The president of the United States has just fired his National Security adviser john bolton on twitter. This is by my count the third time a top National Security official has been fired on twitter on social media. The first time of course was Rex Tillerson. The second time was dan coats, the National Intelligence director. The tweet i am now seeing says i have asked john for his resignation. I thanked i dont know for his service. I will be selecting a new National Security adviser next week. I disagreed strongly with his decisions and ever there continued to say i asked john for his resignation today. Msnbc political analyst, were going to speak shortly with peter baker who is on the Phone Reporting at the New York Times as we speak. Jim joins me now, manager of President Obamas campaign. This is pretty extraordinary. Were in a middle of a controversy over the camp david proposed meeting. John bolton objected to it very strongly, and we understand according to our reporting that privately the Vice President had also suggested that the initial plan which was for a white house meeting was not welladvised. We dont know how strongly the Vice President objected privately to the president about the Camp David Ameeting as well, but that the Secretary Of State, mike pompeo, was in favor of these taliban talks here In Washington. And it was of course being negotiated by Zal Khalilzad who worked for the Secretary Of State. The dmz meeting, was not there at the zmz meeting and objected to this very high profile proposed Camp David Meeting the
week leading into 9 11 with the taliban for a peace deal that had not been negotiated with the Afghan Government and was not agreed to by the Afghan Government. Your reaction to all this as we are now covering this in Breaking News Mode . Its crazy, andrea. For the first time in my life i feel sorry for john bolton. He was right. The politics and the pop ticks of having the taliban which weve been at war with for 18 years that has been harboring our deepest and truest enemies at camp david where as you know a Hallowed Ground where roosevelt and church hill figured out world war ii, bringing the taliban there was perhaps the worst idea ive heard in politics in a very long time. John bolton said the right thing, disagreed, and in the ongoing soap opera that is the Trump White House, he seems to have been thrown out for
disagreeing with the Secretary Of State and the president of the United States about a really silly thing. And going forward, now were going to get our third or fourth National Security adviser. Hes had several chiefs of staff. Its an ongoing parlor game of who would be stupid enough to take these jobs because you dont last very long and you get fired on twitter. As you know, i was President Obama deputy chief of staff for operations, and typically how this would go in a normal sane white house is someone like me would show up and say look, the president no longer has confidence in you. How do we do this the right way. Instead he gets fired on twitter. The whole world is left to figure out who is Still Standing in this whole thing. For the first time we have major differences between the Vice President of the United States and the president who is now openly disagreeing with the president on some of these things, and were in a campaign
atmosphere. Theres a Washington Post poll out this morning showing the president s numbers dropping precipitously. And in the middle of all this i think youre seeing panic in the president and the white house and theyre starting to do crazy things like firing their National Security adviser for giving them very good advice. We expected to hear from john bolton at 1 30 eastern in the Briefing Room with the Secretary Of State, mike pompeo, and Steve Mnuchin to talk about another counterterrorism operation. Clearly now the Secretary Of State and the National Security adviser cannot appear together when theres so much disagreement, public disagreement between them on these key issues on korea, On Afghanistan. Bolton who was the hawkish person in this cabinet and was not supporting a lot of these initiatives, controversial initiatives by the president. Han
hans nichols is at the white house right now. This is the most dramatic shake up hans, youre on the air if you can are you still on the phone . Reporter no, i got you andrea. Im sorry. Im trying to get to the bottom of this and informing some sources that bolton is out and people trying to process this in real time. Heres the important thing about boltons dismissal. Its the tone of President Trumps dismissal. Its clearly this is not amicable. We know there have been huge divisions within the administration most recently surfacing over what to do about afghanistan more than just hosting the taliban at camp david. This got to the core of what President Donald Trump cam pawned on, and that is getting out of foreign wars. We know bolton was more for staying longer, pompeo was on the other side of this. This is a clear win for mike pompeo as he continues to consolidate power. Bolton is the fourth National Security adviser this president has had. Let me correct myself as i count
them up. He is the fourth. Its an indication of more recycling at the top, and andrea this has longterm implications for a whole host of issues thats iran, thats north korea, thats the middle east peace process, thats venezuela. John bolton was integral in all those conversations. The president has often said he liked boltons hawkish nature and he liked to have the spectrum there to be more bellicose himself. Bolton is out. We need to figure out just what the proximate cause is and who will replace him and what it means for the direction of the administration and for a whole host of issues across the globe. Of course bolton almost auditioned for the job as a Fox News Commentator very vigorously against iran as is pompeo. So, on that, they did not disagree. But he has been driving a lot of the action on iran, certainly was not comfortable with the
president suggesting he would be willing to talk to iranian leaders. Youve got the Un General Assembly meetings coming up in two weeks. Were there in new york for the un meetings. The president is giving a major speech on the 24th at the United Nations. And now his National Security adviser has been fired. One other thing about john bolton i want to point out and im going to bring in ned price here on the phone, former Special Assistant to President Obama. The big difference between john bolton and all his predecessors going back in any administration ive covered is he did not oversee the deputies meetings. He did not convene other agencies. He operated unilaterally very frequently. So, he was not factoring in the opinions of the pentagon, of the cia, of the State Department in decisions that he brought to the president. And that was one subject of a lot of criticism. Even with had i was interviewing dan coats somewhat famously now
in retrospect last summer in aspen when that tweet went out from the white house that putin five days after the very controversial meeting. The Intelligence Community, the Secretary Of State had not been consulted. That was all the president , apparently in communication with putin to bolton directly to Sarah Sanders to tweet out the invitation and without consulting anyone else in the team whether or not this was a good or bad idea. Hans. Reporter in some ways bolton ran his own State Department. Youll recall the time he announced the Carrier Strike Group Heading to the middle east. That didnt come from the pentagon, the State Department, the president. It came from the neural adviser. What you saw from bolton was trying to put pressure on the president , sometimes boxing him in to more bellicose positions,
more hawkish positions. This has been a fundamental question throughout the Trump Administration and that is to what extent is he going to be a traditional republican and what extent is he going to be an isolationist. Trumps impulses on this are clear. He wanted to draw down from afghanistan. He wanted to get out of certain wars. You saw that with syria as well. The president wanted to bring down troops there. Even though President Trump criticized President Obama for what trump said at the time was withdrawing from iraq too soon. The question of the hour is how fundamental is this split within the administration now or is it clear that the isolationists have won, and are there any counterweights to this bolton trump. Mike pence was on the other side of the afghanistan decision. Mike pence cannot be dismissed. He is a constitutionally ensconced figure. If he has disagreements, those cannot be dismissed by simply firing the Vice President. This gives the sense that the splits are real, theres serious debate about the course of certain foreign policies, and we need to figure out what that means. The president may be meeting with the iranians. You mentioned the United Nations meeting next week. The north koreans just last night suggested theyre willing to have a third or Fourth Meeting depending on how you count the one they had in the dmz. Thats after they sent projectiles into the ocean there. And then a question on what the next stages will be in the middle east, especially with netanyahu and israel right now talking about an exing more of the jordan valley. Tum multiwous time, different time, and we potentially have a new adviser coming no n to talk to the president. On the phone now, jeremy bash. Jeremy, john bolton came in
april 9, 2018. He was the third National Security adviser and of course doesnt need senate confirmation. So, another National Security adviser can be put quickly in place. But this is a real Turning Point for the administration going into an Election Year as to what he wants his policies to be and whether these high Profile Photo opportunities like the dmz meeting with kim jongun and what they were planning at camp david, whether this can replace real policy and what the pay out is. Thats right, andrea. The traditional role of a National Security adviser is to create a process by which all the stakeholders, chairman of the joint chiefs, Secretary Of State, they can all have a voice in the Policy Deliberations and Tee Up Decisions for the president. And traditionally, National Security advisers have kind of held their own opinions back. But what has happened here are two things. Number one is the process has
completely broken down. There is no National Security process to speak of. Its basically whatever the president wants on any given day and people try to carry out his wishes. And second is there have been real fundamental splits because without a process to preside over, john bolton was basically relegated to being in essence a Fox News Commentator, a hawker commentator inside the white house. And in that role, that pit him directly against the president s instincts. The president wanted to have photo ops, headlines regarding north korea, regarding the taliban. John bolton said we cant cozy up to a dictator in north korea. We cant give him a world platform without getting anything concrete in return. Likewise with respect to the afghanistan decision, i think john boltons deep concern which ive heard echoed across the National Security establishment is why are we having a negotiation in which the first thing being discussed is the withdrawal of American Military and intelligence officials. Shouldnt we first put the
Afghan Government at the table. We have it backwards. I think john bolton had strong disagreements and the president said get out of my way. Joining us here as well In Washington, evo. On the phone we have ned price. First to you, going into these meetings. The World Leaders are gathering in new york. They want to see what the president has to say. We have yet another shake up in the National Security team. Bolton is tweeting now, i offered to resign last night and the president said we would discuss it today. The president then got out ahead of john bolton by firing him on twitter. The president is his own adviser. He doesnt take advice from anybody and john bolton has found out he doesnt take advice from his National Security adviser. This is as youve said the third National Security adviser in
less than three years that the president has had. I wouldnt be surprised if the next one wont last long as the previous ones havent. And the reality is this, the president thinks he knows what he wants to do in International Affairs and Domestic Affairs and everything. He doesnt want a process. The one that jeremy just talked about of gathering the advisers together to help figure out what the policy should be and if there is such a process if there is a time as there was with afghanistan in the last couple of weeks. He will just make up his own mind and do his own thing. And i think World Leaders have now taken the measure of the man. Its why, for example, at the g7 they decided not to have a communique because they never knew whether the president would sign on and if he did sign on how long he would sign on for it. So, this is the world were living in, a president who decides on a whim almost what he wants, when he wants it, whether or not to have a meeting with the taliban in camp david or to have a meeting with the taliban
at camp david. Its all him doing his own thing and his own show, and john bolton is now the latest victim of it. But hes certainly not the first and he probably wont be the last. This comes at such a critical point though. Ned price, you worked in the c iksa. You worked in the National Security docouncil. Were not even talking about the peace plan where the adviser Jason Greenblatt quit on friday. And there is no middle east peace plan. Were going into an election in israel next week, september 17th, for netanyahu. Weve got iran on teetering as they are now violating the joint agreement on Nuclear Accords because they say the u. S. Has sanctioned them and they havent seen anything for their compliance for the 14 previous months. So, youve got a tinderbox in
iran, nothing to show in korea with major advances by the north koreans along the way as the president dismisses the importance of the short range missiles which do threaten our u. S. Bases, the japanese, and the south koreans. Where do we stand . Well, andrea, i think its beyond any single tactical or even regional issue. This was a question of differing world views, not only between john bolton and President Trump, his now former boss, but also between john bolton and much of the administration and even the republican establishment, not to mention the american people. Yes, its iran. Yes, its the middle east peace plan, the socalled deal of the century that i expect will now never see the light of day. Its north korea, afghanistan, venezuela. You get the impression and i think you alluded to this earlier, andrea that donald trump didnt know next to anything about john bolton before he picked him as his National Security adviser. Bolton literally as you said auditioned for the job on fox
news and trump liked the way that he talked about the world. President trump probably had no idea that just months before he picked him john bolton penned an oped famously titled in order to stop irans bomb bomb iran. This is a president that whether you believe his Campaign Pledges or not campaigned on a platform of getting out of frivolous wars. John bolton is not someone who is accountant of a lot of what this president has said he stood for and youre seeing that today. Bolton also criticized north korea for the short range missiles which the president had excused. And might be blamed as well for venezuela which is completely, you know, completely stalemated now with maduro still in power even though the u. S. Went out in
front and organized latin america and 50 other nations to support guaido, the National Assembly leader. Im just being told we have live pictures of Michael Flynn. Michael flynn is walking out of court. The irony here is that Michael Flynn was the first National Security adviser, fired in less than a month after serious questions were raised by then attorney general sally yates about the investigation into his connections to russia and whether he had lied, in fact, about his connections to russia during the transition. He had a Status Hearing in court today. He has an aggressive new attorney who is objecting to some of the agreements made by his previous private counsel. We know there is a question about his Plea Agreement and whether or not that is going to stand because he clearly has not given everything that the prosecutors hoped for. I think its safe to say Michael Flynn wont be coming back to fill the new role of National Security adviser. But i do want to go back to something ned said. This white house was well aware of the ideological differences between john bolton and donald trump. Bolton advocated for giving north korea a bloody nose and doing preemptive strikes against them instead of the contrary to the Diplomacy Trump was pushing for. There were all these side stories. Trump didnt like boltons mustache. The relationship seemed doom from the start but its not like you had tons of officials clamoring for the position. He had already been through two previous National Security officials, Michael Flynn and mcmaster. On every sungal major Foreign Policy crisis this administration has been dealing with, john bolton differed with the president from venezuela to north korea to iran. There were a number of missteps that the white house then came out and called out john bolton
and blamed him for those tactical missteps, for example, on venezuela it was really notable when bolton was the one advocating for the u. S. To go in there and help guaido stage a coupe against maduro. It flopped. Bolton was hawkish when it came to iran, put out a statement that made huge waves. Trump joked that bolton is going to get the u. S. Into a war. Again, this relationship had always faltered, and bolton and his tight team had constantly been pushing back against staffers inside the white house as my colleagues reported last week in piece On Afghanistan which pushed bolton out of the Negotiation Process with the taliban completely. We should point out that john bolton was in mongolia on a previously scheduled trip when the president made this surprise visit to the dmz, something that bolton clearly would not have
been in favor of and probably was not in favor of because it was a meeting with kim jongun despite the fact he was firing short range missiles and with nothing to show since singapore. They still have not gotten even an invenn tour of his weapons. Process matters when it comes to the National Security adviser. And the large team he assembled and professionals of intelligence officials and specialists in different regions of the world who work in the executive Office Building and work at the pleasure of the president working on policy, creating policy, options for the president. And the question here is what was getting to the president . What was getting to the oval office . Probably conflicting views between pompeo on one side and bolton on the other. Caller thats right, andrea. If you take afghanistan as an example, that person would bring together the Secretary Of State, secretary of defense, chairman
of the joint chiefs of staff and the leaders of the Intelligence Community to sit around the table and to devise options for the president , what to endorse with respect to the afghanistan peace process, when, how, and if to bring the taliban to the United States for some sort of announcement, how to involve the Afghan Government. Apparently none of these things were done or at least they werent totally wrung out and the president basically created a crisis and then tried to squelch the crisis by saying he cancelled the meeting at camp david which apparently there were deep divisions inside his own white house including the Vice President about. And with good reason. Because again to offer a grand stage for the taliban and then to negotiate the withdrawal of the u. S. Forces before even the Afghan Government was involved shows the complete and utter disregard for their perspective of many in the administration and a breakdown in process. So, i think this is one example. North korea represents another example. I dont think john bolton could
have been happy with the way trump has cozied up Vladimir Putin, denigrated nato, has tried to bring russia back to the g7. Im not sure a trade war with china is in the vision of somebody like john bolton. There were many flash points for this to break down. We should point out our colleague Washington Post robert costa saying bolton just communicated to him that he resigned and was not fired. So, you have even a disagreement over what happened here. Lindsey graham has reacted, one of the president s strongest supporters on capitol hill. Every president needs to have confidence in their National Security adviser. I like john bolton. I think he sees the world for what it is. Ive always had a similar view of the threats that we face. But the personal relationship between the president and National Security adviser is
important. I think the view that theres some public discussions about bolton being on the other side and meeting with the taliban probably was a bridge too far. I dont know what happened there, but the bottom line is i appreciate what john has done for the country for a long period of time and the president will now get a chance to pick a National Security adviser he has more confidence in. Jim, if youre still there, i want you to bring another issue here. There have been leaks that not only bolton but that Vice President pence disagreed with the president On Afghanistan, disagreed with mike pompeo. It struck me those leaks since the pence team rarely leaks and certainly doesnt leak about private communications with the president and i know the Vice President doesnt state his views in National Security meetings with the other people present as many Vice President s dont. They do that privately with the president if they disagree. This could be an issue where bolton went too far. In all these stories that percolated In Washington the last couple of days, on nbc news, cbs and others, cnn, bolton is the Vice President disagreed with the president for the camp david plan. Seems to me that invoking Vice President pence who said those reports were not true, hes made that clear last night in North Carolina. It could be that bolton went too far in trying to express an alliance in the Vice President against the president of the United States. Yeah, theres one thing that any Vice President s not going to want to do and thats show any daylight between the president and him or herself. And thats probably right, andrea. You know, Vice President pence much like Vice President biden for us and obama is one of those guys whos going to shut the door privately and tell the president what he thinks. Hes not going to do it through a process. Hes the one constitutionally protected person here who cant be fired so hes going to be very, very careful about how he does this. Boltons entire job was to run a real process, and a process that brought everyone together, to bring recommendations to the president. And the truth is there was a very, very big disagreement between him, the Secretary Of State. And to fight those disagreements, it looks like john bolton decided to bring the Vice President into this. When you have the Vice President angry at you and the Secretary Of State in a donald trump world that craziness rules, youre likely going to get squeezed out. And that seems like its what happened here. Going forward, you know, the question now andrea is whos stupid enough to take this job . Who wants to be the fourth and fifth National Security adviser . Were sitting here on the fourth one in under three years. And you know, looking at the huge divisions inside the administration, looking to the point that you made earlier that the president just wants to make his own policy. He doesnt want to hear dissenting views. He doesnt want to see a process. I cant imagine who in gods name is going to take this job. And whoever it is is probably going to understand the truth which is your only job is to suck up to the president. And the moment he gets sick of you, the jackals around him will come out and finish you. And that seems like its what happened to the National Security adviser john bolton this morning. I would make a bet here that whoever does take this job will be somebody who can get along with mike pompeo because he seems to be now the biggest figure in the room. Joining me now, speaking of large figures, ambassador ryan crocker, a venerated former ambassador to afghanistan, iraq, and other countries, a diplomat at spokane university. Looking at this from afar, have you ever seen a National Security team in such disarray over major issues when we have american Men And Women In Conflicts Around The World . This is really of great concern to all of us, i think,
andrea. No, i cannot remember another time when there was so much dissension, such a lack of coordination. Just this latest episode with the taliban and camp david is a case and point. And just as you were saying earlier, the role of the National Security adviser is about process. Its about reconciling views within the administration. Its about access to the president. The best National Security advisers in modern times have been pretty low key people. George h. W. Bush, steve hadley for george w. Bush. Can anyone be given the tendency of the president to take advice only from himself . When you cite brent skocoft
and others in that category, they did not become figures like john bolton. They were people who were collaborative, who brought different points of view in, and especially helped a president who has no experience in the military and politics. The first president who has no experience in the government or military. I want to also talk about afghanistan because that seems to be the precipitating issue here. And perhaps you might agree with john bolton on this one issue which is that bringing the Taliban To Camp David for an agreement that had not been signed on or negotiated with the Afghan Government to be a Photo Opportunity with the president of the United States the week of 9 11 was bad on so many different grounds. Well, thats exactly right, andrea. That is beyond bad to, as you say, the timing, the symbolism, shaking hands with the taliban on the anniversary of 9 11. That is not a place any
president should ever go or anywhere close to it. These negotiations have been flawed from the beginning. We were talking to the taliban, the Afghan Government isnt even in the room. So, i am glad in that one sense that at least the president has for the moment put a stop to what was essentially an american surrender process. It was all about us getting our troops out and letting whatever happens in afghanistan happen. So, the Silver Lining here may be that a fundamentally flawed Negotiating Process is now at least on hold. And just very quickly, does that fall at the feet of the Secretary Of State . That as well as north korea . Well, here again is an interesting point about National Security advisers. Again, brent, steve, very low key individuals. But another quite successful National Security adviser was anything but, and that was henry
kissinger. Both as Secretary Of State and as National Security adviser. So, depends on the personality of the president to a fundamental degree. For kissinger it was Richard Nixon of course who kind of knew how the world worked. President trump does not. So, good luck to whoever comes next in that very hot seat. Ambassador crocker, thank you so much. Thanks for being with us today. And ambassador eva, i know youve got other commitments. Let me ask you about the next step in afghanistan and with nato. We have nato troops on the ground here. Now theres no backstop against a precipitous withdrawal from afghanistan which is exactly what happened in syria with some dire effects for our allies there on the ground as general mattis certainly was warning. I think as ambassador crocker
said, one problem with the negotiations was that the Afghan Government wasnt a participant. The other problem was that the entire focus was on reducing american troops and reducing the threat to the United States homeland when in fact on 9 11, nato invoked for the first time in its history and the only time in its history article 5, the collective defense provision of the nato treaty and has since deployed troops there. Up to this very day, there are still 8,000 nonu. S. Nato troops in afghanistan. When that unfortunate incident happened with the american soldier being killed, the romanian soldier was killed at the same time. This has been a nato operation from day one. The idea that we should be negotiating without any regard for those who have suffered as greatly as us, who have also been attacked by isis which is now active in afghanistan, it just demonstrates that there
really hasnt been a process or much thinking to the afghan policy, but more largely just demonstrates that people are free wheeling in this administration. Its not just that john bolton wasnt doing the honest brokering that a National Security adviser does, its that everyone is doing their own thing without much coordination from the president to the Secretary Of State to the National Security adviser who became his own diplomat. Henry kissinger said the only way you can avoid confrontations and disagreements between the National Security adviser and the Secretary Of State, is if its the same person which of course Henry Kissinger once was. That may be where we end up. Maybe we get mike pompeo not only as Secretary Of State but also as National Security adviser. Joining many e now is Tammy Duckworth, a wounded combat veteran who was one of the first
women to fly Combat Missions in the iraq war. Thank you very much. You know, senator duckworth, im just kind of actually gob smacked by what has happened. Were just hearing from peter baker that john bolton has texted him saying he offered to resign and resigned today. So, that version is differing very much from the Firing Version that comes from the president. Where does this leave the troops having served in iraq and knowing the troops in afghanistan as a member of armed services, how does this make people on the front lines feel when they see such disarray In Washington . Well, theyre going to feel stranded, andrea. They are doing their job. Weve asked them to step up, to leave their families behind, to go into harms way and defend america and kwet are the top leadership from the commander in chief to his advisers cant get
their act together and cant come up with a cohesive approach to what were doing in the middle east whether its iraq or afghanistan or syria. This is a real problem. Troops are in harms way right now and we expect them to get up and do their jobs and yet we dont have a president or a National Security adviser who are willing to do their jobs. Ask you about the excuse the president gave over the weekend. He said he cancelled the talks cancelled the Camp David Meeting because of the death of the Service Member ortiz on thursday. I believe he was killed by the taliban as well as 11 other people including a romanian officer or Service Member. But in fact, there had been a Service Member killed the week before, an american Service Member killed the week before. And days after that, ambassador khalilzad was sent back to finalize the deal and arrange the meetings. So, they did not cancel the meeting when one Service Member was killed. It seemed to be an excuse and a
kwukly arranged meeting to dover for the return of his remains to his family. Tell me how you react to all of that. It seems as though the Service Members death was being used as cover for the failed policy and for the fact that the Afghan Government was not going to participate in what looked like a charade at camp david. I react with disgust to the commander in chief to use a fallen Service Member for his political gain should be shocking but its not shocking for the president. Hes shown he has no respect for our servicemen or women and the fallen. Hes been known to insult the Service Members of our heroic dead. Frankly what was he doing inviting taliban members to camp david anyway . What was he thinking on the anniversary of 9 11. Its an insult to the First Responders to all The Americans who died on 9 11. Frankly its shocking he would do it in the first place. I support negotiating with the taliban, but we need to do it as part of a Coalition Force to figure out a way to be able to get troops out of afghanistan. But to bring the Taliban To Camp David and the ultimate diplomatic meeting place, a place of honor if you get invited to that, is shameful. I want to ask you about this withdrawal schedule because the president seems so eager to withdraw and john bolton was one of those saying too soon, too fast, we need to work this out. It seems theres no one else willing to stand up to the president in this National Security team and say this doesnt work. Mattis quit over this regarding syria, but afghanistan is analogous, is it not . It very much is. Weve learned over time that any time you put a date for withdrawing troops is a way to tell the enemies this is when
america will be gone. Thats not the way youre supposed to do it. We need to be entering into serious negotiations not as a lone wolf but with our allies who sood to our left and right and had our back all these years. And i think this is where secretary mattis, you know, he said this. And he quit because the president neglected our allies. We could not have been able to accomplish what weve accomplished had our allies not been there. They stood up on 9 11 to support us and we cant abandon our role. That said, we need to negotiate and get out of afghanistan, but we cant do it by ourselves and we shouldnt be doing it by inviting the Taliban To Camp David. Senator Tammy Duckworth and i dont need to remind any of us certainly that you have made enormous sacrifices in service of the country in war. Thank you very much. Thank you for your insights today. Joining me now nbc news
correspondent ken dilanian. What we had originally planned to talk about with both of you is this russian spy mystery. Ken you were in the middle of it. Let me go to frank. This is another issue, the relationship with Vladimir Putin front and center now as we talk about a highly placed former russian official brought back by the cia out of fear that there had been Media Reports in 2016 that the intelligence about putins ownership of the plot against the American Election came from putin himself. And that was based on apparently a very good source who may well have been this man. We dont know. That of course all called today by the spokesman of the kremlin as pulp fiction. Frank, where do we stand with Vladimir Putin in the midst of this spy case, this spy saga. Well, look, we can choose to
believe the Chem Lykremlin Lyin can choose to understand how the Intelligence Community works. I think those who read the Mueller Report closely like many of us did understood that the level of detail in volume one having to deal with the russian interference with the election had to have come from deep, deep sources, whether they were human or whether they were whats called Signal Intercepts or both. I think the manifestation has come into reality that the likelihood that one human source involved in that has been pulled out of his position in russia and now appears reportedly to be inside the United States. Now, andrea i just want to quickly address a lot of people im hearing saying we shouldnt be talking about this issue. This endangers this person. My response to that is two things. One, the russians, im convinced after 25 years in counterintelligence, the Russian Services knew exactly who this person was, knew he had been
essentially exfiltrated and absolutely if nbc news can figure out where he was located rest assured the Russian Intelligence Services knew where he was located ch t lets put aside the issue that somehow this man has been outed or exposed. Lets look at the reality that one in the u. S. Government chose to leak this to various media outlets. That is what fascinates me. Why now . Why are we hearing this now and whats the motivation behind the leakage . You went to the mans house, the man we believe to be this gentleman. His name has been revealed by moscow. Fwhoe were not using it at the request of the government. Other media have. You went to this house in the suburban washington area. Tell us what happened. Yeah, andrea. I went there and i cant even explain why i did because the u. S. Government says that revealing those details would contribute to revealing this mans identity. But there were certain facts about this guy that made us believe that he could be the source that was being reported on in the news media. And it turned out he was living in his true name and owned a house in his name in the washington, d. C. Area. I drove out there to that house and knocked on the door hoping he would talk to us and explain even if we didnt identify what the truth was to these reports. He wasnt home. Nobody was home. I walked back to my car, sitting in my car, and a saw an suv come screaming up the road and it parked nose to nose with my car. I was a little bit rattled. I stepped out of my car and leaned over and asked these gentleman if i could help them in any way. They said can we help you. I was trying to get information out of them. They asked me who i was. I explained who i was. It was pretty clear to me and others who were aware of the situation that these were u. S. Government agents who had been triggered, somehow realized that someone was knocking on the door of this person they were protecting. Later when we went to the u. S. Government about this, they asked us to please not disclose this persons name. And they made it pretty clear he would not be living in that house hence forth. And as frank said, its absolutely the case that the russians were aware of this person. Hes in public records. They knew when he disappeared. They knew the situation. But what u. S. Officials are telling us is that its more dangerous as they see it when the news media is reporting on a former russian official who spied for the cia. Its goating putin, its poking the bear, and theyre concerned that could increase the danger for this person so theyre moving him to a different location. Frank, we knew what happened to the former russian official who was murdered in the uk. So, how safe can he be anywhere in america from the russians . Well, im sure that the cia and working with the fbi are going to now implement security measures that are far greater than they had. Understand that typically great deference is given to the actual assets choices. Many of these recruitments in place we call them choose not to continue to live a lie. They want to start life over. They want to live in true name, and they dont want the challenges for their family of trying to go under some clandestine persona. Now that may change. I dont know. But theres another possibility here which is that if this man, if the reporting is accurate that this man represents the truth about putin and putins interference with the election and desire to help trump, he may become someone that congressional committees become interested in speaking with. This could cause him to enter an entirely new phase. But theres also the greater concern within the Intelligence Community that if this happens to a high level source this is going to have a Chilling Effect on future development of sources. Weve got to watch this play out closely. Frank and ken. Ken, i know youre in front of the u. S. Courthouse there because you were there for the mike flynn Status Hearing. So, theres a lot going on in the National Security field today and its just another tuesday In Washington in the trump era. Thank you very much. Ken dilanian, hans nicoles at the white house. We understand Peter Alexander has received a text from john bolton. I offered to resign last night. He never asked for it directly or indirectly. I slept on it and resigned this morning. Ive heard similar claims from Rex Tillerson in the past. Such is the life of the National Security team under donald trump. Whats interesting here is that theres a difference
between what john bolton is saying. He resigned. It was never offered. It was never discussed. He was the one who brought this up and it directly contradicts what hogan gidley is saying that the president asked for this and this was driven by the president. Now, this could seem slightly petty, but i think this has implications for a couple reasons. That is that ambassador bolton appears to be the First Administration official departing trying to establish his own narrative upon his departure. Remember of all the officials weve had leave this administration, none of them have really given us a good inside look of what its actually like serving in the National Security team for President Donald Trump. John bolton might be different. When you read the tone of his emails, you see the fact hes texting reporters, engaging with reporters, suggested to rob costa hell have more to say. We could get john boltons view of the story. Up to now it has been a cone of
silence for Administration Officials no matter how ingloriously theyve been dismissed theyve been silence. John bolton may break that mold. With the major exception of jim mattiss pointed Resignation Letter over syria which the president didnt read it first and understood after he saw the Media Coverage that it was a pointed resignation over the syrian withdrawal, and that infuriated him. I suspect we could move in that direction. I think what weve seen so far between these two men is some degree of comedy and collegiality with President Trump thanking john bolton for his service and bolton giving a short if pointed but still polite response. I think as you said john bolton appears to be laying the groundwork to mount his own defense. And clearly he is someone who has a very different world view from President Trump, from others within this
administration, and frankly from the rest of the american people. And i suspect bolton will be trying to resuscitate or rehabilitate his image which right now is one of failure, failure across any number of fronts as National Security adviser from afghanistan that weve talked about to north korea to failing to come even close to the socalled better deal with iran to it seems the socalled deal of the century that now will never see the light of day in an effort to bring peace between israelis and palestinians. I think what were seeing may be the calm before the past. I think if past is precedent we will see especially President Trump pursue someone he only months ago chose as his National Security adviser. And jim and jacqueline here, lets put on the board some of the people who have been dismissed or departed or resigned. Its a long list. Its almost too big for the space. And the print is very small. But you know some of the names. Jim, can you imagine trying to run a white house where you as the president says well i like to have acting they have so many Acting Cabinet Officials who cant have their own chiefs of staff, who cant have their own team, who cant have real power because as you know they were acting. We had an acting Defense Secretary for six months or series of Acting Defense Secretaries for six months. How do you run an operation like that . You dont. Thats the problem. There is no process inside the Trump White House. And once you get there, you realize very quickly that youre going to spend your time defending yourself from attacks from colleagues and from other folks. So, thats why youre kind of getting this third and fourth level of operative who goes into the white house. And the only people who stay are the people who tell the president of the United States what he wants to hear. You know, when i was in the white house, President Obama said to me once i dont pay you
to tell me when im right because everyone does that. I pay you to tell me when you disagree. Thats the kind of process any president needs and hes not getting it. The numbers you are an unprecedented amount of people going back and forth inside this administration. You have Cabinet Secretaries not confirmed, no real processes happening in the National Security and Economic Councils and you have a president who seems to enjoy all of this because it gets him what he wants and ha he wants is to make the decisions by himself and quietly be his own counsel. And when he has terrible ideas like on the idea of putting the taliban in camp david, you know, if you disagree with him like john bolton did and you do it publicly you get fired for it. Whoever comes next is going to be even worse of a process person than john bolton was. Briefly, jaclyn, the turnover is just unprecedented. Yeah. I think jims exactly right going into 2020 with the
president having campaigned on extracting the u. S. From our foreign entanglements its going to be important for him to pick someone who coalesces to exactly what he wants. That line in jim mattis Resignation Letter after he resigned over the sudden draw down in afghanistan and syria really stands out to me, he wrote, you should find someone whose views better align with yours because jim is right, this president does not want to hear criticism as much as he says he loves to collect contrasting views, but especially when that criticism leaks out into the open and makes the administration look just as tumultuous as it actually is. Peter baker is joining me now, msnbc political analyst, chief White House Correspondent for the New York Times, you were in the chair as we were beginning the show to talk about other issues, and obviously the john bolton firing or resignation, as you will, took precedence. You ran to do your reporting for
the New York Times. What have you learned . Sorry about that. Only in trump world. I know. Whats fascinating we were waiting for bolton to brief us and basically a half hour, 1 30 scheduled to do a briefing with mike pompeo and Steve Mnuchin and hes out. This is the way the Trump White House works sometimes, you never know. Look, you know, the president obviously talk about john bolton giving a somewhat different versions of his departure, in any case it does reflect the fundamental schism over these approaches to Foreign Policy. Shortly after boltons resignation was announced i talked to somebody close to him, that point of view offered to me, while john bolton was the National Security advisor no bad deals were made. Thats the view that john bolton and his allies have here. His job was to stop the president from making bad deals. The other side will tell you
that bolton never got on board with the president s policies and continued to fight them even after decisions were made and therefore he wasnt a good member emeb of the team. Its a sign of where this president s Foreign Policy apparatus is these days, hes going to be on his fourth National Security advisor in less than thee years. Peter, as weve been discussing here, what also seemed apparent is that bolton disagreed with the dmz meeting he was in mongolia, disagreed with the north korea policy and this afghan camp david proposal, mike pompeo had ownership of both of those things and certainly on iran pompeo and bolton were hardliners, but bolton was not happy with the suggestion the president was open to, without preconditions, meeting with rouhani or other iranian leaders, perhaps as soon as two weeks from now in new york at the United Nations meetings. So is mike pompeo The Last Man Standing and only man that counts on National Security . He really is at this point. You know, he has shown an ability to find a way to work with this president and keep this president happy with his work even where they might, in fact, have different points of view on some things, where they have different Points Of View Pompeo has found a way to reconcile himself to the president s desires in a way that doesnt obviously aggravate him the way it has with other officials. Secretary es per at the Defense Department is also an ally of mike pompeos. Well see who gets picked as john boltons replacement. Clearly youre right, he is by far the most important person in this Foreign Policy team. And also at this stage, there were reports that both the Vice President and bolton had disagreed with the camp david proposal. It seemed invoking the name of the Vice President was a dangerous thing for whoever leaked that because the Vice President does not like to be publicly on the other side or in
opposition to the president at all and, in fact, strongly last night in North Carolina denied any disagreement. Well, youre exactly right. The pence camp took that as a leak from boltons shop to look for allies to basically put pence in the same boat with him as being against this Camp David Meeting. They say, in fact, that was a misrepresentation of his point of view, that he didnt like speak up at meetings and object to it, advice was given to the president one on one, as it usually is. They didnt deny that he had his qualms or concerns about the Camp David Meeting, at least in terms of the opt picks, but they saw that story yesterday as an effort by bolton to protect his turf, find allies in his fight against the afghanistan peace deal and they didnt take it well. And where does this leave iran . Well the iran policy . I think youre right. Pompeo is also a hardliner on iran but hes been more willing to go along with the president s
back and forth stutter step kind of ideas about diplomacy. He did give a Speech Saying that the president would meet without preconditions at one point and would go against the grain you would think for mike pompeo but hes willing to accept the president s direction on this. I think, you know, iran is a very, you know, Open Question right now. The president doesnt have a win yet from these deals he wants. Not with north korea, not with afghanistan, maybe he will get one with iran. Peter baker, thanks so much. I know youre answering a lot of calls, we thank you for your reporting. Well have much more ahead. Stay with us. Well be right back. At verizon, were building the most powerful 5g Experience for america. Thats why the nfl chose verizon. Because they need the massive capacity of 5g with ultra wideband, so more screaming, streaming, posting fans. Can experience 5g all at once. This is happening in 13 stadiums all across the country. Now if verizon 5g can do this for the nfl. Imagine what it can do for you
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