Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline White House 20180129

Yes, the president wasnt a part of this decisionmaking process and we would refer you to the fbi where Christopher Wray serves as the director which as i said last week, and ill repeat again today, the president has full confidence in him and has put the decisions at the fbi in his hands. But her answer defies the reality that the president is very much involved in personnel decisions for his new fbi director chris wray. The president tweeting four times his antimccabe sentiments and making these comments to reporters last week. Should mccabe go, mr. President . Should mccabe go . Mccabe got more than 500,000 from essentially Hillary Clinton. And is he investigating Hillary Clinton . So should he go . Do you remember, did anybody here many of my speeches where i talked about mccabe, he was the star of my speech. This isnt now. I said, a man who was more or less in charge of got the wife got 500,000 from terry, terry is hillary. And, yeah, i mean do you regret having him as your fbi director . You know what, i keep out of it. You find that hard to believe. I kaep out of it. Thats the way it fell. Hes been there, its one of those things. But he was the star of many of my speeches because he got from 5 to 700,000, whatever the number was. Got that money for the wife. But mccabe was also the Deputy Director of the fbi when the bureau came under attack largely by democrats for tipping the election in trumps favor. Of course, now hes the central figure in another drama engulfing the House Intelligence Committee this hour about whether to release a memo that the department of justice warned would be extraordinarily reckless to intelligence gathering, that is central to protecting the nations security. Well be joined by Eric Swalwell for that breaking news story. Reporters covering all of this. Nbc news chief White House Correspondent hallie jackson. Ken delanieian, nbc National Reporter carol lee has breaking news for us this hour. Plus paul butler, former federal prosecutor, msnbc legal analyst. Let me read the first couple paragraphs and you take it from there. You write, trumps gripes against mccabe included wifes politics and comeys ride home. The day he fired comey, he became furious watching television footage of the ousted fbi director boarding a government funded plane from los angeles back to washington, d. C. , that he called the bureaus acting director Andrew Mccabe to vent. Trump demanded to know why comey was allowed to fly home on an fbi plane after he had been fired, these people said. Mccabe told the president he hadnt been asked to authorize comeys flight. If anybody asked he would have approved it. The president was silent for a moment then turned on mccabe. Ask your wife how it feels to be a loser, trump said. Mccabe replied, okay, sir. Trump hung up the phone. Carol, i dont know how to put this. I talked to a couple of the president s friends. He comes off as such a jerk. This person said, he sure does. Well, certainly mccabe was taken aback by this phone call. We spoke to several people who he had told about it. You know, i think what this illustrates is its just another kind of data point into what this was like for mccabe serving under President Trump. You know, weve seen a number of things that have come to light about private conversations that the president has had. And this is another instance where you can see this president who just really distrusted mccabe from the start. And so you have on one hand the acting director whose boss was just fired, and being insulted by the sitting president , president insulting his wife, and then you have a president who feels justified in that because he thinks that there is this conspiracy of bias at the top ranks of the fbi that are out to get him. The other thing that it illustrates is just how much the president was so angry about james comey that it wasnt enough to just fire him, and he fired him unsermon iously. Youll remember that. But he wanted him to be stranded in almost this apprenticelike way. And that he was irritated that he would even be able to board this governmentfunded plane and return to california, and that was what precipitated the call. Paul butler, does it go to the president s state of mind that hes so obsessed with punishment, obsessed with retaliation, he wanted the image of jim comey sitting in a middle seat on a southwest flight with six stops back to d. C. I mean, does it go to his state of mind that hes so obsessive about punishing people that he views are against him . When andy mccabe was also the Deputy Director of fbi, when jim comey released the letter i think ten days before the election, reopening the investigation into Hillary Clintons emails and wanting to inform congress that he found more email on Anthony Weiners laptop. Andy mccabe was the deputy directser on that day as well. I think it absolutely goes to his state of mind and it corroborates his criminal intent frankly with regard to some of the obstruction issues under investigation. So, just like there is a trump hotel and trump towers, the president seems to think there should be a Trump Department of justice and trump fbi. And, nicolle, who i have questions about now is sessions, the attorney general and his role. He reportedly pressured Christopher Wray, the director of the fbi, to get rid of mccabe. And lets be clear. Mccabe has done nothing wrong. He broke no rules. Hes allowed to have a wife who has her own career who runs for office. The fbi says that none of the wifes political operations had anything to do with his role in the bureau. And so this is yet another instance of the president bullying and pressuring Law Enforcement agents who hes concerned about investigating him. Hallie jackson, why does the white house keep saying things that we can, you know, rack the tape and show them lying about . They said we aired tape on friday of Kellyanne Conway and Sarah Huckabee sanders saying the president never talked about firing bob mueller. We know from these accounts that the white house counsel, don mcgahn, has shared in his interactions with mueller that he indeed did so. Sarah Huckabee Sanders takes to the podium in a room that used to be a place where the world watched for sort of a message from america, and said the president wasnt involved today. Its up to Christopher Wray. The president , we found four tweets. The president tweeting the problem is that the acting head of the fbi and the person in charge of the hillary investigation, andy mccabe got 700,000 in july tweeting why didnt a. G. Sessions replace acting director andy mccabe, a comey friend in charge of the clinton investigation. Why didnt donald trump replace andy mccabe when jim comey resigned . So, its interesting, nicolle, because i do think the world is watching what happens at that podium inside the briefing room, but probably for a different reason than it used to be. In your days in the white house. I think that what youve seen and what you saw from Sarah Sanders is an insistence, an insistence. We went down the front row every reporter asking a variation of the question what did donald trump know about andy mccabes departure. The white house is insisting publicly the president did not even know that mccabe was leaving the fbi until the reports first started coming out about it. I will tell you that when this news start today break when internally at nbc we heard this first, i spoke with sources inside the white house who had not yet heard that this was happening. And so i think that that is reflected at what you saw publicly. That said, the president clearly has a problem with Andrew Mccabe. That is undeniable. You showed the tweets, right. You have this carol lee reporting. Jives with what the president tweeted about andy mccabes wife. This is not knew. Weve known this for weeks now. So, that is the part that i think is raising some questions here. What was the president s reaction . One reporter very directly said, was the president disappointed to hear about it . And Sarah Sanders, the press secretary, said i havent talked to him about it. What is interesting, nicolle, is the intersection here of the two top stories you mentioned at the beginning of your to show. Andrew mccabe and the issue youre going to talk about of the secret fisa memo. What you are starting to see are some conservatives on the right, donald trump jr. Among them, the president s son starting to make this link or imply some kind of a connection between the departure of Andrew Mccabe and this memo that the House Intelligence Committee is going to be talking about tonight. Look at, from, the breitbart headline making the same link as well. So in some corners of the conservative world youre starting to see this bubble up. I have a feeling that is what youre going to see the story line play out for over the next few days. Ken delanieian, can you weigh in on all of the targets the president s eye are and what he has he tweeted four times he hates andy mccabe. There is reporting, the Washington Post reporting trump still wants to fire rosenstein. Trump recently revived his complaints that Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein was ng properly supervising muellers probe and suggested that he should fire rosenstein. Im not even sure what that looks like. Ongoing discontent with jeff sessions. And while they carve out Christopher Wray and say the fbi is his to run, they certainly didnt defer to him when questions about the nunes memo came to light. The Justice Department had to send over a very strongly worded memo calling it extraordinarily reckless to do what we know the president wants to do, which is to release that memo. That is absolutely right, nicolle. I think, look, its obvious donald trump is angry with these people because he views them as in some way participating in what he sees as a witch hunt, which is the trump russia Mueller Investigation. What is going to be interesting is what happens when the replacements come in and they behave in exactly the same manner . Because theyre professionals and theyre carrying out their duties. One of the duties of the fbi is to participate in the Mueller Investigation and to support the special counsel and to, frankly, to investigate donald trump. And i think hallie made an important point about this memo. This really is playing into the whole dynamic between the Justice Department and the white house and the fbi, because, look, this is extraordinary whats about to happen tonight and what could transpire over the next few days. If the House Intelligence Committee votes to make this public, this classified memo about one of the most secretive processes in the federal government which is fisa warrants, how we surveil u. S. Persons and National Security investigation, there are people at the fbi and the Justice Department who are very, very concerned about what secrets will be spilled if this memo is made public. But the question is, are they being allowed to weigh in and make and make the white house aware of those concerns and make that stick. Or is the white house going to simply overrule them, make this memo public for political reasons then what will be the blow back and the implications of that, nicolle. Hallie, let me bring you back in on that and ask you. There was a New York Times reporting the secret memo hints at a new republican target as weve been talking about, Rod Rosensteins job may be on the line, not just for the management or mismanagement in trumps view of the mueller probe, but also reporting over the weekend in the Washington Post that the president had his chief of staff, john kelly, call over to the Justice Department not once, but twice i guess once was in person and once was on the phone, and express the president s desire for this memo to be released. Really an unprecedented break with his own Justice Department. Right. How does the white house explain the policy or the politics there . That its ultimately, in their view, the president s decision, nicole. And hes the president basically. I will tell you that both privately in conversations today with the people inside that west wing and youve also seen this publicly. The white house says, hey, d. O. J. Is not involved in this process. Now, heres what could happen. Lets say the House Intelligence Committee goes ahead and makes a move to release to go ahead and move forward with making the memo public. That doesnt mean this memo is going to go public. The president , as you know, still has to sign off on that. I would be extremely surprised to see anything from the white house on that before the state of the union. Just from a message and optics standpoint it doesnt make sense. It doesnt preclude anything, thats the sense im getting. It is possible over the next fourday period again, if house intel decides to move forward with this, the white house may, in fact, decide yes, the d. O. J. Should come in and perhaps review this memo, take a look at t. But right now you have, again, and nicole, its like deja vu, a break between the white house and the department of justice. The president and his own, you know, attorney general and d. O. J. , that is also not a new story in this administration. Hallie, hang on a second. Everyone stand by. Joining us now by phone is democratic congressman Eric Swalwell, member of the intel house committee. Thank you for jumping on the phone with us. If you could speak to whether or not you believe this House Republican memo, the fourpage memo which in the words of the Justice Department would be extraordinarily reckless to share and make public, what you believe is going to come to pass in terms of the president and the republicans on your committee wanting that made public. Good afternoon, nicolle. Its my hope for the sake of independence and the rule of law at the department of justice that this memo never sees the light of day. It is riddled with deliberate inaccuracies that can only be intended to undermine bob mueller. Now, the democrats, we have what we believe is a fuller picture memo, a memo that i think accurately counters some of the falsehood that they put out there and were going to try and have that released at least to the membership of the house. And i hope that some of the more reasonable minds on our committee on the republican side allow that to go forward. Can you explain or do you understand yourself why republican devin nunes wont share the memo with his Senate Counterpart republican richard burr . I can only conclude that richard burr knows the true underlying facts here and that it would be counterproductive for devin nunes to show it to him because senator burr would not allow it to stand, knowing what he knows. Again, chairman nunes has put us in a position where we can either right a wrong with another wrong, disseminate classified information which were not going to do, or remain silent and have to talk around classified information. I can only tell you, nicolle, it is a Brain Washing memo. It is its only purpose is to poison the well of the members who would have to hold the president accountable if he were to fire mueller by tainting their perception of the fbi. I know you cant talk about the fisa warrant process, but let me just read something that was in the New York Times today and see if we can get in the weeds a little bit. I think our viewers understand this issue pretty well. So, the New York Times reported today in a story called secret memo hints at new target Rod Rosenstein. The New York Times reporting the memos contention is fbi and Justice Department officials failed to adequately explain to an intelligence court judge. So, an fbi source stopped me right there and said, if someone failed to adequately explain to an intelligence court judge, theyd get thrown out, that that alone would never happen. That a fisa warrant is only granted when the person applying for a warrant adequately explains to intelligence court judge. So, let me read the rest of the sentence. It goes on to say, in seeking a warrant for surveillance of mr. Page, thats carter page, the president the person the president named as one of his National Security advisors at a Board Meeting with the Washington Post, that they were relying in part on research by an investigator Christopher Steele that had been financed by the dnc and Hillary Clintons campaign. So, i was told by an fbi source that even if that had been part of the material, it was corroborated by other corroborating intelligence and that the problem with revealing the fourpage republican product by the committee is that it would reveal sources and methods. Can you say whether that is among your concerns or in the kind of category of concerns that you have . Of course, nicolle, i cant comment on whether this concerns a fisa application or not, but there is a member of the judiciary committee, my other committee, we have oversight of the courts and i can tell you that the fisa process is one where judges are appointed by democratic and republican president s. There is intense scrutiny that is applied to any fisa affiant, a d. O. J. Official Going Forward seeking fisa surveillance. And the court can reject or send the application back and ask questions or ask for more information. And so, again, this is i think in concert with what the president said in early 2017 when he first accused the Obama Administration of wiretapping trump tower. They continue to make baseless attacks against the fbi and without going into contents of this memo, this is just more efforts to really just torch the entire fbi building. Not caring what it does to the importance and independence of the rule of law. Why is chairman nunes involved in this at all . I had understood that he had recused himself. What is his role . He had been recused, i guess in name only. He was still signing subpoenas up until this point, but he did preside not only in spirit, but in body at the meeting where they allowed the memo to be released to the house. I think that really defies his recusal. Paul ryan can intervene. As you know, the chairman of the Intelligence Committee is not appointed by the house, but the only position that is appointed by the speaker and the Ranking Member or the minority leader of the house. And so paul ryan can intervene and i think its necessary at this point. But it seems like he continues to give him the green light. Devin nunes was caught, i dont know, there was some mystery uber ride where he ditched a staffer where he went over to collude at the white house on masking caper. What is your hunch on the level and degree of coordination with the white house between nunes and the white house . It certainly looks like it looks like theyre working together because the House Intelligence Committee will see leaks come out that advance the white house narrative, and then the president will tweet about it and its become kind of a feedback loop. Again, they are seeking to protect the president , but the Collateral Damage really affects the line fbi agents who are out there toiling away to plrotect s from terrorism and homicides and Money Laundering and corruption. They have to go to court every day and ask judges to believe in what theyre saying. If you have the president and his aides on the House Intelligence Committee working to discredit Law Enforcement, that hurts the work that theyre doing. So, what happens today . Take us through the next couple of hours on your committee. What will happen today . The democrats are seeking, as i said, to correct the record, to put into focus what is really going on with what the republican memo asserted. Just for the body of the house of representatives. Now, we hope our republicans will vote in favor republican colleagues will vote in favor to do that. If not, were not going to stand violent and let them as i said just discredit bob mueller and the fbi so well have to find other constructive ways to illuminate what theyre doing. But the republicans could move to release to the public their memo. And again, we would hope they would not do that, that they would, you know, adhere to the concerns of the fbi who has called their memo reckless and, you know, find a more, i would say, collaborative way to address any concerns they have, but not to taint the public sentiment of this investigation. Congressman Eric Swalwell, thank you so much for jumping on the phone. If anything happens before 5 00, you know our number. Thank you. Paul butler, let me ask you to weigh in on what you just heard. Let me add to the conversation this. This is about this is from the Washington Post reporting over the weekend, trump is inclined to have that released, the memo released just because it will shed light a Senior Administration official speaking on background said apparently the rumors it will shed light, it will help the investigators come to a conclusion. The white house is not even pretending it is trying to help investigators come to their desired conclusion. What do anticorruption prosecutors make of the public statements of this white house . We had this bizarre spectacle of the president of the United States attacking the Justice Department and the fbi. And so the issue is fisa warrants, nicolle, they are very difficult to get because not only does the fbi have to first sign off on it, then you have to go to the Justice Department. Prosecutors there have to sign off on it. And then you take it to a federal judge and you have to explain to her why in this instance there was probable cause to think that carter page was a foreign agent. And the judge asked, well, how do you know this . What are your sources . And if there are reasons to doubt the credibility of the source, then there has to be corroboration just as the congressman said. And so this is not a routine process. Its something that prosecutors take very seriously. And for the president , again, to undermine these hard working Civil Servants is just really beyond the pale. Carol lee, let me use that to get back to your breaking piece on our website. Trump gripes against mccabe included wifes politics, comeys ride home. In recent weeks the white house is agitated for mccabes exit saying he is part of a broader pattern of bias against the president in the highest levels of federal Law Enforcement. Defenders of the Justice Departments leadership say the charges of bias are part of the president s efforts to undermine the federal probe into russias m meddling between the Trump Campaign and moscow. Carol lee, everything comes back to impede, obstruct, halt, make more difficult the investigation into the original crime, sin, event, whatever you want to call it, that set off that Counter Intelligence investigation in the summer of 2016. Have you picked up on anything in all of your exclusive reporting, largely about the figures in this investigation . Have you come up with anything that disproves the idea that the Trump White House is trying to get rid of everybody who has knowledge of what his campaign did in terms of being in contact or coordination with russians and what they did to cover it up after they were in office . Well, i think if you just look at the mccabe instance, this is the white house for days has not defended mccabe, even asked point blank if the president wanted him fired. They wouldnt directly answer. The president has continuously attacked mccabe. So, you know, theres two things going on here. One, you know, does the president hope that some of these the leadership in the Justice Department leaves . Probably. But also there is the broader goal of just trying to kind of sow certain Public Opinion and give doubt. So, when there is actually finally a conclusion to the russia investigation, that if it does not go in the president s favor, then he has already planted the seed so that the public perceives it as something that was already from the start set up to not give him a fair shake and that was rooted in bias against him and was designed to undermine his presidency. So, theres kind of a lot going on there. But theres those two things. One, yes, he would probably like some of these folks to go, but two, he is really trying to undermine the investigation, and that is intended to possibly help him, after its conclusion, if it does not go in a way he hopes. And important to remind all of our viewers, all the men involved in the investigation at this point are republicans, largely appointed by him. Hallie jackson and carol lee, thank you so much for joining us. When we come back, seems like a good time for democrats and republicans to agree that the investigation being conducted by bob mueller should be shielded from the wildfire of partisan politics engulfing the d. O. J. And the fbi, right . Well, thats not the case. In a new low for republicans, theyll protect mueller efforts loosening. Also ahead why debating the state of Race Relations in america with jay z is a bad idea for donald trump. Stay with us. Pssst. What . I switched to geico and got more. More savings on Car Insurance . Aha. And an awardwinning mobile app. That is more. Oh, theres more. Mobile id cards, emergency roadside service. More technology. I can even add a new driver. Right from her phone geico. Expect great savings and a whole lot more. gasp singsong budget meeting sweet. If you compare last quarter to this quarter. Various mmm. Its no wonder everything seems a little better with the creamy taste of philly, made with fresh milk and real cream. Why are they afraid to send this to the Justice Department for review . Well, arent we separate but coequal . Dont we have the responsibility for oversight . The Justice Department will be able to see it because you have the executive branch and you have the legislative branch and as the legislative branch looks at it, it will send it to the executive branch beforehand. They have the approval whether to declassify and put it forward. So, they will have the opportunity you want the president in the committee. You want the president to declassify this memo . Having read this memo i think it would be appropriate the public has full view of it. I like watching Kevin Mccarthy explain the separation of government. The House Intel Committee set to vote this afternoon as congressman Eric Swalwell just told us on whether to make its contents public. Today congressman jim jordan on msnbc suggesting the memo could be the reason deputy fbi director Andrew Mccabe stepped down. Fbi director wray reviewed the memo yesterday and then today suddenly hes stepping down. There may be something to it. I just simply dont know. Youve seen the memo. Is Andrew Mccabe named in it . I cant tell you that until it goes public. What i tell you is it should go public. You seem to imply he is named. Director wray saw tfrmt those two things happened. Is there some relation, there may be, maybe not. Would you be surprised if there was a relation . Im not going to get into that. You brought it up, sir. Until this goes public i will tell you this. If americans are curious about how the dossier may or may not be used, theyre going to want to see this. Joining the conversation now is Associated Press White House Reporter joel colvin, rick steng l, msnbc analyst. Elise jordan, former aide in the george w. Bush white house, as well as msnbc analyst. And reporter from the boston globe. Ken and paul are still with us. Let me read something to you, elise, from the Washington Post. Paul ryan and Kevin Mccarthy, we just saw, are complicit in the counterattack on the fbi and the special prosecutor. They set the tone for the nonstop assault on mueller and the Justice Department setting their caucus loose to create a fog of confusion. They see their roles as the defense team for trump, not the leaders of a coequal branch of government to check the excesses of the executive. They in all likelihood will not insulate the special prosecutor nor prevent nunes, doing lasting damage to the fbi. Jennifer rubin, pulling no punches, but this seeming to be more than just what you and i talk about on and off the air sort of the shock and awe of the loss of the gops soul. But real damage to the countrys National Security. I think that this is an institutional failure, a failure of a branch of government that is supposed to be a coequal branch of government and providing actual oversight. And instead of providing that oversight, the gop has given blank checks to the National Security apparatus when its convenient and when they think that its in our National Security interest. And now you look at the flipsid3 of whats going on right now. Literally just after they all voted to reauthorize fisa, they are now coming out and talking about these egregious abuses and wanting to release this without having it vetted by the d. O. J. Or the fbi. I think that listening to trey gowdy is very instructive because he is saying he wants the fbi to review this. It should be released. Lets have it reviewed. Republicans shouldnt be interfering with the special counsel. Well, i wonder, you know, ive worked in the white house where the intelligence leading up to 9 11 became politicized, there was a process to declassify the pdb, what george w. Bush saw and knew about bin lauden. Dick clark was a whistle blower of sorts, if you will, who was talking about how he had been jumping up and down. There is precedent for intelligence that becomes part of a political food fight being declassified. Listening to Eric Swalwell on our air, it sounds like republicans are so impatient and so zealous to smear the fbi and get ahead of that process that theyve got the trumprun d. O. J. Sending out a letter saying it is extraordinarily reckless. Where do you think, sort of the ar bitter of all that is true and all that are hyperbole, where do you think things stand now for the Justice Department . Is that me, by the way . You are. You throw all the flags, you know, on reporting. So, okay. As the arbiter, both can be true. I accept the argument that they are besmirching the fbi that has nothing to do with the principles why we serve. At the same time there can be information in that memo that is worth the public knowing. In a social way like George Bernard shah said you cant show a gun in the first act of the play and not have it go off in the third act. People have to see it now. Now, the other thing is these customs that we all abide by are not recognized by the trump government. You know, the Preet Bharara christy todd whitman, they are norms and traditions we have obeyed for decades and generation thats this white house is just ignoring. These things have to become codified into law. So, even this idea that theres a classified memo that goes between two branches, it has to be reviewed by the fbi or the Justice Department. You cant just release it. Something like that should be codified into law. Its not even, ken delanieian going between the brarch much. They have refused to share this memo even if it does satisfy what rick is talking about, sort of a Public Interest in knowing some of these facts. Its so either sketchy, shady, or political that they havent shared it with richard burr, the republican chairman of the senate intel committee. [ inaudible ]. Review whats going on here. Republicans and donald trump spent a year lamb basting Hillary Clinton for allowing classified information to leak into her private email server and her state department email. Now they are talking about voting to release a memo that is about one of the most classified things the government does. You know, conducting surveillance on u. S. Persons suspected of being foreign agents. Its just incredible that this is even being contemplated and without the kind of Justice Department and fbi review that you would hope to have to prevent from compromising sources and methods. Theres already been a series of leaks that may have been deeply damaging to the investigation including the New York Times story, that he reupped the surveillance of carter page during the trump administration, during the spring. What im told is you would never get approval from a fisa judge to reauthorize surveillance on a u. S. Person unless the original surveillance had borne fruit. By way of trying to denigrate this process, what theyve told us is the Justice Department was able to convince a federal judge there was probable cause to believe that carter page was an agent of a foreign power. I reached out to carter page today and he has long denied hes an agent of russia. He simply didnt comment wittingly or unwittingly. Its all a big misunderstanding. My point is this all could be this is the middle of a criminal investigation thats supposed to be secret. The republicans are digging into it and releasing some selective aspects of it with a clear intent it seems to many people to undermine the investigation. Ken, i want to get jill and matt who has a new story out in the conversation. I want to drill down on one thing you just said which is what this is about. This is about a warrant. This is about a warrant that was reauthorized or resort of permitted at the highest levels of the fbi by Rod Rosenstein to wiretap or to listen to, to surveil carter page because, contrary to what jim jordan said in the tape we played on our air, there was more than just the dossier to suggest that he was an agent or working in concert with an agent of a foreign power. Can you talk about all of the fog speak to Jennifer Rubens piece about the fog. On our air, jordan said something that the minute i heard it, i heard from fbi sources that that is not the case, that a fisa warrant would have been granted with intel that was solely in that initial early draft of the dossier, that that must have been corroborated by no one would be protecting the dossier. Christopher steeles name has been everywhere. No one would care about protectsing him. But there are other sources and methods that could be compromised if they reveal the corroborating intelligence. Thats right. Now, my sources have told me its perfectly it may well be the case that Christopher Steeles information was used because he was considered a credible source by the fbi. But we know from other reporting that there was other streams of information. From foreign intelligence agencies. There is a really interesting story on the web right now about how the Dutch Intelligence Agency cooperated and documented some of the russian hacks that are going on. There is a stream of reporting about members of the Trump Team Meeting with foreign officials. That was passed on to the cia and former cia director john brennan has testified that he passed some of that information on to the fbi. So, all of that, we believe, went into these fisa applications. Certainly not only the dossier, and that is exactly what is at issue. The democrats have read this document are telling us in so many words that its selectively quotes and pulls things to make it seem like the dossier was a sole basis for the fisa application and that is absolutely not the case. All right. Lets bring in the New York Times justice reporter and msnbc contributor matt apusa sitting in the hot seat between scoops. Let me read a piece from your article that just dropped. You report in a recent conversation Christopher Wray, the fbi director raised concerns about a forthcoming Inspector General report examining the actions of Andrew Mccabe and other senior fbi official during the 2016 president ial campaign. When the bureau was investigating both Hillary Clintons email use and the Trump Campaigns connections to russia. Can you talk about how all of the, what have now become highly politicized investigations that Andrew Mccabe as Deputy Director of fbi may have played into his decision today to resign, and tell us what you learned about his interactions with chris wray, the new fbi director . Well, what we know is that mccabe has told people that he felt like he was under pressure to go. Now, on the one hand that shouldnt come as too much of a surprise. Alma you have to do is read the president s twitter feed and you can see that pressure playing out. On the other hand, were told that there was a recent conversation between chris wray, the fbi director, and mccabe. You know, the inherited deputy that he inherited from jim comey, in which wray said depending who you talk to, either encourages belief or offers one former official we talked to close to mccabe said the director offered him, well maybe we could give you another job. Now, when youre the deputy, any other job is a pretty big demotion and mccabe was basically in his last days anyways. And so faced with that he decided to leave. And as you say, the timing of this, even if this is all completely aboveboard and the director is trying to preserve, you know, the integrity of the bureau because of perceptions of, you know, political, whatever, the timing, it just makes it look like the or it certainly opens it up to criticism that the fbi director is responding to the president s own pressure. I spoke to a friend of Christopher Wrays who debated that point. He said chris wray has every right to surround himself with his own people. But as you point out, the optics of being pounded by donald trump near daily on twitter and in two press avails last week certainly dont make it look like this was just chris wray putting his stamp on it. Can you tie together the departures of andy mccabe and the two other individuals who were close to jim comey, neither of them household names, but one was a well respected general counsel who served under the mueller regime, under the comey regime, mr. Baker, and another close aide to comey . Because it looks like to the president s critics like a purge of people who can corroborate comeys account of his firing. Exactly. And so, look, a new fbi director comes in and he has every right to surround himself with who he wants. So, when wray came in, anybody who pays attention to the fbi, who is as dorky as i am, sorry, hes probably going to get a new fbi deputy. A new Deputy Director. Jim baker who is counsel to comey, was very close to comey, all right. The new fbi director is probably going to get a new general counsel. Jim radiki, chief of staff. Wray is probably going to get a new counsel. The president makes it harder for the fbi director to do what donald trump wants him to do by pressuring him to do it. Because that was all going to happen. But because the president comes out and is like, i want a clean house and he like taunts mccabe and baker on twitter, it makes it harder for wray to bring his own people in without creating the impression that hes doing the president s bidding. So, it just puts the entire fbi seventh floor in a real bind. Matt apusa, someone who knows that building about better than everybody else on the planet. Thank you so much for joining us. Congrats on the scoop. Well be calling on you early and often. When we come back, im old enough to remember republicans thought it was such a good idea to protect bob mueller that they introduced legislation to do just that. Now republicans singing a very different tune. With 5 times more ethnic regions. Ancestrydna can pinpoint where your ancestors are from. And the paths they took to a new home. Could their journey inspire yours . Order your kit at ancestrydna. Com does the president commit to not firing Robert Mueller . The president has not even discussed that. The president is not discussing firing bob mueller. That was Kellyanne Conway last august. Either sharing alternate facts or revealing she wasnt in the loop when she answered a question about whether the president ever explored firing the special counsel. And since nbc news confirmed an earlier report that he actually did, trump has been crying fake news. That is something to remember when discussing crimes committed in the ongoing russia investigation. Ken starr who served in the clinton years said it would not be a crime to fire the special counsel. What if he lied about it . If the reports are correct that President Trump sought to have mueller fired, then his public denial would be false. So, would that be grounds for impeachment . I think lying to the American People is a serious issue that has to be explored. I take lying to the American People very, very seriously. So, absolutely. Jill, let me bring you in on this. Weve been talking about the intersection of Donald Trumps white house, Donald Trumps changing stories, questioning donald trump, the risk for putting donald trump under oath in the mueller probe. What are you hearing from your white house sources about what i read in axios are describing as the perjury panic . Well, there is definitely concern about the president , you know, last week there was this gaggle, the president walked in unexpectedly to a briefing. Told reporters hed be more than happy to answer muellers questions and do it under oath. And then just maybe an hour later we wound up having a statement from one of the president s lawyers saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, hell sit down, but only on consultation with his attorneys. So, there is definitely concern about having the president , you know, sit down with mueller for and his team for how many hours on end answering questions, what kind of trouble could get himself into during that kind of conversation. I also want to followup on something matt apusa said in the last segment as well. About the terrible, terrible timing of mccabe. This is a time when the white house wants to be talking about the state of the union tomorrow. The uniom. He was supposed to be retiring in weeks. You have obstruction of justice being brought back to the forefront. Thats a great point. There is also some reporting from in bloomberg, ive watched trump testify under oath. It isnt pretty. Trump ultimately had to admit over the years how much he lied how much of real estate projects he owned, the price of his he said size, good grief, go to therapy. The trump organization, his wealth, his speaking fees, how many condos he sold. Whether he borrowed money from his family to avoid going bankrupt. He also lied in the deposition about his business dealings with career criminals. Not a good client. The last part, its not that he admitted he lied in the past. He admitted he lied during the deposition. That is why there would be the panic in the white house. Clearly where were headed here, hes going to be writing these answers down. Hes not going to be answering in person. On what planet do you live if you think bob mueller is going to take answers written for donald trump by lawyers that he could very easily contradict in his own tweets . Sorry. She cant even speak. Were going to let you catch your breath. Do you want to take a stab that the . Why on earth would bob mueller take written questions he wouldnt want to. There is executive privilege, there is the executive branch against the judicial branch. Trump can say, im not going to answer these questions. I mean, that is perfectly within his purview. Everything is within his purview, elise. George w. Bush was interviewed by Pat Fitzgerald in the valerie plame. Bill clinton testified. President s ultimately yielding im sorry it made me laugh so hard. We made elise cry. The idea of donald trump giving honest testimony and not bringing himself into even a greater world of hurt. Also the idea that that donald could take the fifth and hed be okay with that. He sees himself as completely able to go and win over the room in any situation. Hes not going to just be able to take the fifth. Because he tries to win over the room. He is incapable of stating a fact of doing that thing that children do, let me correspond with ho you describe it. And it is enhancement of the truth is what i do. That is what he does. And that is why bob mueller wants to talk to him. What do you with donald trump . I imagine him as sort of putty in your hands if you are the prosecutor. You make him talk. Because he can only decline to answer the questions if he takes the fifth, which again with most president s, you would think there is no way they would do that with this president , maybe. But nicolle, this is the question that hes afraid of from Robert Mueller, did you, mr. President , try to fire me . If he answered no, thats perjury or false statements. If he answers yes, it is evidence of obstruction of justice, his corroboration of his corrupt intent to try to influence the investigation. Jill, let me give you the quick last word. How nervous are white house aides that donald trump could contradicted the sworn testimony theyve already given to bob mueller and his team. Keep in mind, how many white house officials have already been in that room, if an interview winds up happening, these guys are arnold with so much information and so many details about each of the meetings that have taken place and of interest here and there is definitely cause for concern. Ken delaney and paul butler. Thank you so much. When we come back. The president is set to give his state of the union and well show you the tickets that are the talk of the town and not for the reasons the white house would like. Thats it . Yeah. Everybody two seconds dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is with great pleasure that we offer our congratulations on your acceptance. Through the Tuition Assistance program, every day mcdonalds helps more people go to college. Its part of our commitment to being americas best first job. But prevagen helps your brain with an ingredient originally discovered. In jellyfish. In clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve shortterm memory. Prevagen. The name to remember. Were back. Senator marco rubio this hour is looking forward to tomorrows state of the union a little revenge tweeting or trolling. Whoever printed the ticket. You expect these kind of mistakes in the White House Press release but the house is follow the example of the Trump White House and playing a role in the sloppiness. It is sad. It feels like our standards have dropped so much across the board. These Little Things that might not really be that important, but are a big deal just because they represent how serious we take these and everyone is distracted and refreshing Donald Trumps twitter feed or looking for a Maggie Haberman scoop or too busy to spell check the tickets for the state of the union. One of the most sayre monn ceremonial events in white house. It is like pages out of the onion. I do think that the depth of copy editing, you could do yes. Go, go. What happened was as everything went online, people started getting rid of copy editors because you thought, if it is wrong, i could just correct. It but when you are printing a ticket to the state of the union, you need a copy editor because it is on paper for post ert forever. There is your publishing psa of the day. Dont go anywhere. Well be right back. When a critical patient is far from the hospital, the hospital must come to the patient. Stay with me, mr. Parker. The at t network is helping First Responders connect with medical teams in near real time. Stay with me, mr. Parker. Saving time when it matters most. Stay with me, mrs. Parker. Thats the power of and. Im the one clocking in when youre clocking out. Sensing and automatically adjusting to your every move. Does your bed do that . Im the new sleep number 360 smart bed. Lets meet at a sleep number store. This beneful grain free is so healthy. Oh farmraised chicken thats good chicken hm . Here come the accents. Blueberries and pumpkin. Wow. And spinach that was my favorite bite so far. avo beneful grain free. Out with the grain, in with the farmraised chicken. Healthful. Flavorful. Beneful. We are out of time. My thanks to rick and james and that does it for our hour. Im nicolle wallace. And katie is in for chuck. I feel like you are so far away. Well be back together tomorrow. Thanks. And if it is monday, the secret memo may not be a secret for much longer. Tonight font lines deepen between the white house and the Justice Department as fbi Deputy Director Andrew Mccabe calls it quits. I can tell you none of this decision was made by that of the white house. Plus tracking the narrow path to a bipartisan deal on immigration. Because the republicans dont have the votes to get it done and the president s state of mind ahead of his first state of the union address. It is going to be good. This is mtp daily and it starts right now