With the russian. Plus, news of a new steel memo, revealing memos of russian interference in trumps choice for secretary of state. And why a russian coach currently in jail on thailand could crack the russia investigation wide open. All in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. A former trump aide who recently spent hours being interviewed by Robert Muellers team thinks the special counsel has something on the president of the United States. Sam nunberg is a name you probably heard a fair amount today if you were checking the internet at all, and he is a political consultant who was fired from the Trump Campaign in its early days way back in 2015. A couple of days ago he was questioned by muellers investigators for over five hours. Today in a live phone interview on this number, he told my colleague katy tur that he concluded based on those questions that mueller has the goods on his former boss, president donald j. Trump. You sat there in that room being questioned by muellers investigators. I want to hear directly from you. Do you think that they have something on the president . I think they may. What . I think that he may have done something during the election. But i dont know that for sure. Why do you think that . I cant explain it unless you were in there. Explain the atmosphere. The way they ask questions about anything i heard after i was fired from the campaign to the general election to even it insinuated to me he may have done something. I spoke to steve bannon for the first time last week after i went in there. And i spoke to him, and steve and i were discussing about how we both feel, katy, like im telling you, that trump very well may have done something during the election. I dont know what it is. I could be wrong, by the way. Okay. Nunberg later expanded on that claim in the studio with msnbcs ari melber. I think they were interested in something with his business. With his business . Yes, with his business. Did they ask you about the way he run his business . Yes. And by the way, i have no idea what he did. And he may not have done anything and coy be wrong. You felt they were asking you more about potential crimes related to the Trump Organization than the campaign . Thats what i felt. The white house dismissed nunbergs claims about a potential case against the president of the United States. I definitely think he doesnt know that for sure because he is incorrect, as weve said many times before there was no collusion with the Trump Campaign. Anything further on what his actions are. He hasnt worked at the white house. So i certainly cant speak to him or the lack of knowledge that he clearly has. Nunberg also announced that he is defying a subpoena from the special counsel to appear before a federal grand jury this friday, complaining that Campaign Documents subpoenaed by the special counsel would be too onerous to retrieve, and saying he didnt want to implement his former mentor, longtime trump adviser roger stone. Im not going to answer something so wide as this. This is so ridiculous. Im not going to give them every email i had with steve bannon and roger stone. I communicate with them every day. Roger stone is like a surrogate father. He is like my father. You feel loyal to him. And im not going to go in there for them to set up case against roger. Roger did not do anything. Okay. Were going to parse that. This comes directly after nbc news and axios both reported that an anonymous witness was recently subpoenaed for Campaign Documents going back to october 1, 2015, anything having to do with either the president or a long list of former campaign and senior aides. Nunberg told katy tur he made up his mind, get this, not to comply with the subpoena while he was in the middle of reviewing the requested documents, though he denied having found something he didnt want the special counsel to see. Did you find an email in the last 24 hours that made you worried, an email you didnt want to hand over . Not at all. A text message you didnt want to hand over. Did somebody put that question into your ear . No. Thats a question came up with off the top of my head. Its a very good question. No. I did. No. Has anybody from the Trump White House contact youd . No. Has the president contacted you . No. Has anybody from trumps Legal Team Contact youd . No. Has roger stone told you not go to go talk to the grand jury . No. Now, defying a grand jury subpoena could result in prison time for nunberg who could be charged with contempt of court. But nunberg appeared to dismiss the potential consequences. I once again dont want to have to spend 80 hours going over emails. You would rather spend possibly a year in jail than 80 hours im not going to jail. You think im going to jail . Well, maybe. Msnbcs katy tur spoke to sam nunberg this afternoon and joins me right now. Sorry than. Let me ask you this. What is going on here . Other than the chair falling . Other than the chair falling. Listen, sam is its a character. And he has always been a character inside trump world. A lot of what he says you have to confirm. All of what he says you have to confirm. Some of it is farflung and some things do result in solid reporting that can get backed up by multiple other sources. He went in to the special counsel interview about a week ago. Came out of it and said on this network that it was not a witchhunt, that it was a good use of taxpayer money, that it did not waste his time. Last night i spoke to him about the subpoena, and he said he was going to comply with it. He never gave any indication that he would not comply with it. I was talking to him 10 30, 11 00 last night. And this morning, or this afternoon, while i was on television, the Washington Post reports that he is suddenly not going to comply. So i called him, and i asked why. It does make it suspicious to a normal person about what he might have found that would make him not want to comply. If there is no communications with a lot of the people on that list, then, okay, thats easy. If there is communications with roger stone, and roger stone didnt do anything, okay, exonerate roger stone with your emails. Ding ding ding ding ding. If there is emails about steve bannon and steve bannon didnt do anything, show the emails that exonerate steve bannon. I think ultimately what will happen is sam nunberg will appear before a grand jury. Sam nunberg will comply with the subpoena. He is just going to make it difficult and he is going to flail his arms around. Okay. So to go back, lets focus in on. He is he is saying things that seem incriminating for other people. I just want to walk through those to figure out what grains of salt. Lets start with the president there. Is a lot of interesting stuff that has come out of the interview that he had. And some of it focuses on, and this is what is interesting, because its not just sam nunberg who says this about what your interviewers questions are. This is confirmed by other sources is that mueller is probing whether or not donald trump himself knew about the hacked democratic emails, the Hillary Clinton emails, the john Podesta Emails before the public knew. And when he was at that press conference that weve all been talking about, the one that i was at in july of 2016, where he said russia, if youre listening, was he using that for some sort of cover for himself because he knew it was coming later . Where in the world did that line come from . Theyre questioning it. Theyre also questioning his relationship with roger stone. Why was roger stone out of the campaign . Was he really fired or did he quit . What relationship did stone have during 2016 . Was there still a relationship . Potentially, was there some sort of back channel going on . We know they talked. Yeah, we do. Well, sam nunberg, and today was bonkers, underscore bonkers, it doesnt take away from the fact that there are still questions being asked not only of sam nunberg, but of others about what the president when he was a candidate and when he knew it. Of course. I guess my question more is what is nunberg like he has been on two interviews on this network. He has done two interviews on another network. He called in to new york one today, which is like the local Cable News Network of new york. What is he doing . How do you understand the behavior of this individual . I mean, im not a psychoanalyst. I cant tell you what he is trying to do. He says things that get a rise out of people. He says outrageous things. He does it. He does it on the phone. He does it in Text Messages that is who he is. This is a surprising move, even for sam nunberg. I mean obviously its very surprising. There are people around him that are seriously concerned about him. Theyre concerned about his wellbeing. Theyre concerned about what he could be doing next. Theyre concerned. I just talked to him a moment ago, and i said have you talked to your lawyer . He said no, i havent talked to my lawyer. So who knows. I mean, this is odd. But, again, this is the Trump Campaign and administration. Everything has been completely wacky. Thats true. Katy tur, its great to have you. Great interview today. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Nick akerman and a former acting solicitor of the u. S. Under president obama. Neil, i want to start with you on a basic legal question here you. Get a document subpoena from a prosecutor and you say im not doing it. What happens next . Yeah, so, i mean, its kind of a ridiculous strategy that nunberg is pursuing here. To katy turs credit, she found the one guy who is more unhinged than donald trump. But this is an unhinged strategy. He said im not going to show up on friday. Im not going to give the documents. Muellers next move will be a motion to compel and ask a judge to order the documents and order him to appear. And that standard is very locw. Mueller is certainly going to win it, and he almost certainly has to bring such a motion. He cant just let this go because that sends a terrible signal to other witnesses. What do you make of what you saw today . Have you ever encountered Something Like that. I have. You have . Oh, yeah. When i was a prosecutor i had a witness in the grand jury. I asked him one question. Do you know Frank Sinatra . He refused to answer. Well, that seems like a big red flag. Sure. I gave him an immunity order. I asked him do you know Frank Sinatra. He refused to answer. I took him before the judge, and he spent the next 18 months in prison under a contempt order. Did you ever find fought he knew Frank Sinatra. Oh, i knew he knew Frank Sinatra. There you go. But he could have at any point in time in those 18 months come out and testified, and he would have been out of prison. The 18 months is the life of the grand jury. Whats interesting here is weve got a special grand jury for the special counsel. Its very likely this grand jury could get extended beyond 18 months. So hes really nunberg is playing with fire. He could wind up in jail for three years if he refuses to produce his documents and refuses to go to the grand jury. Let me ask you this, neil. The questions that were were getting a lot of stories about the questions that mueller is asking. The reason were getting those stories, as best i can tell, the Mueller Operation doesnt leak. But he has interviewed a lot of people. And the people who are being interview ready talking to reporters about what theyre being questioned. Nunberg seemed spooked. Other people seemed spooked. Other people seem to think theyre being asked questions by investigators and investigators already have the answers to. Is that a reasonable assumption . Well, i do think its reasonable. I do think what were learning is that mueller is investigating exactly what his mandate was, which is what happened with russia in the election. And part of that has to do with the trump businesses and other stuff that happened back then. I mean, i think the other thing about this is we shouldnt be after all surprised that nunberg all of the sudden is refusing to cooperate. I mean, that is what trump has been nodding and winking and suggesting that everyone should do. He has attacked the fbi. Right hi, has attacked Law Enforcement. He has attacked mueller. He has attacked the Justice Department. And those are all these guys. He appointed them all with the exception of mueller. Mueller is supervised by all of them. He is attacking them. Its not surprising that nunberg is following that lead. And thing saul about ultimately laying the groundwork for when trump refuses to comply with subpoenas. And then it looks like, well, other people have failed to comply too. So its just part of that whole thing. Yeah, but i think the lesson learned, thats going to be learned here is that if you dont comply, youre going wind up in prison. Thats exactly whats going to happen to him. The only power that our federal courts have is the contempt power. If they didnt have that, it would no one would ever testify about anything. No one would ever testify. No one would ever show up to court. You have to have that power. And particularly in an investigation like this you have to have the ability to hold somebody in contempt if they snub their noses at the court. I could not agree more. And i do think maybe the most important thing about this is not just the Mueller Investigation, but what signal this has sent and all these trump attacks on Law Enforcement to all the other investigations which have nothing to do with mueller across the country. I mean, if trump cant trust his own people in the fbi, his own Justice Department, how are ordinary citizens going to come forward . And Law Enforcement depends on voluntary cooperation and people coming forward and complying with subpoenas and all sorts of things. If trumps own former campaign folks arent complying and saying things like oh, i dont have to show up on friday, you know, just imagine what signal is sent to citizens across this country. Thats why president s dont do the kind of attacks that President Trump has done on Law Enforcement. And i must say, katy tur set up all of the facts here. The prosecutor can go in with that interview and show, number one, he simply doesnt want to comply, which is not an excuse. And two, that he has lots of evidence and lots of emails on bannon and roger stone. He seemed to draw a giant red arrow to precisely what was most incriminating. Well, i started going through my emails and i thought well, i dont want to comply. What are you going to do . His excuses, it would take him 80 hours as opposed to the next 18 months that he has to spend in jail. Neil, go ahead. I was going to say there are points in that interview with katy tur in which he sounded so incriminating to President Trump. Its very hard to follow. This is a guy who has more shifting stories than Stormy Daniels which is hard to do, but he has managed to do it. I dont know exactly, and i think we all dont know exactly what information he is referring to when he says muellers got the goods on trump. He suspects that there is something there. But, you know, its one marker in i think a long story thats going to unfold. The other thing about this is there is a lot of pressure being brought to bear on a lot of people right now. And youre seeing how people behave under that pressure in painful detail. Nick akerman, neil, thanks for your time tonight. There is a second steele dossier describing, get this, new claims of russian intervention alleging kremlin influence over trumps cabinet selection. That story in two minutes. There are two types of people in the world. Those who fear the future. And those who embrace it. The future is for the unafraid. Im all about my bed. This mattress is dangerously comfortable. When i get in, i literally say, ahh. Introducing the leesa mattress. A better place to sleep. The leesa mattress is designed to provide strong support, relieve pressure and optimize airflow to keep you cool. This bed hugs my body. Today is gonna be great. Read our reviews then try the leesa mattress in your own home. Get 100 dollars off, and Free Shipping too. Go to buyleesa. Com until sam nunberg gave his memorable performance all over cable news today, the biggest story in Politics Today came out of jane mayers new yorker profile of Christopher Steele. According to the he wrote another memo in which they talked circulating the kremlin had intervened to block trumps initial choice of secretary of state mitt romney. And that the kremlin through unspecified channels had asked trump to appoint someone who would be prepared to lift ukrainerelated sanctions and who would cooperate on security issues. The job ultimately went to rex tillerson, who had literally been awarded the order of friendship by Vladimir Putin himself. With me now republican strategist Steve Schmidt and adam davidson. Before we get to that story about the steele dossier and the way in which the Mueller Investigation is taking shape, im just curious your reaction watching a former associate of the president s doing doh what sam nunberg do what he has done all day on national television. Your mouth just hangs open. You cant believe these were the people who were in approximate positions to the president of the United States. Its just extraordinary. And this new yorker story today just in the depth of its reporting is extraordinary. Certainly the notion that the russians vetoed mitt romney as the secretary of state, and the story implies would have a veto whoever the president nominated in that. If thats true. And its an f. If thats true, certainly. Those are t