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Towards explaining trumps furious and desperate efforts towards using all the levers of the u. S. Government he leads to keep his tax returns th s hiddem the public. We should note that nbc news has not independently reviewed the documents, but the investigation as laid out by the times is both intricate and simple. Intricate, because it takes us deep inside a heavily leveraged and largely failed Family Business that was always a thin veneer over Donald Trumps shameless scams and potentially illegal fraud. But simple, because it suggests that he chaeeats on his taxes, facing massive debt, is being paid millions of dollars by foreigners, and is at risk for bankruptcy, criminal tax fraud, criminal bank fraud, and blackmail. Other than that, nothing to see here. From that blockbuster report, quote, as the president wages a Reelection Campaign that polls say he is in danger of losing, his finances are under stress, beset by losses and hundreds of millions of dollars in debt coming due that he has personally guaranteed. Also hanging over him is a decadeslong audit battle with the irs over the legitimacy of a 72. 9 million tax refund that he claimed and received after declaring huge losses. An adverse ruling could cost him more than 100 million. The times investigation also reveals that donald trump paid 750 in federal income taxes the year he won the presidency and another measly 750 the first year in office. Here are the other big scoops in the times reporting. First, that the president is under extreme financial pressurpressur pressure. Quote, mr. Trump has reported losses at many of his signature hotels, including 55. 5 million at his Washington Hotel and 15 million at his prized golf resort since 2000. He appears to have sold off most of his stocks and has relied heavily on debt. More than 300 million in loans he personally guarantee willed come due soon. Second, no normal person could get cleared by the fbi or the cia to work in a white house or any part of the administration with that kind of debt, for fear that undue influence could be exerted on him or her. The times also reports, quote, with financial challenges mounting, mr. Trump depends on businesses that can pose a conflict of interest. His properties have become bazaars for collecting money from foreign officials, and he earned millions oin licensing fees from International Projects in his first two years in office, including 3 million in the philippines, 2. 3 million from india and 1 million from turkey. The corruption of u. S. Foreign policy long suspected by former National Security adviser john bolton and communicated to ag barr when it came to turkey sounds even more plausible now, doesnt it . The president , as an overleveraged potential tax fraud is where we start today. Senior columnist at bloomberg opinion, tim obrien, is here. Hes been looking at trumps money for a long, long time. Frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant and director for counterintelligence is back. Frank is the author of the forthcoming book, the fbi way. Also with us, New York Times chief white house correspondent, peter baker. Peter baker, out with a new book, too, in which we hope to have him back to talk to about this week. Its called the man who ran washington the life and times of james baker. Let me start with you, peter baker, on this stunning piece of reporting in the times. Take me through any highlights i missed or add context wherever you think it needs some. I think you hit the highlights. I think this tells us a lot about the president s own businesses, it tells us about his current and past financial conditions. Hit i. It tells us a lot about his reasons for hiding these income tax forms all these years, taking that case all the way to the Supreme Court. And i think it tells us that this is a president who has presented himself as something that he is not, which is to say, you know, a high successful businessman who, you know, is top of his game and has always been successful when, in fact, what hes told the irs, anyway, is that hes taken loss after loss on business after business over the years. And i think that there are so many different details in here, the 750 figure is obviously just stunning and striking so many people, americans, of course, pay so much more than that. Claiming the deductions, writing off 70,000 in hair styling expenses from when he was on the apprentice. There seems to be, you know, some consulting money that was paid to his daughter, all sorts of things in the documents that hes tried to hide for now four years and longer. And peter, we should say that hes denied some of this. Theres a statement in the New York Times reporting that is a pretty narrow and parsed denial, but heres trump admitting that the federal government is stupid for giving him tax credits. Lets listen. Or cohen describing it. Lets listen. When telling me in 2008 or 2009 that he was cutting employees salaries in half, including mine, he showed me what he claims was a 10 million irs tax refund. And he said that he could not believe how stupid the government was for giving someone like him that much money bac back. So, peter, lest his followers or anyone not sure what to believe that this is conduct that trump wouldnt engage in, according to someone who worked very closely with him, this was his operating ethos. And i want to hit on two followups to that. One, it was always known to a small group of people around him that the business was not some grand, thriving thing. It was a family office. He sat in his office with a marker, marked up newspaper clips and sent them around. His obsession them is very similar to his obsession now. Its not the bigness of the job, its the small thing around its edges. This reporting seems to confirm that. Well, it does. And one of the things that i think is really striking, too, even now, even when hes in the oval office and serving the government and the public, he has 300 million in debt that he has personally, you know, obligated to repay coming due in the next four years. In the next four years, when he wants to serve a second term as president , these banks will decide whether or not to foreclose on a president of the United States for massive amounts of debt. And i think that that raises all sorts of issues in its own right, right . This is not a president thats flush with money, and therefore independent of outside interests. Its quite the opposite. Hes on the hook to outside interests in a very, very big and very personal way. You know, picking up on that point, frank figliuzzi, if you had too much credit card debt, you couldnt clear a background check to work at the white house. We know from reporting in the New York Times and other accounts that ivanka and jared didnt clair their background checks. There were flags not just at the fbi, but at the cia. And john kelly and don mcgahn were overruled, trump gave them a clearance. Could they all have similar baggage, similar concerns of being vulnerable to corrupt influences . Yeah, look, youve just discussed the fact that ivanka is now wrapped up in this, because shes been claimed as a business expense for her consulting compensation while shes an employee of the Trump Organization. So theyre exposed in this. And it might be part of why we saw so many concerns about Jared Kushner getting a security clearance. But im here to tell you, nicole, that if this applicant named donald j. Trump were presented to the fbi to work in the cafeteria of tat the hoover building, it would be disqualified for the financial mess that this reflects, for far less than what this reflects. Hundreds of millions of dollars coming due on a personal hook for the president. The judgment alone is questionable, that he would put his name personally and be liable for that. And then when you look at the you know, its very simple cost benefit analysis and how much money do you have coming in . Its done for fbi employees throughout the government, all agencies, if youre going to have a clearance, its a simple question. Do you have more coming in than is going out or not . Wheres it coming from . And where is it going . And you will look at these tax returns and you see not only whats called tax avoidance, but you see clear violations with regard to air khaircut expenses clothing expenses that you and i cant take per our tax accountants, but apparently hes found a way to do. How do you respond to that . One is to say that its fake, but the New York Times actually has advertise this tax. Or he can say, i wasnt engaged, i knew nothing of what was going on. But hes screwed. Hes essentially invoking his fifth amendment rights against selfincrimination when he wont release his tax returns publicly. He doesnt want us to see whats there, not only because its embarrassing, but because it may be evidence of a crime. Let me stay with that frank figliuzzi. It may be evidence of a crime if its being investigated by irs enforcement division. Is trump in a position to obstruct this investigation the way he obstructed the Mueller Probe, the way hes obstructed other criminal investigations into himself if that circumstance comes to pass . Yeah, we need answers on this very question. Dont forget, firthe irs is parf the treasury department. The secretary of the treasury is mr. Mnuchin, a buddy and kind of a henchman of the president. So i need to see congress engage in this and ask the hard question. Where is this audit . How long has this been going on . Has it been stymied . Lets remember, when the president says, i cant release my tax returns because im under audit, what we now know through the New York Times reporting is confirmed is this is no routine audit. It was triggered automatically because of the massive tax refund that he got and the massive losses that he was claiming, which put him in some years of the reporting among the top losses of individuals in the United States. You know, tim obrien, youve been following the money. Youve been sued for reporting on the money. Ive got a bunch of specific questions for you, and i want to read some of your reporting today. But at first blush, what does this tell the rest of us that we didnt already know about donald trump . Well, i think it has to be in the context of his president , and thats what makes it all unique. You have someone who engineered the biggest tax cut in i think since the second world war, that largely benefited affluent americans and Corporate America while unbeknownst to most other americans, he, himself, wasnt paying anything in federal income taxes. The average american that donald trump said he was going to washington, to go to battle for, hes essentially been laughing at and not even paying taxes at the most in excess of the most lowincome taxpayers in america. Secondly, donald trump is a major National Security problem, in and of himself. I think the times allowbalowb the amount of debt that trump has. They may have been speaking specifically about whats coming due shortterm, trump has at least 1. 1 billion in debt. He may have around 2 billion in assets. Theres a 1 billion gap there. The issue is going to come the problem for donald trump is that hes in industries that have been creamed by the coronavirus. Commercial and residential real estate, travel, leisure, et cetera. As he gets squeezed and money comes due, is donald trump going to be a mark for foreign interests that want to squeeze him with the idea of helping bail him out . And thats not a new development. That has been hanging over him since he was inaugurated. The beauty and the value of what tthe times has done is theyv put numeric clothing on all of this. You know, i want to press all of you on what this does to the trump brand. I remember during the 2015 and 2016 fuzzy coverage of trump as this real political phenomenon, one of his sons said, oh, hes a blue collar billionaire, but the whole brand was always wrapped in wealth. If it turns out that the wealth was a big lie, tim obrien, what is the sort of political exposure that Donald Trumps done . And i want to put one more data point in the constellation. He thinks e of people in the military and who serve their country are suckers and at best doesnt understand why they serve. It appears that he thinks people who pay their taxes are idiots. That people with good accountants can find a way not to do so. He makes a mockery of all the rules that people have to live by, which is the exact political cudgel he used against hillary clinton. Hes laughable he ever made those claims. Nicole, donald trump is not a wealthy man. Hes never been as wealthy as he says he is. He is not worth 10 billion, but he is comfortably, comfortably wealthy. And that is the issue here. I dont think donald trump is about to go broke anytime soon, but that will develop. What this reveals, though, is you are entitled to get massive benefits from the federal tax code because you are wealthy. In particular if youre in real estate. There are all sorts of gimmicks and writeoffs you can do if youre a Real Estate Developer and its common among all of the large Real Estate Developers, to wind up paying nil in taxes. And i think the real scandal here is whats legal. Now, whats illegal is the stuff thats going to get him in trouble with the new York District attorney with the manhattan district attorneys office. Thats going to await him, i think, long after he leaves the white house if he doesnt win this election this year. Hes got Serious Problems in his accounting and in his taxes that are possibly criminal. And he and his children are going to have to face up to that. But the donald trump brand has always been a con and a grift. Its about this idea that hes a selfmade man who can teach everyone else in the United States how to become just as wealthy as he is. When, in fact, hes somebody who was born on third base and has constantly said he hit a triple. He inherit eed a lot of money fm his father, blew a lot of that money. He remains comfortably wealthy, but does not care a jot for the average American Voters who have put their faith and their confidence in him, that he was going to washington to change things. So the institutions that they perceived were taking advantage of them would no longer do nap and now lo and behold, donald trump has completely revealed as somebody whos been taking advantage for decades, not just years, but decades. You know, peter baker, one of the more serious issues this raises for him as president and having worked in politics, i remember dealing with this for politicians i worked for, who had careers in business before they came to office, that were a shadow of what hes got. But let me read from the reporting on his penchant of profiting off the presidency. The records go much further towards revealing the actual and potential conflicts of interest created by mr. Trumps refusal to divest himself of his business interests wi s while i white house. His properties have become bazaars for collecting money from lobbyists, foreign officials, and others seeking face time, access, or favors. The records for the first time put precise dollar figures on those transactions. At the Maralago Club in palm beach, a flood of new members starting in 2015 allowed him to pocket an additional 5 million a year from the business. And the times and others have reported on his pushing his other properties, he pushed doral for a meeting of the g7. Hes pushed the scotland property for other gatherings. He has mixed business and the president s in an unprecedented way. Thats exactly right. Other president s have had business interests, of course, and there have, in fact, been concerns about conflicts at times, but nothing like this. Nothing on the scale of this. The president didnt put his assets in a blind trust. Hes still basically running the company through his children. He may not be spending much time on it, but certainly profiting from it. And in fact, the outside world knows that if you want to, you know, get in with the trump, you know, clique, you go to trump hotel in washington. You go to doral, you go to all of these different places and become a member of maralago. This has become part and parcel of the trump world and theyre inextricable. They cannot be severed and they have not been severed. So weve seen multiple lawsuits trying to enforce whats called the emoluments clause of the constitution, that says that the president or a federal official cant take money from a foreign interest, and that so far has not been successful in the courts. One thing that we discovered in these tax records that we did not know whether it would be in there or not, my colleagues did not see additional evidence of particular ties to russia that we have thought could be in there. One of the reasons why people speculated on why he might be hiding these tax forms is there doesnt seem to be additional financial contact with russia that we expected. But there are so many other places. You already pointed out with turkey and all of these other questions that they raise all sorts of other questions. I want to end on peters point with you, frank figliuzzi. Peters interviewed john bolton. One of the most alarming things he describes in the book is a couple of phone calls he made to attorney general barr about concerns there had been a comingling of the countrys Foreign Policy and Donald Trumps either personal or business interests. And one of those countries was turkey. The policy decisions trump has made that benefit turkey repelled jim mattis, they involved allowing a bunch all of our kurdish allies to be slaughtered with that invasion he allowed erdogan to proceed with. It turns out all of those lives, those allies were worth 1 million to him on the tax documents we read about. When he look at the actions of trump in the Foreign Policy arena through a financial lens, and its not just a profiteering lens, it is a survival, existential factor for him. When you look at debt and understand he has to make a profit from his protest or hes facing potential bankruptcy on a personal level, you now know what drives him and what actually could be the compromise in his life. You used the phrase earlier, the big lie, to describe this perpetuation of the facade. You only need to look to a guy named general Michael Flynn to see the counterintelligence aspect of what it means to try and profit from your position and what it means to hide a lie that someone else can help you hide. So flynn lied to the fbi, for reasons that still escape us, but the president has been lying aboutacumen and his wealth. So a foreign power comes along and says, we can help. You do this for us, well help with the finances. I have to tell you from a counterintelligence operator standpoint, if we saw a target with this kind of debt, this kind of possible fraud and tax avoidance at his country, we would be on him like crazy to recruit him and offer him whatever he needed to get out of his troubles. That is the precise topic that we are going to turn to next with frank and peter strzok, whos joining us in just a moment. Peter baker and tim obrien, thank you both for starting us off. And peter, congrats to your paper on this unbelievably informative scoop. When we come back, well dive into the counterintelligence threats that trump has possibly opened the country up to by someone who was there, someone who worked on an early counterintelligence investigation into the president. The aforementioned peter strzok. Plus, who else could trump have tested for loyalty as he did jim comey at the start of his presidency. This as we learned more about potential compromise he could be under. Well ask the man who spent months studying jim comey, acclaimed actor jeff daniels is our guest. Well talk to him about all of the days headlines and what he says is the struggle to be an apolitical Public Servant in todays america. All of those stories and more when deadline white house cons continues in just a moment. Dont go anywhere. Inues in justt dont go anywhere. Ners who have turned into their parents. Im having a big lunch and then just a snack for dinner. So were using a speakerphone in the store. Is that a good idea . One of the ways i do that is to get them out of the home. Youre looking for a grout brush, this is garth, did he ask for your help . No, no. No. We all see it. We all see it. He has blue hair. Okay. Blue. Progressive cant protect you from becoming your parents, but we can protect your home and auto when you bundle with us. Keep it coming. You dont know him. The New York Times bombshell reporting about Donald Trumps tax returns also reveals foreign entanglements that could make him a serious threat to our countrys National Security. According to the times, trump is, quote, personally responsible for loans and other debts totaling 421 million with most of it coming due within four years. And in his first two years in the white house, his revenue from abroad totaled 73 million. Those kinds of foreign receipts and the mystery of to whom he owes all of that money do little to diminish the theory that trump could be compromised. In the chapter of kompromat that exists in the Senate Report about russias undue influence is something that our next guest writes about in his new book. Peter strzok tweeted last night, quote, this is a road map of some of the ways trump is compromised. In the hands of hostile intelligence service, these millions of dollars represent coercive leverage over trump, as a result of undisclosed foreign financial deals while he was president. Peter strzok joins our conversation. Hes a former fbi Deputy Assistant director of counterintelligence. Hes also the author of the new book compromised. Frank figliuzzi remains with us. Peter, i saw your tweet last night and i clipped it and sent it to my team and im thrilled that youre here to talk to us about it. But this seems like precisely the sort of what animated a lot of the angst about donald trump and his ties to russia or it would appear other foreign governments. Talk about it. Thats absolutely right, nicole. Thanks for having me here. Part of the concern of any counterintelligence professional is looking for these hidden financial entanglements. And watching and having done that over six different administrations, every foreign country is trying to use money to get leverage and influence on any given presidency. What the information in the New York Times reports out of those tax records, the breadth and volume of that monetary back and forth is stunning. Its simply unprecedented. And in any president in modern history. So if you look at the ways that can be used to, as leverage over trump, you have to think of this first and foremost as a National Security issue. Yes, this is a financial issue, but first and foremost, the ways that it can be used to impact the National Security of the United States, by the way, can be used against trump is unprecedented. And is deeply concerning. You know, peter baker said in the last block that the times tax return data didnt include any new dots connecting back to russia, but it would seem to make the old ones and the new ones of things that have happened since hes president all the more concerning. Can you talk about, if the counterintelligence investigation had proceeded and theres good reason to believe that it didnt for a host of reasons, what would you have wanted to see . Well, of course, thats an excellent point, that what were seeing, what i understand that the New York Times saw were overt records. These are things used in accounting and in filings with the irs. What this isnt is anything thats hidden or, you know, intended to remain off the books. And of course, thats the environment where most foreign intelligence services, certainly sfirve sophisticated ones, are going to try operate. So i wouldnt expect to see necessarily, without getting into any sort of investigative detail, i think it is reasonable to assume that many countries are well capable of placing money into trump or his sbess around him in a way that doesnt show up on the books, that isnt going to show up on filing with the irs. So the absence of that information doesnt surprise me, but that is very much something i would expect to see had that counterintelligence investigation taken place. You know, peter, i want to broaden the lens. We talk so much about russia, it was sort of the beating heart of the Mueller Probe and the early questions about his campaign, coincidentally or otherwise, five of them had done business in russia. But i want to ask you more broadly about all of the really outside the mainstream Foreign Policy views he takes. Whether its the slaughter of jamal khashoggi, a journalist who lived and worked in virginia, donald trump didnt just defend mbs, he toed the crowned princes line. Turkey is something weve been talking about. John bolton writes in his book that he was so concerned u. S. Foreign policy visavis toik, he called ag barr, same with china. Do you think this is a president just out there chucking and jiving and lookinging for side hustles . I do. I think largely, many of these decisions are driven by personal business interests. And the most important thing is, theyre being driven in a way thats hidden. And because theyre hidden from the American People, that is precisely what gives these foreign nations leverage over them. So again, that New York Times data, it talks not just about russia, it talks about turkey, about the philippines it talks about a azerbaijan and dubai. And the concerning thing is until yesterday, none of those transactions were known. So each and every one of those hidden transactions, those hidden payments provide a leverage point for the foreign nations to use over the president and really go a long way to explaining, as you said, some of these just absolutely nonsensical decisions that dont have any benefit to u. S. National security. I want to make sure i didnt miss this. So you think it is a plausible, or at least, worthy of further examination, to try to connect otherwise inexplicable Foreign Policy moves that do nothing to advance american Foreign Policy with his business interests, to try to lay those over and understand if there are side deals or other negotiations between the trump businesses and those countries . Thats exactly right. And thats the goal of counterintelligence. What the fbi and other u. S. Intelligence Community Agencies are trying to do from a counterintelligence perspective is understand why foreign nations and how those foreign nations are doing what theyre doing and what theyre trying to achieve. So we can clearly lay out why its in turkey or egypt or saudi arabias or any number of countries to get actions, policy actions, by this administration. And when we see trump in particular doing those things, again, as you said, from a perspective that makes no sense for u. S. National security, the counterintelligence question becomes why is he doing that . And now we know that certainly there are any number of financial direct pressure points that could be used to be causing that. And thats why you do counterintelligence. Thats why you seek to understand these hidden connections to look at and see where those pressure points and why decisions are being made the way they are in a matter that otherwise make no sense from the standpoint of the u. S. Interests. You know, frank figliuzzi, i have a combination of waves of shock and lightbulbs going off. Its such a simple explanation, but i think until we had this tax return data, it wasnt something that could be pinned down. Tell me if you agree that behind every bizarre Foreign Policy utterance and action that does nothing to advance this countrys Foreign Policy, its worthwhile of looking to see if theres an intersection with trumps business interests . And tell me how concerned you are that that could be the case and that there could really be some compromising and compromised positions that the president has taken because of his debt. Well, look, pete has previously mentioned that the finances around trump seem to be and are likely the most prevalent driving factor in any compromise. You and i, nicole, have talked about the fact that the president has no shame, so therefore videos of him engaging in inappropriate behavior would not bother him in the least. So its likely finances, if theres a compromise. And look, there are gaps here that we dont know the answer to. When someone is in this much debt, yet Deutsche Bank hands him loans for that no other bank would give a guy, that has this kind of debt, we need answers to that. And this is a painful reminder that those answers have not even been pursued by the u. S. Government and intelligence community. And im going to go a step further here. The counterintelligence concern will not go away if this president doesnt get reelected. Heres what i mean. Ask any corporate Security Director about the trade secrets in his company. Ask him the threat posed by retirees and people who resign from office, that engineer, that scientist who has the secret formula. Now imagine what a president who needs cash, imagine what he could do to us with the foreign intelligence service, talking about how our Nuclear System works, talking about what launch codes look like, talking about where a president goes, where that bunker is, all of the various things that a president is privy too. It doesnt go away when he goes away. And so i would assert that we need these answers and we need the investigation to get opened and continue, even if he doesnt get reelected. I guess i want to end on that. So pete, do you think that counterintelligence investigation, if there isnt one underway now, should be opened into fthe president , his finances . Absolutely. Franks absolutely right. This is something that doesnt go away whether or not he is reelected. It is something we need to know not just what happened in the past, but to protect ourselves going forward, we absolutely have to get to the bottom of understanding what his vulnerabilities are and what exists as were talking right now. Peter strzok and frank figliuzzi, both of you guaranteeing i will not sleep tonight. Thank you, though, for your incredibly special and unique expertise. Its a pleasure to get to talk to both of you on a day like this about a story like this. After the break, awardwinning actor jeff daniels joins me to discuss his new mini series, the comey rule, which takes a closer look at the turbulent relationship between donald trump and former fbi director, jim comey. Donald trump and former fbi director, jim comey. Its true, mr. President , you can fire the fbi director at any time for any reason or for no reason at all, because i want to stay because i love the bureau and i love my job and i believe im doing it well. One thing i never had to think about in Trump Organization, because i did so much myself is people think, oh, you were so big, but truth is, i did everything. And i have to rely on people, i have all of these idiot advisers around who think they got me elected. You know who i actually listen to . Tv people. Because ive got to get ratings, every day. White house adviser can guess wrong, still keep his job. Not the tv guys. A lot of smart people in that business. Well, you can rely on me, sir, to tell you i need loyalty. That was a clip from the fantastic new showtime twopart mini series the comey rule. Its based on former fbi director jim comeys 2018 memoir, a higher loyalty. The series follows comey through two consequential investigations taken by the fbi around and during the fbi legislation. The investigation into Hillary Clintons emails and a muchmore secret investigation into Donald Trumps campaign and their ties to russia. That part we just played for you was a seminole moment in comeys account, the president asking him for personal loyalty, ignoring the rule of law, and the mission of the fbi to be apolitical. Its a moment that pains jim comey to this day, that happened to be the scene they were filming when the former fbi director visited the set and he described it as, quote, eerily accurate and said he felt slightly ill watching it. Joining our conversation is someone who should never make anyone feel ill, our friend, awardwinning actor, jeff daniels. He stars in the new mini series, the comey rule, as jim comey, of course, airing now on showtime. So i watched this. I was so captivated by your performance. It is so smart, it is so subtle, it is so faithful to the facts. Youre getting those are the reviews coming in from a lot of the players. I just had one of them on, pete strzok. But i wonder what it is like. I got to meet you when you were on broadway in to kill a mockingbird. No one who lived those exact events could watch it and text you or call you. What is it like to play people who are still very much in the arena . Well, you you certainly acknowledge it and then you bail on it, because you have to treat it like any other job. And it helped me that as atticus finch, i was going up against the ghost of gregory peck, which is as real if not worse than comey. So then to go right from that into the comey rule, i knew eventually i would meet him. I didnt meet him beforehand. I had the book, i had the audio book of jim reading it, i had youtube, even on the kolbert show, you got to see his sense of humor. So i had plenty going in. Emailed him in the end of mockingbird, i said, im in new york, you know where to find me. He said, thanks, but he didnt come up. And i didnt want to impose. I didnt want to go down to his house. But then you got a job to do. And at the end of the day, youre not doing it for him, youre doing it for people who want to know what he was thinking. And its a bonus if he likes it. But, you know, its not like were going to reshoot it if he doesnt. So you try to do a real authentic portrayal and certainly i had the book to go from. Well, look, it is it is a production and it is art, but it also has a purpose. And i know billy ray and the producer and writer and you felt strongly that it come out before the election. Explain that . That was the deal. That was what we were pitched and why we all jumped onboard. We want to be part of the conversation. We know one part of the story and thats trump. Well, comeys a liar. And theres another side. And this is that. And certainly before an election, you might want to hear that other side to be more informed than perhaps all of us were in october of 2016. So it was important to billy, it was important to me that that be that it come out before the election and when it wasnt going to be coming out before the election, that, you know, that was unacceptable. What is it eabout the comey story that is so important to the trump story . Because i feel that the comey story is so central to the trump story. To me, its where trump most blatantly asks the fbi to serve him and not the country. The countrys preeminent Law Enforcement agency is supposed to catch bad guys, protect the homeland from terrorists, from mass shootings, from threats. Donald trump, what, 40 days in, 30 days in, asks jim comey to turn it in a totally different direction, so it serves basically as trumps secret police. Drop political investigations into mike flynn, protect him, be loyal to him . How does that story being told . I mean, what to you is so important about that story being told here in the final 35 days before an election . One of the things that struck me and the contrast between how jim comey and donald trump. You have honesty, decency, and a respect for the rule of law on one side and you have the opposite of that on the other. And were so politically polarized. We dont know whats true anymore. What giuliani told us, truth isnt truth. Were all confused, especially out in the midwest where were going, whos telling the truth . And its nice to see, and i think the show reminds us of, heres an honest, decent guy. You may not like what he did, but you need to know more about why he did it before you start, you know, vilifying him again. There were reasons. There was rock and a hard place and he was trying to hang on to the sacredness of the rule of law, of the institutions that make america what it is, to right, to truth, to facts, to justice. Those are all things that theyre bigger than jim comey. And he reveres them. And people think of him as a selfrighteous or a boy scout. You know, thats a guy who believes in those things and will make decisions based on those things. And nowhere in there is how the political left feels about it or how the political right feels about it. And i i think we need to be reminded of that going into this election, because i think on the ballot, forget left right, on the ballot, do you believe in honesty or dishonesty . Do you believe in decency or indecency . Do you believe in telling the truth or lying . Vote. And the comey rule is an example of one side and the other. And the New York Times yesterday, come on. I want to ask you about all of the news of the day, because i know youre steeped in it. And you, like me, come in constant frequent contact with people on the other side of the trump question, so i want to ask you, we talked last time about whats breaking through and in the time of a Global Pandemic and the economic crisis created by this countrys uniquely terrible response to it, i just want to ask you what it looks like there. Could i ask you to stick with us through a break and talk to you more on the other side . You bet. All right. Jeff daniels is staying with us. Up next, donald trump facing new scrutiny as joe biden pulls ahead. Well have more with jeff daniels on the other side. L hav daniels on the other side. My father always reminded me, a good education takes you many different horizons and that sticked to my mind. So, when 1 a day came out, i said, why not . Why not just utilize that resource. And walmart made that path open for me. Without the 1 a day program, i definitely dont think id be in school right now. Each week for me in school is just an accomplishment. I feel proud every step of the way. Am i overreacting, no. No, this is how a mob boss talks. A. A few take aways. The independents of the fbi doesnt mean anything to him. He sees everything in terms of personal loyalty. He thinks you have a problem with him. I told him you dont. Boss, you have to be very careful here. Memorialize any more conversations you have with them. This cant happen again. It is completely inappropriate. Mr. President , am i suppose ed to refuse his call. Were back with actor jeff daniels, who played jim comey there in the new mini series, the comby role. That was you talking to andy mccabe and some of other comeys other deputies. The degree to which the conversations between principals and staffers is remarkable. I want to ask you another question about the mini series. Do you think theres an explanation known to all of us yet for all of the lies about russia . Its not known to us yet, no. No. Its not known to us yet. But if it were stripped, they would take it back because the bad guys too obvious. Look thats certainly i mean, its just a badly written bad guy. Its so transparent. The fact that i believe it was the New York Times today wrote an article about putin to maybe call a truce to the cyber space thing with america. Thats putin getting into the lifeboat on the titanic. Okay . Yeah. Yeah. What are they talking about in hello sisinki. Theres all of that. The tax returns they dont show us. Its so obvious and where did he get all the money . All roads as Speaker Pelosi said, all roads lead to putin. Times are running out. This is a bad movie were living through. If it werent so life and death, its a bad movie. How does it feel in michigan for trump . Hes behind joe biden by eight points, losing support among some of the strongest groups that backed him in the state of michigan four years ago. White men. How does it feel and what do you attribute his decline there four years later to . The Republican Party has always been strong in the midwest and in michigan. I mean, we voted to the left i think since the reagan then trump is the first time we didnt. But i have a lot of friends who have voted republican their whole lives and its tough for them because and ive told a couple of them, i said the Republican Party that you belong to, that my dad belonged to, doesnt exist anymore. What Stewart Stevens writes about and its a lie. Jim comey lived that. Family values. Truth. Being honest. Going to church. All that stuff. My dad worshipped, i mean, that was what he was. But he always voted republican, but those guys are lost. They dont have a party. I was talking to a historian in the spring of 2016 and this historian, prominent historian, told me its the end of the Republican Party. If they elected donald trump b, its the end of the Republican Party. He got elected. And i think now theyre just destroying themselves and biden sitting back, kamala sitting back going let them blow themselves up. They seem to be doing it all on their own. It is just, the its sad. Because friends of mine now have to look at joe biden as their answer and its like well, you know, you could do a lot worse. You know . And its, i also think that time this is, gloomy, and november 3rd is an opportunity. This is a chance to write the first chapter of a new america. Youve got it in the candidates in biden and kamala. Youve got it in the outreach of the black lives matter. Youve got it in the one of the most important events that happened in the last four years was the womans march the day after his inauguration. Remember the pictures of that. Better be outraged now. Take all that outrage, all of us and get the vote out. Make sure that this nightmare that is trump and all the people, the sycophants and enablers and those who are complicit all go down with him because this is an opportunity to turn it around and i know the courts are stacked, but still. This is an opportunity. But people have to get involved. Jeff daniels, you are one of our favorite guests. You are always welcome to come back, whether you have a show time mini series out or not. Thank you so much for spending some time with us and everyone should watch both parts of the twopart series, the comey rule. I think theyre both up as of tonight. Exceptional. If you can stand to go back in time and relive these events, it is one of the best detpictions f what they were like. So say the people who were in the room. The next hour of deadline white house starts after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Fter a quick break. Dont go anywhere. s term and the primary process has started well wait to the next election. I want you to use my words against me. Youre on the record. Yeah, hold the tape. Lindsey must go and the Lincoln Project are responsible for the content of this ad. Now, theres skyrizi. I have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. 3 out of 4 people achieved. 90 clearer skin at 4 months. After just 2 doses. Skyrizi may increase your risk of infections. And lower your ability to fight them. Before treatment your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection. Or symptoms such as fevers,. Sweats, chills, muscle aches or coughs. Or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. I feel free to bare my skin. Visit skyrizi. Com. I got it all from you im always pushing through i know well make it to the finish line i know youre waiting on the other side im like you ondemand glucose monitoring. Because theyre always on. Another lifechanging technology from abbott. So you dont wait for life. You live it. Its fake news. Totally fake news. Made up. Fake. We went through the same stories. You could have asked me the same stories four years ago. Actually, i paid tax. And youll see that as soon as my tax returns, its under order. Theyve been under order for a long time. The irs does not treat me well. Hi, again, everybody. Its 5 00 in the east. If it sounds like the New York Times bombshell exclusive on Donald Trumps tax returns is under Donald Trumps skin, that might be because of headlines like this one. The fake billionaire plastered across the right leaning drudge report highlighting the damaging portrayal from the New York Times of the president s finances. His success in business, which was his chief sales pitch to his base in 2016, described today as more performance than reality. From that reporting, quote, together with related financial documents and legal filings, the records offer the most detailed look yet inside the president s business empire. They reveal the hollowness, but also the wizardry behind the selfmade billionaire image. Ultimately, mr. Trump has been more successful playing a business mogul than being one in real life. This massive spes investigation draws on more than two decades of tax return data. That a himself has gone to Great Lengths to conceal from state and federal investigators as well as congress, it exposes donald trump as a financial loser. To borrow a favorite expression of his. Quote, most of mr. Trumps Core Enterprises from his constellation of golf courses to his conservative magnet hotel in washington report losing millions, if not tens of millions of dollars year after year. And within the next four years, more than 300 million in loans obligations for which he is personally responsible, will come due. But the revelation that his landed with perhaps the loudest thud inside Donald Trumps Campaign Just 36 days out from the closing of the polls is this. Quote, donald j. Trump paid 750 in federal income taxes the year he won the presidency. In his first year in the white house, he paid another 750. He had paid no federal income taxes at all in ten of the previous 15 years. Largely because he reported losing much more money than he made. We should note that nbc news has not independently reviewed the documents that form the basis of the New York Times investigation. And the New York Times points out that trump has paid other kinds of federal taxes, like medicare and social security, but the fact that the selfdescribed billionaire mogul president paid zero to 750 in income tax in the most recent years, far less than the bills paid by most average americans, most struggle ling to make ends meet, has already become a central argument of a new video just out from the Biden Campaign showing teachers, firefighters and nurses, some of the front line workers in the pandemic, also bearing the brunt of his failed response to covid. All pay more income tax than donald trump. That is where we start this hour. Some of our favorite reporters and friends. Former rnc chairman and Senior Adviser to the Lincoln Project, Michael Steele is here. Also, eddie gloud and New York Times reporter, nick. Lucky for us. Eddie and nick are msnbc contributors. Nick, first, congratulations to your colleagues and to your paper for this stunning piece of reporting that goes a long way toward filling in some of the questions, not all of them, on Donald Trumps financial picture. Take me through any of the highlights either that i glossed over or that you think deserve conte context . Well, look, for the big picture, i think the big take away from this stunning piece of reporting by colleagues of mine is that President Trump was not a good investor in real estate. He was very good at selling himself as a good investor of real estate, but he was bad at the actual part involve iing th real estate investing. He lost so much money investing in real estate that he was able to use those losses to off set income in the thing he was actually good at, which is playing a mogul on tv. Which is how he got back to paying zero in taxes those years and 750 in some years. Its a great piece of reporting and of course if your hair stylist cost a lot of money, nicole, you can probably extend for him. I dont think it would count as any surprise that mine doesnt and i dont, but i will leave it at that. Michael steele, i just want to come to you on the lies. I mean, as tim obrien said in the last hour, hes plenty rich enough. Why the scam . Why the charade . The lies about all of the losses . I dont think wed have a couch long enough for us to lie down on. Not him, but us. You know, thats the truth of it. You know, who understands and knows the psychology here . This is a level of dysfunction and, and sort of you know, egomaniacal games playing that none of us would ever expect to see in a president of the United States. Look. This is the ponzi scheme thats gotten exposed. Robbing peter to pay paul. Not paying paul at all. This is you know, this has been a lifetime for trump of a shell game. And trying to figure out how to avoid to do the very thing that the rest of us do every two weeks. When we get that paycheck and we see uncle sam has gotten his fair share. In some cases, more than his fair share. And yet, trump has avoided that and thats the part that sticks and i think will rub the rawest here. I think the Biden Campaign ad is brilliant. Dont have to say anything. Just show you the numbers. Teachers, 7,000. You know, nurses, you know, 12,000. In taxes. These are people real people in the middle of dealing with covid19 and theyre still paying their taxes. So this is a tough message for trump right now. And it will be interesting to see how he dances on that pinhead tomorrow night when hes asked about it and im sure well hear 1,000 times hes under aud iit. Only paid 750 in taxes and that has nothing to do with your audit. They talked about the coach. So lets go there. I mean, we look at this repo reporting that after forbes valued trumps holdings at just 200 million, donald trump called in as a fake persona, persona named john barren. Called Jonathan Green burg to make the case that donald trump was donald trump under the pseudo name was much richer. Im told by people that know from there are three things he cares about and sadly for the country, the democracy he leads, they have nothing to do with the rule of law or americas National Security. There are questions about the size of his wealth. Questions about his virility, his sexual prowess and his intelligence. What do you make of whats going on at the white house in the Trump Campaign right now . Well, first of all, those three elements, nicole, suggest a profound narcissist. We can just say that. Up front. Although im not clinically qualified to make that judgment, but it seems that way. Lets be clear. Donald trump said in the art of the deal that he deals in effect with peoples fantasies. That he knows that people want the spectacular, right . He says he engages in truthful hyperbole. I dont know how true that adjective actually is. But he knows hes playing on the field of peoples fantasies. And now that thats been pierced and people see him for what he is, i think what the white house and the campaign is trying to, and the Trump Campaign is trying to grapple with is what do we place instead . What do we do in response to the piercing of the illusion . Check this out, nicole. When you find out that wwe wrestling is fake, do you stop watching it . I dont think so. I think this is the key. Right . That donald trump has been engaged in, in perpetuating this lie. People know, i mean mark cuban tried to call him to the table. Bloomberg, warren buffett, lets put our taxes. Folk know or knew that he was just bluster and now that we have the evidence, i dont know how much that will change people from watching the game. If that makes sense, nicole. You know, i want to read more from the reporting to you, nick. This is about what could become his next legal battle. And possible criminal exposure if theres fraud alleged. The times reports mr. Trump has written off his business expenses, co. S coses including fuel and meals associated with his aircraft. Used to shuttle him among his various homes and properties. Likewise, the cost of haircuts including more than 70,000 paid to style his hair during the apprentice. Together, nine trurp entities have written off at least 95,000 paid to favorite hair and Makeup Artist of ivanka trump. You mentioned this before. The piece of this that to foe low up on eddies point, the trumps are nothing like any of the people that they want to vote for them. And olivia troy, shes the third former Homeland Security official to come out in the miles taylor, elizabeth newman, she described donald trump as finding a Silver Lining in the pandemic to be that he didnt have to touch his supporters anymore because he was disgusted by them. This is just another data point that puts him farther away from his voters and the lives they lead, nick. Well, look, its hard to assess 24 hours in the publication of this story the impact it will have on the race, how it will change the perception of the voters, but i think the power of the story for me as a reader and journalist is in the details. The small amount of taxes paid, these tax write offs for his haircuts and hair styling. What that means is that people like you and me are paying for his hair stylists. Thats what that means essentially. And i think these details are relatable. Its too soon to see if it changes the perception of voters who are important, but it certainly casts a really important light on how he has functioned as a Business Leader and investor for anyone who cares about that. And it remains to be scene how big of a deal joe biden might make of this or whether he ignores it tomorrow night, but senator harris spoke to Lawrence Odonnell while ago and heres what she had to say about it. As you know from your work in the Senate Intelligence committee, debt, personal debt, is a very significant issue when considering security clearances. What is your reaction to that debt that the president has . Well, i mean, lawrence, this is why the American People deserve to have a full accounting of the financial interests including the indebtness of the president of the United States and i do share in that concern. Who does he owe the money to . Tell us. Who do you owe the money to . And do you owe debt to any foreign nation . Do you owe, do you owe debt, do you owe money, somebody money, do you owe anybody money who is impacted by any decision you make as president of the United States . We need to know that. The American People have a right to know that when the president of the United States acts, he acts with their priorities in mind, not with his priorities in mind and weve already known that he puts his political priorities in front of the American People. But we are now seeing in a way that is evident, clearly evident, that he also is prepared to put his personal interests ahead of the American People by not disclosing who he owes money to and apparently, he owes a lot of money. Maybe to a lot of people and we should know. So, Michael Steele, thats a run at 10 00, but she makes the same points that were made much more sharply by peter strzok and frank, two former deputy fbi directors in the counterintelligence arena, who say that if there isnt already, there should absolutely be a counterintelligence investigation to answer the question Kamala Harris just laid out. To whom does he owe money and whomever that is, what leverage are they exerting over him . And if you look at his puzzling Foreign Policy interactions from toting the mbs, is crown prince of saudi arabias line on the slaughter and dismembering of the journalist living and wo working in virginia. You look at the inse sant defense of russia. You look at the policies when it came to turkey, who we know from these returns gave him a million bucks that repelled his own secretary of defense. His own National Security adviser. It certainly seems that just from where you and i sit, there are plenty of little crumbs that would seem worthy of investigation. Absolutely. Ive said for a number of years now, that the sweet ticklish spot in this trump orbit is the foreign entanglements. Kamala has it exactly right in term s of the inquiry there because the reality of it is his son has told us. How do you think we built our golf courses . The russians gave us the money. You know. So, thats, thats don jr. Telling us that. That wasnt an investigation. He just volunteered there. Oyeah, i think there is reason now in light of this reporting and more reporting as i understand from reading that times article to come. That there is incumbent upon the congress to raise the stakes here. Because our National Security is at risk. The interest of the United States are in play. And if there is a financial interest that the president deems greater, a personal financial interest he deems greater than our interest as a nation and our interest as citizens, yeah. I think id want to know about that. You know, and just to close the loop on this, part of what it raises, theres detail after detail about what may end up looking really shady and really the way a rich person and a rich real estate person manipulates the tax code. The other side of it is the slashing yellow that i said pete and frank talked about. Senator harris talked about. That is the National Security line of question iing and youv got dan coates telling bob woodward, it was clear putin had something on him. Youve got john bolton calling attorney general barr about the president s conduct with turkey, about china. I mean, do you think its plausible that when the truth emerges and we know it will eventually, that there were all sorts of things for sale . Yes, absolutely. I mean, 421 million personally guaranteed loans . I think thats what, thats the figure, right . And how that could be leveraged. I mean, its very clear. I watched the segment, the earlier segment with peter strzok and it was clear that not only does it present a National Security threat now, it presents a National Security threat moving forward, right . And you combine that with the reality of cheats, with regards to the tax code stuff that i dont understand but we see theres a different set of rules for people like donald trump. You see it in the i mean, he stiffed people for 287 million that he didnt pay back since 2010 . It goes beyond just simply being a drifter. Hes a crook. I think its clear. Not only is he a crook, hes a crook that presents a threat to our National Security as a country and we need to recognize it for what it is. Nick, sorry, want to give you a quick last word. Im no financial wizard, but looks like theres a possibility he could bankrupt if this audit goes against him. Do you have any preview of what the subsequent times report iin has or any thoughts on the financial picture the president will be in total . Well, stay tuned on the future reporting participant, but you can look up a story and see that this is a man who owes a lot of money. Now, his debtors are stated thest not a huge mystery if you believe those, but the question is what might a president who is deeply in debt do with the levers of government and power to clear his debts, avoid them. Secure against them for the future. Those are all fair questions to ask. It goes to questions of Foreign Policy. It goes to questions of banking regular lace. Of how attuned he is to the money coming into thiz Properties Like the Washington Hotel and doral and special interests. All those are important considerations as to how a president who is deeply in debt might behave. Unbelievable piece of repo reporting, again. Congratulations to you and your colleagues. Were grateful to have it. Michael and eddie are staying put. When we return, the times bombshell comes as new polls clear that donald trump is losing. Both in the battleground states and nationwide. Well have the latest numbers for you next. Plus, the republicans latest maniacal plan to steal the 2020 election and what democrats are doing to prepare for that and joe biden will hammer trump over his mishandling of the coronavirus pandemic at tomorrow nights debate. And with cases on the rise, there are new fears from the director of the cdc that trump is being spoon fed bad medicine about the virus by his new covid adviser. The white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Ter a quick break. Dont agonywhere. 20 years ago, i was an hourly associate cart pusher. The different positions ive had taught me how to be there for others. I started out as a cashier. I mean, the skys the limit with walmart. Its all up to you. Young woman yeah, thanks mom mother of course and thank you guys for these gorgeous flowers, so thoughtful. Young woman whispering hey, did you bring the. The condoms . Young man whispering whats up . Young woman whispering condoms young man whispering cond. Condor . Young woman whispering condor. Why would i say condor . Condoms condoms. Father condoms charlie. She wants to know if you brought any condoms. Young man yeah i brought some. Announcer eargo, a virtually invisible hearing loss solution with high quality sound and lifetime support. Were here and ready to help you with your hearing loss, with free remote hearing checks and consultations by our licensed hearing professionals. All from the comfort of your home and if youre an active or retired federal employee you can now get eargo at no cost to you. Call or go online today. So youre a small bor a big one. You were thriving, but then. Oh. Ah. Okay. Plan, pivot. How do you bounce back . You dont, you bounce forward, with serious and reliable internet. Powered by the largest gig Speed Network in america. But is it secure . Sure its secure. And even if the power goes down, your connection doesnt. So how do i do this . You dont do this. We do this, together. Bounce forward, with comcast business. The debates coming up. Everyones going to be watching. How are you preparing specifically . I think i prepare every day. When youre president , you sort of see everything that theyre going to be asking. It is going to be difficult. I know, my guess is its going to be straight attack. Mostly personal. Thats the only thing he knows how to do. He doesnt know how to debate the facts because hes not that smart. The first of three planned president ial debates is tomorrow night on cleveland. Theyre not short on topics to discuss, not to mention who knows what to expect from donald trump considering his latest round of polling. He is losing in maine. Losing in wisconsin. Losing in michigan and donald trump is losing minnesota. He and joe biden are statistically tied in georgia and north carolina, while trump leads in south carolina. But no matter how much loose cannon trump decided to be, theres almost certainly going to be a question on the topic weve been discussing today. Heres how he addressed it in 2016. He showed he didnt pay any federal income tax. That makes me smart. Joining our conversation is editor at a large, the 19th and msnbc contributor, aaron haines, eddie and Michael Steele are still here. Erin, what do you think of this issue . Do you think the tax returns will be something that joe biden will inject or i have noticed a very messaged discipline joe biden on the stump. Focused on the pandemic. Focused on the economy. How do you see him using this bombshell reporting tomorrow night . Well, i mean, i think that Chris Wallace has to address this as moderator and maybe it will go into the category, the topic of trumps record, right . But i mean i think that this has to be something they unpack in this debate and unpack early because frankly, amidst the pandemic with Everything Else that the American People are kind of juggling at home, i dont know if they have the bandwidth to hold 90 minutes of this conversation, but certainly at the top of this, this would be something they would want to tune into and appreciate with some help understanding although its not like russia on the ukraine. This is literally a Kitchen Table kind of issue that millions of people in this country who pay taxes understand you know, very clearly at least at the very top surface level. You know, people have asked me on and off tv, how does joe biden prepare for this debate . I never know what to say because donald trump is the guy who brought three of bill clintons alleged extramarital relationships, women to the last debate. I mean, what do you say . How does joe biden prepare to go into a series of three debates with donald trump, whofrankly i think losing by more this time than he was four years ago. Yeah. Well, i mean i think this first debate is going to be a test of that. I think that this is probably like you were saying, he has been somebody thats been pretty disciplined and stayed on message in trying cast donald trump as inadequately responding to the pandemic and i think that for both of these candidates, youre going to e see them bringing what theyve been doing on the campaign trail to the debate stage for folks who have not been following the ins and outs of what theyve been saying during this general election campaign. So i think that he will continue to talk about the president and his handling of the pandemic. The president and his mishandling of the issue of systemic racism in this country and you know, the implications of the president S Supreme Court nominee and the fact that you know, theyre trying to rush this through with five weeks left to go until election day and with millions of americans already casting ballots across the country and so i think sticking to that and not attempting to fact check President Trump in real time because if he did that, he would probably be doing that for the entirety of the time that they have on stage so not really doing that, but sticking to his message and really making sure that he is persuading voters in the home stretch is probably the strategy that joe biden is focused on. You know, Michael Steele, i have a twopart question for you. Donald trump, when confronted with someone rooted in facts, whether it was Jonathan Swan of axios or Chris Wallace of fox news, has been a miserable failure and i wonder what sort of version of trump you expect to see. Heres a little preview of how trumps thinking about the debate. He tweeted on saturday, i will be strongly demanding a drug test of Sleepy Joe Biden after the debate on tuesday night. Nachl rally, ill agree to take one, also. His debate performances have been record setting uneven to put it mildly. Only drugs could have caused this discrepancy three question marks. Donald trump went at it a little bit. This was bidens response. Pretty good. Vice President Biden intended to deliver his answers in words. If the president thinks his best case is made in urine, he can have at it. We expect nothing less from donald trump so, here we are. Thats a little bit biting. Yeah. I mean, come on. I thought it was a good response. It was an excellent response. Trumps asking you to pee in a cup. No, perfect. I mean, that came from joe, so, well see what joe has to say on the stage. But heres the truth of it and i think we all kind of realized where we are at this point. Donald trump, to the extent that he can make this a you know what show, and it starts with s, he will. He will stand on that stage and he will, the challenge he will have in someone like Chris Wallace is not going to play that game. Hes going to hold his feet as much he can to the fire and then joe has that other obligation as wem. Wu as you know, trumps tweet is really you know, here, heres a bright shining object for everybody to get on. That says nothing, means nothing, is probably a form of projection. And to the extent that you know, hes going to you know, take a drug test, too, yeah. At the same time you release your tax returns. We get it. We know. Weve been here. We get it. You know . And at some point, the American People just stop taking anything he says seriously. I thought though that eddie made a good point that should not be overlooked because out of all of this madness, theres a methodology. Thats the wwe concept. That at the end of the the day, and ive already had some conversations since this tax story broke, people said yeah, but it shows that you know, he was really smart. He figured out how to use the system and im just like okay, bro, whatever. You try that. And let me know how much luck you have, okay . You try not to pay your debts and avoid paying uncle sam and see how well you do. There is still this element of voters out, this level of support out there, that it didnt matter and thats what youre going to see trump play to tonight more than anything else. Is to see how much everyone is against me. How much theyre coming after me. How much the system is trying to tear me down. That tax story is a hoax. Its not true. You know. And so, thats something to keep an eye on to see how the needles move on that. You put up the states and where hes leading, where trump is leading, where joe is leading. I still, nicole, not convinced 35 days out that all the numbers were seeing are real. There are a lot more trump loyalists, ak lights out there than i think a lot of folks really want to acknowledge. You know who they are. You probably go to bed with one at night. Probably will have sunday din eer with one this week. So, thats the reality of it. Right now. Michael, you always expand my horizons and way of looking at everything. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. Eddies name has been invoked. Errin is also sticking around. Our special coverage of the first president ial debate starts tomorrow night at 8 00 eastern. Ill be there with joy and rachel and brian and we will be joined by a special guest, she is the last person to have debated donald trump head to head. The only person, actually, to have ever done that. Former secretary of state, Hillary Rodham clinton joins us at 8 00 p. M. Tomorrow. When we return, House Speaker nancy pelosi, is warning democrats to be on guard for the newest republican plan to steal the 2020 election. That story deadline white house continues. Election. That story deadline white house continues. I got it all from you im always pushing through i know well make it to the finish line i know youre waiting on the other side im like you ondemand glucose monitoring. Because theyre always on. Another lifechanging technology from abbott. So you dont wait for life. You live it. I dont want to end up in the Supreme Court and i dont want to go back to congress either. Even though we have an advantage if we go back to congress. Does everyone understand that . So ive been working on this for a while, on every almost scheme he may have to steal the election. House speaker, nancy pelosi, has to be ready for anything, including the once in a century possibility that trump suggested there at a rally. House of representatives is called on to settle the president ial election. If neither trump or biden wins the Electoral College outright, the decision could be thrown to the newly elected house where each state delegation gets a single vote and while democrats do indeed control house, theyre outnumbered, at least right now, when it comes to state delegations. It adds another level of urgency for Speaker Pelosi, who would need to gain seats. Eddie and errin are still here. I talked about michael pushing out my brain in the way i think about these things. Donald Trump Forces Democrats and the Biden Campaign to do so every day with his different snare yoes for stealing the election. Right. Right. So, this quickly, in terms of the debate, hes desperate. Going to come out like a wild boxer. Its important for vice President Biden not to lose his calm to be dleliberate, methodical, keep tacking him and hell wind up trying to bite his ear off. But any way, but in terms of this, we need to understand this point. In relation to the three ds. And this is what im calling the three ds. Were dealing with the reality of death. Covid19. And how hes bungled that. Were dealing with the revelation of debt. And how hes leveraged. Both yields desperation. We need to understand and Speaker Pelosi speaking, you could hear the urgency in her tone, that this man is desperate. That the republicans are desperate and they are going to do everything within their power to hold on to power. Even if it means destroying democracy. Theyre going to take advantage of the democratic process in order to undermine it. We need to understand them for who they are and name them as such. You know, errin, maybe two years ago, it might have sounded like a farfetched you know break glass in case scenario, but what donald trump projects isnt too far from what eddie just outlined. Yeah and you see the president continuing at his rallies in press briefings, to raise uncertainty about the results of the election, which has why you hear joe biden continuing to say that this election needs to be a mandate, right, as opposed to won on the margins that could possibly be left open to question and so i think that that in addition to the Voter Protection efforts that the Biden Campaign is trying to use to push back against whatever tactics the president may and the campaign may employ between now and election day are part of what they see as the solution, but really trying run up the score even against what they know is going to be voter suppression, coupled with the challenges of casting a ballot in the pandemic are very real. It is uncertain again now effective a counterweight stories like this New York Times tax story even though we know that there are more coming, how much of a counterweight is that really going to be to 15 seasons of the apprentice and four years of this presidency for the people that support President Trump. You know, shes on to an interesting point, eddie. I think weve paid too much attention to the trump voter and not enough attention to the Trump Coalition. The Trump Coalition that led him to an electoral victory four years ago is not the same as the trump voter who cant be repelled by anything. If it were, he wouldnt be eight to ten points down in every national poll. Where do you think the true state of the race is, eddie . I dont know. You know, trump sits in the sweet spot of greed and selfishness and racism. Thats his comfort zone. So you have folks who are out there greedy, nicole, who were only concerned about their well being, who will vote for them. Theyre not the ones who are screaming ugly, nasty things. So its precisely that coalition. That leads me to, like Michael Steele and e errin, to be doubtful about the numbers we see and this is whats really important about the ground game. I know were in covid19. But its important that the Democratic Party and this machine that we get, we turn folk out. That folk turn out to vote at the largest, and i know people are probably going to go on twitter to say you were talking about turning out to vote . Yes, i am and i think this is really important because we dont know what that coalition will look like and how it will be activated. Greed and selfishness joins with racism. Thats where donald trump sits and thrives. Eddie, errin, spitting truth today. Thank you both so much for doing so. Were grateful to you. When we return, troubling signs that the coronavirus is coming back in some of the places that were hit the hardest and new concerns from the drirector of the cdc about the medical advice donald trump is getting from one of his advicers. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Tinues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. [ engines revving ] its amazing to see them in the wild like th shhh. For those who were born to ride, theres progressive. Keeping your oysters growing while keeping your business growing has you swamped. you need to hire i need indeed indeed you do. The moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a shortlist of quality candidates from a resume data base so you can start hiring right away. Claim your seventyfivedollar credit when you post your first job at indeed. Com promo wed be remiss to wonderf i every one of joe bidens attack lines on the debate stage tomorrow night shouldnt circle back to Donald Trumps negligent handling of the pandemic. More than 206,000 americans have now lost their lives to the coronavirus pandemic as trump pursued a strategy of playing it down in his own words. Now, rising infection rates in 26 states are raising fears of a essential National Wave this fall. Now this, another sign that science is not whats leading trumps response. Weve confirmed that Robert Redfield is voicing his alarm about the misleading data that scott atlas is arm aing donald trump with, telling a colleague over the phone, quote, everything he says is false. Joining our conversation is Health Policy expert and nbc news medical contributor, dr. Gupta. I dont know if its reassuring or depressing that the head of the cdc has to deal with the propagandas and conspiracy theorists inside the Coronavirus Task force, but i wonner what you think about this conversation that nbc is reporting on where dr. Redfield describes mr. Atlas as such. Good afternoon. Im sure hes just tired because dr. Atlas has been wrong at every turn. About a month of having to deal with him at the white house podium. Lets see what he said. He said children cannot transmit this disease. Covid19, as effectively as duts. Thats wrong. We now have data suggesting that children can easily transfer it as well if not better than adults. Thats number one. Number two, this myth that young adults cant end up in the icu and see me. Turns out if youre infected as a young adult in covid19, its the same risk of ending up in the icu. So again, misnation. Information. Talking about herd immunity, with no empathy. Now we have great evidence from our own cdc suggesting that these spikes in the 20 to 29yearold age bracket are proceeded by a surge in cases among those who are 60 to 69 years old. So you cant engage in herd immunity and think you can off the elderly without being at risk, which is why im sure hes seeing people turn on him. And we should point out in defense of mr. Redfield, the man hes talking about, mr. Atlas, said this about masks, theres no sound science, on vaccines, he contradicted tony fauci and director headfield and he is someone who has no experience, no background in infectious diseases. But thats that. I want to know what con vversatn about the pandemic in tomorrow nights debate best serves the voting public from you. Well i think what i hope what youll hear from former vice President Biden is a return to science and perhaps elevating individuals into potentially his future administration that will focus on the facts because americans want to hear them. If i may, nicole, can i share a few facts here because im g getting questions all the time. Please. From individuals craving guidance. Fantastic. So number one, you know, i show the n95 mask a lot here, but you dont hear from our surgeon general, what if you cant access an n95 mask because this is the best fitting, most protective mask against covid19. Well, it turns out thateres something called a three layer surgical mas a k. This is the kind of mask that the usps or Something Like it is going to be mass distributed to every household across the country. Five masks per every american household. The Trump Administration put a nix on that because this is deemed to be pretty darn effective. What we know doesnt work are bandanna masks or the neck goiter. Doesnt work. Theyre too thin. Thats one. Two, a big question i get is flu shots. When should you get one . The cdc has not bespecific been specific enough. They say the end of october. Takes about two weeks to work. Get it now. For parents wondering about halloween. Go for a skav gjere hunt at home. Carve pumpkins. Do a consume contest, but dont trick or treat, its too difficult. Going to have to sanitize every candy in and of itself and finally, the senate is debating theact. The heros act would provide home caregiver s the needed compensation and sick pay leave that they need. We dont talk about this enough. Our Health Care System from a human personnel system is the weakest its ever been. A lot of people have been furloughed and fired, and we need that more than ever. But i hope the senate will act on the heros about to get the right people back in place at work providing care for americans. Tony fauci has said we need to get our number of new infections down to 10,000 a day before fall. Were still far away from that. What are your concerns as the fall is upon us . Well, what im seeing is that 40,000 new case rates a day, deaths remaining at about 1,000. Heres my concern. With that type of burden, were entering colder climates. We know respiratory path agaoge like to transmit themselves. Im worried about those that come in with the flu or pneumonia and need a ventilator. My own institute for Health Metrics at the university of washington, they have modeled out, and modelling have pros and cons. But icu capability also be stretched yet again come january 1. So we need to be concerned and focus on policies that can help save american lives. Its such a good point. We havent been here in a winter season yet. Dr. Gupta, thank you for talking us through all of this. Thank you for your facts. When we return, we will pay tribute to lives well lived. E t. Let me tell you something, i wouldnt be here if i thought reverse mortgages took advantage of any american senior, or worse, that it was some way to take your home. Learn how homeowners are strategically using a reverse Mortgage Loan to cover expenses, pay for healthcare, preserve your portfolio and so much more. A reverse Mortgage Loan isnt some kind of trick to take your home. Its a loan, like any other. Big difference is how you pay it back. Find out how reverse mortgages really work with aags free, noobligation reverse mortgage guide. With a reverse mortgage, you can pay whatever you can, when it works for you, or, you can wait, and pay it off in one lump sum when you leave your home. Discover the option thats best for you. Call today and find out more. Im proud to be a part of aag, i trust em, i think you can too. Okay, so, magnificent mile for me i thought i was managing my moderate to severe Crohns Disease. Until i realized. Something was missing. Me. You okay, sis . My symptoms kept me from being there for my sisters. So i talked to my doctor and learned humira is for people who still have symptoms of Crohns Disease after trying other medications. The majority of people on humira saw significant symptom relief in as little as 4 weeks. And many achieved remission that can last. Humira can lower your ability to fight infections. Serious and sometimes fatal infections, including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. Tell your doctor if youve been to areas where certain fungal infections are common and if youve had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flulike symptoms or sores. Dont start humira if you have an infection. Be there for you. And them. Ask your doctor about humira. With humira, remission is possible. If you cant afford your medicine, abbvie may be able to help. This smiling face mike look familiar to regular viewers. It belongs to 28yearold debbie banister. We shared her story with you about three weeks ago. You may remember, she was a generous soul with a gorgeous singing voice, who died after a fight with the coronavirus. Well, now well show you a new face. This is debbies mom, shirley. On the very same day her daughter passed away, shirley tested positive for the disease. And this past weekend, coronavirus took her, too. She was only 57 years old. Shirley, like her daughter, was described as an angel on earth. She was an Award Winning Department Chair for nursing at Midlands Technical College in columbia, south carolina. Her coworkers told the nbc station there that shirley somehow found more than 24 hours in one day, and that she used all of them to make the world a better place. So tragically, for a second time in the span of three weeks, were asking you to keep the banister family in your thoughts, particularly dennis banister who has lost a loving wife and a beautiful daughter in the same month. Well be right back. Month well be right back. Im a conservative, want conservative judges on the court. This may make you feel better, but i really dont care. If an opening comes in the last year of President Trumps term and the primary process has started well wait to the next election. I want you to use my words against me. Youre on the record. Yeah, hold the tape. Lindsey must go and the Lincoln Project are responsible for the content of this ad. Staying at home is more important than ever, especially if you have a chronic illness or just got out of the hospital. Kindred at home can come to you. With the help of our skilled, compassionate clinicians, you can learn to manage your illness or regain your strength in the privacy of home. We take every precaution to protect you so your home can be both a comfortable place and a safe place to get the care you need. Kindred at home. Go online or call the number on your screen. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. Were always grateful. Settle in now because the beat starts right now. Hi there. Hey, nicolle, thank you very much. Welcome to the beat, everyone. Im in for ari melber this hour. We have a big show with that New York Times bombshell on trumps taxes, opening new questions about possible fraud, tax evasion, bankruptcy, and a whole lot more. Dropping just ahead of the first president ial debate. Tonight, i have a special interview with someone who actually has tangled with trump on the debate stage. Also, former obama act solicitor general, the fight over the Supreme Court, and whole lot more. And a former Trump Organization executive on the uproar as his tax secrets are now exposed. And that is where we begin