environment that prosecutors handling cases involving the ex-president are facing right now. in the federal indictment of a man who allegedly made let's to fulton county district attorney fani wli and fulton county sheriff patrick la bat. arthur ray hanson ii was charged on monday for making threats to willis and la bat back in august, days before willis charged trump and 18 others in a sweeping rico case alleging a, quote, criminal enterprise that sought to overturn the r "new york times" reports this, quote, in a voicemail message for sheriff labatt mr. hanson threatened the sheriff to not take a mugshot of,quote, my president, donald trump, that's according to the indictment. i'm warning you right now adding that t sheriff to,quote, get hurt real ba he also left aoicemail message for ms. willis in which he threatened her and referred to the georgia case. ing to your car at night, when you're going into your house. tch everywhere that you're going mr. hanson said according to court records. quote, when you charge trump on that fourth indictment, anytime you are alone be looking over your shoulder. willis and labat were undeterred, trump was charged, fingerprinted, booked and he had his mugshot taken but the threats have not receded. take a listen to what willis told the fulton county board of commissioners earlier this month. >> and i want to talk about threats, okay? so you all don't get to hear all of them, unfortunately i have now damaged probably some of your customer service personnel who does get to hear a fraction of them because people are threatening me in that way, but i have in the last probably two months over 150 threats that have come into the office. they come in through the customer service line, they come in through my phone line, they come into the magistrate court, they come in through written letter, they come in through text messages. the demands that i am putting on my staff right now to try to track down and investigate the threats but also keep me alive, which has become a real concern for me, i have got to have people that are loyal to me and that my life means something to. >> it's happening all day, every day in this country. just one prosecutor there talking about 150 threats in about eight weeks during which the fulton county case along with jack smith's two federal cases against donald trump have been proceeding. all the while the ex-president has reacted to every twist and turn in all those cases with a steady, undiminished stream of violent rhetoric directed at the prosecutors, at the witnesses, at the judges, at the court staff. you name it. everyone involved. and that conduct keeps happening despite a gag order put back in place by judge chutkan. trump today slamming jack smith and fani willis as, quote, radical left thugs. incessant violent rhetoric of one donald trump and his supporters posing a stress test for our very system of justice is where we begin today with some of our favorite experts and friends. former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi frank is here plus tim hafey is back and the former chairman of the rnc michael steele is here. michael steele, i'm going to start with you today. this ushering in of a permission structure for political violence is something that every elected republican in washington just about has been complicit in by not condemning the very first invocations of violence and enthusiasm for violence that trump uttered as a candidate in 2015 and 2016. i know that's ancient history but you know from the violence that has occurred that the permission structure and the activating to go to washington on january 6, it happens in realtime. the threats against judge chutkan for which there was an arrest earlier this fall and in this case for da fani willis and sheriff labat they're ongoing, they're on trump's social media feed and trump's podiums at his events in realtime. the environment could improve at any moment should republicans choose to improve it and they don't. why? >> because they like it. they're okay with it. it fuels the energy around the base that, you know, allows them to, you know, put $100 every month on their credit card, that will be there when it's time to turn out the vote. this is not about the rule of law and the structures of institutions like the department of justice or even our local prosecutors and police departments. this is about how we politicize everything in order to get what we want. how we dehumanize individuals and threaten them to get what we want because i'm aggrieved, input upon, i'm disappointed, i'm made, i'm angry. and when the political leadership stokes those flames, this is what you get, the random calls, the 150 calls into the prosecutor's office saying you don't look over your shoulder because there is no one to say don't do that. there are consequences for that behavior. there are political and legal consequences for that behavior. so even when the legal system in the case of ms. willis responds and brings charges, there's political silence. there's -- you would think that would give these so-called leaders cover to then stand up and go, oh, yeah, no, we don't want to do that. we shouldn't be threatening our prosecutors. because the flip side of this coin is it comes for you, too, at some point. >> right. >> and you somehow think that because you're standing so close to the disease that you're not going to catch it. well, you will. you know, it's going to come for you, too. and so it's not surprising to see where we are right now, nicolle, with this, that our prosecutors, our election officials, our law enforcement officials are on their own when it comes to their -- to their protection and to their ability to do their jobs because at least in one party that party has put a target on their backs. >> you know, frank, i know that you've sort of helped educate and illuminate how you protect people targeted by someone with a size megaphone that trump has and it's about, i guess, staying left of boom, right, you try to stay ahead of the threat before they're actualized, but in a domestic context that hasn't worked. i mean, january 6 happens just by chatter and threats and very public incitement of an insurrection, of exactly what happens. we live in a post-january 6 world and it feels like we haven't made any adjustments or calibrations. >> yeah, this is worth noting because, look, despite the message and the message is clear that if you are behind these threats 150 at least just for fani willis, you're going to jail. the federal government is going to put its force behind that investigation, as they did with the woman in texas who left threatening voice mails for judge chutkan, as they did when the fbi attempted to arrest the man in provo, utah, who threatened prosecutors and president joe biden and was forced to use deadly force when he reportedly swung a weapon toward the arresting agents. now as has been done with the man in alabama. this man in alabama and 150 other people apparently have said, yeah, that's okay. i get the fbi is taking me away in handcuffs, but i'm going to do it anyway. so we have to ask ourselves why. i say this is a deep, deep level of radicalization. this is the kind of radicalization that you get when people have a devout religious fervor that they're willing to martyr themselves for, now this has turned on its side and it's turned onto our justice system and the rule of law. there's nothing about valid legal, illegal threats, i should say, unlawful threats, interstate communication of a threat that is free speech. so i don't want to hear it from anyone who is saying, you know, they're arresting people for free speech. they're arresting people because a prosecutor has looked at the case and says this matches the statutory elements of interstate communication of a threat. now, we will figure that out in court, but this isn't looking good based on just what we know from this case. so when you have people willing to die, the guy in utah, the guy who went into the fbi cincinnati field office, you have people willing to go to federal prison, destroy their lives, their careers and their families for essentially one man and the diluted believe that somehow society is falling apart and we have to take back democracy, this is where we are. i wish i had the solution, i wish i had the button to press to say, oh, this is how we're going to get out of this, but right now it's looking -- it's looking like this is going to continue, despite the threat of jail, federal prison and ruinination people are doing this. >> frank used the word extremism and one of the theories of counter extremism is to counter the extremist threat within the movement. it seems like that may have been one of the strategies behind the compelling testimony of trump supporter and insurrectionist steven ayers. >> i was hanging on every word. everything he was putting out i was following. if i was doing it hundreds of millions of other people are doing it or maybe even still doing it. it's like he just said about that, you know, you have people still following doing that, who knows what the next election could come out, you know, it could end up being down the same path we are right now, i mean, you just don't know. >> he goes on to -- you and the committee members press him about whether he believed the lies at the time and he did. whether he believes them now and he says not really. counterextremism is really, really, really hard. >> yeah. >> and it's like that, right, it's one person at a time and even that one person, he's pretty sure he doesn't believe the lies anymore but in his own words there, who knows what the next election could come out, you know, could end up being down the same path we are on right now, i mean, we just don't know. >> yeah, stephen ayres brings together so many of the themes that we developed, that's why we called him as a hearing witness. he is a carpenter in erie, pennsylvania, he works hard, has a young daughter. he was surprised when president trump lost the election so he started reading on facebook and on social media platforms about the election. pretty soon because of his engagement with the platform, liking or following certain articles, more and more provocative sort of anti-election fraud content, and he is invited to join these affinity groups in which other people share these theories. then he hears the president say come to washington on january 6 it will be wild so he goes. before he knows it he doesn't have any idea what's going on at the capitol, he thinks he's going for a speech. he follows the president's invitation to go to the capitol and he is inside the capitol. now, he is not a victim, right? people are responsible for sifting the information that they get, the misinformation that they get, but it knows, nicolle, just how as you said pervasive and how difficult it is to combat this. there are a lot of people in this country that don't trust you, that don't trust me or anybody on this network, that don't trust "the new york times." they don't trust the messenger. so the facts that are so clearly established, they don't trust government, right? that is where the disconnect is. they still have this misguided belief that the election was stolen and as frank said, that converts into this almost sort of religious-like fervor to fight back against tyranny. i think the way you combat it is by calling it out, by holding people accountable, but there is a lag. the criminal justice system takes time to respond, right? this charge is based on some threats that occurred a little while ago, there is now a pending trial but the case will take time to resolve. the criminal justice system isn't proactive, it's reactive, it isn't dwrg to prophylactically fix this. hopefully in time holding people accountable has a deterrent effect but it takes time. >> michael steele, i have covered the filings by jack smith to put in place a gag order in the chutkan case and i have read all the paper and covered the civil trial and i've watched the president as closely as i did at any point in his presidency and i wonder if it's not crazy to wonder if he's trying to recreate the events of january 6 or based on all of the evidence and testimony developed by tim hafey and the members and all the investigators, he was deeply sated, deeply rewarded by what he saw on january 6. that he wanted stephen ayres there, he wanted them in the building. he was not upset that kevin mccarthy was scared. he was not upset that mike pence had to run for his life. he was not upset that they wanted to hang mike pence. he was deeply stimulated and excited by the violence. i wonder what you think his calculation is on whether violating these gag orders lands him in jail is a good thing or bad thing for him. >> you put your finger on two very important words there that describe everything about trump, stimulated and excited. it is a stimulant, it is a narcotic for him that people show him undying, unfettered, totally looked in fealty. it is afrodesiac. when someone doesn't give him that what is his reaction? it's personal. he takes it personally and he leans into it. you saw it in his going after bill barr and cohen and others who decided that, you know, protecting me is better for me than protecting you. so that's what he got all the lead up to january 6. it is what he continues to get as he's looking at polling showing that his numbers don't shrink on each indictment, it increases. that fealty and loyalty locks in and it is the juice that propels him. so when you are talking about, you know, yeah, we saw the scenes of him sitting in the courtroom last week, you know, angered and he storms out. well, do you know what, part of that is, yeah, he's pissed off because he can't control it, but the other side of his brain kicks in and goes, good reality tv, baby. they're going to see me come out and i'm still going to be the strong angry former president. i'm the guy that they're coming after and i'm showing that i'm determined to fight this. and that further stimulates that base, it further engenders their loyalty and fealty to him. he does not give a damn about you. you're being punked. you're being used every day for his particular pleasure, to save his behind. your butt is going to jail, right? now, he's using you to avoid that, to drag the system out, to push back on the work that timothy and the january 6th committee had done, to go after the colleagues of frank figliuzzi who are still in law enforcement trying to serve justice. so he's using all of those instruments to promote himself and push no matter how bad it seems to the rest of us who normally would just collapse under the weight of 91 indictments, donald trump gets a you know what from it. he's charged from it. the thing that probably bothers him more than all these other cases, nicolle, is the money deal, right? where they could come in and take $250 million plus from him, but even there there's the fealty that's going to come from that when that moment comes, that verdict comes down and he's handed a judgment, his numbers won't go down, they will just get stronger. >> you know, frank, i agree with all of michael steele's analysis and i want to turn it back to us, right? that is who he is and i think it's taken a while to really get that, but that is exactly who he is. what do we do in response? here is something that happened in a courtroom today, this is the 14th amendment case in colo >> how would extremists have understood trump's repeated calls to fight in that speech? >> a call violence. >> why? >> it's within far-right extremist culture, fighting is meant to be taken literally. >> now, i show that because the courts and the legal system is still trying to adjudicate his conduct from three years ago and he's barreling toward the republican nomination for the next presidential election. how do we respond as a country? >> our court system has never faced anything of this complexity and magnitude dealing with a president, now former president, and a significant portion of our population acting in a cult-like fashion. i keep, unfortunately, having to raise the cult factor here because you mentioned, you know, he needs on the violence. people who study cults use a phrase called forcing the end. you saw it with jim jones in guyana and passing out the poisoned kool-aid when he felt like the end was near, the outcome he wanted wasn't going to happen. you saw it with david karesh where they literally burned the place now. figuratively trump is trying to burn the place down meaning our structure and form of government. you also said in the context of him feeding on all of this he has already planted the seed saying i'm prepared to go to jail. that's a recent development for him. he disgrace flee compared himself to nelson mandella claiming he is going to be a political prisoner. this will further fuel the cult to act out violently when things don't happen that they think and promise themselves is going to happen like a legitimate win in an election. if we view it as a cult we have to treat it that way and we have to get into this counter radicalization and number one, yes, there needs to be consequences. consequences don't seem to be working very well. secondly, people inside the cult have to want out and you will remember there were people in waco who were allowed to leave. yeah, i want out. the kids went out, some women went out. we've got to work that opportunity. but yet we don't hear anyone on the right, any leadership in the house or senate on the right saying, yeah, let's all get out of here. i condemn this. it's not happening. and until that happens we're going to be in this mess. >> i want to -- there's about -- liz cheney, adam kinzinger, maybe mitt romney, all but one are out of government. i want to press all three of you of what we do and how we talk about him and ask you all to stick around through a break. when we come back we will have much more on all of this, including trump's latest attempt to try to stay on the ballot not just in colorado but in michigan. we will tell you about the legal back and forth there. plus, the new speaker of the house making his first big legislative move by trying to dismantle the rare, largely bipartisan good will of providing aid for israel in the wake of a terrorist attack. how he's trying to do that by picking a fight with president joe biden and the white house and protecting the ultra rich in the process. the maga right's latest tone deaf move on capitol hill. later in the broadcast the fbi director was out today with a brand-new very public chilling and blunt warning for all of us that the israel gaza war could inspire extremists at home to carry out attacks on americans going out about their daily lives. more on that and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere 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