Country that can be attorney general. Hes a fine man. Im not asking him to be fired, but the relationship is not working. To replace him, you have to replace him with somebody who is highly qualified and will commit to the senate to allow mueller to do his job. The president s campaign against sessions, of course, escalated in recent days after trumps former fixer, michael cohen, implicated him in Campaign Finance violations the same week his Campaign ChairmanPaul Manafort was confiktvicted tax fraud charges. And now the wall street journal is reporting that Paul Manafort was, in fact, angling for a plea deal with mueller in the second upcoming trial. Those negotiations reportedly stalled over issues raised by mueller. Joining us today, former u. S. Attorney joyce vance, frank figliusi, elise jordan, former aide in the george w. Bush white house, now cohost of the podcast words matter. Sam stein, how did you get here . Oversight. Hes the politics editor of the daily beast. And Michael Steele, former chair of the rnc. All msnbc analysts. Joyce vance, lets start with you. During the course of your career as u. S. Attorney, i mean, you welcomed and prompted a lot of people to say it at the expense of the u. S. Government and various federal prisons. And so let me ask you, as u. S. Attorney, whats going on when you have a guy on trial, in federal court in virginia, on tax charges, and he doesnt want to cut a deal apparently with the special prosecutor, bob muellers office. Yet at the same time the trial is ongoing, his lawyers apparently, its reported, that hes trying to cut a deal on a second trial scheduled to start in a couple of weeks in september in the district of columbia. What would be the thinking there, according to your prosecutorial mind . So theres two possibilities here. One is, and its just true of some defendants, no matter how good the governments evidence is against them, they dont want to plead guilty until theyve heard that evidence come in in front of the jury. Its not a great strategy. It simply doesnt lead to an ability to cooperate or reduction in sentence, typically. But some defendants cant get to the point where they want to talk guilty plea until the jury is deliberating. Its rare but it happens. Possibly more likely in this case is the fact that manafort, through his own decision, faced two separate trials. It didnt have to be that way. The government offered him one trial in the district of columbia, but he wasnt willing to waive some venue and jurisdiction issues that required the counts to be tried in the Eastern District of virginia. And theres some consequences to having two separate trials, one of which is under the complicated federal sentencing formula, he would be a previously convicted felon, and that will enhance his sentence a little bit. White collar sentences are never really high. So having faced conviction, he likely wanted to cut a deal and see if he could somehow combine the two into a guilty plea. What about the legal costs of two trials . Legal cost is, you know, an interesting thought. The second trial in d. C. Is not a repeat of the virginia trial. His codefendant is a russian, who is in russia, not available to be tried alongside him. Many of the exhibits, now that weve seen the governments exhibit list, are emails that are headlined in russian. This is a lot closer to talking about manaforts misconduct with dictators in the Eastern European theater. Perhaps issues that are closer to this presidency. So in addition to the strength of the governments evidence, which hes already had a taste of, and yet another near certain conviction in a far less Friendly Forum than the Eastern District of virginia, he does look at this enhanced sentencing list and suddenly he has to be asking himself, are there things that i can do even without cooperating with the government that let me reduce my exposure, both in terms of sentencing time and maybe in terms of the fines and forfeitures, so i can preserve some assets for my family. Frank, when this was occurring, we have the tweet from President Trump, implying his gratitude to Paul Manafort for not flipping, for not being broken. Let me ask you, when you look at it, how close do tweets like that come to obstruction of justice . Yeah, i think if you go towards a mindset to intent to obstruct, this becomes another piece in that puzzle, trying to show the president s intention, thats what you have to do when you prove obstruction. I have a theory on this, Paul Manafort doesnt want this stuff to come out at the next trial. This is about being the agent of a Foreign Government. This is about, as joyce said, russians and ukrainians. The evidence thats going to come out here is ugly, and its going to point badly toward the president and who he surrounds himself with. So i think manafort gave it a shot to not let this trial happen. I think mueller heard what he had to say, and mueller said not good enough, were heading to trial. Michael steele, he just raised an issue that befuddles me and i think a lot of people out there, and it is this, that basically were talking about russias involvement. Sort of an act of war against the United States government, and yet there has been nothing but crickets from most of the members, most of the republican members of the United States senate. Why . What is going on here . Its our country that is being attacked. Well, this was a matter of the question of putting party before country, its putting donald trump before everything else. These are men and women who are looking at their states, looking at the president s value to them in that state, meaning hes very popular or somewhat popular. And thats the calculation. You have that also being buffeted by the fact that they dont want to create a political firestorm around all of this. In other words, if they dont address it, if they dont look at it, it kind of goes away or it doesnt exist. You and i know thats not true. Thats not the case. And in fact, what the Republican Leadership comes off as is feckless. Uninterested. And certainly raises more concerns about culpability and their ability to actually govern, not just in passing legislation, but actually protecting the interest of the country when a Foreign Government has engaged with us the way russia has under the protection of this president. Sam, you cover this a lot and other things. What is your read on this . I think its tough to read, because like you, its befuddling at times. We had a case of a Foreign Government involving itself in our election. And a lingering threat that everyone acknowledges is out there. Yet by and large the legislative branch is utterly paralyzed by it, not knowing what to do. Protective measures are not being pushed forward. So you get a sense that people are waiting for the next shoe to drop. And its befuddling. The other thing that do you think hes going to fire Jeff Sessions . I dont think hell do it before the election. I think the people around him said that would be crazy and politically disastrous. I think he also is aware of the fact that it will be difficult to get someone else in there. The next step is how do you get someone through the senate . If you think suddenly the senate will get a vertebrae . He will need to take stock of what the next senate looks like. Its possible it will have more republican members. There will be more people in the next senate who are republican supporters of trump. So its possible hell have more leeway in the next senate. But even then, i still do believe fundamentally that for people like Lindsey Graham, even though he says sessions should go out, but there are enough people who said we dont just want to put an apologist for donald trump in there. But i dont think at this judge ch juncture, an attorney general could just bottle everything up. He would still face trouble in the next congress, even with a new attorney general. Elise, Lindsey Graham was on the today show this morning, and i want you to take a listen to what he said. Lets watch it. This relationship is beyond repair, i think. But senator graham, i mean, the only beef the president seems to have against him is that hes not going to get rid of the investigation into President Trump. Let me finish the second part. Its much deeper than that. What are we mising . We wont say on this show, but its a pretty deep breach, and heres what im suggesting, that hes not the only man in the country that can be attorney general. Okay. Its much deeper than that, and we cant go into it on this show. I feel like he might have been on the bachelor giving analysis about relationship advice, and theres something i cant say on tv because its too personal. Yet at the same time, hes seemingly auditioning for the attorney general role. You cant help but to feel that part of this facade is that Lindsey Graham perhaps has aspirations on his own of being appointed to that position himself, the things that he says that oh, there are many people in the country that can fill this role. Michael steele, im going to put it on you again, these are your guys. Oh, my gosh. Whats your take . I dont even get where lindsey is coming from here. Just take the i. V. Out of the arm, lindsey, take the trump i. V. Out and stop it. What is this breach . Tell me what is the thats deeper than recusing yourself from the Mueller Probe . What is deeper than that for trump . Nothing. There is nothing deeper than that for trump with respect to this attorney general. So this is all about exactly as the question was put to him about how this president was to fire the attorney general simply for that reason. So this idea that, you know, the attorney general has done sessions has done something so horrible, so much worse than that. What is the only thing the president has been talking about for 18 months . How this attorney general didnt recuse himself. Hes never inferred, because he cant help himself. If its something deep, hell tell us what it is. It might be what he hasnt done with respect to the other side of the coin, which is lots of republicans want the attorney general to launch investigations into hillary clinton, even though it has been investigated. Lots of them want to go back to the emails, and lots of them have these conspiratorial ideas of the steele dossier and how that came to be and the fisa application. Jeff sessions hasnt gone down those rabbit holes. I understand, you cant take the crazy step of firing bob mueller, but maybe divert attention towards this other field. Except when you listen to the way Lindsey Graham said what he said, youre thinking, does he know anything about the grassy knoll . I think thats my personal ambition i want to key in on one thing lindsay said. When he says the next attorney general will have to allow mueller to finish his work, thats very different than how his work is treated. Remember, there will be a report turned in at the a. G. Level, and something has to be done with that, released to the public, perhaps a request to indict, articles of impeachment. That next attorney general is not someone who should say i let mueller finish and put it in the garbage can. Thats what im concerned about. Joyce, what happens to that report once it goes over to justice, given the turbulence around whether Jeff Sessions is going to be there or not, what happens . Where does it go . What are the mechanics of that . Were operating under a set of regulations called the special counsel regulations. They were written when the independent counsel who investigated a number of other cases back in the bush administration, when those regs were allowed to sunset without being reupped. Special counsel is a little different. So at the end of the special counsel investigation, theres a sort of a triggering mechanism is the best way to describe it, where mueller, if he chooses to deliver a report to Rod Rosenstein, and he could also make a recommendation at that point. He might make a recommendation that folks involved in that report be indicted. He might make a recommendation that there be no indictments. But the key is, rosen steins response. If Rod Rosenstein overrules the special counsel, then his report goes up to the hill and is broadly available. Its possible that rosenstein could agree with whatever muellers request is, and then the report would have limited circulation. But the bottom line here is that whether or not mueller writes sort of a fulsome report, the amount of circulation it gets will largely be a function of Rod Rosenstein, the Deputy Attorney generals call in this regard. Sam, what do you think of the over, under as to when the report will leak, 10, 15 seconds . No one has picked up on this. About a week ago, Rudy Giuliani put in a tweet that the president s team was preparing their own report. Now, i dont know why or what theyre doing here. I dont know if theyre interviewing people. But i have a feeling that theyre going to drop that report about the time of the mueller report. Im sure President Trumps report will be a tweet. Very honest, very formative, based on pure facts, im sure. Joyce vance, thank you very much for joining us. Always a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Coming up, President Trump rejects the norms of being a president and hes finding out that it goes both ways. Plus, after President Trump had to be forced to do the right thing in honoring john mccain, it begs the question, why havent any of mccains republican colleagues publicly admonished the president s behavior . And why the president woke up this morning and decided to pick a fight with google. All of that coming up. Of that c. Thats why theres otezla. Otezla is not a cream. Its a pill that treats moderate to Severe Plaque Psoriasis differently. With otezla, 75 clearer skin is achievable. Dont use if youre allergic to otezla. It may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. Otezla is associated with. An increased risk of depression. Tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts,. Or if these feelings develop. Some people taking otezla reported weight loss. 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Tell your Healthcare Provider if youve had depression or other Mental Health problems. Decrease alcohol use while taking chantix. Use caution when driving or operating machinery. The most common side effect is nausea. I dont think about cigarettes anymore. Talk to your doctor about chantix. The unnecessary controversy President Trump created after john mccains death illustrates what has become a reality. That the president makes no attempt to undertake or even understand the duties the American People have come to expect of the leader of the free world. Ashley parker of the Washington Post calls him the president nongrata and she writes this morning in the Washington PostAshley Parker joins us now. Ashley, i love great newspaper leads. So here you go, kid. Shunned two funerals and one Royal Wedding so far. President trump may well be on his way to becoming president nongrata. Great job, great job. Now, my question for you, after reading the piece, and it jumped into my mind, reading a very fine piece this morning in the Washington Post, is how difficult it must have been, what did you hear, according to your reporting, how difficult must it have been for general john kelly, who spent his entire life in the marine corps, dedicated to fighting for freedom, and as part of that job, knows what to do when someone dies . So this is one of these stories the president s behavior surrounding senator mccains death that looks good for no one in this white house. It made the president himself look small and petty. But youre right, its also the people around him who sort of know what is called for in these times, especially general kelly. But also even someone Like White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee sanders who was one of the people who came to the president before senator mccain had passed with a statement and had to listen to the president sort of say no, im were not going to call him a hero. Were not going to praise his life and military service. And im just going to send out a tweet. She too is the daughter of a prominent politician, so theres that little extra parallel or poignancy. So this was something everyone in the white house sort o