Necessary, yes. The president had effectively an extramarital affair slush fund. Then Scott Pruitts luxury trip to rome on the public dime. Lets have no illusions about what was really going on here. And what primary night in america looks like in the era of trump. Im basically trumpier than trump. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. The president and his lawyer are applying the same strategy that got the president elected, to his rapidly multiplying legal threats. Overwhelm the public with enough noise to drown out the facts and muddle the issues. Whether it can work this time is still an open question. The president today spent his morning executive time, as he so often does, tweeting about the criminal investigation into his campaign, his allies and his Family Members and himself. And this comes after the president s new personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, claimed in an interview over the weekend that the mueller team might try to set up the president on perjury charges. With Stormy Daniels. In other words, other amounts of money. This was not uncommon for him to do that. You said he this was a regular arrangement he had with Michael Cohen. Did Michael Cohen make other arrangements for the president . I have no knowledge of that. But i would think if it was necessary, yes. He made payments for president. Or he conducted business for the president. Interviewed right after giuliani, Stormy DanielsAttorney Michael Avenatti called the appearance a, quote, absolute unmitigated disaster for the president. Giuliani after meeting with trump later on his golf club in virginia told the Washington Post he still has his clients confidence, quote. We all feel pretty good. Weve got everything kind of straightened out and were setting the agenda. Everybody is reacting to us, and i feel good about that right now because thats what i came in now. Laurence tribe, an expert on Campaign Finance law among other things. Let me start with that one assertion Rudy Giuliani made about asserting president ial privilege in response to a subpoena. What do you make of that . Well, he says that president s
do it all the time. But the fact is no president of the United States has ever refused to respond to a subpoena. Thomas jefferson responded by producing the evidence that John Marshall wanted so he didnt have to appear personally. Richard nixon handed over tapes on which his personal voice appeared in a context where he couldnt even take the fifth because it was already on tape. And bill clinton responded by arranging to testify, quote, voluntarily, unquote. So rudy doesnt know he what he is talking about in terms of the law or american history. But he sure puts on a show. Its just remarkable. Well, do you discern a legal strategy here . Well, i think its not so much a legal strategy as a pr strategy. Confuse them, distract them, thats the way we won. But theyve forgotten that the ultimate audience here is not the people of the United States who are undoubtedly fascinated
by Stormy Daniels and confused by the constant contradictions, its the judicial system. And when the judicial system led by Robert Mueller with all of the evidence that he is gathering decides that weve got to straighten this out, rudy has made it even more important to figure out what did the president really know and when did he know it about all of these interrelated money schemes makes it all the more necessary to have the president s personal testimony, which is why the case for a subpoena is stronger by virtue of this supposed defense. I mean, theyre really putting all their feet in their mouths. You said Something Interesting there. Its a pr strategy, but its not a sort of legal strategy. But there is a sense in which because of the way the president is a singular kind of client, right. Right, right. And the constitutions only
remedy currently you cant indict a sitting president , lets stipulate that for a moment. I know its slightly contested that ultimately, thats all that matters. This will ultimately be fought on political terrain. What do you think of that . No question. But that political terrain will be framed by the legal. Right. Case that is put forward and confusing the public now is not going to help when the bombs explode and the evidence is splattered all over the front page. Giuliani had an interesting argument about this sort of why there is no legal exposure on the Stormy Daniels front. I want to just play that to you and get your reaction to that specifically. Sure. Because it does have to do a little bit with Campaign Finance law and its violations. Take a listen. What matters to me are two things. There are two relevant legal things, which is what my job is. Number one, it was not a Campaign Contribution because it would have been done anyway. This is the kind of thing i settled for celebrities and famous people. Every lawyer that does that kind of work has. And number two, even if it was
considered a Campaign Contribution, it was entirely reimbursed out of personal funds, which i dont think well even get to. Because the first someone enough. Case closed for donald trump. And i think for Michael Cohen. Case closed, professor . Not at all. He is just making it worse. If it was a contribution, it clearly was timed to prevent Stormy Daniels from speaking on the eve of the campaign. It wasnt a coincidence. It was a long time between the underlying affair and the hush money. And even if it was going to be repaid and it was loan, there were violations of the federal Campaign Reporting laws. Worse than that, the cloud of confusion that they are spewing now amounts to Obstruction Of Justice and witness tampering because cohen and the president are key witnesses and the president through giuliani is signaling what he wants cohen to say. So its a mess many times over as a result of giulianis learning conserve. All right. Professors laurence tribe, thanks for your appearance tonight. Thanks, chris. Host of the trump inc. Series on wbmic. And nick akerman who served under Rudy Giuliani when he was District Attorney when he served for the Southern District of use when you were a young pup. Exactly. Many years ago. A Wall Street Journal piece that just crossed, just published that the lawyers Rudy Giuliani gave an interview to the Wall Street Journal. Theyre going to aim to decide by may 17th whether the president testifies in the probe. I guess its a oneyear anniversary. Its a fitting date. What do you think . I dont think he has any choice there is a false narrative being spun here, that is that there is some kind of negotiation going on. Always. That trump somehow has the upper hand and he can decide
what to do. The fact of the matter is if he gets subpoenaed, the Supreme Court is going to tell him hes got to testify. Right. I mean, u. S. V nixon is right on point. The Supreme Court in that case said the public has the right to every persons evidence unless theyre going to take a privileged some kind of privilege like the Fifth Amendment and refuse to testify. Thats it. He is going to have to testify. Youve reported on the president and Rudy Giuliani quite a bit. What is that relationship like . Well, i mean, it is very interesting that giuliani made his bones putting mobsters in jail and corrupt politicians in jail, and that he is now essentially playing the roy cohn role for trump. Roy cohn was one of trumps first lawyers who was also a mob lawyer and who trump has sort of held up as the standard the kind a personal lawyer should be, defending him at all cost, even if it means sometimes crossing
the law. I think its important to remember the context this is going on. Right now there is a Special Master in the Michael Cohen case reviewing eight boxes of documents, cell phones, blackberries and ipad to see whether there is evidence of wrongdoing in the Trump Organization by Michael Cohen at some point that could implicate trump. Simply, we also learned that mueller last week in those 49 questions was just last week that one of the things he is looking at is trumps Business Relationships with russia. So Rudy Giuliani is confusing everybody about talking about Stormy Daniels. Its really you need a timeline to keep track of all of the differing explanations, but at the same time, there are these two very serious criminal investigation going on in which he is a key part of trumps defense team. This is a tidbit from the Wall Street Journal article. Its sort of interesting. Trump to twoef be a serious distraction to his work eating into time he needs to deal with serious global issues. Let me just say this is one president who does not have that argument. He has purposely gone to l. A. To file a case against an individual he says he never had an affair with who he doesnt really know anything about, but yet he can involve himself in that case. Thats a decent argument, actually. I had forgotten about that. And then he spends half his time on the golf course. This is one president who cannot make the bill clinton argument that it would take up to much of his time. In an informal fourhour practice session, mr. Trumps lawyers were only able to walk him through two questions on two National Security matter. Im sure they asked him what is your name and what did you have for breakfast this morning. I dont think he could focus on any of these questions. These questions that you saw published last week, i mean, you and i could have come up with those in a few hours. Right. Those were just general topics. The real questions are going to be based on the evidence that mueller has gathered over the course of this investigation. What flynn has told them, what papadopoulos has told them. Thats where the real questioning is going to come. I think its also really important to note that if you have ever watch order read transcripts of Trump Depositions and there is a lot of them. And there are many, he says things frequently like in one lawsuit he said, well, i set the value of my properties in my mind. It depends on my state of mind. He says he hasnt met people that he clearly has met. So its a situation where if you have a prosecutor that gets to ask all the questions, he doesnt get to do what he does with us which is issue a tweet that is going to send people running. Right. He just has to answer the questions and the prosecutors will get to ask him no matter what he says. So that is what he is up against, and maybe the truest thing that Rudy Giuliani has said in the past days is that
thats something that would kearney lawyer is that their client is liable to go off script any second. What did you think about him invoking i thought for the first time from the legal team publicly pleading the fifth . Oh, i think he may very well do that. He has done so many other off the wall things. Right. This would be the first time he would be the total contrarian and basically he would be saying a truthful answer would tend to incriminate me. Thats what he is saying. Right. There is some question about how long this giuliani trump thing is going to last. Robert costa said this after the Hannity Interview that the white house aide is bewilder this a. M. By giuliani but many say the staff now feel like theyre not in control of the situation. Aide says potus and giuliani are running their own strategy and have a Generational Rapport and share shared point of view. Rudy giuliani was a mayor that people really liked
after 9 11, and he ran for senate, and that didnt go anywhere. And he ran for president and that didnt go anywhere. And he was a lead surrogate for donald trump during his campaign. He was expected to get a top position, that didnt happen. Now he is getting to control the narrative, but for now. Is he doing legal damage for Rudy Giuliani . Yeah, i think he is. He is making so many contradictory statements that he is really making it all about himself. Right. This is very much the scaramucci problem. Its very much like when he was u. S. Attorney. He was the only u. S. Attorney to hire three press people to do nothing but flak him to the press. When i was there, we they get a Mimeograph Machine and put out a Press Release saying so and so was indicted for the following charges. Afterwards, when giuliani took over, you had a fullblown Press Release, Press Conferences where he would make a Major Press Conference out of every major
indictment, even if he had nothing to do with it. It stood him in good stead as he became the mayor of new york. Its largely the reputation he earned in that position. Andrea bernstein and nick akerman, great to have you. Thank you. Next, the president s personal lawyer feeling under siege. The tenuous position of Michael Cohen, the other trump lawyer, and what it could mean for the president , in two minutes. Allergies with sinus congestion and pressure . You wont find relief here. Go to the pharmacy counter for powerful claritind. While the leading Allergy Spray relieves 6 symptoms. Claritind relieves 8, including sinus congestion and pressure. Claritind relieves more. Okay, iunderwear thatsd say this, bactually pretty. Er leak surprised . Its called always discreet boutique. It looks and fits like my underwear. I know what youre thinking. How can something this pretty protect . Hidden inside is a super absorbent core that quickly
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for donald trump that he, the loyalty will only go so far. And he has a wife and kids that he really, really cares about. I mean, his family, if you go into his office, its donald trump and its his family. Its pictures of his daughter. So this is something that is really going to test him. And it makes total sense now that he is feeling a little bit abandoned by the president. Weve seen people say that trumps telling people and telling the press that giuliani misspoke, and that he only just started and that he really doesnt know what he is talking about. Some people interpreted that as a signal to cohen to look, stay strong. Were not going to throw you under the bus here. Of course cohen is worried and he has every right to be. There is a bunch of reporting on cohen just over the last few days that just sort of makes it kind of on its face case that there is some stuff there that he may i mean, youve got a Wall Street JournalStory On Friday about the u. S. Probing the cash he built up during th campaign. The incredible New York Times piece about all of the shadowy
empire including selling four buildings on a single day entirely for cash. You read the stories and think this is not someone is going to be able to withstand the level of scrutiny he is now going to be under. Certainly you dont get the sense he is a careful and prudent person, which is exactly what you would expect in a donald trump lawyer. And i have to say, i dont have a lot of sympathy. But if this guy has t