Transcripts For MSNBCW Dateline Extra 20190610 : comparemela

Photographer. But were they really innocent . I didnt do it. Did you have any kind of vendetta against steven avery . Absolutely not. A lead investigator defends his interrogation, which led to a conviction overturned. This was seen by many. Those officers wanted that information in the worst way. They got it in the worst way. The prosecutor fights back with an explosive book. Youre going the hear the other side of the story. And the promise from Steven Averys highpowered attorney. Do you think you have new evidence that could free steven avery . We do. Return to Manitowoc County. Hello and welcome to dateline extra. Im craig melvin. Photographer teresa was out on a work assignment when suddenly she vanished. The investigation into her disappearance marked the beginning of what became a hotly contested murder case against steven avery and Brendan Dassey. Dateline covered the story and disturbing allegations of police corruption. Then the investigators fought back. Two sides, one truth. Who will you believe . Here is andrea canning. The mystery of what happened here in the sprawling fields of rural wisconsin has captivated the country. We the jury find the defendant steven a. Avery guilty. Reporter in 2015, the Netflix Series making a murderer convinced many viewers that steven avery and Brendan Dassey, both convicted of murder had been railroaded by Law Enforcement. Free steven avery its a case dateline has been following more than a decade, as their lawyers worked tirelessly to free them from prison, we pose the questions everyones been asking to two men who helped put avery and dassey behind bars. Why would steven avery do this . Thats a great question. We speak with former prosecutor ken kratz, who has written a book that reveals his provocative theory, that steven avery made himself a murderer. Stephen avery started planning this event on the very first day he went to prison. And we talk with Tom Fassbender, a lead investigator in the case who has come under fire for this controversial interrogation. Youve really stayed silent through this firestorm. Why you sitting here today . I finally realized that someone needed to speak out, to bring forward the truth of what happened. So what did happen here . Our story begins with the woman at the heart of this case. A 25yearold photographer from wisconsin named Teresa Halbach. She just loved being behind the camera. Kim and teresa became fast friends in college. Kim says teresa had a special way with her subjects. She could make them smile. That was one thing that i think she really loved to do is just make other people smile. Reporter the two stayed in touch after graduation as they launched their careers. But that would change suddenly on october 31st, 2005. Kim caught a story on the local news. Teresa was missing. Investigators say the 25yearold photographer was on assignment for autotrader magazine when she disappeared. I just kind of dropped knowing it was somebody i knew. Reporter what do you do at that moment . I felt helpless. You want to try to deny it and you want to try to get in touch with her. Reporter did you try to call her . I did try to text her. Reporter no response . No response. Reporter Wisconsin Police put on a massive search, bolstered by volunteers. After two days, a big break. We have found a rav 4. They found teresas vehicle on the avery salvage yard. Reporter tom pass bender, then an agent with the wisconsin criminal investigation hustled over to this land in Manitowoc County, home to the mechanic steven avery. Had you heard his name before . Only through the media. Reporter steven avery was a big story. He had been convicted of rape in 1985, but 18 years later, dna evidence exonerated him, and he was freed, a wrongfully convicted man welcomed back into society with open arms, and looking for justice of his own. Oh, steve were you aware he had filed the lawsuit against the local Sheriffs Department . Yes, i heard that. Reporter avery hoped winning the 36 million lawsuit would help him get back on his feet. He had an opportunity to make something of his life. It appeared he was headed in that direction. Reporter now, two years after his release from prison, this poster boy for Wrongful Convictions was back in the news, and not in a good way. I hope she comes back, so she could go back to her family. Reporter when fassbender arrived at the site, he realized teresa had a date to take photos of this van averys sister was selling. Teresa had left a message this morning. Hello, this is teresa with autotrader magazine. Im the photographer. Just giving you a call to let you know that i can come out here today, in the afternoon. It will be around 2 00. Reporter steven avery confirmed to investigators that teresa had been on the property that day and left around 2 00 p. M. Avery didnt tell them much more. But for investigators, a dark tale started emerging from the physical evidence, especially when they made a gruesome discovery in the back of teresas suv. We find teresas blood in the vehicle, primarily in the cargo area of the rav4. And in the front, more blood. There was blood on some of the upholstery and a very telling swipe of blood near the ignition switch of the vehicle. Tests showed that blood was Steven Averys, taking him from person of interest to prime suspect. You believe you can explain the blood from steven avery . Well, yes, absolutely. Steven avery had a cut on his right hand, middle finger that was freshly scabbed over. If you took that key and put it in that ignition switch, it lined up perfectly with a contact pattern swipe. How did he explain that cut . Im not sure i remember. I think he claimed he cut in the junkyard doing work on vehicles fassbender feared the worst, and after four days of searching, his team found something disturbing in a fire pit near averys trailer. What appeared to be bone fragments. Human bones. Most interesting because family members told investigators steven avery built a bonfire hours after teresa had been at the yard that day. It was a huge bonfire, flames as high as the roof on the edge of the roof on the garage. Was it all making sense to you . Looking at the whole picture, absolutely. And that picture came into sharper focus when fassbenders team found another clue, teresas key in averys bedroom. The toyota key, with the fob. Connector to it. This is huge. Yes, its huge. Especially when the crime lab later found averys dna on it. It would become a highly controversial clue in this case. The evidence was stacking up against steven avery, and fassbender says that rav4 would later tell investigators one last thing. We had tested the hood latch and found dna matching steven on the hood latch. Fassbender believed avery had some explaining to do. So nine days after teresas disappearance, he and his partner, mark wiegert brought avery in for an interview. Dateline filed a freedom of information request to obtain the video. You know the key is there because you put the key there. Thats the only way the key gets there. No. Yes, steve, yes. Avery was defiant and even claims cops were framing him, planting evidence. The cops have evidence. Fassbender and wiegert werent buying it and placed him under arrest. I didnt do it. Somebodys doing a good job on me. Investigators were convinced they had their man. Still, they didnt know how or why teresa had been killed. Coming up shackles, handcuffs, strange behavior. Teresas creeped out. Could something in his past have led him to murder . When dateline continues. Why would steven avery do this . We know he is a psychopath. We know that he has do we know that . When return to Manitowoc County continues. Ues. D ice mint. Layered with flavor. Its the first and only coated nicotine lozenge. For an amazing taste. That outlasts your craving. New nicorette ice mint. You wouldnt accept an incomplete job from any one else. Why accept it from your allergy pills . Flonase sensimist relieves all your worst symptoms, including nasal congestion, which most pills dont. And all from a gentle mist you can barely feel. Flonase sensimist. You can barely feel. At comcast, we didnt build the nations largest gigspeed network just to make businesses run faster. We built it to help them go beyond. Because beyond risk. Welcome to the neighborhood, guys. There is reward. Beyond work and life. Who else could he be . There is the moment. Beyond technology. There is human ingenuity. Every day, comcast business is helping businesses go beyond the expected, to do the extraordinary. Take your business beyond. Welcome back. Steven avery had within exonerated from a wrongle rape conviction and was trying to make something out of his life. Then investigators uncovered other dna evidence linking him to the meurder of 25yearold Teresa Halbach. Now detectives were about to interview averys nephew, Brendan Dassey. The grisly details he would share would send the case into overdrive. Once again, andrea canning. Reporter in january 2006, steven avery pleaded not guilty to the murder of Teresa Halbach, and special prosecutor ken kratz began building his case. He chronicles it all in his book, avery. What do you feel people know the least about in this case . The book is about the case against steven avery that is setting forth a better representation of what the real evidence was. Better, he says, than the way the evidence was presented in making a murderer. In his book, kratz laid out his complete theory of the case with new details hed never shared before. For one thing, kratz told dateline he believes steven avery set his sights on Teresa Halbach in the weeks leading up to her murder. As we move closer to october 31st, we see stevens behavior changing. Reporter as kratz got autotraders records, he learned teresa had actually made five earlier visits to the avery salvage yard to take photo, some at Steven Averys request. He starts making calls directly to Teresa Halbach rather than going through autotrader. And kratz determined on the day before teresas visits, avery purchased these shackles and handcuffs. When teresa arrived. He answered the door that day wearing a small white towel, and teresa we know is creeped out by that behavior. She tells friends and coworkers about that. Kratz believe that shows signs avery had a sexual obsession with teresa that led to her murder. Why would avery do this, on the verge of getting this great windfall, millions of dollars. Thats a great question. We dont know. We know he is a psychopath. Do we know that . Lets say i allege that, okay. I believe that deep down. Kratz discovered more in averys past. 18 years before teresas murder, avery wrote this letter to his estranged wife from prison saying i will kill you. And a former fiancee told police he had physically abused her. And kratz says he learned something even more disturbing. This 2006 Police Report shows a teenaged girl accused avery of raping her a year after his release from prison. It all came together for kratz. He believes avery had developed a deep resentment of women, which had started with his Wrongful Conviction and had only grown over the years. He has no remorse for his behavior, feels incredibly entitled. But as he continued to investigate the case, kratz had a problem. You still didnt know how she was killed, where she was killed. Was that bothering you . Yes. But sometimes you have what you have. It was all coming together in bit bits and pieces. Reporter he kept digging until they got a big lead. Why dont you have a seat, brennan. Reporter in march, Tom Fassbender and his partner spoke with averys 16yearold nephew, Brendan Dassey in a series of now highly scrutinized interviews. What was your First Impression of Brendan Dassey . A shy kid. Introverted. But once he opened up, the details he revealed would stun investigators. What else did he do to her . Raped her. Did he tell you that . Fassbender says dassey described a brutal scene. On that halloween afternoon, his uncle asked him to come over to his trailer. Dassey said they each sexually assaulted teresa in averys bedroom. And avery later shot her in his garage, burning her body in the bonfire. Its a gamechanger. He told us stuff we werent really aware of, like teresa was shot in the garage and had died there. And after speaking about dassey, fassbender had his team return to the avery property once more. And they found this in his garage, a bullet fragment. And that was missed the first time around. Well, i guess i could say it was missed. But youre talking about a bullet fragment, looks like a piece of dirt probably. And it was tested . It was tested. Yes, teresas dna was on that bullet. And the bullet was shot from stevens rifle, the one above his bed. And do you now believe that teresa was shot in that garage . Yes. One strange thing, though, when they searched the garage for blood, they never found a drop. How could you clean up all that blood . Well, he did it to the best of his ability, i guess. Bleach, paint thinner. That cleans up blood. Teresas friend, kim, said when she heard the details about teresas final moments, she was heartbreak. I remember crying and just hoping she was who she was and fought because she was a very strong person. Ken kratz charged Brendan Dassey as a coconspirator in her murder. I intend to hold each of these defendants accountable for the rape, the torture, and the murder of Teresa Halbach. But not so fast. Dassey recanted his statements. Just before averys trial, the judge dismissed the rape charge against him and didnt allow any of those allegations about averys treatment of women, saying they didnt prove anything about teresas murder. And avery was never charged with assaulting his exfiancee or with raping the teen. To this day, he denies all the allegations. And those handcuffs and shackles, no evidence ever linked them to teresa. Still, in the spring of 2007, juries in separate trials convicted both dassey and avery of murdering teresa. They were each sentenced to life in prison. You are probably the most dangerous individual ever to set foot in this courtroom. It seemed like the avery saga had ended. But eight years later, making a murderer would put fassbender, kratz, and their entire team in the hot seat. Coming up did they plant evidence . Sure, they did. Was steven avery framed . Is it possible that that blood could have been planted . A lead investigator answers allegations. Did you have any kind of vendetta against steven avery . Absolutely not. When return to Manitowoc County continues. To Manitowoc County continues. Every innovation, every feeling. A product of mastery. Lease the 2019 es 350 for 379 month for 36 months. Experience amazing at your lexus dealer. But allstate actually helps you drive safely. With drivewise. It lets you know when you go too fast. And brake too hard. With feedback to help you drive safer. Giving you the power to actually lower your cost. Unfortunately, it cant do anything about that. Now that you know the truth. Are you in good hands . Intand ux f sport,rst of its kind lexus ux also available in hybrid allwheel drive. Lease the 2019 ux 200 for 329 month for 36 months. Experience amazing at your lexus dealer. In december 2015, netflix released making a murderer and it ignited a bonfire over the convictions of avery and dassey. Now many viewers believe the claims avery had been making all along, that he was framed by Law Enforcement. Who would want to set you up in Something Like this . The only thing i can think of it Manitowoc County with the money, so they didnt have to pay nothing out. Did they plant evidence . Sure they did. Kim du cott is averys cousin. She said she predicted something bad might happen to him after he was exonerated in the rape case. Remember, he had recently filed a lawsuit against his local Sheriffs Department for his Wrongful Conviction. I did tell him, manitowoc wasnt done with him. Why did you think they werent done with him . Something told me they werent going to hand steve avery 36 million or any kind of money, that they were going to be watching him and look what happened. Avery ended up settling that lawsuit for four 000 before his trial. The county did not acknowledge any wrongdoing. He used the money to hire his defense attorneys, dean strang, and jerry butting. We knew going in it was going to be a difficult defense. We spoke to butting in early 2016. We had a very tough defense in this case, because nobody wants to try and use as a defense that the police deliberately tried to plant evidence or frame somebody. It goes against society. Its very difficult. Those people are there to help us. Theyre the police. Right. But its where we thought the evidence pointed. Averys attorneys believed the fact that officers from the county he was suing were part of the search, made for a huge conflict of interest and for possible mischief at the crime scene. What i can say from the evidence ive looked at, i think he was innocent, is innocent. Preparing for trial, butting learned about a vial of averys blood left over from his overturned rape conviction which had been sitting in the Manitowoc County clerks office. And saw that there was still a styrofoam box that had been slit open with evidence tape. Thats really the big aha moment . Yeah, it was. And for many viewers, it was the aha moment in making a murderer. A little tiny hole. The attorneys theorize that someone could have poked a hole in that vial and spread averys blood inside teresas suv. As for teresas car key . Your theory is that the key was planted in the residence . That is where we thought the evidence was pointing. By the police . By someone. It was not found in six or seven earlier entries to the trailer. Were talking about a trailer. It didnt add up. Colead investigator Steven Averys<\/a> highpowered attorney. Do you think you have new evidence that could free steven avery . We do. Return to Manitowoc County<\/a>. Hello and welcome to dateline extra. Im craig melvin. Photographer teresa was out on a work assignment when suddenly she vanished. The investigation into her disappearance marked the beginning of what became a hotly contested murder case against steven avery and Brendan Dassey<\/a>. Dateline covered the story and disturbing allegations of police corruption. Then the investigators fought back. Two sides, one truth. Who will you believe . Here is andrea canning. The mystery of what happened here in the sprawling fields of rural wisconsin has captivated the country. We the jury find the defendant steven a. Avery guilty. Reporter in 2015, the Netflix Series<\/a> making a murderer convinced many viewers that steven avery and Brendan Dassey<\/a>, both convicted of murder had been railroaded by Law Enforcement<\/a>. Free steven avery its a case dateline has been following more than a decade, as their lawyers worked tirelessly to free them from prison, we pose the questions everyones been asking to two men who helped put avery and dassey behind bars. Why would steven avery do this . Thats a great question. We speak with former prosecutor ken kratz, who has written a book that reveals his provocative theory, that steven avery made himself a murderer. Stephen avery started planning this event on the very first day he went to prison. And we talk with Tom Fassbender<\/a>, a lead investigator in the case who has come under fire for this controversial interrogation. Youve really stayed silent through this firestorm. Why you sitting here today . I finally realized that someone needed to speak out, to bring forward the truth of what happened. So what did happen here . Our story begins with the woman at the heart of this case. A 25yearold photographer from wisconsin named Teresa Halbach<\/a>. She just loved being behind the camera. Kim and teresa became fast friends in college. Kim says teresa had a special way with her subjects. She could make them smile. That was one thing that i think she really loved to do is just make other people smile. Reporter the two stayed in touch after graduation as they launched their careers. But that would change suddenly on october 31st, 2005. Kim caught a story on the local news. Teresa was missing. Investigators say the 25yearold photographer was on assignment for autotrader magazine when she disappeared. I just kind of dropped knowing it was somebody i knew. Reporter what do you do at that moment . I felt helpless. You want to try to deny it and you want to try to get in touch with her. Reporter did you try to call her . I did try to text her. Reporter no response . No response. Reporter Wisconsin Police<\/a> put on a massive search, bolstered by volunteers. After two days, a big break. We have found a rav 4. They found teresas vehicle on the avery salvage yard. Reporter tom pass bender, then an agent with the wisconsin criminal investigation hustled over to this land in Manitowoc County<\/a>, home to the mechanic steven avery. Had you heard his name before . Only through the media. Reporter steven avery was a big story. He had been convicted of rape in 1985, but 18 years later, dna evidence exonerated him, and he was freed, a wrongfully convicted man welcomed back into society with open arms, and looking for justice of his own. Oh, steve were you aware he had filed the lawsuit against the local Sheriffs Department<\/a> . Yes, i heard that. Reporter avery hoped winning the 36 million lawsuit would help him get back on his feet. He had an opportunity to make something of his life. It appeared he was headed in that direction. Reporter now, two years after his release from prison, this poster boy for Wrongful Conviction<\/a>s was back in the news, and not in a good way. I hope she comes back, so she could go back to her family. Reporter when fassbender arrived at the site, he realized teresa had a date to take photos of this van averys sister was selling. Teresa had left a message this morning. Hello, this is teresa with autotrader magazine. Im the photographer. Just giving you a call to let you know that i can come out here today, in the afternoon. It will be around 2 00. Reporter steven avery confirmed to investigators that teresa had been on the property that day and left around 2 00 p. M. Avery didnt tell them much more. But for investigators, a dark tale started emerging from the physical evidence, especially when they made a gruesome discovery in the back of teresas suv. We find teresas blood in the vehicle, primarily in the cargo area of the rav4. And in the front, more blood. There was blood on some of the upholstery and a very telling swipe of blood near the ignition switch of the vehicle. Tests showed that blood was Steven Averys<\/a>, taking him from person of interest to prime suspect. You believe you can explain the blood from steven avery . Well, yes, absolutely. Steven avery had a cut on his right hand, middle finger that was freshly scabbed over. If you took that key and put it in that ignition switch, it lined up perfectly with a contact pattern swipe. How did he explain that cut . Im not sure i remember. I think he claimed he cut in the junkyard doing work on vehicles fassbender feared the worst, and after four days of searching, his team found something disturbing in a fire pit near averys trailer. What appeared to be bone fragments. Human bones. Most interesting because family members told investigators steven avery built a bonfire hours after teresa had been at the yard that day. It was a huge bonfire, flames as high as the roof on the edge of the roof on the garage. Was it all making sense to you . Looking at the whole picture, absolutely. And that picture came into sharper focus when fassbenders team found another clue, teresas key in averys bedroom. The toyota key, with the fob. Connector to it. This is huge. Yes, its huge. Especially when the crime lab later found averys dna on it. It would become a highly controversial clue in this case. The evidence was stacking up against steven avery, and fassbender says that rav4 would later tell investigators one last thing. We had tested the hood latch and found dna matching steven on the hood latch. Fassbender believed avery had some explaining to do. So nine days after teresas disappearance, he and his partner, mark wiegert brought avery in for an interview. Dateline filed a freedom of information request to obtain the video. You know the key is there because you put the key there. Thats the only way the key gets there. No. Yes, steve, yes. Avery was defiant and even claims cops were framing him, planting evidence. The cops have evidence. Fassbender and wiegert werent buying it and placed him under arrest. I didnt do it. Somebodys doing a good job on me. Investigators were convinced they had their man. Still, they didnt know how or why teresa had been killed. Coming up shackles, handcuffs, strange behavior. Teresas creeped out. Could something in his past have led him to murder . When dateline continues. Why would steven avery do this . We know he is a psychopath. We know that he has do we know that . When return to Manitowoc County<\/a> continues. Ues. D ice mint. Layered with flavor. Its the first and only coated nicotine lozenge. For an amazing taste. That outlasts your craving. New nicorette ice mint. You wouldnt accept an incomplete job from any one else. Why accept it from your allergy pills . Flonase sensimist relieves all your worst symptoms, including nasal congestion, which most pills dont. And all from a gentle mist you can barely feel. Flonase sensimist. You can barely feel. At comcast, we didnt build the nations largest gigspeed network just to make businesses run faster. We built it to help them go beyond. Because beyond risk. Welcome to the neighborhood, guys. There is reward. Beyond work and life. Who else could he be . There is the moment. Beyond technology. There is human ingenuity. Every day, comcast business is helping businesses go beyond the expected, to do the extraordinary. Take your business beyond. Welcome back. Steven avery had within exonerated from a wrongle rape conviction and was trying to make something out of his life. Then investigators uncovered other dna evidence linking him to the meurder of 25yearold Teresa Halbach<\/a>. Now detectives were about to interview averys nephew, Brendan Dassey<\/a>. The grisly details he would share would send the case into overdrive. Once again, andrea canning. Reporter in january 2006, steven avery pleaded not guilty to the murder of Teresa Halbach<\/a>, and special prosecutor ken kratz began building his case. He chronicles it all in his book, avery. What do you feel people know the least about in this case . The book is about the case against steven avery that is setting forth a better representation of what the real evidence was. Better, he says, than the way the evidence was presented in making a murderer. In his book, kratz laid out his complete theory of the case with new details hed never shared before. For one thing, kratz told dateline he believes steven avery set his sights on Teresa Halbach<\/a> in the weeks leading up to her murder. As we move closer to october 31st, we see stevens behavior changing. Reporter as kratz got autotraders records, he learned teresa had actually made five earlier visits to the avery salvage yard to take photo, some at Steven Averys<\/a> request. He starts making calls directly to Teresa Halbach<\/a> rather than going through autotrader. And kratz determined on the day before teresas visits, avery purchased these shackles and handcuffs. When teresa arrived. He answered the door that day wearing a small white towel, and teresa we know is creeped out by that behavior. She tells friends and coworkers about that. Kratz believe that shows signs avery had a sexual obsession with teresa that led to her murder. Why would avery do this, on the verge of getting this great windfall, millions of dollars. Thats a great question. We dont know. We know he is a psychopath. Do we know that . Lets say i allege that, okay. I believe that deep down. Kratz discovered more in averys past. 18 years before teresas murder, avery wrote this letter to his estranged wife from prison saying i will kill you. And a former fiancee told police he had physically abused her. And kratz says he learned something even more disturbing. This 2006 Police Report<\/a> shows a teenaged girl accused avery of raping her a year after his release from prison. It all came together for kratz. He believes avery had developed a deep resentment of women, which had started with his Wrongful Conviction<\/a> and had only grown over the years. He has no remorse for his behavior, feels incredibly entitled. But as he continued to investigate the case, kratz had a problem. You still didnt know how she was killed, where she was killed. Was that bothering you . Yes. But sometimes you have what you have. It was all coming together in bit bits and pieces. Reporter he kept digging until they got a big lead. Why dont you have a seat, brennan. Reporter in march, Tom Fassbender<\/a> and his partner spoke with averys 16yearold nephew, Brendan Dassey<\/a> in a series of now highly scrutinized interviews. What was your First Impression<\/a> of Brendan Dassey<\/a> . A shy kid. Introverted. But once he opened up, the details he revealed would stun investigators. What else did he do to her . Raped her. Did he tell you that . Fassbender says dassey described a brutal scene. On that halloween afternoon, his uncle asked him to come over to his trailer. Dassey said they each sexually assaulted teresa in averys bedroom. And avery later shot her in his garage, burning her body in the bonfire. Its a gamechanger. He told us stuff we werent really aware of, like teresa was shot in the garage and had died there. And after speaking about dassey, fassbender had his team return to the avery property once more. And they found this in his garage, a bullet fragment. And that was missed the first time around. Well, i guess i could say it was missed. But youre talking about a bullet fragment, looks like a piece of dirt probably. And it was tested . It was tested. Yes, teresas dna was on that bullet. And the bullet was shot from stevens rifle, the one above his bed. And do you now believe that teresa was shot in that garage . Yes. One strange thing, though, when they searched the garage for blood, they never found a drop. How could you clean up all that blood . Well, he did it to the best of his ability, i guess. Bleach, paint thinner. That cleans up blood. Teresas friend, kim, said when she heard the details about teresas final moments, she was heartbreak. I remember crying and just hoping she was who she was and fought because she was a very strong person. Ken kratz charged Brendan Dassey<\/a> as a coconspirator in her murder. I intend to hold each of these defendants accountable for the rape, the torture, and the murder of Teresa Halbach<\/a>. But not so fast. Dassey recanted his statements. Just before averys trial, the judge dismissed the rape charge against him and didnt allow any of those allegations about averys treatment of women, saying they didnt prove anything about teresas murder. And avery was never charged with assaulting his exfiancee or with raping the teen. To this day, he denies all the allegations. And those handcuffs and shackles, no evidence ever linked them to teresa. Still, in the spring of 2007, juries in separate trials convicted both dassey and avery of murdering teresa. They were each sentenced to life in prison. You are probably the most dangerous individual ever to set foot in this courtroom. It seemed like the avery saga had ended. But eight years later, making a murderer would put fassbender, kratz, and their entire team in the hot seat. Coming up did they plant evidence . Sure, they did. Was steven avery framed . Is it possible that that blood could have been planted . A lead investigator answers allegations. Did you have any kind of vendetta against steven avery . Absolutely not. When return to Manitowoc County<\/a> continues. To Manitowoc County<\/a> continues. Every innovation, every feeling. A product of mastery. Lease the 2019 es 350 for 379 month for 36 months. Experience amazing at your lexus dealer. But allstate actually helps you drive safely. With drivewise. It lets you know when you go too fast. And brake too hard. With feedback to help you drive safer. Giving you the power to actually lower your cost. Unfortunately, it cant do anything about that. Now that you know the truth. Are you in good hands . Intand ux f sport,rst of its kind lexus ux also available in hybrid allwheel drive. Lease the 2019 ux 200 for 329 month for 36 months. Experience amazing at your lexus dealer. In december 2015, netflix released making a murderer and it ignited a bonfire over the convictions of avery and dassey. Now many viewers believe the claims avery had been making all along, that he was framed by Law Enforcement<\/a>. Who would want to set you up in Something Like<\/a> this . The only thing i can think of it Manitowoc County<\/a> with the money, so they didnt have to pay nothing out. Did they plant evidence . Sure they did. Kim du cott is averys cousin. She said she predicted something bad might happen to him after he was exonerated in the rape case. Remember, he had recently filed a lawsuit against his local Sheriffs Department<\/a> for his Wrongful Conviction<\/a>. I did tell him, manitowoc wasnt done with him. Why did you think they werent done with him . Something told me they werent going to hand steve avery 36 million or any kind of money, that they were going to be watching him and look what happened. Avery ended up settling that lawsuit for four 000 before his trial. The county did not acknowledge any wrongdoing. He used the money to hire his defense attorneys, dean strang, and jerry butting. We knew going in it was going to be a difficult defense. We spoke to butting in early 2016. We had a very tough defense in this case, because nobody wants to try and use as a defense that the police deliberately tried to plant evidence or frame somebody. It goes against society. Its very difficult. Those people are there to help us. Theyre the police. Right. But its where we thought the evidence pointed. Averys attorneys believed the fact that officers from the county he was suing were part of the search, made for a huge conflict of interest and for possible mischief at the crime scene. What i can say from the evidence ive looked at, i think he was innocent, is innocent. Preparing for trial, butting learned about a vial of averys blood left over from his overturned rape conviction which had been sitting in the Manitowoc County<\/a> clerks office. And saw that there was still a styrofoam box that had been slit open with evidence tape. Thats really the big aha moment . Yeah, it was. And for many viewers, it was the aha moment in making a murderer. A little tiny hole. The attorneys theorize that someone could have poked a hole in that vial and spread averys blood inside teresas suv. As for teresas car key . Your theory is that the key was planted in the residence . That is where we thought the evidence was pointing. By the police . By someone. It was not found in six or seven earlier entries to the trailer. Were talking about a trailer. It didnt add up. Colead investigator Tom Fassbender<\/a> worked alongside the local county sheriffs deputies, but was employed by a different agency, the Wisconsin Department<\/a> of justice. This is the first time hes responded publicly to the accusations against him and his former Law Enforcement<\/a> colleagues. Did you have any kind of vendetta against steven avery . Absolutely not. I didnt know steven avery, didnt know his family. Never been there. Fassbender bristles at the idea the local investigators could have done anything unethical. The people that were there that i worked with were hardworking. They only wanted to do the right thing and to do this investigation the right way. Is it possible that that blood could have been planted . No. Everything, all the evidence says no. Fassbender notes that a chemical called edta had been used to preserve averys blood in the vial. And that at trial, tests showed no presence of edta averys blood found in the suv. It didnt match. No edta in the blood in the vehicle. Fassbenders argument, since that blood found in the vehicle didnt contain the chemical, it couldnt have come from the vial. And he notes that a nurse was prepared to testify she had made that hole in the vial as part of her usual routine when she drew blood from avery. So the fact that there was a hole in the top of the vial is normal. And regarding teresas car key, not found until the seventh search of averys trailer why was that key missed during the other searches . Primarily because of where it was located in a small bookcase that wasnt searched. And if it was, it was just kind of looked at. Why not do the thorough search earlier . I guess part of it is because we didnt lock and load on steven avery. We went in there, did that first search, but we had 12 more buildings and four more residences to search. So we had a lot to do. Still, it wasnt just when the key was found that has avery supporters skeptical. Its who found it. These two men. Lieutenant james lenk and Andrew Colburn<\/a> of the manitowoc Sheriffs Department<\/a>. It turned out they had just been deposed in averys lawsuit. Well, they were deposed, that we later found out. Do you think that maybe just them by nature, being with manitowoc that maybe they shouldnt have been in there at all, just to avoid all of this speculation . Its easy to arm chair quarterback and second guess. I think we would have done that maybe if we had the resources. But youre talking about a small, rural county, being assisted by another smaller rural county. You need resources. Steven avery says these guys had it out for me. That whole department was angry at me. This was the perfect opportunity for them to have access to my trailer, plant the key. I never absolutely saw that. Never saw that from anyone in Manitowoc County<\/a>. Fassbender says he believes a conspiracy to frame avery would have been virtually impossible to carry out. I could go on and on about the planting defense and how absurd it is, with the multiple agencies that we had in there. Im your friend right now. But it was that video of Brendan Dassey<\/a> which would really put fassbender at the center of the storm. Coming up those officers wanted that information in the worst way. They got it in the worst way. When return to Manitowoc County<\/a> continues. Ntinues. Whoa. Travis in it made it. Its amazing. Oh is that traviss app . Its pretty cool, isnt it . Theres two of them. Theyre multiplying. No, guys, its me. See, im real. Im real he thinks hes real. Geico. Over 75 years of savings and service. osamah cancer is. The ugliest disease mankind has ever faced. henry i thought it was unfair. When when you hear those words that you get diagnosed with cancer. osamah successfully treating it still remains one of the most enormous challenges facing us today. We realized that, if we developed the technology that could take 2dimensional patient imaging and convert it into 3dimensional holographic renderings, we could enable surgeons to dissect around the cancer so we can precisely remove it. When we first started, we felt like this might just not be possible because Computing Power<\/a> just wasnt there, but verizon 5g ultra wideband will give us the ability to do this. We wont rest until we see this technology being able to change lives. Im dara brown with the hours top stories. 19 out of 23 democratic president ial candidates spoke at the Iowa Democratic<\/a> party hall of fame celebration on sunday. Former Vice President<\/a> joe biden wasnt in attendance. He will be making his Second Campaign<\/a> stop in iowa on tuesday. One person is dead and six others injured in dallas after Severe Weather<\/a> caused a crane to collapse on to an apartment building. An official confirmed that severe winds appeared to have played a role in the incident. Now back to dateline. Welcome back to dateline. Im craig melvin. Investigator Tom Fassbender<\/a> deny police framed steven avery for the murder of Teresa Halbach<\/a>. After all, averys nephew Brendan Dassey<\/a> admitted helping his uncle commit the crime, a story on camera. But the teen later recanted and a closer look at the confession would put the confession at the heart of the controversy surrounding this case. Here again is andrea canning. All the renewed attention in the steven avery saga has shed light on the other defendant in the case Brendan Dassey<\/a>. The teenager had been convicted of rape and murder, but to his family, none of it ever made any sense. Is brendan someone capable of rape . No. No. I dont even think he knew what that was at the time. In 2008, attorneys took up dasseys case for his appeal. They saw a mentally challenged teen with a low i. Q. How do you spell garage . Garage. What did you think of Brendan Dassey<\/a> when you were able to meet him in person . Brendan is a simple soul. I was struck by his humanity. This is not somebody i could see committing a crime like this. Thats the psychological power of interrogation. The two attorneys are based at the Northwestern School<\/a> of law in chicago. Theyve worked to free a number of wrongfully convicted defendants and say what they learned about dasseys case astounded them. Nobody was in Brendan Dassey<\/a>s corner at the moment he needed help the most. Beginning, they say, with this man. Give me one word to describe len kachinsky. Unbelievable. Unconscionable. He came on board to defend dassey just after his nephew was arrested. The attorney had made legal mistakes that caused him to be removed from the case. He has faced online vitriol from dassey supporters. Is it okay if i read you some of the comments . Sure, go ahead. Disgusting human being. Appear a disgrace to the wisconsin social system. A man with a sickened soul. Ive seen it. In one instance, working to cut a plea deal while he was in jail, had arranged for his client to speak with investigators, but he himself didnt show up. That was clearly a mistake. This is huge, though. I agree. You have a 16yearold kid with a low i. Q. , with no attorney present, no parent. Its kinda like feeding someone to the wolves in a way. Would you apologize to Brendan Dassey<\/a> . Well, id apologize to him for not being at that interview. So there were mistakes made . Oh, sure. None of them contributed to the verdict in dasseys case. There are people who disagree with that. Oh, sure. But as dasseys attorneys delve further into the stunning statements the teen made, they came to believe something more disturbing that investigators Tom Fassbender<\/a> and mark wiegert had coerced the teen into making a false confession. These officers took advantage of a disabled youth and got him to say what they wanted him to say. Dont lie to us now, okay . Come on. What happened there . Just hurting yourself if you lie now. Hes got severe learning disabilities, inability to respond in narrativetype answers. And theyre in precisely the areas that make him vulnerable to the kind of tactics the officers used in this case. The attorneys say the investigators manipulated dassey with coaxing statements like these from fassbender who was seated just offcamera. Im your friend right now. Its all right. You are doing the right thing. They should never have made those kinds of suggestions, that they wanted to comfort him. That all would be well. Those kinds of tactics when used on a kid like brendan are a recipe for false confessions. And they say the investigators manipulation of the teen escalated far beyond simple coaxing. The officers needed brendan to provide information that only the real killer would know. And they knew what they wanted him to say. They accused the investigators of planting details about the crime in dasseys mind, to get the answers they wanted. For example, remember Steven Averys<\/a> dna found on the car hood latch . The attorneys say investigators asked dassey leading questions to confirm that his uncle had looked under the hood of the car. Did he raise the hood at all or anything like that, to do something to the car . Yeah. What did he do under the hood, if thats what he did . I dont know what he did, but i know he went under. And dasseys attorney say in that same interview, the investigators used another Crucial Detail<\/a> they learned from the case from the forensics. Tell us what else did you do, something with the head. They had received a report from the wisconsin crime lab, indicating for the first time, how Teresa Halbach<\/a> had died. She had been shot in the head. They worked extremely hard to get brendan to say that. We have the evidence, brendan. We just need you to be honest with us. They cut off her hair. What else was done to her head . That he punched her. What else . Its okay. What did he make you do . Cut her. What else happened to her, in her head . Extremely, extremely important you tell us this. For us to believe you. Come on, brendan. What else . Thats all i can remember. All right. Im just gonna come out and ask you, who shot her in the head . He did. Why didnt you tell us that . Because i couldnt think of it. Those officers wanted that information in the worst way, and they got it in the worst way. By feeding it straight to Brendan Dassey<\/a>. Even they know that thats bad police practice. Then, they discovered something at the end of that interview which was a revelation to them, something jurors in his trial never heard. Dassey speaking to his mother. I never did nothing. Did you . Not really. What do you mean, not really . Do that to my head. At the first moment that brendan gets outside the influence of those interrogators, he says, nope, this is not true, they got to my head. But Tom Fassbender<\/a>, the interrogator himself, sees it all very differently. Coming up this was seen by many as a false confession. I feel it was a real confession. He knew right from wrong. Brendan was involved in this. When return to Manitowoc County<\/a> continues. County continues. When crabe stronger. Strong, with new nicorette coated ice mint. Layered with flavor. Its the first and only coated nicotine lozenge. For an amazing taste. That outlasts your craving. New nicorette ice mint. At a comfort inn with a glow taround them, so people watching will be like, wow, maybe ill glow too if i book direct at choicehotels. Com. Who glows . Just say, badda book. Badda boom. Book now at choicehotels. Com. You should be mad at tech that makes things worse. But youre not, because you have e trade whose tech makes life easier by automatically adding technical patterns on charts and helping you understand what they mean. Dont get mad, get e trade. You wouldnt accept an incomplete job from any one else. Why accept it from your allergy pills . Flonase sensimist relieves all your worst symptoms, including nasal congestion, which most pills dont. And all from a gentle mist you can barely feel. Flonase sensimist. Award winning interface. Award winning design. Award winning engine. The volvo xc90. The most awarded luxury suv of the century. Welcome back. It was powerful evidence. Under police interrogation, 16yearold Brendan Dassey<\/a> revealed how he and his uncle steven avery stabbed then shot 25yearold Teresa Halbach<\/a>. But years after their convictions, the confession remained a flash point of controversy. Was dassey telling the truth, as prosecutors believed, or was he a vulnerable minor telling detectives what he thought they wanted to hear . As dasseys defense claimed. Interrogatory Tom Fassbender<\/a> sat down with us to tackle the questions headon. Here again is andrea canning. For his interrogation of Brendan Dassey<\/a>, now seen by millions, Tom Fassbender<\/a> has come under fire in court and online. This was seen by many as a false confession. Do you see it as a false confession or a real confession . I feel it was a real confession. Were you ever trying to extract a false confession from him . Absolutely not. Fassbender denies that his expressions of sympathy for dassey were manipulative. I, legitimately, was concerned for him. That wasnt staged, that wasnt strategy. Why do you think people took it the other way, the more sinister way . That you were taking advantage of him . I think thats easy to do. From its a cynical approach, so to speak, watching tv, watching movies, how cops are depicted on those movies, trying to trick people into saying stuff. Everything about the interview with brendan was soft, was comfortable. But comfortable might not be a word dasseys supporters would use, especially given his age and intelligence level. What about his iq . Because when you watch him, you can tell that he has a lower iq. I dont i dont know his iq. Could you tell that he maybe wasnt like other boys his age . More socially probably. I dont know how to cross the iq social line, but he could think and he knew right from wrong. Is it possible that hes easily manipulated . Its possible. He sounded confused at times. Quite possibly. He didnt know what was up and down. I dont know, just watching it. I dont know about that. My thought is, he had a million things going on in his head at that time. Fassbender resists charges that he and his partner inappropriately planted ideas in dasseys head, like in that exchange about the hood latch. What did he do under the hood, if thats what he did . What did brendan say . He agreed that steven had gone under there. You used word agreed. Yeah. So you brought it up first. I believe so. Thats one of the areas that you came under fire for. Yes. That you were planting things in his mind. Yes, thats what they said. And there were instances that we did ask him specifically about things, yes. And that can happen in an interview. Can we take that as a reliable answer given it was spoonfed to them . Their side would argue no. And i would say, based on the entirety of the interview, i would say yes. And as for the other moment that has angered so many followers of the case. Im going to come out and ask you, who shot her in the head . He did. Any regrets about that . Bringing it up yourselves, about putting that in his head . Theres always things that you can improve on. There were instances because of brendans personality that, yeah, we had to talk to him about and ask more specifically certain questions. And it happens. What do you say to those people who have made you part of this big discussion about false confessions and who are yelling at their tvs because they didnt like the job that you did . Just that its easy to arm chair quarterback. Its easy to secondguess. That i thats partly why im here, to explain that there was nothing nefarious done. But even fassbender wonders if everything dassey said in the confession was true. We didnt try to manipulate brendan. We tried to get at the truth. And i dont believe that it was a false confession. Are there parts of it that he may have not done . I dont know. You know, i just dont know. In august of 2016, a federal judge weighed in with a bombshell. In response to a brief filed by dasseys attorneys, judge William Duffin<\/a> ruled that Brendan Dassey<\/a>s confession was involuntary. With that, the judge overturned his conviction and ordered dassey to be released from prison. What was that like for you, hearing that news . Mixed emotions. I know we did everything above board, that one magistrate rules that it isnt fine, in his opinion, which is all right. Because thats the system. Are you okay if we walks free . Im not okay if the familys not okay. I believe brendan was involved in this. That he was there and he was involved in it. The Wisconsin Attorney<\/a> general also believes brendan was involved in teresas murder. He appealed the judges order for release, asking a full panel of federal judges to review the case. In september of 2017, that request was granted. The seventh circuit u. S. Court of appeals heard evidence about whether dasseys confession was coerced. Nine weeks later, the sevenjudge panel upheld the state courts finding that dasseys confession was voluntary, meaning the young man will remain in prison. The u. S. Supreme court declined to review his case. Brendan dasseys lawyers have vowed to continue the fight for his freedom. Coming up he told me to watch dateline. In the steven avery case, how a ofyearold dateline led to a brandnew attorney. I said thats the woman thats going to get steven out of prison. When return to Manitowoc County<\/a> continues. Itowoc county continues. You wouldnt accept an incomplete job from any one else. Why accept it from your allergy pills . Flonase sensimist relieves all your worst symptoms, including nasal congestion, which most pills dont. And all from a gentle mist you can barely feel. Flonase sensimist. You can barely feel. Plants capture co2. What if other kinds of plants captured it too . If these industrial plants had technology that captured carbon like trees we could help lower emissions. Carbon capture is Important Technology<\/a> and experts agree. Thats why were working on ways to improve it. So plants. Can be a little more. Like plants. Welcome back. Despite the supreme courts refusal toe hear his case, Brendan Dassey<\/a> supporters have not given up hope. Neither had Steven Averys<\/a>. His fight for freedom was about to be renewed, and it started with an episode of dateline on a different case featuring a highpowered defense attorney. But the prosecutor who put both men behind bars said he was certain justice had been served. We wanted to ask him how he could be so sure. With the conclusion of our story, here is andrea canning. Steven avery and his supporters had been hoping for good news. And they couldnt know it yet but help was just around the corner. He was gentle and loving. Sandy greenman is averys longtime friend and onetime fiancee. Convinced of his innocence, she says she searched for years to find the right attorney to take on his complicated case. During a call from prison, avery told her to watch dateline. He had heard that there was going to be this Ryan Ferguson<\/a> case on dateline. So he told me to watch it, just to see the lawyer. That dateline program, told the story of Ryan Ferguson<\/a>, a young man sitting in prison for a murder he said he didnt commit. Attorney Kathleen Zellner<\/a> was determined to get him out. Nothing is as riveting as this. When the trial has been lost, everythings been lost, and you got somebody in there is innocent. Its like the ultimate challenge, i think. I said thats the woman thats going to get steven out of prison. Zellner specializes in Wrongful Conviction<\/a> cases and says she has freed many defendants, including Ryan Ferguson<\/a>. Sandy contacted her and she joined the case not long after making a murderer came out. We caught up with her when she made a visit in early 2016. Milliondollar question, do you think you have new evidence that could free steven avery . We do, yeah. Reporter zellner invited dateline into this war room she created in her office outside of chicago, all dedicated to the avery case. Do we know if that was tested . And she even showed us this rav4 she bought to get a better understanding of teresas vehicle. Then in august of 2016, to much media fanfare, she filed a motion in Manitowoc County<\/a> court, seeking new testing of the evidence. Were going to find out one way or the other what is the evidence planted. Kathleen zellner is known as an aggressive attorney. Ari melber is a legal analyst for msnbc. She is looking for new evidence to argue the entire case was done the wrong way. She is basically trying to put the state on trial. In her 45page legal motion, zellner attacks Law Enforcement<\/a>, tries to poke holes in the prosecutions case and raises new questions. She notes that teresas cell phone pinged off a cell phone tower 13 miles away later that day, suggesting maybe she left there alive. There is also indications that other people not from Law Enforcement<\/a> entered the property during the investigation, raising the prospect of other potential suspects. And shes won an early round. In november 2016, a judge granted her access to some of the evidence, so her experts could perform new forensic tests, including more advanced testing of averys blood from the rav4. In june 2017, zellner filed a motion requesting a new trial for avery. In a statement she told dateline, we will be able to demonstrate exactly how the evidence was planted in the early investigation. Avery, she insists, was framed for a crime he did not commit. But in october 2017, a Wisconsin Circuit Court<\/a> denied that request. Zellner petitioned the judges ruling to the Wisconsin Court<\/a> of appeals and promised she is just beginning to fight. As for former prosecutor ken kratz and his book, zellner dismisses kratzs claims about averys treatment of women and interactions with teresa, saying there was no proof mr. Avery was becoming obsessed with ms. Halbach, and that rehashing a story about inadmissible evidence seems pointless. Zellner also notes, mr. Kratz has no qualifications that would allow him to diagnosis mr. Avery as a psychopath. Mr. Avery has never been diagnosed as a psychopath. Kratz, who prosecuted both steven avery and Brendan Dassey<\/a> says he is undaunted. Are you afraid of Kathleen Zellner<\/a> . No. Im not involved in the case anymore. I shouldnt be involved in anything. My involvement concluded. She could unravel your work, if what shes saying has some weight to it. You dont think she has a chance. I dont. Shes so confident. Why are you so confident . Because we spent 18 months putting this case together. This wasnt just thrown together. It wasnt a bunch of keystone cops. It was done very professionally, very well. Kratz does have personal regrets. In his book, he admits to past Prescription Drug<\/a> abuse and says he is ashamed he sent sexually domestic texts to a Domestic Violence<\/a> victim two years after averys trial, a scandal which led to his resignation. Well, he still takes issue with making a murderer he is moving on with his life. Im hoping this book will change the narrative. With all of the looks at guilt or innocence, with all of the trials and retrials, kim says what is forgotten is her friend, teresa. She is the reason why were even talking about this, and she just deserves to be remembered. I love hugs. For her memory, kim says she goes back to this grainy video diary teresa made three years before she died. It was played at averys sentencing. I love taking pictures. I love holding a camera in my hand. It gives me the chills every time i hear it. She talked about everything she loved. Is there anything you would say to teresa if she could hear you . Just that youre still in my heart, and ill never forget you. I just want to know, i just want people i love to know that whenever i die, that i was happy. Thats all for this edition of dateline. Im craig melvin. Thank you for watching. Comic book archvillain. Hes almost like a marvel comic book arch villain. Hes bright. Hes clever. Evil as can be. On a beautiful, sprawling farm, seeds of danger. We heard this big explosion. Hes just laying on the ground. This loving father of three, the farms heart and soul, killed in a ball of fire. They were saying it wasnt an accident. Our assumption was it was a pipe bomb. Someone finds the dead man had reaped what hed sown. 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