems . Its a theological point that has an expression in the soes logical issue you are raising, which is if you have to compel something, its not a part of the culture. The reason we have free will in theological terms is because the creator, if he just created us and said, you have to follow me, there is no other choice that takes the fun out of it. I this toy some extent, i love going to Football Games and baseball games. I love the Football Games and 7th inning stretch. Its all great. Whenever you can have kate smith involved in anything, its just good. But if its compulsory, then you are removing the action of a scent and the prime factor. Its a decision, you have to stands up when the allegiance is played or the anthem is played. That is that compulsion. That says you have to do eight certain way. I think you have to add the extra layer here, that who is the president compelling to do something . It is these players, these players that are largely people of color and it leads to the same, he, himself, says that that aspect plays to the same base as his zero tolerance policy at the border crossing. Its the president , himself, that put those things together. It shows the president s view of america is not one that includes fully or respects people of color and you they lot of people of color july 4th which is already a fraught holiday for us it is a reminder. I will pause the conversation here. Up ahead on this independence day, the battle over taking a stands the nfl is now cracking down on players who neil for protests. Could that just ends up encouraging more protests. 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Thats why Xfinity Mobile lets you pay for data one gig at a time. And with millions of wifi hotspots included, youll pay less for data. Its a new kind of network designed to save you money. Click, call or visit a store today. Certainly the president has been very clear his position is in regards to the National Anthem. Weve never wavered on that. The president thinks that people should stand for the National Anthem, particularly when it comes to the nfl. Its not about a particular team. Its about having pride in our country and about being respectful to the men and women who have fought and died to preserve our country. Welcome back. As we have been talking about sports and particularly the nfl having increasingly become a battlegrounds and the politicalization of patriotism, because of the protests that began two seasons ago when Colin Kaepernick began protests minorities in the United States. Other teams soon followed his lead. Last month, President Trump used the anthem protest as a part of his justification for can selling a celebration for the super bowl champion with the Philadelphia Eagles when they were supposed to visit the white house. And President Trump guaranteed theyd stop for the anthem the nfl decided that all players who were on the field must stand or their team will be subject to a fine. Players will have the option of staying in the locker room. Recently i spoke to a Senior Writer at espn. Com and nbc Sports Correspondent and author of the heritage black athletes and the politics of patriotism. I started asking him about the new rules and this quote unquote compromise that seems to be a recipe for more protests. This is a recipe for disaster. It appears the nfl has simply decided to engage in the culture wars that the president started back in september when he called the players s. O. B. S and Colin Kaepernick, in particular. When that happened last year, the owners and the players came together because they recognize their business was in a little bit of trouble. Remember, you had jerry jones taking a knee last year with other owners in solidarity with the players. Then on top of that you have the players making a deal with ownership last december that they were going to collaborate and partner on social justice and so they ratified that deal a couple days ago and then the owners come back with this . I talk to players. I talk to people in the Players Association who told me that this is fuel. Instead of this being over, its just beginning. Is this with a lack of leadership by Roger Goodell . Are there a handful of owners that just are handcuffing him . To me, a good leader, somebody who has control of their organization would have said the following, mr. President , we appreciate your point of view on this, we here also love the flag and love this country. You worry about the country. Well worry about the league. We appreciate your input. And then end of story. Why cant Roger Goodell, why doesnt he have that kind of sway within the nfl. There is a couple reasons, lets not forget the nfl owners who gave mo into the campaign. Lets not forget how afraid the nfl owne