trump following soon after. going head to head tonight in a showdown filled with political land mines that could be hazardous to both campaigns. we will have full team coverage with live reports from atlanta. a detailed review of the last showdown. a look back at presidential moments with michael beschloss. the supreme court releasing that idaho abortion case, similar to restrictions in six other states that was mistakenly posted online yesterday, confirming the court will not decide yet whether hospitals have to provide emergency abortions preserving the current federal requirement they do for now, but sparking a furious dissent from justice sotomayor. a damage settlement overturned, meaning years of negotiations have to start over. ♪♪ good day, everyone. i'm andrea mitchell in washington. we are just hours away from what could be a turning point. until now, it has been a closely fought race between president biden and former president trump. that could change tonight. this will be the first chance since 2020 to see the two candidates facing off on the same stage and in a format that includes muted microphones to eliminate interruptions. this is to prevent a verbal shouting match. top of mind for viewers, according to "the new york times" sienna poll, voters' concerns over donald trump's temperament and joe biden's mental acuity hanging over the candidates. we begin with vaughn hillyard and monica alba. vaughn, talk about the stakes and the format, because it's different than anything we have seen before. >> reporter: the stakes are so high. donald trump did not debate during any of the republican debates in which he was facing a number of primary challengers. then you have joe biden, who the last time he went on the debate stage was against donald trump there just 12 days before the 2020 election. in an immediate ecosystem, which is only multiplied over the last four years with right wing outlets for donald trump to turn to, and more progressive outlets for joe biden to turn to, most americans have had few opportunities to see either of these men in long, extended, unvarnished selves. this is a moment over 90 minutes with two commercial breaks in which they are going to have the opportunity to do just that. folks have undoubtedly seen on social media or depending on their news outlets the short clips, often misleading, of joe biden, the current president. this is where for the biden campaign, this is the opportunity to make the case, much like they contend they did at the state of the union and like he did four years ago when donald trump was already doubting joe biden's ability to go on the stage in 2020, the opportunity for the current president to make it clear that he has the ability to go serve a second term. on the other side, for donald trump, this is a moment outside of kristin welker's interview nearly ten months ago and a cnn town hall more than a year ago, donald trump has not subjected himself to much pushback or tough questioning over the course of the last four years, since the january 6 capitol attack. instead, turning to right wing media. he didn't even face questions during the republican primary from any of his republican challengers. for donald trump, it has been years since he has gone toe to toe with somebody really putting him on the line like this. for both men, four months out from the general election, a lot is at stake as millions of americans will be tuning in to this 90-minute program. >> vaughn, you will be all over it, as is monica alba. the trump camp will launch two new ads. you have a preview of a new biden campaign video published ahead of the debate. serving as the campaign's prebuttal of what's going to happen tonight. >> reporter: one they hope will feature a message tonight by president biden on stage in atlanta. that is one that he has been making the case for throughout hit term in office. but the biden campaign is going to be using the words of donald trump's own former aides, former top advisors, former cabinet officials to try to really put this message together. that is one that they argue, again using the words of people that had been very close to donald trump in the past, including his former vice president mike pence, that essentially donald trump now, the biden campaign argues, is unfit for office and is a threat to democracy. as you see there in this video, they are specifically using the language and the own conclusions of those who were in the former president's inner circle during his time in the white house and who have since come out and spoken very critically about him. this is part of a larger strategy and an ad blitz that they were rolling out today to try to amplify this overall message to voters about a very stark contrast between what president biden will paint tonight as a dark past that could become a dark future if donald trump wins back white house. >> vaughn, monica, thanks to both of you. joining us from atlanta is michael tyler, communication director for the biden-harris re-election campaign. thanks for joining us. >> thank you for having me on. happy debate day. >> let me start out with a new "washington post" poll of swing state voters showing that they trust mr. trump more than president biden to handle threats to democracy. this is 38% to 29%. how do you deal with that? >> listen, i think you are going to see exactly how we handle it tonight on the debate stage where donald trump is going to take the stage as a convicted felon who is convicted the same reason he sat by on january 6 after he encouraged a mob to storm the capitol, in an attempt to overthrow a free and fair election, because he is willing do anything so he can hold on to power. that is what is going to be in front of the american people for them to see tonight. it's what this campaign is going to continue to relentlessly hammer home in the coming months. you talked about the ad out today. people who know donald trump the best, who spent the most time with him, understand after the 2020 election, this is a guy who snapped and is increasingly unhinged, who is running a campaign based upon revenge, retribution. donald trump has not been in the limelight since he left, after he lost the 2020 election. tonight is one of the first nights the american people get to see donald trump, a mainstream audience see him perform. they will reject what they see like in 2020. that's what the american people will see tonight and what we are excited to show for the remainder of the campaign. >> how do you deal with all of the pre-messaging that joe biden, if he comes out strongly as he did at the state of the union, is pumped up? all of that false messaging about doping, even being on a sugar high from mountain dew said one missouri congressman. >> yeah. obviously, it's absurd. this is what the trump team does, because they know they don't want the conversation to actually be about the issues. they know that on all the issues that matter most to the american people, donald trump comes out as a loser. they know if the conversation is about donald trump's role in overturning roe v. wade and the extreme abortion bans that play out across the country, donald trump loses. if the conversation is about the failed economic approach that donald trump wants to return us to but we do nothing but give tax breaks and give-outs to the super wealthy, donald trump loses. they know if it's about the threat that donald trump poses to our democracy, if they are able to hear -- the american people are able to hear what he has been saying at the rallies about his promises to pardon the insurrectionists of january 6 or his call for a bloodbath if he doesn't win, or his promise to rule as a dictator if he wins, that he loses on the debate stage. they will do all this nonsense. we expect more after the debate. that conversation on the issues that matter most is what they're going to see on the debate stage. >> donald trump will bring up hunter biden and other emotional and tough issues for the president, just as trying to trigger him and rattle him. the president will bring up the convictions. are you also expecting that he would bring up some of the things that donald trump has said at rallies? he is primed to come out as the assured, the performer, seasoned, in a tv studio and acting presidential. what do you do with that? >> yeah, i don't think that we're going to expect to see the same donald trump who you see at the maga rallies. he spent the vast majority of this campaign, since he launched it, screaming into an echo chamber of maga extremism. he knows for one of the first times he will speak to a mainstream audience. the problem for trump is that when he takes the stage, it's not a matter of his demeanor. the problem is going to be everything that he is talking about on the debate stage. he made it very clear that he intends to govern in a far more extreme manner than when he last held power. the things that the president is going to call donald trump to task for are that extremism. donald trump's plan to enact a national abortion ban in his second term. the failed economic approach he wants to return to if he is able to regain power. his pledge to rule as a dictator on day one. that's stuff trump said on the stump to his base. the president will make sure the vast majority of the american people hear it tonight. >> michael, can you clarify? we don't have total clarity on this. will the first lady, close friends and advisors be there? there's no audience. is there space for family and friends? >> i don't have anything to read out for you there. what i can say is that the american people will absolutely see what they came to tune in for, which is a contrast between president joe biden, who wakes up every day fighting for the american people, and donald trump, who will take that debate stage fighting for himself. that's what the american people are going to see. >> i'm going to count that as not answering the question. if that's one of the secrets of tonight, okay. we will be watching. michael taylor, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> tonight, special coverage and analysis of the first presidential debate hosted by cnn. watch tonight beginning at 7:00 eastern on msnbc. at 9:00, watch the debate right here. stay tuned for analysis and coverage all night long. the strategy session next. i will be joined by kristin welker who moderated the last debate with what she's looking for tonight. that's next when "andrea mitchell reports" is back just 90 seconds. you are watching msnbc. disease, skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. control of crohn's means everything to me. 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(inaudible sounds) (elevator doors opening) wait, there's an elevator? only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, ♪ ♪ liberty. ♪ you never asked that question. by the way, so far, i respect very much the way you are handling this, i have to say. somebody should ask the question. he goes for a year, there will be -- >> we do have a number of -- we have a number of topics. we will get to them. >> the same with socialized medicine. >> your response? >> my response is, people deserve to have affordable health care, period. >> that was october 2020, the last time joe biden and donald trump were in the same room together. kristin welker moderating that final debate, managing to keep them on track and maintaining decorum instead of another verbal food fight. you don't need a mute button if you have kristin welker in charge. she's joining me now. i'm sure that the moderators tonight, who are both great correspondents, will handle it the same way. you didn't even need the mute button. it was a reaction to the first debate last time. the food fight. let's talk about what it feels like to be on that stage, the pressure. how do you moderate a debate between these two men, not knowing which candidate is going to go off on the other, looking at the trigger points? what are you tracking tonight? what are you looking for? >> andrea, it's a great question. thank you for playing that clip. i'm going to look for a couple of things. i do think the format that you mentioned is going to be center stage, as much as these two candidates. the fact that both candidates will be muted when the other one is speaking, that is going to be significant. i should say that during my debate, which was the second debate. it came on the heels of the first debate in 2020 when then president donald trump was bombastic. he interrupted then vice president joe biden multiple times. more than 140 times to be exact. he believed that that backfired. his campaign believed at the time that that backfired. i've been talking to allies close to him that say that debate still sits heavily and weighs heavily on him because he knows that it backfired on him. he showed up at the second debate, the debate i moderated, he did have a more measured tone. i was feisty, but he allowed joe biden to speak. i'm getting signals that's the plan. will he stick to that? in terms of the rules, we got a little bit of a preview because while the mikes were not cut off throughout the entirety of the debate that i moderated, they were cut off at the conclusion of the two-minute opening statements at the beginning of each segment. that did allow for the conversation to move forward in the beginning of each segment. then they were open during the open discussion portion of the debate. i think the question, andrea, will any of that sort of raw back and forth that you just played get muted if the mics are cut off throughout the course of the debate? we will have to wait and see. for his part, joe biden is aiming to show strength, he is aiming to answer and counter voters who have questions about whether he has what it takes to serve another four years in office. it's safe to say the stakes could not be higher for these two men tonight heading into this debate. >> are you surprised -- a little bit surprises -- i asked michael tyler about this before. understandably, he didn't want to deal with it head on. are you surprised that in the new "washington post" poll, more people think that donald trump would preserve democracy than joe biden? it was donald trump who was involved in january 6th and the attempt to overturn an election. >> that's why it's surprising. what have we heard from former president donald trump since january 6? since he entered this campaign, quite frankly, he has tried to make the case, including when i interviewed him back in september, that it's joe biden who is the threat to democracy. he makes that argument for a range of different reasons, including because of the criminal cases that he is facing. of course, those cases were brought by federal grand juries and, of course, he was just convicted in a new york courtroom. that was brought by new york authorities, not, of course, by the justice department. the bottom line is, clearly what you have is people believing a set of facts based on where they get their news, how they consume their news. that's why tonight i think is going to be so significant. undoubtedly, president biden is going to try to make what he sees as a critical case, that it's donald trump who is the threat to democracy because of january 6, because he has yet to concede the last election, which is the hallmark of this democracy. how does he use it? when did he does it? i think that's a key focus for president biden tonight to try to shift some of those poll numbers around and gain ground. >> it's a good point that you are making that people have been watching the niche media. in this case, this debate is going to be available on so many platforms. the facts will be out there for people to see. how they interpret it is another question. >> you are right about that. that's where the role of the moderators is going to be so significant. their role is not necessarily to fact check but to make sure that they are guiding the conversation in a way that allows each candidate to fact check each other. of course, the post analysis will be significant. we will be on hand to do fact checking. >> of course. we will be watching. thanks so much. it's great to see you. >> you too. court order. legal insight and analysis on two big decisions from the high court today. you are watching "andrea mitchell reports." this is msnbc. we say not today. tylenol 8 hour arthritis pain has two layers of relief. the first is fast, the second is long-lasting. we give you your day back, so you can give it everything. tylenol. number one doctor recommended for arthritis pain. smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection, liver or kidney problems, high triglycerides, or had a vaccine or plan to. sotyktu is a tyk2 inhibitor. tyk2 is part of the jak family. it's not known if sotyktu has the same risks as jak inhibitors. find what plaque psoriasis has been hiding. there's only one sotyktu, so ask for it by name. so clearly you. sotyktu. ah, these bills are crazy. she has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? 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they are kicking the can down the road. justice sotomayor was furious about not taking a stand. >> yeah. you are right to say that technically while idaho women can obtain abortions in emergency situations, now under this ruling, whether or not doctors will be available to provide them is another question. justice brown-jackson points this out -- >> sorry, it was justice jackson, not sotomayor, thank you. >> her dissent, she says idaho's doctors have to decide whether to provide emergency medical care in the midst of highly charged legal circumstances with no guarantee that this will be maintains. yes, right now, as a matter of law, they can perform those abortions. what happens when the lower court proceedings take up again? what happens if idaho wins the day? can they go back in time and prosecute people who were performing abortions during the time the injunction was in place? it's a legal mess. that's why even though this is a temporary reprieve, it could be seen as a win in some respect for the anti-abortion right. by punting the issue, the uncertainty is the win. when there's uncertainty, where the risk of performing abortion is high either criminally or in terms of medical licenses, that's when practitioners and health care organizations don't provide services. in those circumstances, the access is not there. >> yeah. six other states have those same kind of very severe restrictions as idaho. the doctors and health care professionals are understandably afraid of legal ramifications given all of the stress and the threats in the system. paul butler, talk to me about the purdue pharma ruling and this massive bankruptcy decision that was going to have $6 billion for the victims of the opioid crisis. now they have to start over again. it took years to negotiate this. >> they declared bankruptcy in 2019. they were being sued for claiming it had fuelled the opioid crisis with its advertising. there's this carefully negotiated deal where the family would pay almost $6 billion to people who were suing pharma. they weren't parties to this bankruptcy agreement. the agreement shielded them from liability. it said that they couldn't be sued. today, the court said that that violated the bankruptcy law, can't be used to give immunity to somebody who is not a party to the actual proceeding. >> it was an unusual split. it was 5-4, but with the justices on all sides of this. >> yeah, interesting lineup. we have one of the most progressive members, justice jackson, aligned with alito and thomas. you have the other two progressives voting with the chief justice and kavanaugh. what this underscores is the tragedy of this case. in the oral argument, justice kagan said this isn't about protecting the rich family. they are probably the most hated family in america. this is about getting money to the families who need the money right now. >> lisa, let's talk also about the immunity case. we still are waiting for it. i don't know what that signals. it could come tomorrow or monday. >> it could. it could even come later. the chief justice traditionally takes the bench and tells everyone when the final decision date is going to be the day before. he hasn't done it yesterday. we know there will be decisions monday. let's watch tomorrow to see whether he tells us monday is the end or whether he doesn't, which means there could be more beyond monday as well. >> buckle your seat belts. thanks very much. meeting the moment. nbc presidential historian michael beschloss joining me with an historic perspective on the big night in politics tonight. you are watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. 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it was nearly 50 years ago when ford had a lot at stake as he faces carter. going into the second debate in october 1976, ford cut into carter's lead in the polls and then he said this. >> there is no soviet domination of eastern europe, and there never will be under a ford administration. >> at the time, of course, eastern europe was very much confined behind the soviet union's iron curtain, had been for decades. joining us now, presidential historian michael beschloss. i know president ford didn't mean it that way. but that's the way it came out. it changed history, because it changed the course of the campaign. >> carter won the presidency in 1976, as you know, by a hair breadth. if ford had not made a statement like that, he probably would have been re-elected president and the arc of history would have changed. what he was trying to say is the united states will not accept domination. but people heard him say, soviets don't don't nature eastern europe. maybe ford, who is boasting about his foreign policy, is not as smart as we thought he was. >> let's listen to 1988, the last debate between massachusetts governor michael dukakis against vice president george h.w. bush. >> governor, if kitty dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer? >> i don't. i think you know i opposed the death penalty during all of my life. i don't see any evidence for a deterrent. there are more faekeffective wao deal with violent crime. >> there were questions about the nuclear weapons, the budget deficit. the only thing anyone remembers is bernie shaw asking him that question and michael dukakis answering robotically. how did that impact the race? >> well, i actually -- we both knew bernie shaw. i asked him why he asked that question. he said, you know, george h.r. bush, as we call him, has been calling dukakis the ice man. i was trying to give him an opportunity to show that he was more human. instead of saying, i would want to go out with a spike club, he gave a response that sounded like it was destined for the chamber of commerce, suggested bush was right that dukakis didn't have the human qualities that people like in a president. >> dukakis' numbers plummeted. the rest is history. another memorable moment, ronald reagan, walter mondale debating in october of '84. reagan stumbled in the first debate. the narrative had been reagan at 73 is too old. it was the lead story in "the wall street journal" the day after. the issue came up in the second debate. reagan was ready with a well-rehearsed quip. >> i will not make age an issue of this campaign. i am not going to exploit for political purposed my opponent's youth and inexperience. >> even mondale laughed. it put to rest the age issue. >> mondale laughed. but i talked to him later. i said, what were you thinking when reagan made that joke? mondale said, if you look really closely at the pictures and video, i'm laughing but i also had tears in my eyes because i knew that that moment was the end of the campaign and that reagan would win. >> let me take you to 1992, another memorable debate. this in charlottesville, three-way race. ross perot was in it. with george h.w. bush and bill clinton. it's a roundtable. a question is asked by a woman about her economic struggles. bill clinton gets off his stool, breaks the format, walks over to her and shows empathy. let's watch. >> tell me how it has affected you again. you know people who lost their jobs and lost their homes? >> yeah. >> i have seen what's happened in this last four years. in my state, when people lose their jobs, there's a good chance i will know them by their name. when a factory closes, i know the people who ran it. when the businesses go bankrupt, i know them. >> nothing like that is going to happen tonight. it's very controlled, at least on paper. no studio audience. the microphone muting is another issue. what are your expectations? >> i expect that what you will see is each candidate trying to show his best self and trying to goad the other guy into showing his worst self. for instance, 1992, clinton was saying, george h.w. bush is a fine person as president, but he has been in office for 12 years and he is out of touch. instead, bush walked into the trap and said, i don't understand this question. clinton walks right up to this woman and says, i feel your pain. it drew that contrast in a way that helped clinton a lot. >> michael beschloss, walking through history with you is great. look forward to -- >> i say the same to you. thank you. love it. >> great to have you. under pressure. plenty of pitfalls for the candidates tonight that could be campaign game changers. you are watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. u ara mitchell reports" on msnbc the best way to solve a problem is to keep it from happening. 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>> let people know -- >> he doesn't want to answer the question. >> i'm not going to answer the question. the question is -- the question is -- >> radical left. >> will you shut up, man? >> hence the need for a mute button. joining us now, claire mccaskill and brendan buck. claire, let's talk about the debate parameters. the mute button is helpful but does it take the energy out of a debate? you won't have an exchange like that. >> you might. i'm not sure a mute button will stop trump from continuing to talk and badger and say ridiculous things, especially if biden does a good job of getting under his skin. that should be one of his goals. when i was doing debate prep back in the day, andrea, my staff used to shout when we were doing the mock ones, pivot and punch, pivot and punch. that's what joe biden has to do. he has to take some swings at a lot of trump's policy positions. most importantly, he has to show how strong he is and he is willing to go toe to toe with this guy no matter how out of control trump might be. >> brendan, someone you know very well, paul ryan, was on the vice presidential ticket. i don't know if you were involved in debate prep then. it's all about who is making an impact in those moments. we just played those with michael beschloss. there's a lot involved. the latest poll, 16% of voters say they are open to changing their minds. they come from rfk junior supporters. how do the candidates get those voters, that 16%? it could be decisive. >> both of them -- i'm sure they appreciate this. this election is going to be decided by people who don't like either of these men. if either of them come off -- thinking more about donald trump -- as obnoxious or childish, i don't know that will endear you. donald trump has been able to show discipline in some debates previously. it's a big question of whether he will be on his best behavior. to your earlier point, what claire was talking about, i do wonder -- i was working with paul ryan during the vp debate. one of the things joe biden was able to do effectively was make comments under his breath and poke at him when the other person was talking. i wonder if that will be an effective strategy. we may not be able to hear them but the other person talking may be able to do that. whoever loses their cool -- this will come down to discipline. who can remain on message and not lose their cool. it could be an interesting x factor. >> that's a very good point. claire, donald trump is likely going to go after hunter biden and those issues, push the biden crime family narrative and try to get under the president's skin. alternatively, joe biden is going with the 34 convictions and the indictments and all the legal problems for donald trump. >> i'm not sure that he will do that. i'm not sure that those folks that don't like either candidate, if they were going to be moved by trump's convictions, they probably still wouldn't be in that undecided camp. i think he is more likely go to after him on what he has done to women's rights in this country and what he is trying do with health care. this is a good area where biden has a great story to tell about going toe to toe with pharmaceutical companies and lowering the cost of insulin for millions of americans. meanwhile, trump is still fantasizing about getting rid of obamacare, which was his ultimate failure in the first time he was in the oval office. i don't know that biden has -- all biden has to say about hunter is, i love my son. that's all he has to say. most families in america in ame will relate. but trump has some answering to do about health care and i hope biden puts it to him. >> and with a candidate like donald trump, how much fact checking do you think the moderators will be able to do? and how much fact checking will joe biden have to do to try to keep donald trump, you know, not going off on tangents that are going to be impossible to keep up with? including the election tonight? >> yeah, really important dynamic tonight. joe biden simply cannot stay on defense for an hour and a half responding to everything that donald trump says. he's probably going to have to let some lies go and let them slip. he simply can't be responding to everything trump said. he, both these men need to be on offense as much as they possibly can. talking about what the other person has done bad, done wrong. both have a record which is unusual. as much as he can avoid playing that defense, they'll be much, much better off. >> thanks to you, we'll all be watching. coming up, we'll dig into the numbers and the candidates just hours from tonight's debate. oh no. what if we don't get down in time to get a birthday gift for zoe? don't panic. with etsy we can find the perfect gift, and send her a preview right away. i love this. thanks guys. ooh, that's a relief. it sure is great to know when something's coming. 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it's basically tennis for babies, but for adults. it should be called wiffle tennis. pickle! yeah, aw! whoo! ♪♪ these guys are intense. we got nothing to worry about. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? got him. good game. thanks for coming to our clinic, first one's free. breaking news from the trump classified documents case in florida. a pretrial decision from judge eileen cannon has denied trump's request to keep evidence seized by the fbi during the mar-a-lago raid out of his criminal case. one of the rare times the judge has not ruled in trump's favor. with so many people having made up their minds on how they view president biden and donald trump, what are the chances that either candidate can change those perceptions tonight? with us now, nbc news mark murray, talk to me about, you know, all of the polling that shows people are really set. these two people have been on the stage constantly for years and years for different reasons. how will these undecided voters judge this debate? what are the key elements? >> as we were discussing in the quinnipiac poll, 16% of voters said they might change their minds depending on what happens in this debate. and 16% in our very highly polarized country is a not insignificant number. a lot of people have had either impressions of both president joe biden, former president trump, recent poll that ended out coming from cbs news found weaknesses for president biden being that people, only 28% saw him as being tough. only 37% saw former president trump as being compassionate. we know the ability for joe biden to say, you know what? i'm vigorous, i'm strong, is to have a strong and vigorous debate performance. an opportunity for donald trump to actually show that, hey, i'm not the bully that people make me out to be. show a little more compassion. so both have opportunities. we might see some role reversals. tough, dynamic joe biden and a more measured donald trump. >> yeah. and also, andrea, we need to have the expectation that maybe despite the 90 minutes of rocking, socking back and forth, that it might not change the overall contours of this race. again, with the idea that there are going to be some swing voters that could change their mind between now and november, this race, what has been really remarkable so far, is how very little has changed. whether the conviction for donald trump, any kind of other kind of change, the economic data that comes out, it just seems that this race continues to stay the same. this is a big opportunity for maybe things to change. we have to keep in mind the possibility that the current race we see keeps on playing out all the way to the fall. >> i was talking to brandon buck in a previous statement and he said, joe biden will have to resist fact-checking and rebutting every misstatement from donald trump about the economy, obviously, about the election, if that were to come up. if trump, mistakenly, you know, gives him that. but on all these other issues of health care, and abortion, and the election, you know, he rebuts everything and tries to fact check, he'll be playing defense the whole time. >> you don't want this debate to be about donald trump. all of a sudden, you're parrying every attack from trump. it becomes trump, trump, trump, trump, trump. joe biden in addition to trying to demonstrate strength and vigor has to tell americans what 2025, 2026, 2027, and 2028 would end up being with him in the white house. again, what would the agenda be? what would be him in the oval office again? more of a look to the future, rather than litigating the past. i do think that will be pretty important for president biden tonight. >> and peter bakley smartly in the "new york times" pointed out, this era of social media, it's really hard to get people to just look at your record and to be defending and bragging about your record. you have to look forward. >> you have to look forward. but again, one moment could end up making or breaking a debate, too. it could all matter or not matter at all. >> well, thanks very much, mark, as always. that does it for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports." and tonight, rachel maddow leading the coverage. watch tonight beginning at 7:00 eastern. 9:00 eastern, you can watch the debate right here. stay tuned for analysis and coverage all night long. and follow us on social media. you can rewatch the best parts of our show any time on youtube. go to msnbc.com/andrea. chris jansing starts right now. welcome to the center of the political universe. i'm