problem at the agency often times is that those guys don't know when to turn it off. "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. today at a time when congress is about to debate yet another military authorization against isis that would include but not be limited to further war in iraq, he came to a podium to announce he was running for president. jeb bush declared i am my own man. >> i love my brother, i love my dad. i actually love my mother as well. hope that's okay. and i admire their service to the nation and the difficult decisions that they had to make. but i'm my own man and my views are shaped by my own thinking and experiences. >> the problem with the sentence i am my own man is that like i am not a crook, it has a way of refuting itself which does not help he has announced his foreign policy advisors. as you see there, most of jeb bush's advisors draw from his brother's team. in other words, in large part, a throwback to those who helped bring about george w. bush's iraq war. even jeb bush himself was not immune to the pull of history where he meant to be talking about iran, he said iraq instead. >> the problem is perhaps best demonstrated by this administration's approach to iraq. we've had 35 years of experience -- excuse me iran. >> hate it when that happens. bush spoke of isis as a force grossly underestimated. >> president obama called isis the junior varsity four days after they took fallujah and when they comprised a fighting force of more than 200,000 battle tested men. >> 200,000 is itself a gross miss representation. 200,000 is an order of magnitude greater than the u.s. intelligence community's estimates. they pegged the fighting strength at between 20,000 and 31,500. it is a bizarre turn of history that the consequences of our last war in iraq have produced a new group of jihadists whose perceived threat is so large the country could end up scared enough into electing the brother of the man who brought us our first war with iraq. joining us is ron cole, author of "engaging the muslim world." your reaction to jeb bush's speech today? >> it just seemed not ready for prime time. he didn't have his figures right. his history was all wrong. he said that isil didn't exist a few years ago. it goes back to czar -- sar ka we since at least 2006. so it doesn't seem to me that he really as yet has a firm grasp of the details of this foreign policy. >> i was struck also by him talking about several consequences of the iraq war without talking about the iraq war as what produced them. he talks about iran's control over baghdad. isis and the threat it provokes. you ask yourself, how did all that come about. >> yeah. you know, in 2005, the saudi foreign minister came to new york and gave a wounded and puzzled speech. he said, why did the bush administration deliver iraq into the hands of iran. we fought the war for eight years to stop this kind of thing from happening and now they've just undone all of that. he has a particular point of view, there's something to what he said and it is puzzling as to why the bush administration did set things up so that iran gained the line's share of influence in iraq. >> he did acknowledge mistakes in iraq. take a listen. >> my brother's administration through the surge which was one of the most he row ik acts of success. it created a stability that when the new president came in he could have built onto create fragile but more stable situation that would have not allowed for the void to be filled. >> do you buy that? >> no, of course not. well, you know, the idea that by putting 30,000 extra troops into iraq and doing some counter insurgency bush turned the entire situation around, you know, that's a myth. and one of the reasons that violence subsided in late 2007 into 2008 was that under the nose of the surge soldiers, the u.s. actually disarmed the sunni arabs first and that allowed the shiite groups to go into these neighbors and ethnically cleanse the sunnis. they were chased out of baghdad probably in the hundreds of thousands. it is that dislocation and the advent of a shiite dominated baghdad that turned into the isil counter reaction. so no, no, you can't rewrite history that way. >> thank you very much. ward to the current u.s. campaign, spokeswoman marie harf recently said something that would seem to be obviously true. >> we're killing a lot of them and we're going to keep killing them. we cannot win this war by killing them. we cannot kill our way out of this war. we need to go after the root causes that leads people to join these groups. >> harf went onto discuss those root causes in greater detail. harf pointed to similar statements by then president george w. bush. >> we know this war will not be won by force of arms alone. we must defeat the terrorist on the battle field and we must also defeat them in the battle of ideas. >> we will challenge the poverty and hopelessness and lack of education and failed governments that too often allow conditions that terrorists can seize and try to turn to their advantage. >> and yet here's just a sampling of the fire storm harf's comment created over at fox news. >> stimulus, jobs program for terrorists, that will stop it. maybe we should give people free housing, terrorist housing and get them ferraris and obamacare. i've seen terrorists on tv that need dental work. >> marie harf is exhibit a for the comprehensive failure of the u.s. education system. >> if all these guys had perfect nuclear families and everything was going great and had a $75,000 a year job that would help or hurt. if you don't get the leadership and movement, it is totally without regard to your place in society and how much money is in your account. >> george w. bush could say similar thing, but he was actually going out there and leading the surge to defeat isis. >> just so we're clear on what the actual record is here. after 9/11, we declared war on afghanistan and iraq. u.s. military deaths totalled more than 4,400 people. the iraq war cost more than $815 billion. u.s. military deaths in afghanistan totalled more than 2,200 people. operations in afghanistan and other counter terror operations have cost an additional $686 billion. deaths on the iraq and afghanistan side are much harder to calculate. number in the hundreds of thousands for iraq and near 15,000 at least for afghanistan. and of course we haven't stopped there. including but not limited to u.s. drone strikes, united states has been involved in libya, somalia, yemen and pakistan. the new american foundation compiling data on killing covering the obama and bush administrations. they estimate that more than 800 people have been killed in u.s. air and drone strikes in yemen and more than 2,000 in pakistan. it seems like we've been doing an awful lot of killing our way out of this situation for an awfully long time. and what does the world look like having spent 14 years spending money risking our own troops lives and killing lots of people? afghanistan is a corrupt state. it's only marginally better in pakistan with the pakistani taliban remains strong. yemen has now become essentially a failed state. one that also happens to house the strongest al qaeda affiliate in the world. and isis, which is now the most monstrous terror threat since al qaeda. and has terrorized libya with ghastly recent beheadings there. insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result. at what point do we say that what the u.s. has been doing for 14 years is not working. former chief prosecutor, military commissions at guantanamo bay, and colonel, you were there in the midst of it. you saw the way the sort of initial structure of the war on terror developed and it's amazing to me that after 14 years the argument is we didn't do enough of it. does that scan to you? >> no, this has been a sad chapter in our nation's history that's gone on for far too long. you have the fox news crowd that acts on feeling and not on fact. this kind of thing plays well with appealing to feeling. we've wasted $5 billion at gun tan mow. you may have seen today, we've only had seven trials and one of those was david hicks. today, the appellate court overturned his conviction. >> is there some path forward to reduce the level of instability or threat that does not involve further military involvement in the region? >> yeah, i'm often a critic of marie harf, but i think her statement was entirely accurate. you know, we can't bomb our way to success in what's going on in that part of the world. certainly i think some military action is necessary to contain isis, but we've got to get to the root cause. these groups don't just sprout up. there's a root that gives them the -- facilitates their development. primarily our allies and other countries that have been more than happy to facilitate these proxy wars and this one's gotten out of control. we've got to get our allies to stop fostering this type of proxy movement. we've got to give people an alternative that looks better than putting on a suicide vest and blowing yourselves up. >> there's also so little soul searching about libya. here was an example of coordinated coalition nato bombing, u.s. precipitation in that. and here we are, it was hailed at the time as a victory. here we are with the horrific images of ethnic cleansing by isis and no one's saying maybe dropping bombs on libya wasn't the success we thought it was. >> yeah, there's certainly been many, particularly with the drone problem. for everyone bad guy we kill, we make ten more. people that were on the sidelines that weren't militant, you know, when you kill their brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers, many of them decide to join up with the other side. so, you know, again, we're not going to bomb our way so success in this venture. you're talking about problems that date back, you know, century -- many, many centuries ago and we're not going to solve that by killing our way out of it. you know, again, i think marie's right. this is a multi-faceted problem that's going to take a multi-faceted approach that takes getting the powers in the region to stop playing these proxy games. >> thank you very much. all right. bill o'reilly and the leader of isis agree on one thing. i'll tell you what that is ahead. >> plus, a preview of my interview with the only person that ever went to prison for the cia's torture program. stay tuned for that. man (sternly): where do you think you're going? mr. mucus: to work, with you. it's taco tuesday. man: you're not coming. i took mucinex to help get rid of my mucusy congestion. i'm good all day. [announcer:] mucinex keeps working. not 4, not 6 as this country goes through what feels to me like a retrenchment, a story out of massachusetts seems em blematic of our current political move. they are reversing their decision to ban prospective iranian students from certain graduate programs. this comes after they said they were not going to admit iranian nationals citing legislation passed in 2012, the secretary of state shall deny a visa too and shall exclude any alien seeks to enter the u.s. in participate in course work at an institution of higher education to prepare for nuclear engineering or related field in iran. nbc news reports enforcement of that law has generally rested with the state department. generally, universities had depended on those agencies to weed out potential students seen as risks. umass said it was having trouble so it was just going to stop letting iranians in. there was widespread outcry including from students and professors at university stating discrimination. in a statement today, university of massachusetts said the policy reversal follows consultation with the state department and outside counsel. the self-proclaimed an bu bag daddy and fox host bill o'reilly are in agreement on one crucial point. >> the holy war begins. this is now a so-called holy war between radical jihadists and everybody else, including peaceful muslims. the holy war is here. and unfortunately it seems the president of the united states will be the last one to acknowledge it. >> i'll probably be after him, if he ever acknowledges it. fox news has been attacking the president for not attributing the horrors committed by radical islam fixating on the phrase. as you see in this tweet. >> why do you think he steadfastly refuses to acknowledge radical islam. >> isis itself calls itself the islamic state. they proudly pro claim this and obama denies it. >> at this point, it's pathological, it's clinical their inability and unwillingness to accurately describe things. >> we have an administration that will not even admit that there's a religious basis underlying what's going on. >> if the president's refusal got the folks at fox made, his obviously true statement that during the crusades people did bad things, that made them ap plek tick. >> he said christians were just as bad as isis was a couple centuriesing a. >> he's making excuses it seems for isis's behavior. >> then the next step was anger at the president. they referred to the egyptian coptic christians as egyptian citizens instead of calling them christians. >> the president could not even summon the moral courage to speak the truth. they're called christians, sir. and their heads were torn from their necks. >> we are now according to one of the most influential figures on the american right, we are in the holy war. that is of course exactly what isis wants. for if this is a holy war, they aren't some murderous cult. then they are the representatives of islam which is why the president at today's summit was so careful not to cast the fight in those terms. >> we must never accept the premise that they put forward. because it is a lie. nor should we grant these terrorists the religious legitimacy they seek. they are not religious leaders, they're terrorists. and we are not at war with islam. we are at war with people who have perverted islam. >> not just on fox news, but also to some extent on the battle field. western volunteers are now joining a christian militia in iraq. another who fights purportedly wears a vest em blazened with the words christ is lord. can you imagine anything isis wants more? feeds their claim they represent islam in a holy war against them, a narrative that radicals recruitment and to the very fire we are trying to snuff out. joining me, the council on american islamic relations. a holy war, does that make sense to you? >> no, it does not. thanks for having me. holy war is a christian concept. it does not apply to islam. holy war has been used in the 18th century. and i think those who do not know islam very well, they lack access to islamic terminology and they borrow from the christian history and terminology to apply it to islam. there is no such thing as -- as a holy war in islam because if you translate it back to the arabic language, it says -- i have never seen this, which muslims consider the revealed text from god. holy war is just a christian or western label being imposed on what some muslims do. >> let's just be clear here. the idea of fighting a war in the name of god, whether that is allah or jesus, that is something done throughout history. clearly isis thinks they are fighting a holy war. >> isis claims that they're fighting jihad or legitimate concept of islam. and it is very dangerous if we allow journalists or media outlets or politicians to give the legitimacy that isis is seeking from all of us if we call them jihadist or what they do jihad. it's a legitimate concept which is self-defense. it's like a foreign army invades the u.s., we all defend ourselves and have a standing army. however, what isis is doing is in violation of international norms, islamic practice and islamic rules of engagement. and that is called criminal and it is called terrorism. if we -- if we say the terrorism that isis is doing is jihad or they are jihadist, then we are doing pr work for isis and that is shooting ourselves in the foot. >> i understand -- we had graham wood on last night about what isis wants that talks about their own conception or religious group with carefully considered beliefs. this to me seems on important point here, not to say that isis represents anything like a mainstream variant of islam, but it also seems strange -- people -- the faith is sort of constituted by what people say they're doing, right? isis does claim they're waging jihad. i don't feel like i'm in a position to say whether they are or not. what they're doing is clearly ghastly. >> there's a popular saying, right? saying so doesn't make it so. so if isis claims to be jihadist and we know that they are criminals and terrorists, then we should not give them that legitimacy. it's like the west borrow baptist church. they think they have the only view and legitimate view and interpretation of christianity. most christians will disagree with them. the same way we disagree with isis. therefore we should not call them islamic. the problem i have with the piece of mr. wood, he said isis is not only islamic, it is very islamic. i believe that is giving them legitimacy and doing recruitment for isis which they don't deserve. gridlock on the west coast. >> in the 40 years i've been doing this, it's most unusual and devastating problem we've had with export shipping. >> this is pete period, yet the citrus pack house is sending about half as much as fruit as normal overseas. plus, oklahoma wants to ban advanced placement u.s. history. you won't believe what they want to replace it with ahead. i just want to show you this. this ship right here left china last month. it has been sitting here since february 9th. it cannot even get into the port. the one there behind it also left china last month. >> dozens of cargo ships in limbo off the west coast tonight and billions of dollars are at risk because of a contract dispute. negotiations had already jammed up 29 west coast ports for months with operators accusing the union of slow-down tactics. this all unloading and loading of ships came to a complete halt. port operators unwilling to pay overtime. work resumed yesterday, but the backlog will take weeks to clear. and with the union without a contract and deadlocked with port operators, there are fears of a total shutdown at the ports. which according to the national association of manufacturers can end up costing u.s. economy about $2 billion a day. that's because thousands of american businesses move products through those west coast ports. up to a dozen ships handle more than $1 billion worth of goods. and trucks haul off 40% of the nation's incoming container cargo each year. the rise of globalization helped make them the ports. which makes the union that works at those ports one of the last great organized labor power. even though the union's relatively small, it wields tremendous power. power it has leveraged to create good wages and benefits for its members and improve safety conditions in the complex and dangerous place in which its workers work. that's the enough to bring the secretary to the port operators and stress it is imperative the parties come to an immediate agreement. all labor power ultimately flows from workers ability to strike, to withhold their labor. and the dock workers in l.a. are a stark reminder of what that looks like. and in america where powerful unions are indeed an endangered species, what we lost. so why pause to take a pill? and why stop what you're doing to find a bathroom? with cialis for daily use, you don't have to plan around either. it's the only daily tablet approved to treat erectile dysfunction so you can be ready anytime the moment is right. plus cialis treats the frustrating urinary symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently, day or night. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain as it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess. side effects may include headache, upset stomach, delayed backache or muscle ache. to avoid long-term injury, get medical help right away for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have any sudden decrease or loss in hearing or vision or any symptoms of an allergic reaction stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. why pause the moment? ask your doctor about cialis for daily use. for a free 30-tablet trial go to cialis.com this morning, had a chance to interview a former cia officer who is to date the only official served time in connection with the agency's torture program. he just got out of prison after pleading guilty to giving a name of a covert officer to a reporter making him the first ever to be convicted for leaking to the press. when he was at the cia, he was part of a team in pakistan, then believed to be a high-ranking member of al qaeda. he wasn't present when it happened. in a 2007 interview with abc, he became the first cia official to publicly confirm water boarding during interrogations. he told me what happened after he went public, how he ended up in prison and his reaction to the senatorture report. we're going to brick those to you over the next two nights. first tonight, the behind the scenes perspective on the culture of the cia starting with the agency's reaction to the attacks on september 11th, 2001. >> 9/11 really resulted in a terrible collective guilt. i remember policymakers at the time saying we shouldn't be pointing fingers. well, the truth is, this was a massive intelligence failure. and so we inside the cia felt that it was -- it was our fault. you know, we should have been able to find these guys overseas, we should have been able to disrupt the attack. we should have worked with the fbi which we famously different. >> how palpable is that? if i'm walking around languagely a week after 9/11, is it -- >> most people there in the building on 9/11 didn't leave for the first couple weeks. i slept under my desk for three days before somebody told me you really need to go home and take a shower. we even -- on the moving into the night of 9/11, you know, toward september 12th, we actually got bolt cutters and cut the lock off of the cafeteria door and stole all the food. it was a marriott contract. stole all the food and cooked it ourselves and placed on big tables in the hall so people could eat and not stop working and that went on for days. we ended up having to write a check for something like $15,000 for stealing all their food. most people didn't leave. if they left, it was only to take a shower and change clothes and come back. we felt like we had to make up for this terrible mistake we had made and show we could make some sort of progress against al qaeda. >> i had to ask him if he ask is a reliable narrator of history. >> before we go further, i've had some experience talking to spooks in my reporting career, and two things have struck me. one is, a lot of them seem a little crazy. and the other thing is you guys are trained paid liars. >> yes. >> why should i believe anything you're saying to me now? you literally professionally lied for decades. >> yeah, you're trained to lie. you lie, you cheat, you steal, you swindle, you trick people. that's the nape of the job. yes. problem at the agency often times is that those guys don't know when to turn it off. >> do you know when to turn it off? >> i hope i do. i think i do. one of the side effects of that kind of culture is that the agency has what is probably the highest divorce rate in all of the federal government and it's because you have officers who lie all day long and then go home and lie to their wives about their girlfriends or about what they're doing. and things fall apart. one senior officer who had retired and then come back as a trainer told me one time, you can lie all day, but never lie to your boss and never lie to your wife. getting back to your original point about people being cooky, a cai psychiatrist told me they're looking for people with what he called sociopathic tendencies. not associate paths, but people with sociopathic tendencies. people comfortable working in moral gray areas and comfortable lying and doing it with a smile. often times, sociopaths will slip through the cracks because they can very easily pass is polygraph exam. they have no conscience after all. sometimes you get people who really probably shouldn't be working there. >> he also had very interesting things to say about how the agency manages its relationship with the executive branch, including with president obama. he was no longer at the cia when president obama took office. >> historically democrats have entered the presidency, viewed as unfriendly to the c -- toward the cia or as just not really caring one way or the other. the cia as an organization has sought to bring those presidents into the fold. we sought with bill clinton when i was there. and we saw it in spades with barack obama. obama was seen as a potential enny. and virtually as soon as he took the oath of office, the agency brought him in, taught him the secrets, showed him what they could do and he became their biggest cheerleader. >> like you mean the way you would recruit a spy. >> sure. sure. the traditional way that you recruit a spy is to spot him, assess his vulnerablebilities, development him in terms of a relationship and then make the recruitment. what you do with a president is you convince the president that not only are you his best friend in government but you're going to help make his presidency and legacy and it's going to benefit him to have a close relationship with the cia starting with his morning intelligence briefing and going all the way through whatever covert programs happen to pop up. >> talk about an advantage over everyone else in government. you get the president every morning. >> every single morning you have a private meeting with the president. most members of the cabinet can't say that. >> we asked the cia for a response. they declined to comment. we'll bring you more of the interview tomorrow might. it is must see tv. don't miss it. i appeared on last call with carson daly this week where i said something to me that is all but self-evident. >> the single most important thing we face is the fact that we are heating the planet to a level that has never before been tried while also trying to have human civilization. that's a real big experiment to run with human beings live in realtime. it is the kind of challenge that a hundred years from now, people will look back and say how did they talk about anything else ever. like, didn't they understand they were sitting tied to train tracks with a train coming. >> as a somewhat hilarious testament, a number of the people on the right picked up that clip and pointed to it almost without comment as self-evidently ridiculous. you can expect a barrage of lovely people contacting you with strongly held views. our own friend chris hayes, and who has the unfortunate twitter handle was on the receiving hand of a lot of the twitter handles meant for me. you might find people that will agree with you, but i'm the fox 2 st. louis hayes. turns out there are some people on the internet whose strong beliefs aren't matched by equally strong googling skills. luckily you do not even need to google it because it is on our facebook page. and while you're there, go ahead and like us. introducing dance-all you want bladder leak protection. new always discreet underwear for sensitive bladders from always, the experts in feminine protection. only always discreet underwear has soft dual leakguard barriers to help stop leaks where they happen most. plus, always discreet has a discreet fit that hugs your curves. you barely feel it. new always discreet underwear. now bladder leaks can feel like no big deal. because, hey, pee happens. just tell us your budget and the "name your price" tool helps you find a whole range of coverages. no one else gives you options like that. [voice echoing] no one at all! no one at all! no one. wake up! [gasp] oh! you okay, buddy? i just had a dream that progressive had this thing called... the "name your price" tool... it isn't a dream is it? nope. sorry! you know that thing freaks me out. he can hear you. he didn't mean that, kevin. kevin: yes, he did! state of oklahoma took a step toward banning ap u.s. history this week. by a vote of 11 to 4, the state houses education committee voted monday to approve a ten-page bill authored by state representative dan fisher who wants to put an end to advanced placement history courses in the state by cutting funding for them. in lieu, he lists in his bill what he refers to as foundational and historical documents that should form the base level of academic content for all u.s. history courses offered in schools in the state. the documents listed and you'll find the ten commandments, three speeches by ronald reagan, and george w. bush's speech to the nation on 9/11. ever since the college board, the organization that developments the course revised the framt work for the u.s. ap history test. conservatives have been marching in lock step in their outrage. back in august, they denounced the newly designed des as a negative view of american history. a georgia state senator that calls for a return to the old the georgia legislation calls the new framework a radically revisionist view of american history which brings us back to oklahoma state rep dan fisher and some of the issues he has with the test. >> american free enterprise is a positive force. it's pretty much omitted and the oppression of the poor and the strong oppressing the weak is pretty much what it's about. what we are having here is a new emphasis on what is bad about america. >> spokesperson for the college board views things different, quote, the redesigned ap u.s. history course includes many inspiring examples of american exceptionalism and encourages a balanced, thoughtful and patriotic course. fisher's bill is now eligible to go to the full house floor for consideration where republicans have a huge majority. they also have a majority in the senate and governor's a republican. if oklahoma lawmakers continue to vote along party lines on this bill, they could literally rewrite history for thousands and thousands of students. we'll talk with people on both sides of the ap history culture war next. joining me now, democratic oklahoma state representative mcdaniel and jean robins. my understanding is you voted against this bill as it came out of committee. what's your objection to it? >> well, i support the college board and the ap classes. and so i was appalled that the vote came down the way it did. to think 11 people supported it caught me by surprise. and i was actually surprised that we had so many votes against. >> is there some sort of grass roots or widespread objection to the task from teach skpers principals, the folks works in the classroom with this material to the new ap history test? >> no. this was actually a response from representative fisher. we had two ap teachers who led the charge. it's the bigger picture of what's crossing the nation and some other states doing this piece of legislation to stop this particular ap history test. but in the state itself, we're had overwhelming support from the teachers. kids began tweeting and e-mailing their support for ap history. >> jean, you are associated with a group that has been leading the charge against this new test. oklahoma in the latest education week rankings, oklahoma came in 48 among 50 states. do you think this will help that if you take away u.s. ap history in oklahoma? >> well -- >> sorry. let jane answer that. >> i think it's misleading to say that the bill, as i understand it, abolishes ap history. i think what oklahoma is wanting to do, which other states are wanting as well, is to look for an alternative. the college board is an unelected unaccountable group and they have decided to transform the teaching of american history and in effect usurping state history standards. so i think oklahoma wants to look for alternatives and there are alternatives that may be developed down the line. >> well, there's alternatives in the bill. my understanding, though, is there's objections to things like for instance the use of the term white sprem supremecy to define the views of the founders. >> i think what you're finding here is they're objecting to the ap class itself. the syllabus and what's in the course. this is a critical thinking course. it's not teaching u.s. history. by the time kids get to take this course, they're preparing for college. it's actually a college-level course. so this is a critical thinking course using the benchmarks they've already learned about history throughout their 12 years in school. this isn't to learn about history occurred. it teaches kids to think about what they think brought these events about. the other thing i might adhere is the college board has been existence since 1900. they have a known reputation. what we would do if we went back and developed these by oklahoma standards which remove from the kids in our state the opportunity to take the tests that other kids they may see in college in other states have taken that class and gotten credit for. >> this is more than a process complaint and the way they go about this. this grew out of a substantive complaint of what the actual principles in american history, approach to the body of facts is. >> absolutely -- >> sorry, jane, please. >> this would not have become an issue if the college board had kept the ap course the way it has been for the last several decades which is a small five-page topical outline in which the teachers put in the content based on their state standards. the college board's ap course has been radically revised so that now the essential content will be written out in the framework and that is what the teachers are supposed to teach through the lens, the very leftist lens, the concepts and themes of this outline. so that's the problem. >> is it a leftist lens to say the founders believed in white supremecy? >> i would say that the way the framework phrases that is definitely a leftist lens. >> that's a matter of fact. most of the founders believed in white supremecy. >> what the framework suggests is the country was essentially founded on white supremecy and that that was the theme that began and then was followed through for hundreds of years in the country. that is what we object to because the country was founded on so much more than that. there were problems in the country, and no one has ever suggested sanitizing american history so that we don't talk about the problems. but we think the country was founded on a set of principles that was really revolutionary, radically revolutionary in the history of humanity. >> do you think the ten commandments are part of what it was founded on? >> the framework doesn't discuss the ten commandments. >> but dan fisher wants it included. >> the problem is -- this brings us back to the problem. the college board wants to dictate what -- >> sorry. thank you both for joining us tonight. sorry, we ran out of time. that is all for this evening. good evening chris. that was fascinating. >> it was something. >> well done. >> thanks for joining us this hour. this is a japanese cat. hello. he's a male cat. the variety of cat that he is i'm told is that he is a scottish fold cat. i don't know what that means. but he belongs to somebody in japan, not in scotland. his name is maru. he's the biggest freaking thing in the world on the internet. maru videos on youtube have been viewed more than 200 million times. maru the cat is not famous anywhere else in the world. he does not make talk show appearances or appear in movies. he's just online. but he is freaking huge online. he is the star of the show.