he says he would like to cooperate with the impeachment investigators. he says he would also like to cooperate with the federal prosecutors who have charged him in the southern district of new york. but he is right now out on bond awaiting trial. and i will just mention at the outset that i am cognizant of the fact that we are presenting the second part of this interview tonight rather than just diving right into some of the other momentous and historic news of today, including the start today of the senate trial of president trump. today marks only the third time in u.s. history that an american president has faced an impeachment trial in the senate and it was a solemn beginning today. the administering the of the oath to the chief justice of the supreme court, the administering to all u.s. senators, all of the senators individually signing their names to the oath one by one in alphabetical order. it's a solemn thing. it's a sobering thing. this is a big deal. a and it is worth the massive headlines that it's getting all over the country. it is absolutely worth marking this day in history. it is also worth noting that the non-partisan government accountability office today issued a ruling, that it was illegal for president trump to withhold aid to ukraine as part of this scheme what he did there was against the law. for that to be arequireing today, that ruling from the government accountability office on the day that the senate impeachment trial starts. i mean this is all a big deal. but it's also becoming clear that what happens next in the impeachment of president trump in this senate trial may depend, in part, on the additional evidence and witnesses who are still coming forward as the ukraine scheme is coming more fully to light. and so, onward. here's part 2. all right. one of the main questions, a lot of different people have asked. i, myself, have asked and have wondered, the main question asked about mr. parnas' decision to give this first public interview, is, why he would speak out publicly while he's out on bond awaiting trial? all right, that is atypical behavior to say the least for a federal criminal defendant, particularly one that has a lawyer. the public wisdom is common remarks around remarks to the media could really only disadvantage a defendant in his or her dealings with federal prosecutors. right? if you speak out publicly, if you speak to the media, it will hurt your criminal case, that is the common wisdom for all defendants in all criminal trials so why is mr. parnas doing it? well, in this case, mr. parnas says that he has a significant fear of the justice department. and, specifically, he has significant fear of tomorrow william barr. for him, that is not reason to be quiet. >> that is a part of the reason why he's making his case now to the public. my understanding from spending a long time with mr. parnas doing this interview is that he believes he's safer putting this stuff out in the public sphere than he is keeping his mouth shut while the justice department know what is he was involved in and they know what he knows and they have his fate in their hands. >> my only objective is to get the truth out because i never thought i did, was doing anything wrong. i still, you know, i regret certain things that i did because like hurting the ambassador and you know, because that was not something, but it was a part of. it's like when you are in a war, you think casualties stuff like that. it's bad to say, but it was -- and i keep saying it was like you know being in a cult. and true what they say organized crime. i don't think he's crime, i think he's a cult leader. that's a scary part. that's what i mention, people don't understand, there is a lot of republicans that would go against him, the only reason if you take a look, you know very well, you have been following, the difference between why trump is so powerful now, he wasn't as powerful in '16 and '17, he became that powerful when he got william barr. people are scared. am i scared, yes? because i think i'm more scared of our own justice department than these criminals right now because, you know, the scariest part is getting locked in some room and being treated as an animal when you did nothing wrong or where you are not and that's the tool they're using. i mean, just because they try to scare me into not talking, but with god's help and with my lawyer next to me that i know will go to bat for me no matter what, with the truth and i'm taking a chance. my wife is scared. my kids are nervous. >> he says they're trying to scare me into not talking. mr. parnas is referencing something specific, actually that i asked him about in more detail in a different part of the interview i will show you in just a moment. but what mr. parnas describes there as a sort of what he says is a cultish environment, him saying gelitting out of that cultish environment around the president now makes him regret his actions, that thing being like a cult, he regrets his behavior there, that applies as well to the central claim at the heart of the impeachment scandal which was this concerted effort that mr. parnas was involved in, to accuse former president joe biden of wrongdoing and to get you kraen ukraine to announce investigations of vice president biden. in terms of the allegations against vice president bind, mr. shokin makes allegations against joe biden. mr. lipchenco makes allegations against mr. biden. do you believe those allegation were true? >> when we were dealing with it, when i was in the middle of the thick of things, i keep saying it's like a cultish environment being around president trump. i have been in d.c. for two years, i never left the trump hotel type of a situation so i truly believed seeing different information that was handed to us at that time that joe biden was doing something illegal, not so much hunter biden but joe biden. but after analyzing all the everyday and sitting back, release what's understanding what's going on, i don't think vice president biden did anything wrong. i think he was protecting our country and getting rid of probably a crooked attorney general and people used this to their advantage. a lot of rich people in ukraine have their own agenda and they use us here for their own political stuff. so i think this is -- was a big one. >> in terms of the material that was handed over to intelligence. on march 22nd, mr. lipkenco translated to you in russia, there is a translation, it says it's just that if you don't make a decision about madam, you are bringing into question all my allegations, including about b. so when he says madam, is he talking about? >> ambassador yovanovitch. >> when he says all my allegations including about b, is that burisma and wide season. >> yes. >> do you know if it's burisma or biden? i guess it could be either? >> it was always biden. burisma, nobody cares about burisma, lechevsky, the concern was biden. >> in effect is he saying listen if you want me to make these biden allegations you have to get rid of the ambassador? >> absolutely. >> was he threatening if he didn't get rid of the ambassador, he would withdraw the allegations? >> he actually withdrew them. >> we wanted her ousted with his own career reasons, he crashed with her in her anti-corruption efforts? >> yes. >> lechevsky and they had -- >> they don't like each other. >> they don't like each other. >> even though lechevsky used to be his under link, they consider, listen, it's a different environment over there and it's, unless you live it and unless you do business there and unless you visit there and understand it, bribery and it's just a way of life, people at the store bribe the butcher to get a better piece of meat, it's normal to get better seats at a concert. it's a way of life over there. the way the structure is set up, the way everybody hopes zelensky changes it, i don't know how he can change with one. it's already embedded. once you become -- in america like you become a politician to serve your country, not to make money, because you can't make money, in ukraine, it's the opposite. some of these people pay millions of that, no get a seat as a politician. >> they can make so much more money? >> once they get there. it's all about the money and power. >> lev parnas, a key fixer and figure in the effort to fit up vice president joe biden with accusations of wrong-doing in ukraine to enforce the government to announce investigations into mr. body on the force out the u.s. ambassador marie yovanovitch who was in the waive of that effort. mr. parnas now apologizing to that u.s. ambassador, ambassador yovanovitch. we aired that last night and as i just showed you, mr. parnas also says he now does not believe that vice president biden did anything wrong in ukraine and vice president biden's actions there, which mr. parnas helped try to turn into a scandal in his word now he says mr. biden's actions were taken to protect our country and get rid of a crooked attorney general. by confirming the nature of his own communications with that official, he refers to as a crooked attorney general, mr. parnas also makes clear that the removal of ambassador yovanovitch was a demand from the key accusers that he and mr. guiliani and the president and others have been using to make this false case against biden. the accusers, including both lipsenco and chokeen wants yovanovitch gone, they insisted the ambassador be removed or his allegations against biden might be at risk. shokin and lipsenco wanted ambassador yovanovitch removed because they were correct and she was a force against corruption in ukraine, so they wanted her out of their way, too. think about the collateral damage caused not only in her country and around the world and in ukraine in this scheme to aid the effort. >> that gives you a clear sense of what that might be in ukraine when it comes to anti-corruption. president trump's alleged personal role in trying to remove ambassador yovanovitch before she was ultimately recalled. we will have more coming up on this hour as we want. before we get to that there is one other piece of this i want to foreground here. >> that isn't specifically about president trump. it's about another senior member of the trump administration who lev parnas says stepped in to play a role in the ukraine scheme at a very key moment. the new president of ukraine, elected on this anti-corruption platform, right, engaged in an ongoing war with russia. he's inaugurated in may. as the new leader of ukraine, he somewhat desperately needs a show of support, a strong show of support from the united states government that's key to the u.s., to the ukraine in terms of its fight with russia among other things. on the eve of zelensky's inauguration, mr. parnas told me in a personal interview we played yesterday, that he was directed by rudy guiliani, who had spoken to president trump about it, he was directed to really turn up the pressure in ukraine to demand to the ukrainian government unless they announce the biden investigation, the ukrainian government would lose not all military aid, they would lose all u.s. aid and vice president pence would not come to the inauguration of the new president. vice president pence's plans to attend at that point were in full swing. the threat was that would be cancelled that pence wouldn't come unless they met the biden investigation demand. we played this portion last night. here's a little bit to refresh your memory. >> in the conversation i told him that if he doesn't the announcement was the key at that time because of the inauguration that pence would not show up, nobody would show up to his inauguration. >> unless he announced an investigation into joe biden, no u.s. officials, particularly vice president mike pence would not come. >> particularly vice president mike pence. >> so that conversation as mr. parnas describes it, he says that was in may of last year, may 12th specifically, a meeting he says with a top aid to the incoming president if you crane, mr. zelensky's top adviser. he says the that demand, they needed to announce the biden investigation was rebuffed. the ukrainians did not agree to announce a biden investigation, despite the threat mr. parnas was making there on behalf of the white house. when they rebuffed his demand and they did not provide that investigation, in fact, the following day, the white house made good on their threat and vice president mike pence did can sell his planned trip to the zelensky inauguration. that's as far as we got in the interview with mr. parnas as of last night. but the way it went down thereafter, is that after vice president pence cancelled his trip to the zelensky inauguration, within a few days, the u.s. government decided they would send another senior official in his place. so, let's pick up the story there. >> and that's when we flew to paris and in paris we met rudy for and when we were in paris with rudy, basically, that's when i found out that perry was going, that they decided to send perry there. >> secretary perry. you learned that from mr. guiliani? >> correct. >> was perry aware of what you and mr. guiliani were doing if you crane to get these announcements? >> i don't know about me, definitely he knew about rudy because he was told, he called rudy on his way there to ask him what to discuss and rudy told him that to make sure to give him the message. >> mr. guiliani told secretary perry what you need to convey to the ukrainian government is they need to announce an investigation into joe biden? >> absolutely. >> do you know if part of the message that mr. guiliani conveyed to secretary perry was also that ukraine would lose their military aid if they didn't announce those investigations? >> i don't recall them having a specific conversation about that. it was more of just telling him what he needs to do to announce it. i don't know whethat other conversation they could have had prior or after. but i know there was another conversation that perry called after the inauguration telling him that he spoke to zelensky and zelensky is going to do it. >> perry says i spoke with zelensky and i got him to agree. >> yeah. >> i got him to agree announce the investigation. >> they did an announcement. they didn't do that every time somebody would meet zelensky, they would like agree and they would walk it back. so they announced something about corruption. >> that he's going to get corruption but guiliani blew his lid on that saying that's not what we discussed. it wasn't supposed to be corruption announcement. it has to be about joe biden and hunter biden and burisma. >> he said the name biden had to be spoken? >> always. always. >> they did not want them to discuss anti-corruption efforts. that was not it. it had to be about biden. they had to say biden. lev parnas alleging that former energy secretary rick perry, who we know from impeachment testimony was tasked by the white house along with kurt volker and gordon sondland taking the lead, this wasn't three amigos, according to lev parnas, secretary of energy rick perry was directed by rudy guiliani to deliver the message to the ukrainian government that they needed to announce investigations into joe biden. he says, mr. parnas says that mr. perry phoned mr. guiliani, contacted mr. guiliani and said he had been in touch with the ukrainian president. >> that he had conditiveyed the message and, in fact, the ukrainian government had agreed to make that announcement. secretary of energy rick perry denied playing any role in this scheme. but he did crash out of the cabinet just as the scandal surfaced. it was october 16th when the "wall street journal" reported that, in fact, secretary perry did call rudy guiliani to talk about ukraine. he did so at the direction of president trump. the following day, october 17th, rick perry tendered his resignation to the president as energy secretary. the day after that october 18th, secretary perry announced that he would not comply with a subpoena in the impeachment investigation. whether he would comply now with a subpoena to testify to the senate trial of the president, that remains to be seen. we'll be right back with more. >> i know that there was another conversation that perry called after the inauguration telling him that he spoke to zelensky and zelensky is going to do it. o it >> it's an honor to tell you that liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. and now we need to get back to work. 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>> several conversations. one in particular which i would have to refresh my memory, looking at my text messages with him. buffit had to do with i think it was victor shokin's visa or something to do with ukraine, rudy was busy at the time and basically told me jay was aware of everything, that he brought him up to speed that i could call him and he was on top of it. >> by that did he mean mr. sekulow was aware of this effort to get ukraine to announce investigations? >> oh, absolutely. one of the things that was the best quote ever was when mr. southerland said everybody was in the loop. >> what do you mean everybody was in the loop? >> i don't believe i know, i was witness to conversations and you know between them and everybody was in the loop. everybody didn't adpee with the loop. i mean jay sekulow didn't agree with what rudy was doing? he knew what he was doing? how do you know he didn't agree with him? >> because i heard him talk about it what was his objection? >> he didn't want to be involved in the ukraine stuff. you have as to ask him. but my feeling from the conversations and watching the way jay approached that situation was he just didn't want to be apart of it, he wanted to stay away from him. >> you mentioned that you were trying to get mr. shokin a visa to come to the occupation? >> after the conversation with mr. guiliani, we had skype, they had discussed and arrange they would have mr. shokin come here and mr. guiliani wanted to debrief him in front of mr. lindsey graham and certain other people like the attorney general. >> because mr. shokin was going to say what? >> he was basically going to testify and say joe biden bievgally forced him out, because he was going to investigate hunter, biden and burisma. >> was the president ever involved in the effort to get this visa from mr. shokin and the text messages that were released, mr. guiliani tells you he will get number one involved in this effort to get mr. shokin into the u.s., is that a reference to the president? >> yes. >> did the president ever work on it? >> of course. >> lev parnas saying the president was aware of and involved in the efforts to try to bring at least one biden accuser from yukraine to the united states to among other things brief senator lindsey graham and tomorrow william barr. we believe that accuser former ukrainian prosecutor victor shokin had his visa to visit the united states blocked by the u.s. embassy in kiev because it was the official view of him he was way too corrupt of an official to be allowed a u.s. visa. but it's also noteworthy mr. parnas says he believes counsel to the president jay sekulow was aware of everything going on in this ukraine scheme but that he disapproved of it. in mr. parnas' words, mr. sekulow wanted to stay away from all of this stuff involving you kravenlt i should note mr. sekulow is expected to be one of the main counsels for president trump in his impeachment trial which conseen today in the senate. i should note mr. parnas says mr. sekulow was however much he disapproved of the whole ukraine scheme, he says he was directly involved in advising him not to investigate into the ukraine scheme and with signing him up with some other lawyers who lev ultimately fired but who also told him not to cooperate into the investigation into ukraine. >> how did you end up with mr. downing and mr. dowd representing you when the impeachment inquiry had contacted you for testimony? >> that's a good question, rachel. first of all, what happened was we were in vienna when we got notified that we had a congressional what's its called, request. and i was there with victoria and joe degenova and i said what do i do? they said call rudy. i called rudy, said how do we do? his first response was don't worry about it? i was like don't worry about it. you're an attorney, help me get an attorney. rudy said oh great john dowd. we got excited. i didn't know who he was. i knew he was the president's attorney, so he was -- it was an exciting situation, even though all this going on is still you know like looney tunes, but i called john dowd, introduced myself like rudy connected us. at first everything was good. then about 15 minutes later i get a call from him saying we have a problem, i'm not probably going to be able to represent you. i said what happened? he goes, i have been speaking with jay sekulow and you know because i was the president's attorney and i'm still kind of doing work for the president, there is a conflict of interest, unless he wants to waive it i don't think the president is going to waive that conflict. because at that point john dowd didn't know who i was. also he didn't think i had a relationship with the president. i responded to him, i think he will. >> you think the president will waive the conflict and represent you? >> i said absolutely, give rudy a call. i'm sure we can work this out. because i said this is very important. about 15, 20 minutes later i got called back from john dowd. he said you are one lucky guy. i just got a call from jay second loss, i got the permission. and i'm getting it in writing shortly. >> you are one lucky guy. i want to interrupt here for a moment to show you in fact what mr. parnas is talking about is corroborated by some of the documentation that he has handed over to the house intelligence committee this letter from jay sekulow saying that he, jay sekulow, got president trump's express permission for lev parnas to be represented legally by john dowd, that was, in fact, a letter that mr. parnas turned over to the impeachment investigators and has been conveyed to the senate. jay sekulow says i have talked to john sekulow and received your permission. he thinks he is lucky, it shows the president is willing to ep e help him out. she getting the president's lawyer, which is wonderful. mr. parnas went on to say he was advised by his new lawyer he was very excited about john dowd in consultation with jay sekulow of the white house and rudy guiliani that he should not cooperate into the investigation into ukraine, the impeachment investigation brewing in congress. he's been asked to give information. he says he is advised by his new legal team in communications with the white house, with the president's counsel jay sekulow that he shouldn't cooperate. even though he says he personally would have been happy to. >> you got a request from congress, for you and mr. fruman to come testify at the impeachment investigation. you were inclined to say yes? >> absolutely. i had nothing to hide. we weren't doing anything illegal. >> your adviser john dowd said the president would give you cover for not cooperating. >> it was more than that i was brought into john dowd's house, he got jay sekulow on the phone and also rudy and victoria and basically they came up with a situation that said because i worked for rudy and because i worked for victoria, and because rudy worked for the president, we had three-way privilege and that basically pat sililoni that nobody is cooperating, that would protect us under the same order. he would follow up with that again this was the president of the united states. i thought okay. here's all the information i have. i did my duty. i gave him whatever paperwork i had. >> mr. parnas says that he disagreed with this decision to not cooperate with the congressional investigation into the ukraine scheme. he said he was inclined to hand over whatever he had. but he says the president. approved mr. parnas using this lawyer who the president, himself, used, mr. dowd. mr. sekulow in the white house was a part of the team giving him advice that he should not cooperate. he figured it was probably fun, since all of this appeared to be coming down to him from the president of the united states, and all of these people who worked with the president. but then lev parnas got arrested. and that's when things went quite pare shaped. >> mr. dowd was your attorney for a time and then you changed attorneys. >> i fired him in jail. >> you fired him when you were in jail? >> yes. >> what happened then? >> and mr. downing. >> basically, when we were arrested, obviously, i had nowhere else to call. i didn't know. we just retained downing. so i called downing to come there. and i started seeing in the process of the bail stuff the way things were going on that they were more concentrating on i didn't feel that they were trying to get me out and at that point i had a meeting with john dowd and downing inside the jail and john dowd just instead of comforting me and trying calming me down telling me it's going to be okay, like don't worry, basically started talking to me like a drill sergeant, telling me orders, be a good bye you know. >> he said be a good bye? >> i don't want to quote him exactly on what the words like he used in that. it was a while ago and i don't remember exactly. but it was his condescending attitude to who do you think you are telling the president or guiliani or anybody to like come out because i one of the things i said i can't believe nobody is coming out in our defense and saying like we didn't do that, we were good citizens, like we were. and basically, word-for-word and then i said, if you don't get out of here right now, something bad is going to happen, because i don't want to see the two of you. tant downey hit the emergency button and the security took me out. >> so this was a heated conversation. you told do you think and dowd to get out? >> i threw them out. >> were they telling you to sacrifice yourself in order to protect the president? >> that's what i felt. >> is the implication of this story of the lawyers that you feel that people loyal to the president and close to the president were trying to influence your defense and your case in a way thawas against your interests but in the president's interests? >> absolutely. i think they tried to keep me quiet. >> lev parnas again should be noted is out on bond awaiting trial on multiple felony counts for funneling foreign donations to republican candidates and campaigns, including the super pac supporting president trump's re-election effort e. in terms of the lawyers he was talking about here, kevin downing was the main defense lawyer for the president's campaign chairman, paul manafort, who was currently serving more than seven years in federal prison. john dowd was one of the president's defense counsels on the russia investigation, but mr. do you think and mr. dowd have since been fired by lev parnas in the situation you just heard him describe there, that jailhouse confrontation. as for jay sekulow, the gentleman on the right side of the screen here, he will be representing president trump as one of his defense counsels in the u.s. senate in the president's impeachment trial. speaking of the president, more ahead. speaking of the president, more ahead. these days, we're all stressed. 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[ telephone beeps ] butt dial. -hello? -sorry, honey. dana-farber cancer institute discovered the pd-l1 pathway. pd-l1. they changed how the world fights cancer. blocking the pd-l1 protein, lets the immune system attack, attack, attack cancer. pd-l1 transformed, revolutionized, immunotherapy. pd-l1 saved my life. saved my life. saved my life. what we do here at dana-faber, changes lives everywhere. everywhere. everywhere. everywhere. everywhere. we got one last piece of the lev parnas interview to bring you. it is one i'll tell you in advance it raises more questions than it answers. the person who can answer those questions is not lev parnas but rather secretary of state mike pompeo or perhaps other state department officials who know about the actions of secretary pompeo and the state department at this time. when you hear people gnash their teeth that they haven't handed over any documents, but the state department won't hand over a single document to explain it's own role and behavior during this scandal. this is why, this is an example of why. okay. one of the mysteries that still lingers from the ukraine scandal the about that smear campaign that was carried out against the u.s. ambassador to ukraine maria yovanovitch and that smear campaign of course was aimed at getting her removed from the embassy from her post. ultimately, she was removed. she was told to get on the next plane out. she got a call at 1:00 in the morning, saying your security is at risk. get on the next plane out. that was late april. her announcement was announced shortly thereafter in terms that said it was normal and long planned when it was actually anything but. but in addition to lying of the circumstance of her departure, one question that has always nagged about the state department and the role of secretary of state mike pompeo is why the smear campaign was necessary. after all, if may yovanovitch was in the way of the president's pressure campaign to get the ukrainian government to help him with his re-election effort or the president was unhappy for any other reason either made up or real, well, he's the president, he could fire her, have her recalled from her post. why do they have to have her go through this public humiliating drama? well, in my interview, mr. poorn nas told me president trump tried to fire ambassador yovanovitch several times and it for some reason didn't work. >> the president kept firing her and couldn't, she wouldn't leave. so nobody could understand what was going on. >> public information she was removed at the time she was removed, she was back in the united states at the end of april. are you saying the president tried to fire her before then. >> he fired her to my only in at least four, five times. he even had a brake down and screamed fire her to madeleine his assistant, the secretary before he fired her. then she said, mr. president, i can't do that. >> he was asking the state department and the state department was refuseing? >> correct. >> your reason is they removed her multiple times it didn't work is because you talked to the president about her? >> about firing her, i spoke to the president once about that or twice. once or twice, once directly at our dinner when he fired her actually at the dinner, which was the most surprising thing ever. >> tell me more. >> basically at that dinner, we had a conversation, there was like six of us there. there was an intimate dinner. >> at the white house? >> no, the trump hotel, but it was at a private like area there it looks like a little white house. >> the president was there? >> absolutely. the president was there, his son don jr. was there. i don't know how the issue, the conversation came up. i do remember me telling the president that the ambassador was bad mouthing him and saying he was going to get impeached, something to that effect e. and at that point he turned around to john destefano who was his aid at the time and said, fire her. and we all, there was a silence in the room. and he responded to him, he said, mr. president, we can't do that right now because pompeo hasn't been confirmed yet, that pompeo is not confirmed yet and we don't have, until pompeo was confirmed so they go, wait, so several conversations he mentioned it again, i don't know how many times at that dinner, once or twice, three times. he fired her several times. >> he replicated she should be fired and he was ordering her to be fired? >> correct. >> a couple things here, first we should say lev parnas told me in this interview he no longer actually believes may yovanovitch as an ambassador was actually bad mouthing president trump or saying he was going to be impeached. he now recognizes that was a part of the disinformation campaign. he regrets and apologized to the ambassador if my interview, he regrets believing those things about her and participating in the effort to get her fired. the ought thing to note here, show the that the meeting that mr. parnas is describing, he says took place on april 30th 2018 and from what he's describing about where the meeting happened and who was at that meeting we believe that there was a meeting of that type on april 30th 2018 at the location that mr. parnas is describing. on april 30th 2018, mike pompeo had, in fact, been senate confirmed just a few days before, mike pompeo, however, had not been sworn in officially as secretary of state, so perhaps that was the source of confusion saying we can't do it yet, mr. pompeo wasn't formally in place yet. we don't know. but aside from that detail. i think you take from mr. parnas' account there, there was an expectation in the white house around the president that once mike pompeo was fully in charge of the state detectives, once trump had his guy in there as secretary of state, ambassador yovanovitch would be fired. in the end, it would be another year before that actually happened. >> but that was not the only time he fired her. because he fired her at least four other occasions that rouge rou rudy guiliani went to the white house, had conversations and informed me, victoria and joe about what transpired. he fired her when he gave an order to mike pompeo once, which he didn't, pompeo didn't fire her. then rudy came back. he told her go speak to pompeo. rudy went to speak to pompeo. they got into it. then he had another meeting at the white house, where he told bolt on the fire her. he told pompeo to fire her. rudy got into it with all of them again. at one point he told madeleine to fire her. so, i mean, that was becoming comical because i couldn't understand you are the president. that one of the things, when i say comical, it's not more comic am. at that point it was an firmation to me there was people against the president of the united states if they're not listening to his orders. so and that's why i think the smear campaign started coming about. i think it was like a boost to them to help them, if the media started like egg him on, that there was really something there, that he would tweet and fire her. >> they couldn't get it done through normal channels. even with the president, himself, being involved in those somewhat normal channel itself and so they started the smear campaign to try to create media annualtation against ambassador yovanovitch. maybe that would make it possible for the president to evade or ally direct channels and do it with the support of the conservative media, who would have aptserred these claims. this is fascinated, right? according to parnas, the smear campaign was not to convince president trump she was bad. he was open board with that happy to believe that. the smear campaign was meant to help his efforts to fire her. maybe get him so riled up he would fire her by tweet, make it president obama lick instead of yelling it out to random people at random meetings and dinners. but this theory presents us with a sort of mixed complicated picture of secretary of state mike pompeo on this scandal. on the one hand, secretary pompeo refused to support yovanovitch publicly when she was being aand the as a part of a smear campaign, and it was his office that ultimately removed her from the post-without believing they had a substantial reason, any real reason to get her out. we also know that secretary of state mike pompeo was in contact with rudy guiliani, who was running the whole ukraine operation, including the yovanovitch smear campaign, including when lev parnas was inseparable with guiliani was exchanging large text messages with a congressional candidate who reported to have ambassador yovanovitch under physical harm or intimidation carried out against her. i should also mention the material lev parnas turned over to the intelligence committee includes in the latest batch last night these text messages involving rudy guiliani and a fox news lawyer working with guiliani and parnas in their scheme to get yovanovitch fired, in these texts before yovanovitch was called, she asked guiliani, quote, is there absolute commitment for her, her all caps, meaning yovanovitch, tosh gone this week? guiliani respond, quote, yes, not sure how absolute. we'll get a reading in the morning and call you. pompeo, misspelled, is now aware of it. talk to him on friday. the next month the conservative journalist john solomon wrote saying that he, john solomon needed state department help on quote hunter biden contacts. what's state department help? did john solomon expect to get and why did he think lev pardna and friends could get it for him? is that how the state department run sfwhs all of that minutes to mike pompeo's state department being an ally on the ukraine scheme. but it's unclear. i mean you also have lev parnas describing mike pompeo extensively blocking the firing at the latest in september of last year when john bolton left the white house as the ukraine scheme was being exposed. texts suggested that mike pompeo was not in good standing with this group. parnas writing to a friend, quote, bolt isn't out, pompeo is next. but the mixed contradictory picture like that, i had a lot of questions for secretary of state mike pompeo, i imagine impeachment investigators do too. we reached out for comment both last night and tonight, we haven't heard back, we'll let you know if that changes. as the president's trial gets under way in the senate, a key question about the conduct of the trial is whether secretary pompeo will be called under oath to answer questions about what really is his very, very murky role in all of this. we'll be right back. this. we'll be right back. ♪ stop dancing around the pain that keeps you up again, and again. advil pm silences pain, and you sleep the whole night. advil pm so, you bought those "good enough" paper towels? 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