Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20170331 : co

Lasted a month. He was fired in midfebruary after lying about conversations he had with the Russian Ambassador. That coming weeks after acting attorney general sally yates had warned the white house that flynn was vulnerable to blackmail by the russian government because of the nature of those conversations and the falsehoods he used to describe them. Tonight after news broke that he offered to testify in exchange for immunity, flynns lawyer released a statement reading, in part, general flynn certainly has a story to tell, and he very much wants to tell it should the circumstances permit. He is now the target of unsubstantiated public demands by members of congress and other political critics that he be criminally investigated. No reasonable person who has the benefit of advice from counsel would submit to questioning in such a highly politicized witch hunt environment without assurances against unfair prosecution. Congressional officials have previously told nbc news there was no agreement yet on how and when to interview former Trump Associates, and that, at least in the Senate Committee, criminal immunity in exchange for testimony was not an option. Republican chairman richard burr was asked specifically about flynn just yesterday. Have you guys been in contact with Michael Flynn or, you know, representatives of Michael Flynn . I think its safe to say that we have had conversations with a lot of people, and you would think less of us if general flynn wasnt in that list. We should note here, of course, that requesting immunity does not mean youve necessarily done anything wrong. However, flynn himself had this to say on that very topic last year on meet the press. The very last thing that john podesta just said is no individual too big to jail. That should include people like hillary clinton. I mean five people around her have been given immunity, to include her former chief of staff. When you are given immunity, that means youve probably committed a crime. When youre given immunity, you probably committed a crime. For the latest on the investigation, im joined by Nbc News National Security reporter ken dill lanian. Ken, this seems like a big development. Huge development, chris. Theres a lot of possibilities here. You know, we know that mike flynn did not tell the truth about his conversations with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak to the Vice President. What we dont know is whether he was interviewed by the fbi, and what did he tell the fbi about those conversations. We also dont know what he listed on his form sf86 that he would have had to fill out to get a security clearance at the white house. And of course, you know, his lawyer filed on his behalf forms explaining that he was actually lobbying for turkish interests during the Election Campaign and the transition when he hadnt filed those forms as required. So there are a lot of potential openings here that the fbi would be interested in, chris. It seems to me that there are so many different threads in the parallel investigations, but flynn is at the center of all of them. All of this in some senses, you know, the way this story has played out, the biggest part of it, the thing that really set off this round of recriminations was the phone call to kislyak on sanctions day and deception, lies to the Vice President and to the public about the nature of those calls being about the sanctions themselves. Thats one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that that was ancillary, you know, that it was a deception but it wasnt necessarily related to collusion with russia, to people like roger stone seeming to know in advance that things were coming out in wikileaks. You know, we just dont know. It could be that mike flynn got in trouble on Something Else entirely, and now they want to know what he knows about other matters relating to did the Trump Campaign collude with russia . Theres so many questions, chris. Theres also something strange here, which is that the idea that hes sort of offered this deal up to the three different sort of entities that are doing investigations, the fbi, the house kercommittee, th Senate Committee. He hasnt had any takers. Is there anything to glean from that . When your lawyer says you have a story to tell, that sure seems like hes dangling something before somebody, right . It seems unlikely that the congressional committees would be willing to grant a witness immunity. That really can mess up a criminal investigation. Everyone knows that, and weve seen that in the past. Right. So theyre just not going to do that. So unfortunately, i guess that means were not going to hear his story in public for some time. Yeah, the story he has to tell will remain a mystery at least in the short term, although something tells me the way this is all going that we will eventually learn it. Ken, thank you. I think youre right. Thank you, chris. Im joined now by michael isikoff. I mean this seems big and partly because it has always seemed to be that flynn was the most exposed of all of these figures because hed been sloppy, and there was a lot of stuff hed done that seemed like really cornercutting. And also remember hes so central to so many aspects of this. I mean he was the National Security adviser to the Trump Campaign throughout all of last year. Right. Then hes sitting in on the classified tension briefings. What we didnt know then is that he also had this private lobbying business for the government of turkey. Thats actually one part of this that may explain what he fears his exposure is. Remember he only recently retroactively filed with the justice department. That he was a lets be clear. He was a secret Foreign Agent quite literally. Thats not a hyperbolic statement. He was a secret Foreign Agent during the period of the campaign up to election. Right. He had gone to moscow and been paid by rt in december of 2015. How much of that he disclosed, we still dont know. The pentagon says he did not get clearance to do that, possibly in violation of their protocols. Thats certainly one issue. So just one sort of hesitation about getting too excited about all this is that what he might be worried about are things that are not central to what the committees are looking at. No, but in some ways i think thats what makes him such an interesting figure, right . Because if hes exposed on other things, that is leverage. I mean ive, you know, covered criminal investigations and fbi investigations, and they dont care how they get you to talk. They just care to get you to talk. Right. So, look, i mean he could be the john dean of this case. Right. Or he could be the brian bag lee aknow. Remember thats the guy who got immunity on the clinton server investigation and led to nothing, right . I also have to note whatever has happened, we played that meet the press clip. I dont know if we have the rnc appearance by Michael Flynn cued up or not. But, you know, this was an individual who talked about as a spokesman the criminality, the scandalousness, the deception of the clintons. That was the central thing. I sat in that stadium in cleveland and watched him do it. If hypocrisy was the crime, there would be a lot of people in jail right now. Youre right. Look, on the other hand, it is very unlikely that the committees are going to grant him immunity, i wouldnt think, absent a really good proffer, and the primary game is with the fbi and the justice department. Of course. But, you know, so this actually could be quite the setback. We do need to hear flynns testimony. We do need to hear all the circumstances around kislyak if for no other reason, we want to know was he fatalking to the th president elect about the conversations he was having with the ambassador. Hes not the only one whose story we need to hear more about. Theres for principals in this, paul man afford who i imagine is quite lawyered up. Theres Michael Flynn, carter page who sat in there chair talking to me and roger stone who ive interviewed and you recently interviewed. I interviewed him today. I want to play a clip of that interview because thats not piece of this puzzle. Take a listen. Right. In early august, youre speaking to a Republican Party group, and you say this, and i think we have the clip. I actually have communicated with assange. I believe the next documents pertain to the clinton foundation, but theres no telling what the october surprise may be. Have you talked to Julian Assan Assange . Not directly, no. He just said communicated. Talked to and communicated are two different things. Did you Exchange Messages . No. Ive been very forth right about this. We had a mutual friend, and at some points i call him a back channel, a little showmanship there. Other places i refer to him as an intermediary and third i call him what he is, a friend of assange and a friend of mine. Who was your friend . Do you disclose your sources . Im not disclosing mine. You just said you were going to answer every question. Thats the one question did you you say that . Yes, i did, but that is probably the one question i would decline to answer. And that is the key question here, right . Right. Good if there was a back channel with Julian Assange with the hacked emails, who was the back channel . You know, this is a step back from where, you know he had pledged to be entirely forthcoming. Fully cooperate with the investigation, fully answer every question. He told me at the start of the interview he would answer every question. But then when i got to what is the key question, he didnt answer. He also said, by the way, in the same interview, he wont talk about his conversations with President Trump. Right. Which i think would be another part of any congressional inquiry. All right. Michaelis i cough, thank y michael isikoff. Senator, your reaction to this news. Well, this is as serious as it gets. I think its likely right that flynn wouldnt be crowing about his need to have immunity if there wasnt some fire underneath all of this smoke. It just speaks to our need to keep this process in the senate going along by partisan means. Many of us have been asking for a special committee, for a special prosecutor because we worry about the ability of a partisan process to stay bipartisan. But so far, both richard burr and mark warner have been committed to getting the truth. And clearly now more than ever, we know that flynn is a conduit to that truth. We need to get his testimony. We certainly arent going to give immunity for it. I dont believe the select committee will do that, but his story is one that has to come out one way or the other. I saw someone, a sort of liberal activist tweeting the following phrase earlier today. No probe, no robe. And it was a reference to the Gorsuch Nomination, basically the idea being that as all this plays out, in the absent of an independent commission or special prosecutor, that democrats shouldnt vote for a nominee to serve a lifetime appointment under the constitution by this president with this cloud of suspicion. Whats your feeling about that . Well, im going to vote no on gorsuch based on the merits. Id recommend that my colleagues make up their mind as to whether they think that gorsuch is going to be a qualified Supreme Court justice or not. But it certainly does compromise trumps ability to get anything done regardless of how democrats act. I would submit that part of the reason why the Health Care Bill fell apart is because when trump got involved, it frankly made it much less popular, right . How does a bill thats only been out there for 17 days get down to 17 approval . Well, its in part because his legitimacy has been harmed by this drip, drip, drip of connections to roirn. So i think its a question thats already out there regardless of how democrats act. Do you think that question of legitimacy and sometimes i cant tell the degree to which your colleagues on both sides, the house and the senate, that this is front of mind or back of mind. Particularly republicans like i just wonder whether your sense of your colleagues is this is pretty of front of mind for them, and theres a worry, right, that theyre kind of rolling the dice on a whole bunch of unknowns about what they know and dont know, or whether they think this is essentially the way that democrats viewed benghazi, essentially a witch hunt. So we meet as a Democratic Caucus every week and every single week we talk about the russian investigation. This is front of mind because to the extent there was coordination between this campaign and potentially the president himself and russia, that does call into question not just the legitimacy of this president but the legitimacy of our democracy. And part of the reason why we think we have to get to the bottom of this and fast is because if there is no accountability, then there is no end to russias potential manipulation of elections. It wont just be about president ial elections. It will be about Senate Elections and Congressional Elections as well. Any of us that try to take on russia will be subject to this kind of interference. So this is absolutely front of mind, and there is, i think in many of our minds and in republicans minds too, no comparison between this and benghazi. Remember, benghazi was a partisan endeavor from the beginning. This in the senate at least has been largely bipartisan. Senator chris murphy, thank you for your time tonight. Thank you. Still ahead, a member of the House Intelligence Committee reacts to the breaking news on Michael Flynn. But first the latest twist on who it was that gave chairman nunes his secret surveillance information. Two white house aides named and now implicated. That extraordinary story in just two minutes. vo what if this didnt have to happen . I didnt see it. vo what if we could go back . What if our car. Could stop itself . In iihs frontend crash prevention testing, nobody beats the subaru impreza. Not toyota. Not honda. Not ford. The allnew subaru impreza. More than a car, its a subaru. At crowne plaza we know Business Travel isnt just business. Theres this. a bit of this. Why not . Your hotel should make it easy to do all the things you do. Which is what we do. Crowne plaza. Were all business, mostly. singsong budget meeting. Sweet. If you compare last quarter. Its no wonder everything seems a little better with the creamy taste of philly, made with no artificial preservatives, flavours or dyes. We continue to follow tonights breaking news. The wall street journal reporting that former trump National Security adviser Michael Flynn has offered to be interviewed by investigators probing possible ties between the Trump Campaign and russia in exchange for immunity from prosecution. Much more on that shortly. We turn now to one of those three ongoing investigations into trump and russia, the one in the house, which today descended even further into farce. Youll recall that last wednesday, the republican leading that investigation, House Intelligence Committee chair devin nunes held a pair of rather strange press conferences in which he seemed to be trying to give President Trump cover for his unsubstantiated claim made in an earlymorning tweet to have been wiretapped by president obama. Nunes performance prompted trump that very evening to then declare, well, that he felt, quote, somewhat vindicated by nunes claims. Nunes had told reporters that during the transition period, u. S. Spy agencies had, quote, incidentally collected information about members of trumps Team Different from the president s claim, we should note citing classified documents as his source. We then learned that nunes, who had been a member of trumps transition team, had viewed those classified documents that served as the basis for his claim on the grounds of the white house itself. And today, the New York Times named names, reporting that a pair of white house officials played a role in providing nunes with the tension reports. The times story seems to confirm what many had suspected all along, that instead of investigating trump and his allies, nunes was effectively working with the white house to try to make the investigation go away. Now, the two leakers were identified as ezra cohenwatnick, the senior director for intelligence for the National Security council, and michael ellis, a lawyer who works on National Security issues at the White House Councils office. Ellis has, of course, a direct connection to nunes, having worked as general counsel. While cohenwatnick is an ally of steve bannon and Jared Kushner who politico reported successfully pressured the president himself to keep cohenwatnick at his position at the National Security council even when the nsa wanted to get rid of him. The times report came out shortly before White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer was sent out to brief reporters today. That briefing was delayed. When spicer finally emerge the, he told reporters the white house had quote, just recently set a letter to the leaders of the house and senate Russian Ambassador<\/a>. That coming weeks after acting attorney general sally yates had warned the white house that flynn was vulnerable to blackmail by the russian government because of the nature of those conversations and the falsehoods he used to describe them. Tonight after news broke that he offered to testify in exchange for immunity, flynns lawyer released a statement reading, in part, general flynn certainly has a story to tell, and he very much wants to tell it should the circumstances permit. He is now the target of unsubstantiated public demands by members of congress and other political critics that he be criminally investigated. No reasonable person who has the benefit of advice from counsel would submit to questioning in such a highly politicized witch hunt environment without assurances against unfair prosecution. Congressional officials have previously told nbc news there was no agreement yet on how and when to interview former Trump Associates<\/a>, and that, at least in the Senate Committee<\/a>, criminal immunity in exchange for testimony was not an option. Republican chairman richard burr was asked specifically about flynn just yesterday. Have you guys been in contact with Michael Flynn<\/a> or, you know, representatives of Michael Flynn<\/a> . I think its safe to say that we have had conversations with a lot of people, and you would think less of us if general flynn wasnt in that list. We should note here, of course, that requesting immunity does not mean youve necessarily done anything wrong. However, flynn himself had this to say on that very topic last year on meet the press. The very last thing that john podesta just said is no individual too big to jail. That should include people like hillary clinton. I mean five people around her have been given immunity, to include her former chief of staff. When you are given immunity, that means youve probably committed a crime. When youre given immunity, you probably committed a crime. For the latest on the investigation, im joined by Nbc News National Security<\/a> reporter ken dill lanian. Ken, this seems like a big development. Huge development, chris. Theres a lot of possibilities here. You know, we know that mike flynn did not tell the truth about his conversations with Russian Ambassador<\/a> Sergey Kislyak<\/a> to the Vice President<\/a>. What we dont know is whether he was interviewed by the fbi, and what did he tell the fbi about those conversations. We also dont know what he listed on his form sf86 that he would have had to fill out to get a security clearance at the white house. And of course, you know, his lawyer filed on his behalf forms explaining that he was actually lobbying for turkish interests during the Election Campaign<\/a> and the transition when he hadnt filed those forms as required. So there are a lot of potential openings here that the fbi would be interested in, chris. It seems to me that there are so many different threads in the parallel investigations, but flynn is at the center of all of them. All of this in some senses, you know, the way this story has played out, the biggest part of it, the thing that really set off this round of recriminations was the phone call to kislyak on sanctions day and deception, lies to the Vice President<\/a> and to the public about the nature of those calls being about the sanctions themselves. Thats one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that that was ancillary, you know, that it was a deception but it wasnt necessarily related to collusion with russia, to people like roger stone seeming to know in advance that things were coming out in wikileaks. You know, we just dont know. It could be that mike flynn got in trouble on Something Else<\/a> entirely, and now they want to know what he knows about other matters relating to did the Trump Campaign<\/a> collude with russia . Theres so many questions, chris. Theres also something strange here, which is that the idea that hes sort of offered this deal up to the three different sort of entities that are doing investigations, the fbi, the house kercommittee, th Senate Committee<\/a>. He hasnt had any takers. Is there anything to glean from that . When your lawyer says you have a story to tell, that sure seems like hes dangling something before somebody, right . It seems unlikely that the congressional committees would be willing to grant a witness immunity. That really can mess up a criminal investigation. Everyone knows that, and weve seen that in the past. Right. So theyre just not going to do that. So unfortunately, i guess that means were not going to hear his story in public for some time. Yeah, the story he has to tell will remain a mystery at least in the short term, although something tells me the way this is all going that we will eventually learn it. Ken, thank you. I think youre right. Thank you, chris. Im joined now by michael isikoff. I mean this seems big and partly because it has always seemed to be that flynn was the most exposed of all of these figures because hed been sloppy, and there was a lot of stuff hed done that seemed like really cornercutting. And also remember hes so central to so many aspects of this. I mean he was the National Security<\/a> adviser to the Trump Campaign<\/a> throughout all of last year. Right. Then hes sitting in on the classified tension briefings. What we didnt know then is that he also had this private lobbying business for the government of turkey. Thats actually one part of this that may explain what he fears his exposure is. Remember he only recently retroactively filed with the justice department. That he was a lets be clear. He was a secret Foreign Agent<\/a> quite literally. Thats not a hyperbolic statement. He was a secret Foreign Agent<\/a> during the period of the campaign up to election. Right. He had gone to moscow and been paid by rt in december of 2015. How much of that he disclosed, we still dont know. The pentagon says he did not get clearance to do that, possibly in violation of their protocols. Thats certainly one issue. So just one sort of hesitation about getting too excited about all this is that what he might be worried about are things that are not central to what the committees are looking at. No, but in some ways i think thats what makes him such an interesting figure, right . Because if hes exposed on other things, that is leverage. I mean ive, you know, covered criminal investigations and fbi investigations, and they dont care how they get you to talk. They just care to get you to talk. Right. So, look, i mean he could be the john dean of this case. Right. Or he could be the brian bag lee aknow. Remember thats the guy who got immunity on the clinton server investigation and led to nothing, right . I also have to note whatever has happened, we played that meet the press clip. I dont know if we have the rnc appearance by Michael Flynn<\/a> cued up or not. But, you know, this was an individual who talked about as a spokesman the criminality, the scandalousness, the deception of the clintons. That was the central thing. I sat in that stadium in cleveland and watched him do it. If hypocrisy was the crime, there would be a lot of people in jail right now. Youre right. Look, on the other hand, it is very unlikely that the committees are going to grant him immunity, i wouldnt think, absent a really good proffer, and the primary game is with the fbi and the justice department. Of course. But, you know, so this actually could be quite the setback. We do need to hear flynns testimony. We do need to hear all the circumstances around kislyak if for no other reason, we want to know was he fatalking to the th president elect about the conversations he was having with the ambassador. Hes not the only one whose story we need to hear more about. Theres for principals in this, paul man afford who i imagine is quite lawyered up. Theres Michael Flynn<\/a>, carter page who sat in there chair talking to me and roger stone who ive interviewed and you recently interviewed. I interviewed him today. I want to play a clip of that interview because thats not piece of this puzzle. Take a listen. Right. In early august, youre speaking to a Republican Party<\/a> group, and you say this, and i think we have the clip. I actually have communicated with assange. I believe the next documents pertain to the clinton foundation, but theres no telling what the october surprise may be. Have you talked to Julian Assan Assange<\/a> . Not directly, no. He just said communicated. Talked to and communicated are two different things. Did you Exchange Messages<\/a> . No. Ive been very forth right about this. We had a mutual friend, and at some points i call him a back channel, a little showmanship there. Other places i refer to him as an intermediary and third i call him what he is, a friend of assange and a friend of mine. Who was your friend . Do you disclose your sources . Im not disclosing mine. You just said you were going to answer every question. Thats the one question did you you say that . Yes, i did, but that is probably the one question i would decline to answer. And that is the key question here, right . Right. Good if there was a back channel with Julian Assange<\/a> with the hacked emails, who was the back channel . You know, this is a step back from where, you know he had pledged to be entirely forthcoming. Fully cooperate with the investigation, fully answer every question. He told me at the start of the interview he would answer every question. But then when i got to what is the key question, he didnt answer. He also said, by the way, in the same interview, he wont talk about his conversations with President Trump<\/a>. Right. Which i think would be another part of any congressional inquiry. All right. Michaelis i cough, thank y michael isikoff. Senator, your reaction to this news. Well, this is as serious as it gets. I think its likely right that flynn wouldnt be crowing about his need to have immunity if there wasnt some fire underneath all of this smoke. It just speaks to our need to keep this process in the senate going along by partisan means. Many of us have been asking for a special committee, for a special prosecutor because we worry about the ability of a partisan process to stay bipartisan. But so far, both richard burr and mark warner have been committed to getting the truth. And clearly now more than ever, we know that flynn is a conduit to that truth. We need to get his testimony. We certainly arent going to give immunity for it. I dont believe the select committee will do that, but his story is one that has to come out one way or the other. I saw someone, a sort of liberal activist tweeting the following phrase earlier today. No probe, no robe. And it was a reference to the Gorsuch Nomination<\/a>, basically the idea being that as all this plays out, in the absent of an independent commission or special prosecutor, that democrats shouldnt vote for a nominee to serve a lifetime appointment under the constitution by this president with this cloud of suspicion. Whats your feeling about that . Well, im going to vote no on gorsuch based on the merits. Id recommend that my colleagues make up their mind as to whether they think that gorsuch is going to be a qualified Supreme Court<\/a> justice or not. But it certainly does compromise trumps ability to get anything done regardless of how democrats act. I would submit that part of the reason why the Health Care Bill<\/a> fell apart is because when trump got involved, it frankly made it much less popular, right . How does a bill thats only been out there for 17 days get down to 17 approval . Well, its in part because his legitimacy has been harmed by this drip, drip, drip of connections to roirn. So i think its a question thats already out there regardless of how democrats act. Do you think that question of legitimacy and sometimes i cant tell the degree to which your colleagues on both sides, the house and the senate, that this is front of mind or back of mind. Particularly republicans like i just wonder whether your sense of your colleagues is this is pretty of front of mind for them, and theres a worry, right, that theyre kind of rolling the dice on a whole bunch of unknowns about what they know and dont know, or whether they think this is essentially the way that democrats viewed benghazi, essentially a witch hunt. So we meet as a Democratic Caucus<\/a> every week and every single week we talk about the russian investigation. This is front of mind because to the extent there was coordination between this campaign and potentially the president himself and russia, that does call into question not just the legitimacy of this president but the legitimacy of our democracy. And part of the reason why we think we have to get to the bottom of this and fast is because if there is no accountability, then there is no end to russias potential manipulation of elections. It wont just be about president ial elections. It will be about Senate Elections<\/a> and Congressional Elections<\/a> as well. Any of us that try to take on russia will be subject to this kind of interference. So this is absolutely front of mind, and there is, i think in many of our minds and in republicans minds too, no comparison between this and benghazi. Remember, benghazi was a partisan endeavor from the beginning. This in the senate at least has been largely bipartisan. Senator chris murphy, thank you for your time tonight. Thank you. Still ahead, a member of the House Intelligence Committee<\/a> reacts to the breaking news on Michael Flynn<\/a>. But first the latest twist on who it was that gave chairman nunes his secret surveillance information. Two white house aides named and now implicated. That extraordinary story in just two minutes. vo what if this didnt have to happen . I didnt see it. vo what if we could go back . What if our car. Could stop itself . In iihs frontend crash prevention testing, nobody beats the subaru impreza. Not toyota. Not honda. Not ford. The allnew subaru impreza. More than a car, its a subaru. At crowne plaza we know Business Travel<\/a> isnt just business. Theres this. a bit of this. Why not . Your hotel should make it easy to do all the things you do. Which is what we do. Crowne plaza. Were all business, mostly. singsong budget meeting. Sweet. If you compare last quarter. Its no wonder everything seems a little better with the creamy taste of philly, made with no artificial preservatives, flavours or dyes. We continue to follow tonights breaking news. The wall street journal reporting that former trump National Security<\/a> adviser Michael Flynn<\/a> has offered to be interviewed by investigators probing possible ties between the Trump Campaign<\/a> and russia in exchange for immunity from prosecution. Much more on that shortly. We turn now to one of those three ongoing investigations into trump and russia, the one in the house, which today descended even further into farce. Youll recall that last wednesday, the republican leading that investigation, House Intelligence Committee<\/a> chair devin nunes held a pair of rather strange press conferences in which he seemed to be trying to give President Trump<\/a> cover for his unsubstantiated claim made in an earlymorning tweet to have been wiretapped by president obama. Nunes performance prompted trump that very evening to then declare, well, that he felt, quote, somewhat vindicated by nunes claims. Nunes had told reporters that during the transition period, u. S. Spy agencies had, quote, incidentally collected information about members of trumps Team Different<\/a> from the president s claim, we should note citing classified documents as his source. We then learned that nunes, who had been a member of trumps transition team, had viewed those classified documents that served as the basis for his claim on the grounds of the white house itself. And today, the New York Times<\/a> named names, reporting that a pair of white house officials played a role in providing nunes with the tension reports. The times story seems to confirm what many had suspected all along, that instead of investigating trump and his allies, nunes was effectively working with the white house to try to make the investigation go away. Now, the two leakers were identified as ezra cohenwatnick, the senior director for intelligence for the National Security<\/a> council, and michael ellis, a lawyer who works on National Security<\/a> issues at the White House Councils<\/a> office. Ellis has, of course, a direct connection to nunes, having worked as general counsel. While cohenwatnick is an ally of steve bannon and Jared Kushner<\/a> who politico reported successfully pressured the president himself to keep cohenwatnick at his position at the National Security<\/a> council even when the nsa wanted to get rid of him. The times report came out shortly before White House Press<\/a> Secretary Sean Spicer<\/a> was sent out to brief reporters today. That briefing was delayed. When spicer finally emerge the, he told reporters the white house had quote, just recently set a letter to the leaders of the house and senate Intelligence Committee<\/a>s asking them to come to the white house to view classified documents. He then refused to answer questions about the times report. Sean, are you saying that the New York Times<\/a> report today is not im saying in order to comment on that story would be to validate certain things that im not at liberty to do. A source familiar with the matter tells all in that the democrat leading the house investigation, adam schiff, did not receive the letter spicer referenced until after the times story came out. At a press conference this afternoon, schiff suggested the National Security<\/a> Council Staff<\/a>ers would seem to have no legitimate reason to leak to nunes. If, in fact, the National Security<\/a> Council Staff<\/a> that discovered these materials reportedly in the ordinary course of business are the same National Security<\/a> staff that provided them to the chairman to be provided to the president , it raises a profound question why they were not directly provided to the white house by the National Security<\/a> staff. If that was designed to hide the origin of the materials, that raises profound questions about just what the white house is doing. Joining me now is republican political strategist rick wilson. Well, rick, i keep describing this as a farce, like a classic tootsie, mrs. Doubt fire, importance of being earnest farce. And every day it gets more farce cal. Look, chris, were at a moment right now where if you wrote this as a hollywood script, they would send it back and say this is too preposterous. This is too broadly drawn. These characters are too absurd, too over the top. Today were seeing thats never the case with this white house, and with nunes himself and this cast of characters that keeps expanding and expanding where, you know, the obstruction of justice follies is going to be the hit of the fall, i think. We should say i mean let me just take one second to remind people because we just went through the chain of events. I just want to remind people it was the president appeared to have raet a breitbart of a rant, accuses his predecessor of wiretapping in. In open hearings, the people who have a way of knowing say thats not true, including director james comey. Devin nunes says, surprise, i have a source who says it sort of is true. Not true but kind of truish. It then turns out his source is at the white house. The Washington Post<\/a> now reporting three figures at the white house who appear to have invited him over to essentially launder the information through nunes, to then reverse engineer some plausible basis for a ridiculous claim made by the president. This is you know, i picked up on the ellis situation over the weekend on saturday morning that there was a pretty strong indicator that he was one of the people that engineered it because of his long relationship with nunes. And cohen obviously was an interesting story because he had been saved for his job. Mcmaster wanted him gone. Im told pompeo wanted him gone. But he was saved on his job by appealing to kushner and bannon, who went to mcmaster and said, we want him to say. Mcmaster apparently said, no, hes out. They went to the president to go back. This is a stay behind agent left by mike flynn. He came there because of mike flynn. This is a guy who obviously is unsuited to be in the white house, and hes obviously there right now to filter intelligence material from the Intelligence Committee<\/a> through the National Security<\/a> council to give it to bannon and the rest of their team for political pushback. And nunes was their patsy in 24 whole affair. Clearly the next question is, okay, theres multiple people reporting these two individuals. Another individual is a lawyer at the nse. If it is these folks and sa pears to be, they werent just freelancing. Presumably someone said, go find something in the surveillance that the u. S. Takes, go find something to back up the claim and feed it to nunes. The question is who did that . Well, look, i think theres an obvious suspect in this, and thats steve bannon. Theres no one else who would have the sort of political will inside the white house to push this far against the law and the handling of National Security<\/a> information. Look, all of this is top secret sci material. None of it is something you go dredge around and read it for fun if youre a National Security<\/a> staffer. This is a directed program. This is obviously something that did not come from a couple of 30yearold guys acting entrepreneurially to try to help devin nunes in his brilliant investigation. This is something that came from much higher up, and i would really, really like to see these guys under the lights because weve got some questions now that obviously are pushing up against the fbi investigation, against the senate and house investigations. And this is a serious matter now. This is not just, you know, white house high jinx anymore. This is not just spin. This is something thats reached a whole new level. The point you make there, which is a key one, is to what other political ends are these folks in the white house accessing intelligence materials . For what other political purpose. This is why steve bannon should never have been put on the National Security<\/a> council. He is obviously acting purely from a political motivation. And, look, these guys are terrified of russia. They know this is now an existential threat to this administration. Theyve lot control of the media agenda. Trump cant just tweet some craziness every day and hope the subject will instantly change. Hes tried it several times now, and the magic has faded on that particular ability. So, you know, unless he posts a geraldostyle nude selfie, i think hes going to have this as the subject matter for the next few days. Thank you, rick. And on behalf of the viewers, thank you for putting that in our heads. Rick wilson, thanks for being with me tonight. Up next, the Senate Investigation<\/a> into whether anyone from team tmp tentially colluded with russia gets under way with shocking testimy from a former fbi agent. Part of the reason active measures have worked in this u. S. Election is because the commander in chief as used active measures at times against his opponents. Wanna get away . Now you can with southwest fares as low as 59 dollars oneway. Yes to low fares with nothing to hide. Thats transfarency. Were on the move. Hey rick, all good . Oh yeah, were good. Were good. Terminix. Defenders of home. This is not new for the rush nsz. Theyve done this for a long time across europe. But it was much more engaging this time in our election. Why now . I think this answer is very simple and is what is no one is really saying in this room, which is part of the reason active measures have worked in this u. S. Election is because the commander in chief has used russian active measures at time against his opponents. He claimed that the election could be rigged. That was the numberone theme pushed by rt sputnik news outllts all the way up until the election. Hes made claims of voter fraud, that president obama is not a citizen, that, you know, congressman cruz is not a citizen. So part of the reason active measures works, and it does today in terms of trump tower being wiretapped, is because they parrot the same lines. Clinton watts testified today before the senate Intelligence Committee<\/a> that regardless of whether there was actual coordination between Trump Associates<\/a> and russian actors, the president of the United States<\/a> himself play aid key role in the Russian Campaign<\/a> to spread disinformation and to undermine the election. Todays meeting was an open session focus session including the president s soninlaw and Senior Adviser<\/a> Jared Kushner<\/a>. Three sources with direct knowledge told nbc news the committee is turntly in talks to interview christopher steele. That of course would be the former British Intelligence<\/a> officer who compiled the unverified now infamous dossier alleging a conspiracy between the Trump Campaign<\/a> and russia. This all comes amid reports that Michael Flynn<\/a> offered to testify for the senate Intelligence Committee<\/a> in exchange for immunity. Well discuss that with a member of the House Intelligence Committee<\/a> just after this break. Like centurylinks Broadband Network<\/a> that gives 35,000 fans a cutting edge game experience. Or the network that keeps a leading hotel chains guests connected at work, and at play. Or the it platform that powers millions of ecards every day for one of the largest greeting card companies. Businesses count on communication, and communication counts on centurylink. Hi, im frank. I take movantik for oic, opioidinduced constipation. 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Download now. Given russians longstanding desire to cultivate relations with influential u. S. Persons, isnt the American Public<\/a> right to be concerned about mr. Flynns conduct, his failure to disclose that contact with the Russian Ambassador<\/a>, his attempts to cover it up, and what looks like the white houses attempts to sweep this under the rug . Dont we as the American People<\/a> deserve the right to know, and shouldnt our fbi investigate such claims . I cant comment. Fbi director james comey wouldnt answer any questions about former National Security<\/a> adviser Michael Flynn<\/a>s ties to russia at a House Intelligence Committee<\/a> hearing earlier this month. But it now appears we may get some answers from flynn himself shortly. Joining me now to discuss the breaking news about Michael Flynn<\/a>, all the latest in the investigation, House Intelligence Committee<\/a> member member eric swalwell. Good to have you hear, congressman. Nice to be here, chris. Your reaction to the flynn news. Well, innocent people dont ask for immunity, but thats not something im familiar with in our investigation. But, you know, fe has something to say and hes not worried about what he did, he should just come forward and testify in a public setting. Well, but innocent i mean innocent people can ask for immunity, right . Youre worried about perjury, or youre worried about the ways in which things you say could be used against you later on. If mean its not incriminating. I know youre a former prosecutor. We shouldnt seek perjury charges against people who, you know, innocently kind of screw up a timeline or what happened, you know. Its also an innocent thing to just kind of forget. But what we have here is a pattern of deceit with Michael Flynn<\/a>. Its not forgetfulness. What really concerns me is when you look at the number of individuals involved, you know, you can take the cunning, and you have paul manafort, who was, you know, Financial Transactions<\/a> with the russians. Then you have people its questionable whether they were unwitting participants helping russia. Michael flynn was the director of the Defense Intelligence<\/a> agency. He knew exactly what russias capabilities were and that they used financial entanglements to influence people. So to i paid by rt, russia today, that to me is very powerful evidence that he had a financial entanglement with a Broadcasting Service<\/a> connected to russias intelligence service. I want to talk about your chair, devin nunes. Have you come to the conclusion that i have and everyone else, which is that the president fired off these tweets and essentially someone in the white house said, we need to reverse engineer some plausible substance for this, accessed highly classified information and brought in devin nunes to show it to him to justify the tweets . Thats what it looks like. And the president , if you remember, also invited the House Intelligence Committee<\/a> to investigate his claims. So he asked us to make him a part of the investigation. Of course democrats and republicans agreed. So at that point for chairman nunes, that should have been a bright line that he should not have crossed to go to the white house. I want to play this clip of the president himself seeming to signal there that there would be some information coming out. Take a listen. Dont forget when i say wiretap, those words were in quotes. That really covers because wiretapping is pretty oldfashioned stuff. But that really covers surveillance and many other things. And nobody ever talks about the fact that it was in quotes, but thats a very important thing. But wiretap covers a lot of different things. I think youre going to find some very interesting items coming to the forefront over the next two weeks. Do you think the president ordered officials in his white house to go find information to substantiate his claim . Dont know yet. We need to find out. But that has a ring of familiarity. Roger stone, right . He also intimated that john podesta was about to spend his time in the barrel. That was long before anyone knew what he was talking about. Weeks later, russian hacked emails were used to put out John Podestas<\/a> emails. This is a pattern, chris. Can nunes last as chair . He shouldnt last as the lead erd of this investigation. I mean he has gone over to the white house after an open hearing, after the president invited our committee to investigate him, and he canceled the public hearing. I think that might have been something thats forgotten this week. We had a public hearing scheduled where sally yates, john brennan, and james clapper, and the continued progress that were supposed to show is not happening. So weve lost independence, edibility, and progress. He should step aside, soe c reclaim that. Quickly, is an appropriate thing to do for staffer in the nsc to access this kind of information and give it to the chair of the committee to sort of justify a president ial tweet . Only if youre sharing it with both parties. All right. Congressman eric swalwell, thanks for joining me. Appreciate it. Much more on tonights breaking news. Michael flynn is reportedly seeking immunity. Jeff merkley joins me next. Hey there, starting your search for the ri am used car . You got it. 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Some side effects can lead to dehydration, which may make existing kidney problems worse. With trulicity, i click to activate whats within me. If you want help improving your a1c and blood sugar numbers with a noninsulin option, click to activate your within. Ask your doctor about onceweekly trulicity. Big breaking news tonight from the wall street journal that Donald Trumps<\/a> former National Security<\/a> adviser, Michael Flynn<\/a>, has reportedly offered to testify in the trump russian investigations in exchange for immunity from prosecution. Joining me now is democratic senator jeff merkley of oregon, a member of the Senate Committee<\/a> on foreign relations. Nice to have you in the stud yoi. Good to be with you. Your reaction to the flynn news . Well, certainly this is not entirely unexpected given the landscape because flynn was involved in misleading the fbi over his conversation with the Russian Ambassador<\/a>. He didnt file his appropriate forms for representing turkey. He received funding from rt in russia, and thats a potential emoluments clause issue, and finally the potential he was involved in helping coordinate between the Trump Campaign<\/a> and the russians during the campaign. So thats a lot of stuff that if hes seeking immunity, as he himself has said on a previous occasion f youre seeking immunity, youre probably guilty of something. Im going to ask you the same question i asked your colleague, chris murphy, which is how are you conducting your day to day business with this lingering in the background . Well, its certainly a cloud over everything, and right now were facing with the Gorsuch Nomination<\/a> next week. Were saying that this should be postponed because we need to get to the bottom of the Trump Campaign<\/a>s involvement with the russians before this president is able to place somebody potentially on the Supreme Court<\/a> should the Senate Confirm<\/a> him. Are you going to filibuster gorsuch . Absolutely. 100 . Are you guys going to get to 40 . We are going to succeed in filibustering gorsuch. You think so . Yes. You can afford to lose, i guess eight, right . Eight senators in your caucus. Seven. Seven. Im sorry, seven. So there are people who say if you filibuster him now, youll blow up the nuclear option. You wont have a card to play for the next vacancy. Picture this. I pull out my sword and say, look, i can stop you. And you pull out your laser gun and say, i trump you. Well, no pun intended there. And i say, okay, you want me to throw down my sword now, but the next time we meet, youll still have your laser gun. So how is that possibly putting me in a better position . Right. So for the Senate Democrats<\/a> to say, were going to allow there to be a 54 court of conservatives who do not believe in the we, the people vision of the constitution is to set up a stage in which decision after decision on labor rights, on womens rights, on consumers, on every possible issue is on the wrong end of the spectrum. You guys had a 5050 vote. The rare 5050 vote today, and it was on an issue about repealing a rule that had stopped states from preventing planned parenthood from getting certain federal grants, right . Did i get that right . The republicans brought in mike pence to cast the tiebreaking vote there. This strikes me as one of these things that while all this is happening, right, thats sort of grinding on in the background. Yes. Absolutely. This was kind of an echo of the Health Care Debate<\/a> we anticipated having. We thought we were going to be debating the house bill which would throw 24 Million People<\/a> off health care, but instead were investigating this proposal that would sabotage health care for mostly lowincome american women. Its a very big deal with the republicans did today. The president has made noises about working with democrats. He seems to be picking some fights with members of his own party. If the president called you up to extend a hand to work on something, do you feel like you could trust him sufficiently to work on it with him . I would certainly sit down and hear him out as im sure most of my colleagues would as well. We want to solve problems, and if this president can find a place where he is willing to work with us on immigration, on infrastructure, on taxes, well carry on that conversation. Given the way hes conducted himself and the white house has conducted itself, can you take him at his word on anything . If he says to you, senator, yes, were going to do x, y, and z, can you trust that. It would simply come down to whats printed on the page in that final bill thats being presented because thats, i think the verbal promises are one thing. The reality is what you really negotiate in ink. Youre a proud hometown sports fan. Yes. Its a big time for you. Ducks are in the final four. I know youre going to be cheering them on tomorrow night. I wanted to make sure you were properly prepped. Senator jeff merkley, thank you very much. Much more on the Michael Flynn<\/a> news and what it means for trumps presidency next. Termites. Were on the move. Hey rick, all good . Oh yeah, were good. Were good. Terminix. Defenders of home. But when we brought our daughter home, that was it. Now i have nicoderm cq. The nicoderm cq patch with unique extended release Technology Helps<\/a> prevent your urge to smoke all day. Its the best thing that ever happened to me. Every great why needs a great how. We do not need a reckless president who believes she is above the law. [ chanting ] lock her up. Thats right. Thats right, lock her up. Im going to tell you what, its unbelievable. Michael flynn at the Republican National<\/a> convention in july. He of course went on to become President Trump<\/a>s National Security<\/a> adviser for a full month until he was fired for misleading the Vice President<\/a> about his conversations with the Russian Ambassador<\/a> to the United States<\/a>. Mike flynn is i asked for his resignation. I respectfully gave it. He is a man who there was a certain amount of information given to Vice President<\/a> pence, who is with us today. And i was not happy with the way that information was given. He didnt have to do that because what he did wasnt wrong. What he did in terms of the information. Mike was doing his job. He was calling countries and his counterparts. So it certainly would have been okay with me if he did it. I would have directed him to do it if i thought he wasnt doing it. I didnt direct him, but i would have directed him because thats his job. You follow all that . The latest on todays late breaking news, the white house in crisis next. Allergies with nasal congestion . Find fast relief behind the counter with claritind. [ upbeat music ] strut past that aisle for the allergy relief that starts working in as little as 30 minutes and contains the best oral decongestant. Live claritin clear, with claritind. When this guy got a flat tire in the middle of the night, so he got home safe. Yeah, my dad says our insurance doesnt have that. What . you can leave worry behind when liberty stands with you\u2122. Liberty mutual insurance. Im not a customer, but im calling about that credit scorecard. Give it. Sure its free for everyone. Oh well thats nice and checking your score wont hurt your credit. Oh im so proud of you. Well thank you. Free at at discover. 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Ready to let go of hep c . Ask your hep c specialist about harvoni. When are you given immunity, na means youve probably committed a crime. A central question. Whether that means he committed a crime. At least by his own logic. Joining me now, Jennifer Reuben<\/a> of the Washington Post<\/a>, christina greer, associate professor of political science. Christina i cant help but in all of this just go back to how that campaign was run. You know, the central message was that the swirling questions meant that she was guilty, that she was krumtd, she was deceitful. Hes up there chanting lock her up. Its pretty stunning to go back to that footage. Hes saying that all while knowing he has met with these individuals and taken money from these particular individuals. He said lock her up while he was a secret Foreign Agent<\/a> for the turkish government. That we know of. Thats just one of the things we know. Everything comes out, theres something that comes out every single day. So the audacity hes going to sit there and consistently talk about chanting lock her up, lock her up and talking about her credibility and how shes unthuft worthy knowing gl and well he might be looking at severe jail time if hes lucky. And the issue with trump is that trump has no loyalty to anyone except for trump. And so we are going to start seeing people jumping like rats on a ship because trump will make sure that he is okay. His money is okay. He doesnt care about these people. He doesnt know these people. Jennifer, i think that point by christina is such an important one when youre sort of thinking about all this. Really in a prisoners dilemma sense. In the game theory sense. It seems to me that no one has incentive to sort of take a hit for donald trump because hes not an individual who has sort of like deep networks of loyalty. Hes got his family around him. Hes shown the willingness, as christina said, to cut people loose whenever he needs to. Thats right, and this sort of artifice of power, of intimidation, of bullying is really nonsense. What is he going to do to you . He is not like vladimir putin. Youre not going to show up with a hole in the back of your head on the street one day. So he doesnt really have any power over these people. Youre right. Hes going to cut them loose. I think of those three aides who have now been uncovered. They didnt do that on their own. They didnt let congressman nunes into the white house just on a lark because they thought it was a good idea. They obviously had to have instruction from somebody. Hmm, who do you think in that white house is political enough, is devious enough, is sort of farlooking enough . Its got to be A Steve Bannon<\/a> type, right, in not the president himself. So those guys are not going to go to jail for these people. Those guys are not going to take a hit. Little by little, i think were going to chip away and get to more ask more truths. You know, there are a lot of people behaving very peculiarly for a bunch of people who claim that nothing they did was wrong. I just want to be clear here we dont have any evidence so far that any of the behavior by those individuals in the white house exposed them to criminal liability or exposure. They all have clearances. They accessed information for which they had clearances, it appears. I just want to be clear it may be inappropriate, but we have nothing to suggest at this point that there was a criminal infraction. But heres where trump and his allies are in trouble in the sense that lbj understood the rules. These are people who have never served in government. Thats a good point. They have no history of public service. Theyve never served in the military. Theyre just hanging out in d. C. So they dont understand how the way committees work. Lbj knew when he was cutting corners because he knew where the corners were because he had been there. Hed been a member of the house, of the senate. Hed been a Vice President<\/a> , hed been speaker. So he knew everything. So these people are just showing up, you know, like the beverly hill billys basically with execute cases at the white house, and there is no loyalty. We know that trump will tweet about anything, right . And then walk it back. But think about this with the Health Care Bill<\/a>, right . He tells his the members of his party if you dont vote for this bill, im going to make sure i go and primary you. The Koch Brothers<\/a> then say, if you do vote for this bill, were going to make sure we primary you. Who do you trust . Whats more credible . And this, jennifer, gets toed the president launching this tweet storm, calling out members of the freedom caucus. Basically saying, we have to fight the freedom caucus. You know, the problem it seems to me is what is his leverage over this caucus at this point, particularly when hes at 35 in Approval Ratings<\/a> . Its not like this guy has an abundance of allies. He cant afford to lose anyone, let alone three of these people. I think he is impulsive, irrational. Of course he needs these people, and these people just showed they have leverage over the president of the United States<\/a>. They were able to sink the Health Care Bill<\/a>. So what is he thinking . What is he going to do to these people . I think he is very irrationrati. These people are not ready for prime time. Look at the white house plot for example. Did they think it was not going to come out that he was led onto the white house grounds . Theres literally a system called waves that its recorded anybody who has been to the white house, they know who comes in and out of the white house because its the white house. So theres this amateurishness mixed with a complete disdain for any kind of democratic norms, any kind of responsibility. Youve got nunes lying to the cameras, lying to reporters. Youve got trump doing the same. So i think at this point, you know, theres no honor among thieves, and i think theyre all going to be turning on one another before this thing is out. The other thing is, you know, the most significant you know, watching the president threaten these members explicitly on twitter today, the point you made, you know, when you make a threat and you dont carry it out, thats a very dangerous thing in any situation because youve now given away your credibility. Right. And the president and the white house were threatening these members. Were going to have a vote whether you like it or not and youre going to have to be called on the carpet and then they backed off. Just from that basic sense, when donald trump offers a threat to you, at this point why are you taking him seriously. Right. But also two things. One, the only thing more dangerous than a noncredible threat is an insecure man who has power. Weve already seen that. Number two and were living that. Number two, hes made this threat with health care, and its completely bombed. Now were about to go into taxes because keep in mind repealing obamacare was of the utmost importance. It failed and now were going to walk away from it. Oh, okay. Thats a great strategy. Now were going to go with taxes and already as he says, you know, there are these things called factions. Maybe you should watch msnbc a little more because weve been talking about the factions in your party for quite some time. Its not like these factions went away. He still has moderate republicans, party faithfuls. Thats the point. You cant steam roll the actual divisions that are there for structural reasons through sheer force of personality because it is not an Atlantic City<\/a> casino deal. Thank you both. The news about Michael Flynn<\/a> broke just as i was sitting down to tape an interview with the daily show. Weve talked about and why my new book is called a colony and a nation. When i started reading, i was like i dont know what to expect. I dont know where this is going, but it is a fascinating argument that you make here. Why the title . The title comes from a sort of throw away line in a Richard Nixon<\/a> speech in 1968. This big law and order speech, right . At one point he says black citizens want the same as white citizens. They dont want to be a colony in a nation. I kept thinking about that phrase as i was doing reporting in ferguson and in west baltimore and just talking to people over and over, doing all this reporting in which people were experiencing their own government like an occupying force, like a colony. That full interview airs tonight on the daily show. Ill be back in new york next week for a book event. Tomorrow im off to chicago for a couple different events. Now, the last time i was in chicago was a month ago for our special town hall event on violence and the conditions in the south side of that city, the west side. We could barely scratch the surface of whats happening there, so were doing our best to stay on this story. Tomorrow night, a special report from our reporter, trymaine lee, on the cycle of violence and trauma, the importance of trauma in chicago. It is a shocking report. Well bring if to you here at 8 00 p. M. Tomorrow. The Rachel Maddow<\/a> show starts right now. Good evening, rachel. Good evening. Thanks for joining us for the next hour. We are following the breaking news tonight that the fired National Security<\/a> adviser, retired Lieutenant General<\/a> Michael Flynn<\/a> was fired after only 24 days on the job. Tonight he is asking for immunity from prosecution in exchange for his testimony in the trump russia scandal. General flynn has reportedly approached the congressional kis in both the house and the senate as well as the fbi. More on that point in a moment, and he has reportedly offered that he will testify to all three of those bodies, both investigate ory committees and the fbi as long as hes given personal immunity from criminal prosecution himself. Now, it is not known at this hour how the fbi or the Intelligence Committee<\/a>s will respond to this offer and this request from","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia801401.us.archive.org\/3\/items\/MSNBCW_20170331_000000_All_In_With_Chris_Hayes\/MSNBCW_20170331_000000_All_In_With_Chris_Hayes.thumbs\/MSNBCW_20170331_000000_All_In_With_Chris_Hayes_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240617T12:35:10+00:00"}