Extremely big deal . Freak out. New pressure on Mitch Mcconnell after the bombshell revelations about russian interference in our elections. Donald trumps new tortured legal argument to keep his taxes hidden. And my exclusive interview with the american citizen detained against his will by i. C. E. Theyre all people. We all deserve the same respect and the same treatment. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. I said it before, but if you have one foot on the boat and one foot on the dock, youre likely going to end up in the water that is increasingly what it feels like the speaker of the house nancy pelosi is trying to pull off as she tries to slow a growing call for impeachment from within her caucus. Here is the basic problem she and the democrats face. John harwood cites a Democratic Leadership aging. Here is congresswoman katie hill who defeated a republican incumbent to win her seat saying months from now there may be a time she would consider impeachment. Extremely gentle, extremely amorphous and ambiguous. One of her opponents calling her pretty mild statement divisive and dangerous. Democratic leadership is concerned about the politics for those 30 to 40 front line members that constitute their majority. They worry that impeachment will hurt them politically. And lets be clear. Its not at all crazy for Speaker Pelosi to worry about that or to make that kind of calculation. A big part of their job, perhaps really the biggest part of their job when they dont control unified government is to protect her current majority so there can be one when and if there is a democratic government. On the other hand, impeachment is a constitutional duty. It is powerful legal force behind it because it is literally a specified power of congress in the constitution. House democrats are currently being stonewalled by a white house that refuses to hand over basically anything at every turn. It is generally the feeling of most scholars that if democrats werent formally pursuing an impeachment decree, they would have stronger legal standing in the court. In fact, House Judiciary CommitteeCommittee Chair jerry nadler himself said that on this show just last week. The courts have held our ability to investigate is at its zenith when were when were doing an impeachment. We can get information in a judicial proceeding. Impeachment has been held to be a judicial proceeding or part of a judicial proceeding yes, that is valid. 16 information. That is grand jury information. So that brings us to what it look likes they have done today. Essentially, Democratic Leaders are attempting to thread this needle and say we are not formally opening an impeachment inquiry and putting all of our atrisk members on the record about it, but who is to say what an impeachment hearing is anyway. Well just investigate the president s high crimes and misdemeanors so well have a stronger standing in court. Jerry nadler has filed a petition with the court for the grand jury material that underlies the mueller report. The reason that is significant is that grand jury material could only be given over in a few cases. One of those is in a judicial proceeding, and as nadler said, previous courts have ruled impeachment counts as one. This is how you get what well call schmimpeachment. Tincture of impeachment, depending on who you have. We will proceed when we have what we need to proceed, not one day sooner. Among other things we will consider are obviously whether to recommend the articles of impeachment. We may not do that. We may do that. But thats a conclusion at the end of the process. From my personal standpoint, i think yes in an impeachment investigation. But this the committees own filing for the grand jury material, they say part of the justification for seeking it is because, quote, this committee is conducting investigation to determine whether to recommend articles of impeachment. And now tonight, four members of the Judiciary Committee have penned a brandnew oped titled while were moving forward with impeachment. Joining me philippe reines, donna edwards, ezra levin, the coexecutive director of indivisible which is a Progressive Organization building a Grassroots Movement to defeat the trump agenda. Congresswoman edwards, let me ask first your read on all this and how you view leaderships position visavis the polling, the politics, and protecting what they view as those 30 to 40 front line members. I think right now, i mean obviously leadership is in a bind. But it was really clear in the petition to the court seeking the grand jury material to enforce subpoenas that jerry nadler and the Judiciary Committee actually recognize that their strongest hand is in using the language of the constitutional and impeachment. Otherwise, it would be difficult, more difficult to obtain that information. And so, you know, i think right now there is a growing call for impeachment. There have been a half dozen members who come out actually since the mueller hearings. I suspect that when members go back to their district, theyre going to hear directly from their constituents that they cannot let this president get away with his lawless criminal behavior, and that will make a difference. When the speaker says that, you know, theyll act when theyve got all the facts in hand. Well, one of those facts is actually what she describes as public sentiment. I think at this stage its really important for the public to rise up and demand that this president be held accountable and this process today begins that. So there is the chickenegg issue with that, right, ezra . Whether youre leading or following public opinion. And for people that are skeptical and make the case look, the better part of valor here is not to especially walk the plank with something high risk politically for what will ultimately almost surely be an acquittal in the senate. Here is the latest polling today. I want to get your responses. 37 of voters said they support impeachment proceedings to remove trump from office, down 2 points from a january poll, and 46 i wish we had the other part. I think its like 46 or 41 . 46 who dont want to start impeachment proceedings. Yeah, you know, i think the striking thing about those numbers is theyre far, far higher than the numbers for removing president nixon from office when the watergate hearings began. And i think this is a really key point that the purpose of impeachment proceedings is indeed to eventually lead to a vote on whether or not to impeach. But its also to educate the public. And thats the really important piece here, that we need to be able to send a clear message to the public as to why are we even pursuing impeachment . What are the crimes that trump has committed . And thats the opportunity in front of the House Judiciary Committee to make clear. I wouldnt lose sight of the context were in right now. Yes, mueller just testified. But thats not the only important political event were facing. Today is also the start of august recess, congressional recess where members of congress all over the country go back to their hometowns. And i think democrats didnt want to go back to their districts without being able to say something. And jerry nadler deserves some credit. This isnt everything, but this is a step in the right direction where theyre able to say yes we are starting to move forward on impeachment. Here the tricky thing. Trying to have it a little both ways, and not again. Strategically, its not crazy why theyre trying to do both these things. They want the constitutional force of impeachment inquiry in the courts without getting all their members on the record at this point, right, on something that might not be popular in their district. The issue that becomes the moment of the thing, you can see pelosi is scared about this, right . You open an inquiry, and you find out more bad things about what the president did. The next thing you know, youre not controlling where its going. Yeah. I think what were seeing here is what weve been reading about, which is that nancy pelosi and jerry nadler have been having conversations behind closed doors about disagreeing about what to do next. Yes. Now were seeing it out in the open. Now this is maybe the legislative version of taking to the streets for jerry nadler. But for what he did today, we might be sitting here saying impeachment dead. Thats a good point. He did something just as the window was closing. He knew what he was doing. And he didnt do it yesterday. He did it a day after seeing the cumulative deflation of people like me who think my god, this guy has broken the law in so many ways. You have to do whats right. And he was talking to us. He was talking to his members, because, yes, while there have been somewhere between 6 and 10 that have come out for impeachment in the last 48 hours and the number is somewhere around 98 and 100 now, thats less than probably would have been, because there are people who dont want to stick their neck out. Remember, this is not 100 people who are for impeachment and 135 democrats are against. Well said. This is 100 who are willing to buck the speaker that is a big deal. And, you know, where we are now is better than where we were 12 hours ago. Ill say this, congressman edwards. This is Jared Huffman saying writing yesterday, prediction. Weak of september 9th, thats when i project solid majority a tipping point. Crashers pressure during august recess is key. Lots of members are leaning. Let them hear from you folks. The rule of law hangs in the balance. Do you think this august recess really is key in that respect . Well, you know, i looked ten years ago during an august recess, the tea party practically shut down every town hall meeting across the country. And i think that were at one of those kind of moments here where its really important for people out in the country to let their members of Congress Know that it is unacceptable for this president to get away with crimes. And that will be a really important moment. Look, today one of the senior Democratic Leaders, Catherine Clark came out for impeachment. Lisa blunt rochester came out for impeachment. These are not people who generally travel all the way on the left side of the spectrum. Those things are really important. And its important for people to hear from their members of congress. And let me just say this lastly. That jerry nadler here is really trying to galvanize what had been dead following the mueller hearings. Thats interesting, yeah he is pushing the envelope right here. Ezra . I totally agree. And frankly, im excited. Look, it is so rare in american politics that if you are an individual in a community, youre looking at things and youre asking what can i do, and were in one of those moments right now. Donald trump doesnt care what you think. The Democratic House leadership doesnt particularly care what you think. But you know who does care what you think . Your individual member of the house of representatives. And if theyre a democrat, chances are theyre not yet out in favor of impeachment. But they depend on your vote for reelection and theyre bound to be back home. So you got a shot right now over the course of the next few weeks to make clear with other constituents that they need to come out in favor of impeachment. But i just want to counter that. Do you worry that the political analysis is wrong . Do you worry about the fact that maybe you, ezra, and the indivisible folks dont actually have the best sense of whats going to help those 30 folks get reelected in the districts they won from trump . That this really would put them in a bad spot, that it might actually risk the majority . I think we have to consider all angles. But frankly, nobody know whats the future holds. What we do know is what donald trump has done, and we do know where the grassroots is on this. We know that people who were knocking on doors, making calls, sending texts, they voted in a House Majority to hold this administration accountable. So if you want those people out knocking doors, sending texts and making calls to build the 2020 blue wave, you got to give them something. You got to actually say were out here fighting for you. Fecklessness and cowardice does not win elections. Samuel moin had an oped making the case people have been looking for a white knight savior of the mueller investigation. Theyve been stumbling through this nightmare for a huge part of the country not all of it obviously. And they want to be saved. They want somebody to come slay the dragon. Its a mistake to think that way. Its mythical, and that maybe the entire hopes and the impeachment, the only way to beat this guy is to beat him. There is a fair amount of fantasy going on. The notion of i dont want to see him impeached. I want to see him dragged off in cuffs. Thats not happening. Thats so ridiculous. But there are a fair number of people who keep moving the goalposts. Have i the highest respect for her and i hope we do impeach because shell be a great speaker, but nancy pelosi is doing a little of that too. Here is the problem. You know, the question you just asked ezra about the political calculus, it is a valid conversation to have what is the calculus. The problem is people are not having an open mind. Theyre just saying 1998, bill clinton was acquitted. Right. And Nothing Happened and the republicans lost. I just dont see that. That i agree with. I think that parallel is weak. A lot of people dont. People wont even entertain that. The person that believes that more than anyone is nancy pelosi. The other historical thing ive been thinking about, and this isnt apples to apples at all. In the fall of 2013, a massive fight opened up in the Republican Leadership over grassroots over a shutdown to repeal the aca. This is idiotic. This is suicidal. Its not going to work. And the grassroots said fight, fight, fight, and we dont care. The grassroots won and shut down the government. The polling on it was terrible and everyone said it is going to cost them. And a year later, not a single vote was cast in america on that shutdown. Not a single one. People moved on to other things. People are thinking that impeachment is going to happen in the elections the next day. But thats not the way its going to work. Thats what happened in 98 where it straddled the midterms. Were a year away. Yeah. A and the two previous impeachments have been three or four months. We could be done with this and have a whole year to get our act together. Lord knows what will happen in that year. Thank you all. Choosing my Car Insurance was the easiest decision ever. I switched to geico and saved hundreds. Thats a win. But its not the only reason i switched. Geicos a company i can trust, with over 75 years of great savings and service. Now thats a winwin. Switch to geico. Its a winwin. Here, hello starts switwith hi mple. How can i help . A data plan for everyone. Everyone . Everyone. Lets send to everyone [ camera clicking ] wifi up there . Ahhh. Sure, why not . Howd he get out . a camera might figure it out. That was easy glad i could help. At xfinity, were here to make life simple. Easy. Awesome. So come ask, shop, discover at your xfinity store today. Your campaign this time foreigners, if russia, if china, if someone else offers you information on opponents, should they accept it or call the fbi . I think maybe you do both. I think you might want to listen. There is nothing wrong with listening. If somebody called from a country, norway, we have information on your opponent. Oh. I think id want to hear it. Its not an interference. They have information. I think id take it. Yeah, maybe the norwegians just text the pres with a little dirt. You know, you read the text. This is how this week went. On tuesday, fbi director chris wray testified before the senate Judiciary Committee and said that russia is still intent on interfering in our elections. On wednesday, former special Counsel Robert Mueller testified for about seven hours, largely about russias sabotage of our campaign and election. And then yesterday, the Senate Intelligence committee released a stunning report on russias 2016 election interference. And then following all that, Senate Majority leader Mitch Mcconnell blocked two Election Security bills yesterday. One of the bills, the duty to report act, required candidates and Campaign Officials to notify the fbi if theyre offered foreign contributions or assistance. Mcconnell blocked that bill too. It seems like thats the kind of provision he might think President Trump would run afoul of, particularly because the president has said he would run afoul of it. But lets not forget that back in september of 2016, when the cia presented the gang of eight with its assessment that russia was at that moment intervening in that election to help donald trump win the presidency, president obama suggested putting out a bipartisan statement urging state and local officials to take federal help to protect their elections from russias cyber intrusions. Mitch mcconnell stood in the way of that statement. Quote, according to several officials, mcconnell raised doubts about the underlying intelligence and made clear to the administration he would consider any effort by to challenge the white house bipartisan politics. Joining me malcolm nance, author of the plot to hack america. Well, a lot happened this week, malcolm. What do you make of mcconnells maneuvering in the last day or two . The only thing i can make of it is i have to go and look back at what precipitating event would make him not want to defend the United States from a russian attack. I dont like the word intrusion. What happened in 2016 was an attack. As Robert Mueller said, were still in an ongoing attack. And the only thing i can think of is that oleg deripaska, one of the oligarchs who was implicated in the 2016 election activities, has promised to open an aluminum smelting plant in the state of kentucky, providing jobs in kentucky. Anywhere else in any other point in histo