Trump, who is facing intensifying russia investigations, has asked his advisers about his power to pardon aides, family members and himself. The u. S. Constitution says the president has the power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States except in cases of impeachment. But whether a president can pardon him or one day herself isnt answered in the constitution. The department of justices office of Legal Counsel did shed some light back in 1974 telling thenpresident Richard Nixon he did not have that power something historians like making beschloss says nixon never considered anyway thinking the idea dishonorable. Facing impeachment nixon resigned instead perhaps assuring that his successor gerald ford would pardon him which, of course, he did. As for donald trump. Whether he will test the constitutional pardon power by trying it on himself is an open question but if he were to try could he get away with it . Joining me is joan walsh of the nation, Matthew Miller justice and security analyst and former chief spokesman for the Justice Department, Indira Lakshmanan of the boston globe. Great panel this morning. Anthony scaramucci was on this week talking about his time at harvard. Would you take that meeting . Since thats been overused would i have taken that meeting . Im not sure. Hows that . Ill answer it honestly and tell you im not sure. Since i went to Harvard Law School i probably would have asked a few people and somebody would have said to me get a cutout to take the meeting and see if theres no legitimacy to it. Once they realized there was no legitimacy, people were walking out or on their iphones, its a nonevent. Here is Laurence Tribes response okay, basically Laurence Tribe we an oped in the New York Times on friday in which he said nope, nope, nope, trump cannot pardon himself, the constitution tells us so. Another oped was written in the New York Times on july 7 by elizabeth holtsman, a democrat from new york, she used to be in house of representativess from 1973 to 1981. She served on the House Judiciary Committee during watergate and show wrote going back to founder james madison, he said no man is allowed to be a judge in his own cause, selfpardoning president s would be acting as their own judge and jury which no one is permitted to do in our constitutional scheme and she said it would stand in jarring contrast to the rest of the constitution. Elizabeth was on all in with me on friday and lets play what she said in that vein. Its true, the constitution doesnt say the president cant pardon himself. But theres nothing in the constitution in the history of the pardon power that suggests the president has power to pardon himself. It goes against everything in the constitution which is we are a government of limited powers. Just think, if a president could pardon himself he could commit or she whatever monstrous crime he or she wanted to and exist with impunity. So mark alexander, dean of villanova law school, that has been the consensus view of a lot of legal scholars, that the president cant pardon himself. On the other side is jonathan turley, a libertarian attorney who says he can. Whos right here . I think if the president were to try to pardon himself he would be placing himself above the law and thats been very well established in all kind of case law that no person is above the law. So if the president could just commit any crime and then pardon himself then hed place himself above the law which is completely contrary to our constitution and our system of government so it would make no sense for him to have the pardon power extending to himself. He could commit a felony. He could commit treason as elizabeth holtsman pointed out and pardon himself for it which seems nonsensical that that would be possible but we know, Matthew Miller, that politics does enter into even the Legal Counsel that president s receive and walter shaub, who was an ethics official, he tweeted in 1974 the justice Departments Office of Legal Counsel explained that nixon could not pardon himself but never underestimate the willingness of olc which issue it had torture memo plus Nuclear Weapon tiesed white house to revise its views when the white house finds the rule of law annoying. So whether or not the constitution says donald trump could do it, do you have confidence this office of Legal Counsel, which is a trump era office of Legal Counsel, wouldnt tell donald trump yes you can . No, partially because we dont have a senateconfirmed head of olc, we dont know who that person will be or what their views will be. Itch confidence in the career people atolc but theyre not the ones that decide. Its the head of the office which will be someone trump appoint sod theres a question of what olc would recommend and the question comes down to what would people like Anthony Kennedy and jobt decembhn rober . This is a question that would go to the supreme court. You look at those two as likely being the deciding votes to say whether the president has this power or not. In addition to that, indira, you have don mcgahn, the white House Counsel who didnt do so well in counseling donald trump to get Michael Flynn out. Hes never worked in a president ial administration, his experience and his bent is about dismantling bureaucracy, he served on the fec, hes more of a Campaign Finance lawyer, a deeply libertarian person. What is the thinking about what kind of counsel he might give donald trump about whether to try pardoning himself . I think the question here joie is what weve been talking about that the president is doing things that are unprecedented. The fact that nobody has pardoned himself before or even considered perhaps pardoning himself before, president nixon certainly talked about it and was told no you cant do that, thats not possible. Donald trump has gotten away with a lot of things no other president has. Think about the fact he has not released his taxes and no one has done that since jimmy carter. In case after case we can say donald trump has managed to do things. Think about the fact that in january of 2016 donald trump said i could go on fifth avenue and shoot somebody and i wouldnt lose my base supporters. And hes pretty much been proven right on that fact. Hes managed to go along and say this is just a witchhunt and i think politically weve seen that far from being a wish hunt all of the best evidence we have as shown that russia has not only been involved in all of what went on in the 2016 election but that we found pretty much a coven in terms of the trump campaigns involvement and yet donald trump has been able to continually deny it so i think we cant say anything is not possible. Anything in this administration seems pretty much possible, joy. A coven that has put a spell on a lot of voters because we know there was an interview with a trump voter that was in one of these endless interviews to get into the psyche of trump voters who said well, i guess if he shot someone in cold blood i might change my mind. One of the interesting things about this is you set aside the constitutional question. Elizabeth holtsman suggested if donald trump were to try to pardon himself there would be a lawsuit which he would lose because the constitution is clear but at the same time theres the politics of it. I remember watching that roger stone movie get me roger stone that incredible documentary and it talks about Donald Trumps orientation and affinity for people like roy cohn whos kind of a mentor for him. For those who dont remember, he was senator Joe Mccarthys red baiting consigliere, he sent the ros rosenbergs to the electric chair for spying. And roger stone was involved with guccifer who says he was in communication with this hacker, he seems to see donald trump as rerunning the nixon play book but with a better nixon in his view. Do you see around donald trump anyone in that orbit who would say you know what, mr. President , this is a terrible idea and its unconstitutional. I dont and i want to call attention to Anthony Scaramucci when he said cutout. I would have a cutout go take that meeting for me. The use of that word shows this is a person who is used to trying to get around laws. I would have an emissary take the meeting, i would have my assistant take the meeting but to say cutout means were trying to hide what were doing here but i would hide it and stupid don jr. Didnt hide it. Thats the level of person youre dealing with. Beyond the circle, beyond the coven. What scares me is we talk about being a nation of laws but were only as strong as the people we have who are willing to enforce the laws and when you have a Republican Congress right now that seems so completely uninterested and unwilling to do its job in checking and balancing this offtherails president , it is why many people are starting to use the term constitutional crisis. And then theres no confidence in what would happen at the Justice Department because Jeff Sessions is a trump loyalist. Hes recused on russia but mark i wonder about this. There was a new york oped written by two university of chicago law professors who made this interesting observation. If it could be shown that donald trump pardoned his family members and close aides to cover up possible crimes, that could be seen as acting corruptly and he could be charged with obstruction of justice. The question would be whether he was acting out of the goodness of his heart or covering for his family. We know bill clinton was investigated for the mark rich pardon, the Justice Department opened an inquiry that lasted four years investigating whether he was bribed to pardon mark rich, none other than james comey being the u. S. Attorney who was assigned the case so could bit that if donald trump tries to pardon not just himself not himself, put him aside, kushner, manafort, some of his aides to cover up a crime, could he be investigated for a crime . Sure. If he were to pardon other people that could open up another set of questions it could open the question whether hes trying to obstruct justice and if youre trying to pardon somebody and there is an underlying problem that doesnt mean the investigation goes away, it means the individuals cant be prosecuted but if it was say jared or ivanka or some others they might have to testify because they wouldnt have the privilege against selfincrimination so the investigations could go on and on so just pardoning himself, even if not himself doesnt put an end to it, the previous point is who says s going to stand up if there is a problem. If the president exceeds what we conceive as being improper, going past the proper boundaries, will the congress do its role in terms of helping to put checks and balances on the presidency . Thats one of the big questions, the president , the congress, others. Its all part of a big system and for 200 plus years weve had this system and no one is bigger than that. So lets get to the press and the Justice Department. What should be the response . If donald trump attempts to pardon himself and hobbles the ability of the russia problems to go forward, what should be the press reaction . I think the press is doing the right thing this is digging every single day and dont forget, joy, as you know, so much so what we know we know because of excellent investigative reporting. The president tried to say his son has been so transparent in releasing emails to do with this contested meeting don jr. Had. The only reason he released the emails is because he knew the New York Times had them and questioning about him and about to release them. The only reason we know donald trump is considering pardoning himself is because the Washington Post figured it out there their shoe leather reporting and their sources so the press has to continue this. But i want to say one more thing about this whole pardoning question. There are other things that come before that step and that is that the president may well be considering firing bob mueller and then comes the question what is Jeff Sessions going to do . What is Rob Rosenstein going to do and what is Congress Going to do . Are they going to take seriously their responsibility . You anticipate midnext question. What would Rod Rosenstein do. Who at the Justice Department can be counted on to enforce the law if donald trump gets rid of Jeff Sessions about puts another lackey whos not recused and who could fire bob mueller. I dont think we can count on anyone in the current Justice Department leadership to enforce the law. Bob mueller is the key. Hes the person you would expect to investigate if the president did inappropriately use a pardon, he would be the person to investigate but if hes not still there, i dont know we can have faith in Political Leadership at the department. Rod rosenstein had a great career as a very ropted prosecutor who everyone thought would be the one that would protect the departments independence and integrity. We saw him aid and abet the president in firing james comey when he had to know what he was firing him for and after the president launched an unprecedented assault on the Justice Department, it wasnt just an attack on Jeff Sessions and Rod Rosenstein, it was an attack on the Justice Departments ability to decide for itself what to investigate and not to investigate. Rod rosenstein had a press conference and didnt say anything to defend the departments mission, its independence, its integrity. So if youre looking for people inside the Justice Department in the Political Leadership to save us from donald trump right now, theres not a lot of evidence that anyone would do that. As joan said theres not evidence that anyone in congress on the republican side would do that. Thank you to Matthew Miller, Indira Lakshmanan. Well bring you back. Up next, with tensions flaring in the middle east, how will the Trump Administration respond . Ill discuss that with colonel Lawrence Wilkerson when we come back. Award winning design. Award winning engine. The volvo xc90. The most awarded luxury suv of the century. This july visit your local volvo dealer to receive sommar savings of up to 4,500. This july visit your local volvo dealer only tylenol® rapid release gels have laser drilled holes. They release medicine fast, for fast pain relief. Tylenol® more kinds of crab than ever, new dishes, and all your favorites. Only while crabfest lasts. Red lobster. Now this is seafood. Hey youve gotta see this. Cno. N. Alright, see you down there. Mmm, fine. Okay, what do we got . Okay, watch this. Do the thing we talked about. What do we say . Its going to be great. Watch. Remember what we were just saying . Go irish see that . Yes im gonna just go back to doing what i was doing. Find your awesome with the xfinity x1 voice remote. America might is second to none and were getting bigger and better and stronger everyday of my administration. That i can tell you. Donald trump may soon be faced with another international crisis. Six people have been killed amid escalating tensions in jerusalem where palestinians are protesting the israeli governments move to place metal detectors at the al aqsa mosque compound in east jerusalems old city. Today israeli officials said they will not remove the metal detectors, rejecting demands from the Palestinian Authority who has frozen relationships with israel from protest. The compound, which is also holy to jews, is considered the most contested site in the holy land. Israel installed metal detectors and camera there after palestinian gunmen opened fire near the shrine on july 14, killing two Israeli Police officers. The government has banned muslim men under the age of 50 from even entering the compound. Joining me is colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, former chief of staff to secretary of state colin powell. Its always great to talk to you. I am very interested in getting your take on whats going on. This does seem to be a near crisis situation if not an outright crisis. Well, the pressure is building incrementally. Bibi netanyahu and his government have been moving to make sure that the pressure builds, the tension builds. The ultimate goal with regard to the mosque is to drive the palestinians and arabs in general out completely. I recall when we were working with then Yasser Arafat in ramallah in 2002 or 2003 as i recall a Catholic Bishop actually told me that the biggest enemy for him for christians in that region was not the arabs, it was the jews. So we have a real problem with this government. We dont have a problem with israelis in general but with th