Time. You fight until we can continue to achieve what is right and just for everyone of all backgrounds, all religions and all genders, and ways of life. Thats what the great people like Nelson Mandela stood for. We cant just choose to be good. We must aspire to try and be great. That does it for me. Thanks for watching. Ill see you back here tomorrow at 5 00 p. M. Eastern. Up next, the beat with my friend ari melber. Bob mueller revealing Michael Cohens crimes, as well as new details on his ties to russia with federal prosecutors in new york dropping the hammer and calling for substantial prison time. Lets get right to it, two major Court Filings out tonight, one from bob mueller who says that Michael Cohen has been helpful in his russia investigation and, from these prosecutors up in new
york who say cohen still deserves years in jail for a criminal mindset that allowed him to basically commit a host of crimes. All of this is a week before a judge will sentence cohen for all the above. Lets look at the latest in the mueller which i was just discussing with our own chuck todd, because bob mueller said hes not taking any position on how much time Michael Cohen should serve, but he does note that cohen first came into his office, to bob muellers investigators and lied to him, and lied specifically about money that we know cohen, trump and felix sater were trying to make in russia. Mueller said in the new filing that cohen has now taken steps to mitigate those lies and other crimes. He gave crucial information about the Trump Campaign in russia, this was after he started lying he started telling the truth, mueller said, and he told the truth about russian attempts to reach the Trump Campaign dating back to 2015,
also russiarelated matters core to his investigation. He knew about these things because of, quote, his contact with company executives, a reference to unnamed people in the Trump Organization, could be employees, could be family members. While mueller said cohen was helpful, the federal prosecutors in new york not impressed at all. It was a they sharashing. They say Michael Cohen only gave up at the end when he had few other choices. They hammer him. They note he was not actually a cooperating witness, he didnt do what he could have done. And he committed four distinct federal crimes. They say in their version of the case he was motivated by personal greed, he used his own power and influence for personal deception. And it was deception that permeated his entire professional life. They note where the law comes in, the Federal Guide Line would
call for someone to serve about 63 months in prison. While they say he should get a little bit of credit for what he did in cooperating, he shouldnt get much. They call for four years what they call a substantial term of imprisonment. All that and bob mueller filing another big document, this is for Paul Manafort, the former Campaign Chair and the, quote, crimes and lies that mueller said justified his plea deal. That document i can tell you has been filed under seal so at this hour we dont know whats inside it. What we do know its already a big day for bob mueller. I want to get to it with maya wiley, a civil prosecutor in the same Southern District of new york. John flannery, a former federal prosecutor, and nancy gerdner, a
former federal judge. Maya, what do you think is most important in what mueller is choosing to say and why your former colleagues in the Southern District are coming down so hard on Michael Cohen . I think you just said it, ari. Whats really relevant here is you have a one you have a document that makes very clear that there have been significant contact between those in trumps sphere and russia. We actually already knew that. What we see now is the reverse side of it. Meaning we have a long history between George Papadopoulos beginning with George Papadopoulos in march of 2016, who understood his job as connections to the russians. And in april and may communicating up the chain with the Trump Campaign about meeting with russia. But we also find out that trump
moscow tower deal was happening at the same time and back in november 2015, the russians were also directly reaching out to the trump world. So we already knew that there was lots of contact with russia, even before this document. What were seeing is that theres a lot more that we did not know about. That we also know that theres going to be a continued investigation into it. Thats quite clear, both from the Michael Flynn filing as well as from the fact there was a lot redacted in that and the fact that the manafort filing has been redacted. In terms of the Southern District its all quite clear. What theyre saying, quite frankly, is look, this guy didnt Do The Right Thing. And by the way, he was a lawyer. His obligation to Do The Right Thing was heightened. And he came in, he was not really he didnt formulate a cooperation agreement. He didnt agree to talk to us about things that may be crimes
that he was not already pleading guilty to, and that should bring us right back around to the Trump Organization investigation that theyre still conducting. Nancy, im thrilled we have the benefit of your expertise tonight because this is now going right into judge lane. How does a judge take these two very different recommendations . Mueller saying basically he lied but he helped, you figure it out. And the sdny saying this is a bad dude. He is a criminal, hes a liar, he thinks hes, quote, Above The Law and should get about four years. What does the judge do . The judge will have two alternatives. On the one hand, this is going to be driven by this is a train driven by the prosecution. Because its the mueller part that is the big question mark. Right, if it were just the sdny part, then, you know,
essentially cohen would get time and the question is how much. The mueller part is whats driving it. The fallacy of all that were talking about is that even if cohen were sentenced tomorrow to, you know, four years, three years, or whatever variation that is, hell continue to cooperate with the government. The government has the ability to file, as you know, whats called a rule 35 motion after the fact seeking a reduction in the sentence. So while this didnt happen in a very orderly fashion with him being a cooperating witness, the rule 35 will continue to hang over him and will lead to an adjustment. Do you think a judge would give him years . You know, i mean, ive been speculating all day. I think a judge will give him years in the face of the in the face of the sdny recommendation. I dont think a judge would give him four years. Hes before a very tough judge, actually. Judge pauly is not someone whos been lenient on white collar
offenses and if you looked only at the four corners of the sdny stuff you would say because of the amount of money involved this guy would get some years, but i say thats speculating because what will happen is the court can impose a sentence and basically stay is sentence, he continues to cooperate with mueller and there can be a subsequent adjustment. Sure. But this is real stuff. This is not George Papadopoulos time. This is the contemplation of real time, real felonies absolutely. Were going to cover this in a couple ways throughout our show tonight, john. But it is not normal, an everyday event to have federal prosecutors go into court and say, we proved this Campaign Crime right. This person admitted to it, and it was done at the direction of the sitting president of the united states. Your view of that piece of this tonight . Thats significant. I mean, theres almost nothing comparable since watergate with
this. And to have a lawyer coming forward, also follows that parall parallel. The thing thats interesting here, is you have a good guy, Bad Guy Presentation by the Special Counsel versus the Southern District. And the Southern District gave tough language, like sometimes happens in a labor decision, but then the result of five years, looking at his exposure and what he did, and it could be much more substantial than that. And i agree they could come back and revisit it. They dont want to reward somebody who cab ined off what he was prepared to do there. On the other hand we have the statement by the Special Counsel basically praising the cooperation despite his lies, despite who he is. How do we justify that as a Justice System . They group together. This is the lawyer sounds like you dont know. I thought you had an answer, john, then you said birds of a feather. How do we . I think of birds of a feather. Not eagles perhaps, but birds of a feather. Thats my answer in this case. If you look at his history of lawyers, mr. Trump, we go from roy cohn, to mr. Cohen and we dont have as good a lawyer as roy to do as good of the evil things he did in the past i would revise your remarks. I think what you have is someone as clearly criminal and deceptive as roy cohn. Yes. But less effective in getting away with it. Yes. Fascinating narrative here that goes beyond what we knew two hours ago, im reading from the documents. I hope people bear with me its interesting. Bob muellers investigators explain the first time they spoke to him was august 7th at, quote, cohens request. And he did provide relevant
information to other parts of the probe. Then because they knew what they were doing when they asked him questions in the moscow project, quote, he later provided false answers in an effort to not contradict his congressional testimony, which we know was perjury. What does that tell you about the way they gathered and squeezed Michael Cohen and why are they revealing it now . I think theyre revealing it so we know what were dealing with, and they have the advantage to press him to tell the truth by taking his Tape Recordings and all of his letters and emails and the other witnesses they had to talk about him and to confirm what he had to say. Also in there they say that we have, by other means, confirmed what hes tilling us, and they were helped and he made some corrections even as he was talking to them about matters, which gave him credibility as a cooperating witness ain the Special Counsel investigation. I think thats substantial. I think the real question here, is whats going to happen when we move from whitaker to barr, we have a similar problem. Barr is the same person who when they had the iran. Contra investigation he said to pardon people youre talking about news on any other night we would have mentioned but we havent yet, for those coming home from work on a friday, President Trump announcing a new pick for an Attorney General, william barr, who served as an watergaattorne general in a republican administration, and who is considered a main stream voice. You might say Matt Whitaker is as low a bar as can you get when it comes to credentials. Hes certainly no Matt Whitaker. But what interests donald trump about this nominee is that he went along with a group of political pardons in the bush
administration. Were going to get to that later in the show. But maya i want you to weigh in on the same question as john, why are we learning about the way cohen was brought in to the Special Counsel probe tonight in your view . Were getting a strong, public signal that there is Corroborating Evidence. Thats the way i read it. I read, we dont have to just rely on Michael Cohen. He walked in there, the mistake he made, which is not one that a very, very accomplished lawyer would make, by the way. Is he walked in assuming he knew what the prosecutors knew. And thats the thing you never want to do. He walked in, he was surprised, he wasnt expecting to be asked those questions about the trump tower moscow. He then lied, which was dumb. After that lie, and in the remaining six sessions that he
had, he came clean. Thats the kind of complexity of the story. Heres a guy whos a career liar cheat, he was willing to do it again, but like any solid prosecutorial team, they had solid information, they knew they had facts he didnt enjoy they had, that also means they can prove it without him. Even if his credibility is somewhat impugned, they have additional evidence. When you put it like that and we just got all of this so were just making sense of it. So youre saying its an elegant implicit rebuttal to the donald trump claim that well, Michael Cohen is saying anything to get out of trouble. So he brought this seemingly bad stuff to mueller and now theyre all chewing on it. What youre saying is this footnote shows no, heres the time line of we had the bad stuff, thats how we knew he was lying. Now hes an extra witness but not a primary one on moscow
trump tower. Cooperate with us and youre going to be in a better position than if you dont because were going to get you. I want everyone to stay with me, john. Stay with me everyone. Theres a whole different filing from Paul Manafort tonight. Nbcs ken delaney has been leading the filing on that. Heres what we learned, it is significantly redacted. We did learn that the Special Counsel is saying Paul Manafort lied about his interactions with a man named konstantin kilimnik, thats important because the Special Counsel said kilimnik had ongoing ties to russian intelligence. Theres a reference to a meeting between kilimnik and an individual whose name is blacked out in the filing. Paul manafort lied about that. The Special Counsel also alleged that Paul Manafort lied about another separate Department Of Justice investigation that manafort offered information about. And lastly the Special Counsel counsel said manafort lied when he said he wasnt in contact with anyone from the Trump Administration. Turns out he was until may of this year. And because of all of that, the Special Counsel has cancelled manaforts Plea Agreement and hes now facing up to 15 years in prison. When you look at that line, does that relate in your view or is it possible to say, to obstruction or potentially collusion related things since capitol hill ne kilimnik is one of the, potentially, russianlinked handlers . To ken. Im sorry i thought you were talking to someone else. Im sorry, im the anchor im supposed to use names, thats on me. To ken dilanian. I think kilimnik has always been a Mystery Figure in terms of collusion. We dont know exactly his role. It goes to the question of Paul Manaforts role in any contact with russians during the campaign. Because of the redactions we just dont see the full picture here ari. Copy. I appreciate your precision on that. Bringing back nancy, our resident judge, i want to go to sum up more of what mueller has said basically through the cohen filing because hes getting into the trump tower deal more than we have before. He said the moscow project was, quote, a lucrative Business Opportunity required the assistance of the russian government and the company could have been received hundreds of millions of dollars from russian sources. Nancy, do you view this as an indication that finances may be at the heart of bob muellers probe of what a Collusion Conspiracy looks like . Money and not just where it
started, which we knew publically was about email hacking . I think thats how they followed manafort. In the litigation over whether or not the Special Prosecutor had a right to go after manafort, one of the things they said was what they were doing was following the money. Following the money that the ukraine sources to manafort. And i think following the money is what they are doing throughout. Getting back to the sentencing issue, i am reminded that john dean, for example, when he testified before congress, i believe he did some time for his role in nixons obstruction of justice. So the notion that cohen would get some time, i think that this is right, would make some sense. That was the other question. But the other thing, with respect to the russian issue, we have to step back. Theres almost like it was we thought this case was about flynn, Michael Flynn lying about his contacts with the russians. Which when, if you recall, sally
yates said that was an issue concern about the russians might be willing to extort from donald trump, or it was a way of influencing them because people were lying about russian contacts. So even a failed Trump Tower Project opens the door to the russians, basicall